Observing vs Imaging

[Matty P]

Are you an Observer or an Imager?

Since I have started Astronomy, I have always been an observer squinting through an eyepiece peering deep into space. However, looking through an eyepiece didn't exactly do it for me so I decided to get my feet wet in astrophotography.

Now that I have caught the astrophotography bug, I spend most of my time imaging and staying up late. :)

I am interested to see what number of IIS members are observers or imagers.

:thumbsup:

[DaveGee]

I'm an observer who uses cameras. (and GPSs and VTIs and.....Eyepieces)
Which box would you like me to tick...? :shrug:

[snowyskiesau]

Definitely an observer.
While I would like to take pictures, i just don't have the patience for all the necessary image processing.

[CoombellKid]

I'm an observer, although I did venture into imaging I got bored with it. I
found most of the time I was sitting watching a scope do it's imaging thing
while I was either crashed or staring at a PC screen all night. I felt I was
missing out on the hunt so I packed the imaging thing in. So I'm the
hunter and gatherer type or is that the observe and log type : ) although
even logging I've been slack, maybe just a point and shoot type lol

regards,CS

[GrahamL]

Whats imaging?

[Matty P]

I'm an Imager, even though I started off observing. I spend most of my time imaging objects that you can't see through an eyepiece.

IMHO, I believe that imaging is much more rewarding than visual observing.

[Rodstar]

I leave the imaging to Hubble.

[wavelandscott]

I am a visual observer only...

[Rob_K]

At first I had real difficulty with this poll Matt, because I really enjoy both observing and imaging.

But then I thought, if I could only do one, which would it be?

No-brainer, I'm an observer! :D

Cheers -

[Matty P]

Hi Dave,

Tick the Observer box. :thumbsup:

[edwardsdj]

I said observer even though I enjoy imaging.

I find if I get too into imaging, my eyes lose their feel for visual observing. I look through the telescope visually and see nothing. This year's opposition of Saturn has been like that for me.

Maybe it's got a lot to do with intraverted/extraverted personality types? Imaging lets you easily share with others; observing is a much more personal experience.

Take care,
Doug

[Ian Robinson]

Mostly an observer , but I do some imaging too , usually if there is something special .

[gman]

If I said I like to watch, does that make me a voyeur of astronomic proportions?:whistle:

[Alchemy]

definately an imager, i read the enthusiasm of the observers and find it interesting, but the looking just doesnt work for me.....and the detail you get in images....the colour...... when was the last time you saw a mag 20 galaxy. plus you can hang it on the wall for a rainy day

apart from that my night vision is poor, genetics maybee.

Definately an imager!!!!!!!:)

[Robert_T]

these days the only time I'd put my eye up to a lens is to centre a planet in the field of view before flicking over the the camera...I much prefer looking at the image on the screen than squinting into a narrow bit of glas!

[CoombellKid]

Invest in a few XW's and a low powered nagler or two and change your world :D



regards,CS

[Matty P]

That is exactly what I do. :)

I spend about 10 - 15 seconds looking through the EP before I switch it over to the camera.

:thumbsup:

[vash]

I did visual for 2 years, seen just about everything I can with the dob, next logical step is to image.

now all I do is strive for that one perfect shot

[Outbackmanyep]

Visual observer mainly but when it comes to comets i do BOTH!

[leon]

Imager only, never peep through the EP, although I have tp confess I have once or twice in my life time, I like to record what is up the, rather than just looking at it.

Leon

[PCH]

Observing only so far for me guys - although I have to admit those fabulous colour shots (probably rather a plebian term for the countless hours of imaging and processing that goes into them - sorry !:P) are really appealing to me.

However, if I'm honest with myself, I'm not convinced I could spend the time both taking the "shots" and doing the processing that's required.

But then.... with the price of HEQ5s from Andrews at the moment, it might be worth having a play around ;)

Cheers,

[Matty P]

Just a question,

Does anyone observe visually with another scope while their other setup is imaging?

:shrug:

[Kevnool]

At least i can say i saw it......cheers Kev

[edwardsdj]

I often do this while imaging. It takes a lot of motivation to setup two scopes plus imaging gear though.

[Kokatha man]

Just starting to dip the toes into imaging waters, but I'd have to say that if Rob's choice of scenerios was all that was on the table, "either/or" - my visual obbing would win hands down.

I can allways look at topflight images that few people could attain, like the one of Io and Jupiter's surface detail in an IIS post today: these are out of bounds for any of the general public.

