Omg ---> Fuel Prices!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[h0ughy]

this is getting way beyond a joke. Between the fuel going up to record levels, then food goes up then freight charges go up then - yes you guessed it - Astro products go up!!!!!

This year alone it will cost around $300 in fuel for me to attend Queensland Astrofest. Its not fair. In 2006 the cost per liter was around a dollar per litre, 2007 it was around a 1.30, now this year it will be around 1.65 per litre.

The impact on our already stretched astrodollars is immense!

only having a whinge..................

[madtuna]

I drive a diesil. My fuel bill is over $200 a week.

Odd concidering diesil used to be cheaper option, less refining, basically the scum off the bottom of the barrel

[mark3d]

i read today (crikey.com.au) that in 1998 oil was USD$10 per barrel ... today its USD$138

[Ian Robinson]

Better get your gear before you can't afford it , mind you , way things are going we'll have exchange rate parity with the US dollar before long , and maybe even the $ will be worth more than the US dollar (since the USA is in hock up to it's eyeballs to the oil jockies and the chinese) and they are spending money they don't have on senseless wars like it is going out of fashion.

So for us maybe the oil shock wont be so bad as it will be elsewhere. Worst comes to worst , it will just accelerate coal seam pyrolysis and gasification and coal seam gas to oil developments as these projects will become much more viable , and we've stacks of coal , we've also got stacks of gas.

[Ian Robinson]

Maybe you should do a deal with the local chippys and take their used cooking oil off them to filter and then run your diesal on it.

$200 per week is a lot of driving BTW.

Way things are goings , if fuel prices keep going the way they are going , there will likely be some people on low incomes and who live in the big cities who might be financially better off on the dole and staying home (and doing minimal driving) than commuting to work everyday.

[CoombellKid]

Boy at a round trip to town and any amenities of 50kms it going to make
rural life a lot harder.

regards,CS

[§AB]

It is pathetic and a disgrace. The prices are increasing at literally exponential rates. It seems the outragous high prices which caused mass anger of yesterday are the accepted norm today. That's how fast they're rising. I remember in 1998 that they were at 30 cents.

Like everything else, what's happening these days is beyond a joke.

[GrahamL]

A friend of my fathers Is paying 10 quid a gallon in the uk I believe
theres worse places to be filling up I guess.

I bike it into town if I need something small these days

[Bobj]

I suppose we are fortunate in that we have the fourth lowest fuel prices in the developed world.
Here is the latest price list, state by state, town by town:
http://www.exploroz.com/OntheRoad/FuelPrices/Default.aspx

[Zuts]

I just did a search of UK fuel prices, average for unleaded in the UK is 112 pence per litre. On the current exchange rate that is around 2.50AUD.

So we are pretty lucky, but unfortunately may get to UK prices soon :scared:

Paul

[xelasnave]

And the Government is still happy to tax the stuff :eyepop:... I reckon it would make more sense to not tax the means of production and focus the tax gathering at the "profit" end of things:shrug:.. why not do it this way:shrug::shrug:.

Does a recognition... that the big guys somehow only make a profit if they want to bump the share price and exercise a stock option... prevent the focus of taxing profit.

I am not sure of the taxes but I think it is 40 cents a litre excise and 10% GST.. so we have a tax on a tax..inequitable and cumbersome to profits I suggest.

Still I am OK Jack...I have my gear and although not flash am very happy to have anything at all...until the opperation effects (hernia last week) are over I wont be travelling or viewing I guess.

And the gear is now more affordable ..look at DLSR's ...I paid over 2k for a 300d and look what 1k will now get (or close to that figure)...
When I started the cheapest 16 inch I could source was $6000 and I noted a second hand one here on offer for $1500.. so you gotta look for the upside...
alex:):):)

[Ric]

More motorbikes are required, it costs me $27 a fortnight to run my bike and that's riding it everyday.

Cheers

[JethroB76]

Its all about conditioning the consumer; push the price up outrageously high, then when you drop the price back down to a lower (but higher than before the rise) price everyones happy and you can continue milking your cows, er customers. The supermarkets do it too

[cahullian]

The poms might have really high petrol prices but their cars a half the price we pay for ours here and they don't do a quater of the driving we need to do here in Australia. Sometines I need to travel to Sydney (160 km) and back to visit family or the in-laws, most europeans wouldn't drive that far to go on holiday. We produce most of our own petrol and gas and to be paying $1.65 and 75c for these things is criminal. I sold my car last month and am now getting fit cycling everywhere. Good thing the air for my tyres is free. (but I wonder for how much longer??)

Gazz

[rmcpb]

I wonder if one of these (http://www.segway.com/) could be adapted to pull a small trailer with spare batteries wired in and your astro gear :)

[JimmyH155]

Let's face it, guys. We are living beyond our means. Demand going up, supply going down:( 40 years ago I had a mini 848cc. It did 70mph on the motorway and took 4 people. Now we drive those disgraceful gas guzzling 3.8 and 4 litre jobs - not to mention trucks (sorry, 4WD) . The western world has got to realise - as one oil chief said - "Oil is too precious to burn" Back to horses and bikes I say:D

[GrahamL]

thats a bit cheaper paul ,,I think the old boy may of got his wires crossed .

[ving]

fit a family of 4 on a bike...

i drive 100km per day not including weekends. i spend $60-$70 per week on petrol including weekends. getting expensive on my meagre wages. i guess petrol prices have to rise to keep the fat cats happy tho...

[tornado33]

Now airlines are going to fly their planes slower to try and save fuel, as it is fares will probably go up again soon
Foward thinking governments would have us all running round on ultra cheap to run Lithium powered electric cars, that we recharge overnight using cheap Off peak electricity rates, and also save hugely on maintenence costs as all there is is batteries, an electric motor and a simple transmission to maintain.

Seeing car makers wont do it, if I was Rudd Id spend $5 billion of the surplus and build the biggest electric car and lithium battery manufacturing facility on Earth, and supply us, and the world with electric cars, the facility paying for itself in a decade or so.

[Ian Robinson]

Deisal at the local "Independent" at Windale = $1.78 per litre
ULP at the same place $1.58 per litre.

No I didn't buy any .... I was just driving past to get somewhere else and saw the price .... OUCH !!!!

I am glad my Pajero runs on ULP and I don't need to do much drving these days (been 3 weeks since I put any petrol in the tank and I've still nearly half a tank left).

My next 4X4 will have to be dual fuel I think.
Maybe this current oil shock will be enough to the people who have the say to actually start rolling out the hydrogen cycle in order to fuel motor vehicle so we can break from being held to ranson all the time by the big oil companies and the oil jockeys.

Might put on hold the next 4x4 fishing safari I think .... can't afford the fuel.

[skwinty]

Heard this on the radio this morning.
Farmers in America are replacing their tractors with mules for ploughing.
After this this announcer says, Thats nothing, our country is run by asses;)

[koputai]

No, they'd catch a train, Aussies wouldn't be seen dead on a train, trains are for poor people.
The reliance on cars is appalling, like the family in Western Sydney in the paper a few weeks ago. Four members of the same family household all work at the same place 20mins drive away. And they all drive there and back individually! Then they complain about petrol prices!
Don't forget, half the population is below average intelligence.

Cheers,
Jason.

[GeoffW1]

Petrol powered telescopes are in deep trouble:eyepop:

More seriously, a comparison of European fuel prices with a cost-of-living scale shows we may have a way to go yet, do you think?.

Cheers

[Ian Robinson]

Most of us don't live anywhere that there is a decent and efficient public transport system , and are compelled to live where we can afford to either rent or buy homes, this is also most often somewhere the public transport is either none-existant or hopeless. So we have no option but to use our car.

Not to mention trains are hopeless if you need get somewhere. The buses are not much better.

Here in Newcastle / Lake Macquarie the trains and buses are a hopeless anyway , been many many years since I caught a bus , and last time I took a train it took something like 6 hours to go from Fassifern to Central .... (was cheap ... but took way too long and was dambed uncomfortable too).

[jjjnettie]

LOLOL
Have you seen the price of horse feed lately?

Petroleum products should be used only by ambos, police and other emergency services.
We everyday drivers should be using electric cars, (or gas and bio-diesel powered vehicles.)
It's what it will come to in the end anyway.
All it takes is for one car manufacturer to bite the bullet and start putting out these types of cars in large numbers then they'll be sold at a reasonable price so that people can actually afford to buy them.

[Ian Robinson]

Biodeisal has ethical and moral implications , but if you talking hydrogen fueled vehicles , then that's what's needed ....