To me, it reminds me of that great Leunig cartoon of the guy watching the sunrise on tv with his back to the window with the real sunset view: a bit like saying, would you like to go on an adventure travel and actually be amongst the open air and witness it with your eyes, or would you prefer to ride in an enclosed box with a remote viewer recording the whole show, doing the processing yourself later to enjoy the "experience."

Now, none of this is any criticism of those that are imaging afficianadoes in any way: it's just the way I feel and the way I see it: I'm visceral in that regard, to me there's enough mediated stuff in this life, and not enough of the real thing in all sorts of ways.

Cheers, and nuffin against anyone else's preferences, Darryl....!

[DSO]

I disagree. I am purely an observer and find locating, seeing and sketching DSO's very rewarding. I have tried imaging and hated the fiddling about and the fact that I felt totally divorced from what I was observing.
Nah, give me a nice Dob, some TeleVue eyepieces and sketchpad/pencils and I am happy.:)

[bones]

At the moment, I'm an observer. Not being technically minded or experienced, the imaging side of it to me seems like getting out in deep water when I'm not a good swimmer. Looking at the imaging shots I see on IIS and other sites, it's definitely something I'd like to do one day but I've got to work my way into it. Not ready for it yet, but one day...one day.

[Matty P]

I actually thought that the voting would be fairly even.

Only 30 percent of the people who have voted are imagers. I thought that the percentage of imagers would be higher.

[AlexN]

Observer... Although I have started imaging here and there. (and have started the everlasting spending on imaging gear.. I intend to set up my 8" on a HEQ5/EQ6 and get a 16" truss... Best of both worlds... :)

[Hagar]

I observe my telescope and camera when ere I can.

[DaveGee]

Just to be awkward...

I have observed an asteroid occultation by setting up one scope (complete with a video camera and VTI) and leaving it to run unattended while I drove 12km up the road to set up another telescope to observe the same event, thereby observing two chords across the asteroid. (See Aust. S&T October 2005 page 74)

You could say I imaging with the unattended scope and eyeball observed with the second... :D So to answer your question... Yep! :thumbsup:

[Blue Skies]

This is the Observational forum after all! Perhaps you would get a different result if you posted this down in the imaging forums.

I voted observer, as I have not taken my astrophotogrpahy that seriously. But I'm starting to learn more about digital imaging and can see myself doing a bit more of it in the future, but more with an aim to capturing transient phenomena (all kinds) rather than just taking the coffee table shots. But someone's got to do that, otherwise we wouldn't have any pretty pictures to inspire us to go and see all this stuff, would we?

[Starkler]

I like to observe and then later compare what I have seen visually to images of the same objects I find online. ie I'm happy to let others do all the hard work whilst I prefer my astronomy to be relaxing :D

[iceman]

I think the voting is about right.. there's always far more visual observers than imagers when you go to a star party or observing night.

[Satchmo]

Why assume one or the other? I would like to think there are many well- rounded amateurs out there who do both.

[maksutover]

Long live the observers!!!

[iceman]

If it was a multi-select poll I would've selected both :)

[thunderchildobs]

Imaging.

It is so easy and comfortable.

The scope is outside in the cold and dew taking pictures for my super nova search, while I check the images in my warm, dry white light friendly bedroom watching Star Trek and reading IIS threads.

Imaged 210 galaxies in 5 hours last night.



Brendan

[Starkler]

Isnt that a bit like buying fish from a fish market and then saying you enjoyed the fishing trip? :shrug:

For me a big part of the observing experience is about being out under the stars:stargaze:

[Matty P]

:eyepop:

That is defintiely amazing, 210 galaxies in 5 hours!

:thumbsup:

[DSO]

To my way of thinking that is most of the magic of astronomy lost. But each to their own.:shrug:

[Omaroo]

I'm into imaging at the moment, but know that the visual bug will strike again soon.

I have two scopes set up on my G11 at the moment. C8 with DSLR attached, so that's out for visual. Megrez 80 with autoguider camera attached, so that's out for visual too.

I now plan to get a set of Losmandy side-by-side plates so that I can fit a third scope - the Tak 60, so at least I can see where I'm pointing the cameras (at higher mag than the finder) and can at least have a good look at what I'm imaging when I'm doing that. May not be a 12" view, but you can only carry so much weight.