[CoombellKid]

And that will be the bench mark. I believe oil companies will increase the
price to the point where it really does start to efect their bottom line,
then they will plato off so to speak. I believe this is why we see different
prices for different countries. It's what the majority of people can afford,
in the end it's people in the low income bracket that will start to suffer...
they'll find themselves in positions where they cant afford a car. Wait until
you have to buy carbon credit in your rego it'll be another added cost to
running your car. Then when to high price green car comes onto the market
in real time most low income folks wont be able to afford them and will
be left paying through the nose on fosil fuels. The us and them, rich and
poor divide will move further apart. Public transport is a good thing but it
also has it's draw back... for one it's probably the biggest spreader of
influenza in Sydney.

regards,CS

[CoombellKid]

At the end of the day, if I can look through a scope at some other world,
star, galaxy, nebula, cluster...etc...etc... I can leave this world even just
for a moment. and think about the real things that should concern us... Is
there someone looking back at me, and if so do they like a cold beer : )
and back the Blues ; )

regards,CS

[CoombellKid]

I brought a 50kg bag of Lucerne chaff the other day for 59.00 :scared:

regards,CS

[Karls48]

"I brought a 50kg bag of Lucerne chaff the other day for 59.00 :scared:"

And that gives you only one horsepower. But seriously, with financial institutions in
troubles, price of fuels so high and low food stocks worldwide there are some troubled times ahead of us.

[norm]

Ditto there Rob. If people think they're going to hurt now, wait until the above kicks in. People may have 2nd thoughts about global warming when at the end of the day it hits them directly in the hip pocket. It suddenly won't be a trendy, conscience thing to do anymore.


I think so Karl. With wages not keeping up with inflation and the cost of everything going up, the Rudd government has certainly got a challenge on their hand.

Clear Skies
Norm

[Ian Robinson]

I saw a post on another board were a guy in Tx says he paid 89c / litre for Unleaded yesterday.

So how are we on world parity petrol prices exactly .... ???

I think it is about time the taxes on fuel were removed and the rich started paying their fair share of the tax burden , rather than those on lower incomes baring all of the pain.

We are all indirectly being taxed by the government everytime we put fuel in the tank, and it is those on lower income who this hirts the most.

[GTB_an_Owl]

time to put the welfare of the nation before the profits of the oil companies

keep OUR oil in australia


geoff

[GrahamL]

Chariots might be the go again soon .

[edwardsdj]

I just borrowed my Mum's Mazda 323 for the 260km round trip to go and pick my daughter up. My fiancee was out in my Celica.

The 323 has a 1.3 litre engine (as opposed to the 2.2 litre in the Celica). It was so economical and as it's a wagon, could fit heaps of astro-gear :) Quite pleasant to drive too.

I think my next car will have a very small engine and a hatch :) I would say fuel costs were about half of what I'm used to in this thing.

[Suzy_A]

Anyone that drives a SAV (Suburban Assault Vehicle) or a car that uses 100 year old technology (like all Holdens, Fords etc) and uses 10+ L/100 km only has themselves to blame.

I have been running my 15 year-old car on used cooking oil for about 8 years now. I get 5.6 L/100 km and I'm planning on buying a new car soon. I will be disappointed if I don't get at least 3.5 L/100 km. I'll probably be driving from Perth to Sydney later this year and I wonder if I'll be able to do it without stopping at a service station this time The last time I drove from Perth to Adelaide and back to Perth, I had to stop once at a service station to buy fuel.

[Ian Robinson]

I had one of them in the 1970s .... pretty basic (mine was the 323 1400cc stationwagon) , ran on the smell of an oily rag .

[Ian Robinson]

But I like my Pajero .... and I can't afford to replace it at present .... heck it's only
just run in (just nudging 300k on the odometer) and as far as I can tell the it's still pretty good mechanically and there is no rust (despite being 15 years old).
It suits my lifestyle and I need it's cargo capacity and off terrain capability.

I wanted to do a dual fuel conversion but my engine can't be converted (but the model the year later can ....).

I don't anticipate going back giving away 4x4 vehicles despite the cost of fuel , the next one will have to be factory fitted dual fuel though. (A Prado or new model Pajero again perhaps).

[acropolite]

HRH & I were planning another oddesey to Astrofest, but given the cost of fuel, we may not bother. We have a Prado 4WD for 2 reasons, we travel on rough gravel roads and have a boat to tow. Our car is economical being a diesel and returns averages under 10km/l (the best we have returned is 8.2/100Km, but with prices nudging $2 per litre for diesel, the fuel cost from Tassie is likeley to run to around 600-700 dollars. Then again if fuel gets even more expensive this may be the last affordable trip opportunity.:confuse3:

[Suzy_A]

Well then, if you want to drive a SAV, then cough up the money for the fuel and stop complaining.