Best of both worlds... :thumbsup:

[Ric]

I voted imager but I suppose it's about 80/20. I like to start off and finish up with some visual observing and have a few hours imaging in between.

Cheers

[Satchmo]

But *saw* none....;)

[AstralTraveller]

I've always been a visual observer. I think there is something special about seeing the actual photons that left object. It is more immediate and 'real' than viewing an image. I also used to enjoy the pleasure of the hunt - tracking down that mag 12 galaxy by starhopping - though at the moment I'm using a goto. I'll soon have a 25cm dobs going so I may get back into hunting the faint fuzzies.

When I started the equipment for photography was expensive, difficult to use and you were limited to film. Now it is relatively easy to get started and I have the equipment to dip my toe into imaging, so I'm thinking of trying.

[thunderchildobs]

I think your example is wrong. I am not hiring a fisherman to catch a fish and do the work for me and then claim the fish as my own. I do everything myself.

It is more like going on a fishing trip and having a choice of either a 3m tinnie or a 30m yacht. I have never been fishing, but I am sure I'll take the yacht as a more comfortable experience.



If you had my skies and visually looking at mag 11 - 15 galaxies you to would "see" none. The CCD lets me see objects that are well beyond my visual capabilites.

Brendan

[Satchmo]

I don't think thats quite correct. Choosing the yacht in your analogy is perhaps the equivelent of never leaving the dock, but watching a sailing trip after it hapenned on a video screen.

[DaveGee]

I'm a little uncomfortable with this thread/poll...thing.

IMHO It's like we are trying to separate ourselves into "camps".... based on whether one uses their own eyes or uses other means to observe.

Pretty soon there'll be a PushTO "V" GOTO debate... sheish.... This is probably the reason I have not voted .

Look!... there are visual observers, video observers, webcam observers, DSLR observers, CCD observers and..... The key word is "Observers". We observe the sky. Some take measurements, some make records of a particular region of the sky at a particular moment, some chase the most difficult or the faintest, or the coolest. Some simply wish to share their sky experience with others. The choice of photon collector is simply governed by the best method to achieve the desired result.

For me, I'm a video observer. I can utilise my camera's sensitivity and 25 frames per second attributes to determine when an occultation occurs, making it possible to give an event time to an accuracy of +/- 0.02 seconds. This can't be done visually which at best can only be relied on to +/- 0.1 seconds, and that is for a VERY experienced observer in prime conditions. This does NOT mean that visual observations of occultations is inferior and therefore are worth less than a video observation. The fact is ALL observations of an occultation event are valuable.

The point is that the choice of photon collector has nothing to do with declaration that one is an observer, or not.

thew, I feel now... :lol:

[mabsj2]

i an observer but i want to start imaging soon.

[Babalyon 5]

Im with DaveGee. This is an unnecessary pol in IMHO! I do and enjoy both, as well as help out at star parties with my society showing the sky to the mudbloods(non-astronomical type people)! LOL!:lol:
As to goto or pushto, sheesh!!!:rofl:

[Satchmo]

I would call that a scientific approach to the issue. I would still however divide visual observing from most other forms of `data colection' as you are intercepting original photons and comprehending them in real time. Put even a video screen in between and that feeling of direct connection with the object can be lost. This doesn't mean visual observing superior but at a philisophical and spititual level , in the moment, it can be incredibly compelling.

[AstralTraveller]

Dave, Dave, Dave

Calm down. There has been no bloodshed, we haven't even resorted to name calling. This thread has generated less heat than some 'Nagler vs Pentax' or 'Meade vs Celestron' debates, and certainly less than the 'Laser Ban' threads. There has been some valid points made in support of both preferences, that's all.

The only camps we need to divide into is on the observing field where imagers, necessarily, have illuminated screens and visual observers rightfully want to preserve their dark adaption. This is what has been happening at Bargo recently. Last Saturday one of the imagers (sorry I've forgotten your name) visited us several times while his camera and autoguider were doing there stuff and had a look through my scope. In hindsight, since he had experienced my 'live' photons I should have hit him for a copy of his images to look at on cloudy nights.

Sorry, but I think your comparison regarding the best method to observe grazes or occultations is flawed. Visual observing is about fun not science, and I believe the same is true of most (all?) amateur imaging. On the other hand asteroid occultations, lunar occultations, variable star observing, asteroid photometry, etc, are all forays into science and so one should aspire to the best possible equipment and technique. For that reason I would like to emulate your set up (but give me a year or two at least).