By the way, you know what 'Pajero' means? Don't bother with Babel Fish http://au.babelfish.yahoo.com/?fr=avbbf-au as it is censored and won't tell you what the naughty words mean. You'll need a Spanish-English dictionary.

[tbentley]

I'd like to say I feel your pain....actually I'm quite glad that I can't.

Luckily work pays for all my fuel including private kilometres. If I had to pay for the work km's I'd be better off on the dole for sure.

We're paying around $1.90 for diesel here in Port Hedland (up to $2 in some other towns I visit) and I'm averaging around 1000km per week for work and private use. Getting only 7km per litre (it's a new Patrol still running in with lots of wind catching accessories) it's getting near $300 a week.


Of course the wife also has a car but it's a new Micra which has a fuel tank the size of one of my cylinders so that hardly hurts a bit. A tank lasts her about a month as everything is within about 15kms unless you're heading out of town for which we use the work car.

I feel sorry for the grey nomads who saved all their lives for their one big trip and now can't afford it because of the fuel price. Poor buggers.

[edwardsdj]

I just worked writing software in the petroleum industry for almost five years. A few observations:

1. The days of finding large fields have been over for a couple of decades;
2. The oil companies keep downgrading thier estimates of the oil recoverable from thier reserves (Shell by 30% a few years ago);
3. No major survey by Western oil companies has been done in Saudi since the 1950s - odds are they have far less than they would like to have us believe;
4. The discoveries that are being made are a huge technical challenge (like drilling in 5km of water); and
5. World demand continues to increase every day - particularly from the rapidly growing Chinese economy.

Put all of this together and petrol prices are only going to go up and at an accelerating rate.

How long did it take for petrol to go from 50c/L to $1/L? About a decade I would say.

How long from $1/L to $1.50/L? About six months.

How long from $2/L to $5/L? Probably only a couple of years - no matter how much spin the industry puts on it.

Unlike previous oil shocks which were caused by supply manipulation, it is simply legitimate market forces driving this. Voters are screaming for more roads to ease traffic congestion today. Very soon they will be alarmed at the poor state of the public transport system as we look around at empty roads.

Anyway, my two cents :)

Have fun,
Doug

[Ian Robinson]

I got quite a shock when I worked at the HBI plant when I saw the price people were paying for fuel in Hedland .... but everyone I met there was on big money too , including me , and I didn't have to pay for rent, electricity, aircon,rates , just food and petrol money ..... bloody hot there in summer too so aircon is essential in the home and in the car.

[GTB_an_Owl]

I went into a petrol station today and
Asked for five dollars worth of gas.
The attendant farted and gave me a receipt.

[jjjnettie]

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Gargoyle_Steve]

I'm as concerned about the rising price of fuel as the next man, in some cases more so as I DO like to take my thirsty 4WD away with a load of camping gear / astro equipment / me and my girl for a bush escape / country drive, etc.... HOWEVER I have to say for some time I have been MUCH more concerned about what happens when the fuel does actually get very expensive / very scarce, and I am NOT talking about all of us and our little cars, etc. Though not as affordable or accessible (yet) there ARE other options like hybrid/electric's, biodiesel or variations thereof, hydrogen fuel cells, eventually even solar, that are capable of being developed further and introduced on a widespread basis.


What has been bothering me for some time now, and I don't hear anyone in authority / government / etc making any plans or even talking about this, is what happens to OTHER modes of transport.

Now I know that what I'm talking about here is some way down the track, and please take all of this in the manner in which it is offered, ie a bit tongue in cheek ;) but with grains of serious concern on my part.


When there is no longer sufficient and affordable fuel to fill the fuel tanks of thirsty aircraft there ARE no current alternatives that I'm aware of - no solar planes (yes, I have seen the 'gliders', no they don't carry freight or hundreds of people). There are no steam powered planes, no "real" full sized electric planes, no nuclear planes (?).

Forget any overseas travel for business or holidays, forget fast international freight, for that matter forget travelling interstate for a 2 day seminar, weekend away in Adelaide, etc, unless you're already nearby & taking the horse and cart! Forget getting back to the motherland to see the family unless it's a 6-12 month sea journey. (Depending on your particular motherland of course.)

What about ships?? e use them for freight and travel (slow as they are), are we going to be able to fill a huge diesel powered ship to bring us our "essentials" from overseas? At least nuclear powered ships may be an option, I don't care to think about the increased risk posed by having tens of thousands of nuclear powered ships roaming the seas. Return to coal fired steam ships?? Probably, desperate people may do desperate things - until the coal runs out of course.