I'm glad you still accept the value of us imprecise visual observers and I hope to meet you on some dark, lonely country road somewhere between Goulburn and Collector on 12 June.

cheers, clear skies and clean, sharp light curves.
Dave

[DaveGee]

Agreed! Just gaze upon Saturn (for example) and feel the rush.

But that's not my point. We are observing if gazing through the optics or "imaging" through the optics, perhaps intending to make an animation to show movement that can't be fully appreciated any other way.

[DaveGee]

I'm cool! In fact if I was any cooler, I'd need a freezer suit.;)

Sure thing! And that's an open invitation to all observers, regardless of their choice of photon collector.:welcome: Why? Why, there is to be a lunar graze of chi Virginis on the 12th June and the place to be is by the side of a dark and lonely road between Goulburn and Collector, about 10:21UT (8:21pm) me thinks....

A 67% illuminated moon grazing past mag. 4 star, 17.2 degrees from the cusp. Surely a match made in heaven. You'd be mad to miss it! :thumbsup:

[JimmyH155]

I've done imaging on a small scale with my entry level Meade DSI. I got some good shots of M42, Eta, and Moon. But when I came to process them...Wow, I had to learn a new language. Convolution, grey scales, masking, red, green, blue, gamma, histogram etc., etc. Then found out I would need about $1500 just to get a monitor and a printer to print what I saw on the screen, I thought Aha back to visual:D With my lovely LB 12" there was no competition. So.... if you want a great 8" SCT all set to go either way, see my ad in telescope section:lol:;)
Photons rule OK!!

[astroAJ]

I'm to big a noob to use a camera:rofl:

[overlord]

Observing.

And I'll tell you why....

Astronomy is not a hobby, it is a hunt. My 8" dob is my elephant rifle. when i wheel it out at night, i want to HUNT down objects. With the ravenous bloodlust of a nineteenth century British Imperialist looking for diamonds up the Congo, i devour the star atlas, zero in on the feeding ground of my object with my finderscope, and then, to prevent its escape, I trap the sucker with the ALL-ENCOMPASSING erfle wide-view, before moving up to 100x for the kill.

I then devour it, absorbing the details, my eyes drinking the entirity of its photonic lifeblood, until, my prey drained and my apetite satisfied, I move on to other conquests.

THAT, is what astronomy is all about.

I think everyone will agree that imaging is ONLY for very serious people with big-ego telescopes who are simply too good for us lowly mortals with cheep dobs. :poke:

Thanks.

[DistroMan]

I'll admit to being an observer,but you missed one option on the poll.

Imager
Observer
Observer married to an Imager.

[Spanrz]

My view.

Always was and still am, an Observer.
However, some photo shots of certain items, just show these items in all their glory.

The key element here, is our eyes don't work like camera's in the sense to capture light and store it for a short period, like the camera does on a long exposure.
Our eye's don't capture the Milky Way in it's full glory (etc).

If our eyes did "long exposure" and captured the light, the poll would teeter a lot more, to the observing.

[DaveO]

I had to vote "imager", even though the only reason for doing so these days is to take photometric measurements. I only dabble in "pretty pictures". But there was no other options Matt!

[Paddy]

So many of you make such wonderful images available that I feel no need to make them myself.

[dugnsuz]

An imager who likes to observe the things I image!!!!!

Bought bigger and bigger telescopes over the years but never got the same thrill at the EP as seeing a coloured, detailed image present itself on the 3" LCD window of my DSLR!!!!

...and you can image process on the cloudy nights too!

Imaging and Observing - the Ying and Yang of Astronomy!?

[dugnsuz]

No Overlord I can't agree to that! I have tried to image on a budget so to speak - cheaper mount and shorter focal length/widefield work.
Admitedly the cost of my "basic" rig is much greater than the cost of a 12" Dob, but the new 16" kid on the block is starting to get close to the cost of a basic imaging rig!
I don't want to get into a debate as I think it's pointless - as long as we enjoy whatever we do then "alles gut"!!!!
And, I particularly enjoyed your passionate championing of the observer!
All the best
ps...Imaging Rules!!!!!!:lol::lol::lol:

[tnott]

I like looking at other peoples images but it is too much mucking around for me. Visual observing can be quicker and more convenient. Also there is something about seeing something in real time that just gets me excited.

Having a 16" scope and some naglers helps................:D








but even binos are good from a dark site.

[Domol]

Interesting vote result.....might have been a different result if the vote was under the astrophoto blog???

[Geoff45]

Does drawing count as imaging? One way to really improve observation skills is to draw an image of what you see through the eyepiece.

[Starkler]

After seeing superb images like the M8 image that was displayed on APOD, how can anyone else post up for the public an "average M8" without feeling seriously inadequate?

I would hate to have spent thousands and thousands of dollars only to be able to produce comparatively ho-hum results . It seems that it takes a hell of a lot of money AND skill to be able to do anything remotely as good as those posted by many top shelf imagers that have gone before.

Lets face it, top shelf images of almost any object you care to name are available online for anyone who wants to look for them. Its so much easier to let others do the hard work ;)

[coldspace]

I am the " Lazy man imager " :P I use a colour mallincam video system in suburbia to track down objects I can't see at the eyepiece, so I guess I am half way between visual and imaging. No polar alignment, no processing, colour images in just seconds on a LCD TV, beers in the other hand, what more could a bloke want:D!! on a more serious note, I love visual as well and don't have time or patience to do anything close to the excellent photo's produced by those here. I will just admire them when they are posted.

Matt.

[Matty P]

I have to disagree with you Geoff.

I know that not all of us have tens of thousands of dollars to spend on top grade imaging equipment but like most of us we have only very basic setups. Like me, I have got an 8” SCT on an EQ6 Pro that I use for imaging with a DSLR camera. Although it isn’t a 14” RC on a ParamountME with a top of the line CCD camera, I still think that it is a very capable low cost (when compared to the professional equipment) imaging setup.

A fellow IIS member Eric (Ezystyles) who comes to mind who has produced some amazing images that in my opinion, somewhat rivals some images that the top shelf astrophotographers have produced. I believe he uses a 10” newt on an EQ6 with a DSLR camera.

Although viewing some images that the best astrophotographers have produced is rather extraordinary and inspiring, I still believe that anyone with the devotion and passion for imaging, no matter what telescope or camera they have will create great images.

What I am trying to say is that you don’t need $50,000 worth of top grade equipment to produce great images.

Just my 2 cents. :thumbsup:

[coldspace]

I agree Matty P,
Also its the self satisfaction of doing it your self and getting a nice shot every now and again. I like to think its like golf, you go out for a round and been a fairly hopeless hacker when I get that odd par or birdie it makes you want to get out next time and do it again, same goes if you are having a nice night and things are going well and you get that great shot of some deep sky object or planet it makes it all worthwhile and makes you try and better it next time, I am no Tiger Woods but I still like golf, and I am no where near some of the top imaging guys but I still like getting images with my DSI and Mallincam. Having fun is the main game :).

Regards Matt.

[Starkler]

As long as you are actually having fun and not tearing out your hair due to equipment failure, poor tracking or forgetting to take off the lens cap :lol:
I guess it is a bit like golf :lol:

[coldspace]

And throwing your clubs into the water when you miss that shot:lol:
It is like golf :lol: when you think about it, never the equipment more user error.

Matt.

[Matty P]

Do you mean main game or main aim? :lol: :D

It is a lot like Golf but instead of chasing a small white ball around a course, you are trying to image them. ;)

[coldspace]

:rofl:

[Matty P]

Yes, it would most likely be different. In a way I was kind of expecting these results to be like this because after all it is in the Observing section.

:)

[AlexN]

voted observer a few months ago... Should now change my vote to imager, but cant.. However, I still enjoy both.

[ving]

both.... although if i had to pick.... observer maybe. :)

[Kevnool]

This is a great forum and this thread is great post to read ...ive read agreements and disagreements ...pros and cons about imaging and observing now if we in a pub and all intoxicated the place would expode wouldnt it ?
:poke::rockband::poke::drink: :astron: :camera: :argue:

Maybe not probably sit down and laugh it off :lol:...cheers Kev.

[ving]

actually... on second thoughts i think i am more of a photographer :P

[Matty P]

I think I should've included Imager/Observer as another voting option. :shrug: I'm pretty sure that would have change the results.

:thumbsup:

[NQLD_Newby]

I'm an observer, I think there is nothing like seeing it with your own eyes. but in saying that the images portrayed on this forum can be mesmorising to say the least.

[Kevnool]

No matter who you are or what you do its allways wrong in anothers eye.....but hey were all humans and thats life.

shhh ( whispers ) i still love observing.


Cheers..Kev.