So - barring the widespread rise of nuclear powered freighters forget any imports from overseas unless delivered by sailing ship ("yes I can send you that eyepiece, expect it around August 2009"), forget any bulk imports at all for things we don't produce here in Australia - so forget almost all electronic gear (tv's, DVD players, computers, etc), forget most cars, forget any food imports, industrial imports, forget many things that you probably conside rto be "Essential" in yoru day to day life at present .... forget it unless you can wait for it, and pay for it, to arrive by sailing vessel.

Forget any new astro gear! :eyepop:


I'm saddened by the lack of funding that we see being put towards alternatives for our day to day vehicles, but what happens when the fuel REALLY runs out and we are once again here in Australia an isolated land mass far away from the rest of the world?

We need 2 things - real alternative fuel technologies, and increased and improved manufacturing within this country to help make us more "independent", at least before my 'mythical' fuel crunch really arrives.

Someone tell me I'm wrong, someone tell me that new alternatives are already in the development pipeline, and they will be ready before this happens.....

Someone....

:whistle:

[Ian Robinson]

Maybe international travel will become a thing of the past unless you are ultra wealthy , and any mass international travel will resort back to sea travel , perhaps by high speed ocean liners (no reason why this can't happen and it's certainly more fuel efficient to transport several thousand people at a time , or several hundred thousand tons of what ever by sea than by air.

Nor is there any real reason why the hydrogen cycle can't be rolled out over a very short period (under a decade) if the will and desire is there - it's Big Oil and car manufacturers who are dragging the chain on this. Ineffectual national governments of all complexions have a lot to answer for too.

No reason why ships can't use hydrogen as fuel , they are surrounded and float on rich source of the stuff.

[Gargoyle_Steve]

I agree entirely Ian, but if we are still using ships to carry cargo everywhere what is it that these freighters or the high speed ocean liners will be using as a fuel source?

When the fuel runs low and the price jumps astronomically (VERY deliberate pun ;)) who can afford to pay 5 times, 10 times, 50 times as much for freight on an item as what it costs us now to import by ship?

[Ian Robinson]

Well --- why not H2 from the water they are floating on.

Big ships could easily draw in sea water as they go along and extract hydrogen from the desalinated water . Hydrogen combustion has a nice energy density , and is also clean.

[Gargoyle_Steve]

That's the kind of thinking that should help find new alternatives, but between desalinating the water, extracting the gases (by electrolysis?) and separating them to combust the hydrogen is that an energy efficient process overall? Do you have any links or information about this, is anyone looking into it at present, are there any scaled versions in action? I'd love to see any further info or links you may have.

[Alchemy]

everything you say makes sense and is quite frankly scary..... collapse of world economies is the likely result as we have an economy that needs oil to run, and no readily viable alternatives exist in usable amounts.

im already paying 1000 dollars a month for fuel, free quotes are going to become a thing of the past as i have to travel to inspect a project.

[acropolite]

Govenments have been pandering to the oil companies (an other big businesses) for decades. It's not as though we didn't know this was coming. There will come a time, hopefully before it's too late, when Joe Average realises that both major parties simply represent 2 different flavours of the same greed and corruption and will vote in people who are prepared to take the necessary action to prepare us for a sustainable future. The oil companies have scuttled any development of cars run on renewables, now they wait with hands outstretched as supply exceeds demand and reap the benefits. The coal companies seem to be successfully drawing money from the Australian taxpayer while renewables get little support. There was an Australian inventor driving a hydrogen powered car in the late 60's btw.

[PCH]

If anyone has any doubt about this, think again. I read a book 20 years ago called "The Seven Sisters". It was about the way in which the world's top 7 oil companies (BP, Shell, Exxon etc) manipulate government policy. It was going on then, and there's no reason to suggest things will have changed.

Cheers,

[Ian Robinson]

I am not sure if anyone is considering using insitu H2 extraction to fuel large ships .... doubt it , unless fuel becomes a lot more expensive .

I know Linde build packet (off the shelf) H2 plants of a variety of sizes as H2 is widely used in many industries.

The energy density in high pressure H2 is more than adequate to have effective and efficient combustion plants (even on the micro scale as in cars).

[Ian Robinson]

Especially that middle eastern oil cartel (the Saudis and their cronnies), who manipulate supply in such a manner as to keep oil prices per barrel high , and who probably have pet speculators who bid the price of oil up too.
They are a bigger threat to the world (economically and stability) than terrorism and al Quaeda ever was or ever will be , even the whitehouse cowtows to them.

[edwardsdj]

The "dirty little secret" of hydrogren is that in while it can be extracted from the electrolysis of water, this requires a vast amount of engery. In practice it is extracted from natural gas.

[Nuri]

I believe the answer could be "Helium 3" (discovered by an Aussie in 1934 BTW!). It is rare on Earth but there is about 1 million tons of it on the Moon, which is apparently enough to power the entire Earth for a 1000 years via "Helium 3 Fusion", many times more potent than nuclear energy and also much cleaner. See this June,2000 article (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/helium3_000630.html) for more info. The recent spark of interest in missions to the Moon by USA (http://www.wired.com/science/space/news/2006/12/72276), China (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2006/06/china_goes_to_the_moon_for_helium_3 _by_2024.html) and others is no coincidence, especially since this interest has been dormant for 25 years!

[Ian Robinson]

Umm .... basic REDOX chemistry , no external power supply required to get H2 gas when you use the right catalyst.
Drop a bit of zinc into acid , hey presto , you get hydrogen generated.

ie
pure metal Cu(s) + 2HCl(aq) → CuCl2(aq) + H2(g)

Other ways shown here ; http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Hydrogen/

[Ian Robinson]

Fusion is decades away .... if ever, and will likely be extraordinarily expensive (perhaps not something may nations can afford).

[edwardsdj]

While there are many ways of producing hydrogen gas (it accumulates in lead-acid bateries for example) steam reforming of methane is at present the dominant mehtod of producing hydrogren on an industrial scale.

[Ian Robinson]

True , and that happens at high temperatures.

[mcross]

[QUOTE=edwardsdj;329248]I just worked writing software in the petroleum industry for almost five years. A few observations:

1. The days of finding large fields have been over for a couple of decades;
2. The oil companies keep downgrading thier estimates of the oil recoverable from thier reserves (Shell by 30% a few years ago);
3. No major survey by Western oil companies has been done in Saudi since the 1950s - odds are they have far less than they would like to have us believe;
4. The discoveries that are being made are a huge technical challenge (like drilling in 5km of water); and
5. World demand continues to increase every day - particularly from the rapidly growing Chinese economy.

You've hit the nail on the head. Read "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" by Thom Hartmann for more on this grim picture...

Still, I was watching the news a year or two ago when I heard George W. Bush say something like "I can see us driving (alternatively powered) cars in the not too distant future".

It was one of those things that often just slip by without you really noticing and I said to my wife, "What did he just say? This is G W Bush - Texas oil - teling us that we will be driving these cars in the "not too distant future"? What does he know that we don't know?"

Made me feel some people are sitting on technology that we don't know about? :shrug:

Cheers
Mark :)

[rat156]

Umm... basic chemistry, that's not a catalytic reaction, HCl and Copper are consumed, eventually you'll run out of one or the other.

As they say on Mythbusters, WARNING, science content!

And to most of the rest of you on the Hydrogen as a fuel. Basic science, there's no such thing as a free lunch, which means if you plan to use hydrogen as a fuel, electrolysis of water as a source of that hydrogen, then you must use at least the same amount of energy to split it as is produced by the recombination. In practice, it takes more energy to produce the Hydrogen than you get back because no process is 100% efficient.

Now for the good news. Hydrogen as a fuel source is an excellent option. Used in fuel cells to drive electrically powered vehicles makes sense. You can get the Hydrogen from electrolysis of water, but you need to use a free energy source (the Sun) to provide the Hydrogen. People are actively working on solar electrolysis and I think are getting close to a solution.

Cheers
Stuart

[Karls48]

In my opinion the energy crisis is by far more urgent issue then whole global warming craze (and also partial solution to global warming if its cause is human activity). As the price of crude climbs to and over $250 a barrel economical chaos will start spreading around the world. It will take some time for the markets to realise this because markets today are dictated by the super funds with worldwide combine strength worth of trillions of dollars. Those super funds do not give hoot (and it is not their charter) about economical viability of any sector of world economy. They simply shift their funds to the area of economy where they can make maximum profit for their investment. The inertia of those huge amounts of money will carry the worsening economy for few years. Eventually your super will be worthless in real therms. As it has been pointed out by other people, the governments of any domination are not going to address this looming problem until it will right upon us. Their main concern is how to win next election. This is a bad side of the democracy. The pressure political groups like Greenies do not offer viable solution to those problems because their alternative policies are dictated by the ideology instead of sound economic.[/font]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Australia is an indeed lucky country with its huge mineral resources, ability to produce enough food to sustain its small population and its stable political system. Present population is easy to mange by country governments as its temper is not volatile, not prone to rioting or revolutions (that may change with influx of the migrans with lesser tolerance to the unjust government policies). Australia got vast coal reserve able to provide all Australia’s energy needs for maybe next 200 to 300 years. Coal can be processed to petrol with technologies dating back to the Second World War. So far it looks like we got it made. But do we?
As the economic crisis spread around the world with its associated hunger and misery one or the other government with reach for age old solution - blame neighbouring country that may be doing marginally better, for all of your problems. And if that country embraces different religion – even better. One country invades other one, other countries will declare war because of defence treaties or simply because they feel threaten by imbalance of power. And before you blink there is Third World War. The casuality’s will run to the billions of people. In the way it will provide solution to the economical crisis for next hundred years or so. But at what costs?
Many of you will say that I’m totally wrong and I sincerely hope that I’m. Not for my own sake because by the time this scenario may happen I will be long time six foot under. But for shake of my kid. If in the year 2050 someone still alive will remember this tread, send me an email and tell me - you were so wrong you doomsday prophet. And I will lie in my grave contend and happy that mankind and my son got a future to look up to.

[Ian Robinson]

I know that it isn't (a catalytic reaction). Thanks anyway.

[fringe_dweller]

at what point/price a barrel does the shale oil fields/ and other non easy to extract oil become viable? and remember there are shi*loads of this stuff!! prolly more than the easy to extract stuff was in the first place, i seem to remember qld had some huge shale oil fields!? yeeehaaa!! texas tea - take a long time to run out of that stuff!
anyone noticed how cheap new motorbikes and scooters are getting!!, practically giving them away! dropping 1000's a year off new price! sure you'll have to eat bugs, but still mobile? if there were no 4WD's and cars on the road i would go back to bike's in a heartbeat - look forward to the day :)

[acropolite]

The NSW town of Glen Davis was famous for it's shale oil works (http://web.aanet.com.au/bayling/glendavis.html). One thing we need to remember here is that we are burning the reserves of fossil fuel, natures carbon storage.

Rather than pulling more of this stuff out of the ground we should be going head on in to renewables research.

One promising technology that has been trialled is bio-char (http://beyondzeroemissions.org/media/beyondnews), where organic material is heated (without oxygen therefore no C02 is produced) to extract volatile components which can be used as fuel.
Apparently the heat needed for this process can be obtained directly from solar and the by product after the extraction for fuel is simply charcoal which is quite stable and can be used to dramatically enhance the soil.

The south american indians used char (http://www.beyondzeroemissions.org/2008/03/07/johannes-lehmann-carbon-drawdown-bio-char-agri-char-terra-preta-de-indio)to improve fertility of their soils.

This is probably the most exciting development in renewables as the raw material can be anything from roadside weeds to forestry harvest leftovers which have up till now been burned releasing huge amounts of C02 in to the environment.

[rat156]

So why did you write that it was.?

Not to be too critical, and I certainly don't mean to offend, but it's stuff like this that causes problems with science. The proliferation of pseudo-science can be directly attributable to the poor communication of scientists.

As a scientist (Chemistry degree, Masters, still studying for that PhD), I try to correct anything I see which is blatantly wrong or misleading. Unfortunately for some people a little education means that they are an instant expert in the field. These fora are a perfect example, I have taken an astroimage, therefore I know everything there is to know about the subject (OK a slight exaggeration ;-)). So I get really pissed off when my chosen field is taken in vain.

I also have to apologise in advance as I'm in the US at the moment, and I'm a bit pissed off with their general attitude anyway, so sorry if I'm taking it out on you (it's cathartic, so I feel justified).

Cheers
Stuart

P.S. You wanna here the 'mercans scream about petrol prices as they approach $4/gallon!!!!!!

[fringe_dweller]

Thanks Phil, one would hope the technology of extraction has moved on since 1938! :) my point is that when that hypothetical economically viable price parity has been reached, oil prices will surely plateau for a very long time?
you might be pleased to read that i recently bought a pushbike (mountainbike) first pushy in 20 years, and boy have they progressed! hydraulic assisted dic brakes back and front, ect. ect. like floating on a cloud! just got to figure out how to avoid regular punctures, damn 3 corner jacks!
thats interesting stuff there too!! hope it happens!

funny thing is, our local fuel prices per litre have only just matched what i was paying in the UK nearly 20 years ago! :lol: i know, i know they have great public transport and all close together ect. but not if you lived in the scottish countryside, which i did, and drove 70ks a day to work and back!

boy sure gotta feel sorry for the people who live in outer suburbs and nearby countryside, I can hear the house prices dropping from here!? :wink2:

[xelasnave]

There was talk of a GST removal on petrol...what about if they dont go for that... a pensioner relief..no GST for them on fuel...
Wow is that a big help for Mr Swan..fix every
thing politically in one hit.
He was accused of leaving the poor pensioners out of the pie slicing and was seen nervously twitching when the opposition leader said he would cut excise...well send me a small something for thinking of the idea Mr Swan and call if you need any more help..
alex:):):)

[Ian Robinson]

That's fine .... I should have made the separation clearer , the two comments were two separate paragraphs ....

You are welcome to correct me ,or point out ambiguities or things that I might say they that are imprecise .... I don't mind , I wont ever be offended , heck I know I'm far from perfect and it's been a while since I did my BE in Chem Eng and my chemistry studies.

[Ian Robinson]

Would mean everyone on a pension card would have present it at the servostation to get the exemption - it should not just be age pensions , but all holders of healthcare cards and pensioner cards irrespective of age.

[xelasnave]

...

You should be on the committee to get this thing going.
alex:):):)

[Ian Robinson]

I'm game .... if I can telecommute I'm interested and want to help (I'm also concerned about discrimination against the long term unemployed , the mature age unemployed (who have skills) and discrimination against obese (because they happen to be fat and are not skinny) jobseekers and against disabled jobseekers ) , how do I join it ?

[xelasnave]

Write your experience and formal application on a $100 note and send it to me...
alex:):):)

[White Rabbit]

Get your cars converted to gas, I have 4lt car and it costs me about $35 for about 25km of city driving. Petrol would cost me about $70. It's also better for the environment.

[CoombellKid]

$35 for 25kms :scared::scared::scared: jeez boy!!! my 4lt ford will get me to Lismore and
back for around $20 and that's about 110kms and I pass through two towns.
Ok it's not Sydney, so I'm probably forgetting about the time you guys
spend just sitting in traffic.

I used to have to drive from Sandringham to Dee Why for work, now that
was a PITA... lets see the airport bottle neck then Harbour tunnel bottle
neck, then the dang Split Bridge bottle neck... and lordy help you if the
thing got jammed open, which it did occassionly. Now I live in the bush
on the north coast and if you see half a dozen cars on the 25km drive to
town, we call that gridlocked :lol:

I truly feel for you guys driving around Sydney, just glad I dont live there
anymore.

regards,CS

[Geoff45]

In India I have seen a family of 5 on a bike. Dad driving, kid in front of Dad, mum and another kid sitting sideways at the back and mum holding a baby--What's the problem?

[Dooghan]

I like to download and listen to the ABC: The Science Show each week. Over the past weeks they have had some stories about making hydrogen from algae and also water, aluminium and gallium. Really interesting. Here's the links

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2008/2224016.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2008/2243094.htm

[Deeno]

Forgot to include all the $$$$ on tolls for the privilege of driving on our third world road network:driving:

[casstony]

I read an article this morning indicating that oil speculation via futures markets has effectively stockpiled a quantity of oil similar to the increase in demand from China over the last five years. I guess that adds a few dollars to the price. It makes sense too - any asset class increasing in value will attract speculators. http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/

As can be seen from the table other commodities are attracting significant speculation too.

[GTB_an_Owl]

i would like to see the futures market banned

geoff

[casstony]

:lol: Me too.

Seems the financial industry is forever inventing convoluted ways of separating us plebes from our money.

[fringe_dweller]

dont see how that will get better seeing bitumen comes from crude oil :scared:



commie! :P :lol:

was reading a great post somewhere, this person said all our oil/petrol ect. comes from bass straight, except the 10% that is for bitumen, but prices are linked to world oil prices/singapore - we are virtually totally self sufficient besides the raw stuff for roads?

and someone said UK doesnt have oil? hello, north sea oil?

[xstream]

This put a smile on my face.

http://tinyurl.com/46mma8

[anthony2302749]

I don't whether I missed it but due to the spiraling cost of fuel, I am buying a bike and will start riding to work. One it will keep me fit something the wife will be pleased about, two I will save some money as I will be using the car less and third as I will be using the car less I will be paying less tax.

Down side is the Victorian State Govenment probably will start TOLLING the Bike Tracks and setting up Speed Camera to make up the short fall in Tax Revenue lost due to me not buying fuel:lol: