NSW Govt has banned laser pointers TODAY.

[Ian Robinson]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/21/2222662.htm

:scared:

So I guess we better hide our laser collimators .... or get a probibited weapons permit (how do you go about getting one of them ???)

[Starless]

This is getting stupider by the day!

Just can't figure which bunch of
loonies are making large enough
donations to the party to illicit
this response.
:mad2:

[§AB]

Without a PROHIBITED weapon's permit??? So basically, we can't get the permits required for the lasers then. Or was Morris Idiotemma just being his usual numbnuts self when he concocted that statement?

[Omaroo]

I said it then, I'll say it now - it was a ship of fools who voted this idiotic team back in to ruin our state yet again at the last election. Iemma just has no idea how to police anything any more - so he just bans people from conducting their day-to-day business in favour of putting some effort into finding and stopping the real cause. BandAid politics. Brilliant! :rolleyes:

[Ian Robinson]

Just rang the local copshop and they couldn't tell me anything and had been told nothing.

Would be nice for the cops to have been informed beforehand one would think and for them to have appropriate paperwork in hand for anyone who wanted to apply for a permit.

How much do these permits cost ?

[leon]

I know I'm not a New South Welshman, but I'm sure Victoria will follow the sheep, so as far as I'm concerned they can get stuffed, I wont be applying for any permit.

Leon

[Ian Robinson]

Likely to go national .... remember its wall to wall Labor.

Tandy and Dick Smith and other electronics sellers will be removing laser diodes and laser pointers and other laser gadgets from their shelves pretty quickly I imagine in NSW.

I was zapped late one night by a laser straight into the eyes while driving down the F3 near Kangy Angy one night heading home from a square dance .... had to pull over very quickly and stop as I was badly dazzled .... the FW who zapped me could have killed me and my entire family !!! Scared the crap out of us !!! Good thing there were no big trees or light poles or culverts where I pulled over as I wouldn't have seen them.

I've also been zapped a few times while fishing on Stockton or Nobbys walls or the Newcastle or Stockton foreshore late at night too. Just an inconvenience that mucks up your eyes' night adaption , so no harm done then.

What makes these cretins tick ???

[§AB]

Anyone got a 50mw laser lying around so I can aim it into Morris Iemma's eye's - you know.. to improve his "vision"?

[Starless]

Likewise from SA, I reckon you are
dead right.

We should all adopt this approach.

I bet "A Current Affair" would love
a 4000 astronomers jailed for possesing
prohibited weapons story.

[Starless]

If only it were that easy.

[Ian Robinson]

Not funny .... 50mW into the eyes for even an instant if close enough would probably blind him permanently ....

[Garyh]

Now I would consider this much more dangerous than aiming any typical laser pointer at any commercial aircraft.
A lot of new planes basically land themselves and have a co-pilot.
When you are driving down the F3 and get blinded by one you are in big trouble!

Sad to see such stupid behavior by people...

Very sad as I wanted a nice laser pointer for my new scope...:mad2:
Dumb a@# pollies!

[Ian Robinson]

True , but alarming anyway ....

If I had ever found out who zapped me on the F3 , let's just say , it would not have been pretty , I reported the incident , a lot of good that did me.

[GrahamL]

Good .. I actually hate the things :)

[monoxide]

i don't think theres any real need for them as pointers anyway. plus unless you were planning on doing something silly with them or walking around with one in your pocket i don't think you have anything to worry about.

im not sure what the great attraction of laser pointers is anyway, with the wealth of other finders out there that keep you and your equipment a bit more discreet than a green beam pointing to the sky from your back yard.

[fringe_dweller]

lolmygutsout@the neocons who pretend a lib/nat govnmt would do any different, from memory they are evn worse, you couldnt even have a beard under one former country party state government - oooo thats priceless, aww come off we all knew this day was comin' , was just a matter of time, specially seeing how bloomin' powerful they are now, 500mw ect.

[fringe_dweller]

oops posted wrong thread

I seem to remember it was a lib/nat govnmt that banned most guns? and there was that time there federal counterparts were thinking of banning evolution

[rogerco]

My local bobbies didn't know anything either. They suggested the fire arms register Ph. 1300 362 562.

By the way its illegal to even have one, with up to fifteen years gaol.

This is not a joke. I have a neighbour who complains about everything. I don't want the cops comining round just because he puts in a complaint.

Its a pity the bloody government doesn't figure out a way of banning the ********** that do this stuff. They buggered up fireworks decades ago whats next?

[rjc_lakeside]

Actually, I believe that LASER pointers over 1mw have been on Victoria's prohibited weapons list for quite sometime now. So in that (non)sense we are the lemmings.

[rjc_lakeside]

Just don't use your car to run them down - otherwise cars may end up on the prohibited weapons list as well.:D

[§AB]

1. I'm aware of that
2. it is funny coz he's already blind. Not to mention an idiot with no vision for the state. Gotta love that do-nothing attitude. It's always easier to ban and to take away things from the good people. Hence frying his eyes could only improve his "vision"

[Terry B]

I don't use my (5mw) laser at home but do use it at our Astro society meeting to point things out to people before I show them through the scope. It is great as a teaching tool. The 5mw seems to be bright enough for this.

[EzyStyles]

hmm thats really bad news.. they certainly are getting tough on little things.

[robgreaves]

*sigh* - I moved from the UK to get away from namby-pamby'ism and two bit knee jerk politics, and it's sad to say this country seems to be going the same way.

It'll really bog you down when the state tries to control you and going about your business, trust me :whistle:

Besides, the way the stories on the news etc. are coming across mention nothing of permits, just the fact that if you're found with a laser, you need to justify its use.

I'll have no problems at all taking my laser collimator out with me observing if I need to align my optics... if I end up in court justifying myself, I'd relish it :D

Regards,
Rob

[OneOfOne]

I've had my laser licensed for a couple of years now, I should check when it runs out. I disagree that they need to have a license, but I do agree that there should be some sort of regulation. If you want/need to use one, and you follow the law and use it correctly, you should be totally imune to the ramblings of government puppets and the stupidity of morons who use them dangerously. I don't have a problem with them throwing some of these idiots into jail, or give them some of their own medicine (revenge really is sweet).

Only if they find aircraft being purposely targetted by people who are legally entitled to have one, should they begin to consider a "total" ban. As far as I know none of the people caught have had them "legally". I think if anyone on IIS were to be caught flashing aircraft or people, they should be removed from the forum, have their counterweights smashed, eyepieces covered in grease, piers permanently rotated to point north, the cross hairs on their collimation tools bent, mirrors scratched and GoTos changed to only work during daylight hours! And then we will think of something to upset them :D

I rarely use my laser mounted on the scope, the TelRad is much easier for alignment, but I use my handheld pointer often during public viewings (last year I did maybe 10?, almost that many so far this year)...and there is not a single tool in the known universe that does this job better! If you don't show the skies to others, you may not need one and may not think that any of us need them, but if you have an interest in sharing the heavens with others, a pointer is almost as essential as a scope, the gasps of amazement they invoke when they can see where the scope is pointed always makes me :)

So if you do have a pointer, you owe it to ALL of us to use it responsibly and carefully. So be careful out there...for all of us.

[rmcpb]

Heard our fearless leader on 702 yesterday and it looks like the laws are going to be more like the wonderful knife laws. If you have a valid reason to be carrying it then its OK so we should be in the clear. The really grey area was the "powerful" ones that are weapons, he never defined them but not surprising as he can hardly tie his shoe laces let alone actually understand his ban!!

[Glenhuon]

I've been following the various threads about laser pointers, and having given it some thought I can't think of any reason I need one. :shrug:
I have 2 lasers here (red), one is my colimation tool and the other on a spirit level. Apart from the pretty green line extending into the heavens :), can't see any advantage over a good finderscope or red dot type.

Bill

[asterisk]

What is the government's definition of a high-powered laser? Anything over 1mW?

[JohnH]

I am organnising a star party for my daughter's school next month, I have always found a laser pointer a great way to indicate the points of interest on previous occasions, naturally I would like to be able to use it again. Any advice? All I can think to do is ask my local police station for permission?

[robgreaves]

Wouldn't bother - you might be stirring a hornets nest. Just use it, and of course don't point it near aircraft - which I'm sure as a responsible astronomer you wouldn't.

My interpretation is they're not actually banned; just if you get patted down and the cops find one on your person and you have no good reason for it, you end up in the slammer for 2 years along with the rapists, kiddy fiddlers and murderers*

Using it at a star party to point out objects sounds like a perfectly valid use to me, based on the guidance issued so far.

Regards,
Rob

*and in the UK, they'd be out on good behaivour terms before the laser user was!

[Ian Robinson]

I frequently carry a big fishing knife openly hanging in a scabard off my belt which has a "dicky protector on it" (if you fish for big fish you will know what that is) and have never been challenged by the cops when they've seen me with it (when I've been walking down the street when I'm going or have been fishing).

I'll wait and see what the requirements are to "legally" own my laser collimator before I do anything I think.

[robgreaves]

I played with a 14 Watt CO2 laser at university...!

Regards,
Rob

[Ian Robinson]

You could call them (anominously) and ask them where you stand if you use it ?

[ausastronomer]

Obviously you don't do any public astronomy education or outreach. In which case you don't have any need for one.

I use mine all the time when doing outreach with kids, community groups, or with visiting overseas astronomers, from the northern hemisphere who are unfamiliar with our skies and constellation boundaries.

Depsite the fact that I DESPISE Morris Iemma and the dipshyts that voted the labor government back in after they successfully screwed everything in NSW in the past decade +, including, the health system, the public transport system, the education system, the police system, the water resources infrasctructure and everything else they have had a play with, I can only blame the fools who improperly use these devices for this legislation.

With the amount of laser pointer misuse in recent years that I have seen, this legislation was inevitable, irrespective of who was in Government.

I will apply for the permit when the forms are available and I think getting a permit for the laser pointer will be a formality, if you can show "just cause".

Cheers,
John B

[§AB]

^^ I agree with you. I hate the labor government aswell. HATE THEM LIKE HELL! Same story in Victoria, they screwed everything right up. Oh and then there's the do-nothing sitting on hands syndrome to boot. Onya "Buttby"!

Now with have "KRUDD" to content with. Scary thought having him run the country, isn't it? Wait a minute, he doesn't even know how to!

[OneOfOne]

I had a 1.2kW peak CO2 at Telstra :D We even used it for "official" work sometimes...don't know how that happened though!

[OneOfOne]

I agree, as I said earlier, if you don't do any public astronomy...I really don't see much of a need to have one. Once I got the TelRad I only use the alignment laser if the star is close to the zenith...I don't have a flip top head! And my back ain't what it used to be.

[iceman]

I've added a story to the front page of IceInSpace (http://www.iceinspace.com.au) discussing the issue and to highlight it to a broader audience.

[leon]

Dont worry guys we wont be having the Laser Police bashing down our doors to do a full search, it's mostly media hype like always, and then it dies.

leon

[g__day]

So if an idiot running around near a star party flashes a police copter, and the boys in blue arrive to your gig in the field - what do you see happening - licences or not?

[snowyskiesau]

It's worth remembering that lasers are not yet banned in NSW, just that they will be soon.
It takes time for a new law to be passed no matter what our premier may think.

FWIW, I bought a laser pointer yesterday and the vendor says he will continue to sell them as long as it is legal to do so.

[Galactic G]

The OP's linked article doesn't state that only green lasers will be banned. It appears that all high powered laser devices will be banned in NSW.

My experience in Victoria is even the Victoria Police Licencing Branch didn't know allot about what type of laser was legal or not. Nor did they know what a Newtonian Collimator was, or why some of them are classed as Prohibited Weapons. Once I explained to the officer what it was (including sending him pictures of one) he went away and phoned me back several hours latter after researching the legalities of my Collimator. During his return phone call he laughed and said "I can't believe this is a prohibited weapon, but it is, and you will have to apply for a licence for it."

In Victoria for the owner of a "high powered laser" having a licence for a prohibited weapon means that at any time a police member can knock on your door and ask to see your Prohibited Weapon and inspect how you store it. (ie in a locked safe container.) For the sellers of prohibited weapons it means that every sale of a prohibited weapon must be recorded in a special register noting the person who bought the device and their Approval to Possess a Prohibited Weapon Licence number. Therefore the costs of owning a Prohibited Weapon is more than just the application and licence fees. This will surely see the cost of these devices going up once this law is passed in NSW, and other states follow.

I believe that Laser Pointers should be regulated but putting them in the category of "Prohibited Weapons" is going too far. A valid reason for owning one, a licence test demonstrating that a licence holder knows how to safely use and store the laser would suffice is my opinion.

Licencing will help shape the attitudes of those people who posses and use such a device, and what is expected from them.

Unfortunately, what ever we do, we probably wont keep lasers out of the hand of idiots who want to point them at planes and cars with the intention of making them crash. Anyone advocating shinning a laser in someones eyes isn't the sort of person I would like see owning a laser, and only strengthens the argument that all these devices should be banned outright. :sadeyes:

[Ric]

I heard on the late news last night that mighty Morrie is encouraging the public to report any sightings of pointers being used.:doh:

Don't upset your neighbours people.:P

Cheers

[Garyh]

I must agree with alot of whats said above...
Putting a collimator in the same class as a flick knife or a crossbow or a sword is a really stupid move. I know which one I would rather have pointed at me....:)
Can see the news now....Bank robbed by gang armed with collimators....:lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol:

Also what do they mean by high power pointers? is a 5-10mw regarded as high or are they looking at <200mw?

Don`t the police have enough to do than worry about chasing astronomers down aligning there optics!
This is going to be totally ridiculous

[fringe_dweller]

I am surprised no-one has quoted ..'could only be taken from "..my cold, dead hands" ' :help:

[Cerberus]

someone told me D day is may 6th, maybe we should make clear the announcement/warning of the new regulations as opposed to when it comes into effect, most of the police don't even know yet going by first hand reports

[fringe_dweller]

I think have got the answer!, a mass act of civil disobedience - if we all descend upon parliment with our green lasers en masse at night, and wave it at them and blind the entire city, effectively freezing the show - take over the joint until our demands are met BWHAHAHHAHAHYHA only prob is they only have to wait till morning and then we're stuffed? :confuse3:

[Ric]

Hi Kearn, I can just see it all ending with a siege situation. :P

The TRG surround a backyard observatory but are held at bay by an angry amateur astronomer who refuses to part with their collimator and pointer. :lol:

Cheers

[Andrew17]

I just bought a green laser from overseas a few days ago, it was a green 'true 30mw laser'

Im guessing these are considered high powered because of their intensity and capabilities to cut through plastics at close ranges, so what will customs do with all this talk of the bans now? Will I still recieve my laser or will they just keep it there and have my $50 go to waste?

Can I be charged with possesing one just for ordering it?

Thanks

[fringe_dweller]

Hi Ric, LOL! yes it could get messy, like the rambo/ned kelly of outlaw astronomy! maybe scratch that great idea bit :(

[Ian Robinson]

Why do you need 30mW of lasing power ??

You might get a knock on the door if customs or the post office pick up on this.

[robgreaves]

It's a joke - it really is.

However, the media is powerful. They scrapped Concorde. As you might imagine, the media like to blow things out of proportion in pursuit of something called 'sensationalism'. As someone has already said on here, the rising and setting sun carries a higher power density than any handheld laser pointer does... but that doesn't grab the headlines. Pilots don't stare at it either. No newspaper has mentioned the blink aversion I wrote about. How many pilots really have been 'blinded' by laser light? The answer, I think you will find, is a big fat zero.

Give a politician the chance to grab the limelight and wield a bit of bureacratic power, especially in a knee-jerk reaction to something in the news, and you have a dangerous (nanny) state-knows-best situation on your hands. It's happened time and time again in the UK.

The UK Dunblane handgun shooting - right away the government took away all the legitimately owned handguns. People's target shooting hobbies were quashed overnight. But the criminal guns were still out there. It solved absolutely nothing. Had the shooter used a crowbar instead I can guarantee our illustrious government would have banned crowbars...

I'll happily carry on using my laser collimator as a responsible astronomer. I'm really not fussed about chasing a license/permit and locking it in a gun safe, and will appear in court if absolutely necessary and state my case which will beyond all reasonable doubt prove I am not harbouring a 'dangerous weapon' and neither is it ever, will be, or capable of being used as such.

Don't just roll over and buy these permits - the state and the government is (meant to be) there to act on your best interests, not persecuting you from the freedom your previously had in going about your business, or hobby. Once the thin edge of these wedges gets wider, they're not generally reversible! (hence our emigration to Australia).

The louts shining these things at aircraft, whether it harms pilots of not, are the ones that need to look out - not us.

Regards,
Rob.

[ngcles]

Hi All,

Garyh wrote:

"Also what do they mean by high power pointers? is a 5-10mw regarded as high or are they looking at <200mw?"

Well, the answer, at least according to the Premier is that:

__ALL__ Class III __and__ __ALL__ Class IV HAND-HELD lasers will be classed as "Prohibited Weapons" by being placed in Schedule 1 of the Weapons Prohibition Act 1998 and the regulations thereto.

Class III and Class IV includes virtually __ALL__ the ones we are accustomed to using as night star-ponters -- yes even the least powerful 5mW ones. Wattage does not come into it per-se -- if it is Class III or IV, it will be prohibited under the Act. Check the sticker on your laser. Almost without exception, all the ones we are accustomed to using are either Class IIIa or IIIb.

After the legislation is amended/proclaimed you will only be able to lawfully buy/possess/use one if you hold a permit under the Weapons Prohibition Act 1998 and the regulations thereto and comply with the provisions of the Act and regulations as to storage and use. The permit costs $127- (NSW) and is valid for 5 years. You _must_ demonstrate a genuine need to possess in order to get a permit. Being an amateur astronomer will _likely_ get you over the line (no promises).

If you don't have a permit, lawful/reasonable excuse doesn't come into it. Being an astronomer doesn't come into it unless you have a permit. Ignorance of the law is not a defence. The Act punishes offenders with a maximum fine of $5,500 and or 2yrs imprisonment upon summary conviction, or a maximum of 14 years imprisonment if the prosecution proceed on indictment to the District Court.

As for _any_ other HAND-HELD lasers (ie not Class III or IV) (yes even the tiny 0.1mW red-dot ones), if it is found on you in a public place and you do not have a lawful excuse for possession of the laser, you will have commiitted an offence under the Summary Offences Act of having it in possession without a lawful excuse. There are tons of legitimate explainations which could amount to lawful excuses like being a school teacher giving a presentation, a laser telescope collimator (assuming you have the 'scope with you), giving a presentation at a public lecture and using it as a pointer etc etc. There are no restrictions on sale, just on possession wiithout a lawful excuse.

But, for example, if you are found walking out of the cinema down in George St in the City at 1.00am in the morning and it is in your pocket and you don't have a bona-fide legitimate and lawful reason to explain your possession at that time of that tiny red-dot laser, the police can sieze it and you will get an infingement notice or a Court Attendance Notice.

See the Premier's press conference here:


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/21/2222662.htm

I'm not defending the decision by the government -- I believe it sucks so bad it blows. But as I understand it, those are the facts.

Best,

Les D
Contributing Editor
AS&T

[g__day]

So if you have a laser device with no label - how do the police know its rating - and how could they prove you know its rating?

If you say its broken - is it still prohibited?

If its in pieces is a prohibited weapon or a kit?

A converted DVD writer laser is probably alot more dangerous than a star pointer, will they be banned - as they are often beyond 60mW?

http://www.die4laser.com/dvd-rec/DissectionofaDVDwriter.htm

overdrive it past 100mW rather simply too http://www.die4laser.com/dvd-rec/Die4Drive.htm

Various people post how to create 250mW red lasers - which would be really dangerous and effectively untraceable http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz4v8g6Y4mI&feature=related

So again - I think Pandora's box is well and truly openned.


Given so much technology is available, concealable and if stored in pieces you couldn't tell the output power from seeing only the pieces alone - what would the police do if they wanted to prosecute? The laser diode itself is smaller than a pea, the wiring is simplicityand to convert a torch to laser weapon and back would take very little engineering know how.

Personally I'd be alot more worried about these being used on planes, police or say the pope! Still you could issue saftey glasses to all at risk proffessions - neutral or darkened - and this would be a great safety measure!

[fringe_dweller]

lots of great posts, a force to be reckoned with i would wager :thumbsup: they picked on the wrong group of people!
just remembered, wasnt there other legitimate uses for green lasers besides the astronomical related ones? i seem to remember one ad where it said, also used by authorities to humanely unsettle and move on nesting/congregating nuisance birds, like feral pidgeons, as an act of public health and safety. might be some others even. :shrug:

[aaronm2282]

I have a gun licenses and i need to keep it in a safe under the PWA will the same apply for lasers?

[Peter Ward]

From Shakespeare's Henry VI

'The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers'

[ngcles]

Hi All,

Aaronm 2282 asked:

"I have a gun licenses and i need to keep it in a safe under the PWA will the same apply for lasers?"

Section 26 of the Weapons Prohibition Act Act provides:

WEAPONS PROHIBITION ACT 1998 - SECT 26
General requirement for safe keeping of prohibited weapons
26 General requirement for safe keeping of prohibited weapons
A person who possesses a prohibited weapon must take all reasonable precautions to ensure:

(a) its safe keeping, and
(b) that it is not stolen or lost, and
(c) that it does not come into the possession of a person who is not authorised to possess the weapon.
Maximum penalty: 100 penalty units or imprisonment for 2 years, or both.

Additionally, Regulation 11 & 12 of the Regulations provides:

11 Applicant’s understanding of storage and safety requirements

(1) The Commissioner must not issue a permit unless the Commissioner is satisfied of the following matters:
(a) that the applicant is aware of, and understands, any applicable requirements of the Act and this Regulation in relation to the storage and safe keeping of prohibited weapons,
(b) that the applicant will, if issued with a permit, be able to comply with those requirements.
(2) For the purposes of subclause (1) (b), the Commissioner may order an inspection by a police officer (in accordance with such arrangements as are agreed on by the applicant and the Commissioner) of the proposed storage site for a prohibited weapon. The fee payable for such an inspection is specified in clause 35 (1) (c).



12 General conditions of permit

In accordance with section 14 (3) of the Act, a permit is subject to the following conditions:
(a) the permit holder must comply with any special requirements that are notified to the permit holder in writing by the Commissioner and that relate to the security, storage and safe keeping of the prohibited weapons to which the permit relates,
(b) any conveying of a prohibited weapon to which the permit relates must be in accordance with the following safety requirements:
(i) the permit holder must take all reasonable precautions to ensure that the prohibited weapon is not lost or stolen while it is being conveyed,
(ii) anything designed to be fired or otherwise propelled from a prohibited weapon (for example, an arrow or dart) must be kept separate from the prohibited weapon while it is being conveyed,
(iii) if the conveying is by person, or by public transport, the prohibited weapon must be contained in an unobtrusive locked container,
(iv) if the conveying is by vehicle other than public transport, the prohibited weapon must be stored in a locked compartment within the vehicle, or in a locked container within or properly secured to the vehicle, and must not be able to be seen while it is being transported,
(c) any prohibited weapon to which the permit relates that is referred to in clause 2 (1) of Schedule 1 to the Act must be certified, by the holder of a theatrical weapons armourer permit, as having been deactivated (unless the Commissioner otherwise authorises the permit holder in writing).


They are pretty clear so I won't bother to explain what it all means chapter and verese.

Best,

Les D

[ngcles]

Hi Peter & All,

Peter Ward wrote:

From Shakespeare's Henry VI

'The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers'


Amen and Amen!!

If nothing else, there are far, far, far too many lawyers in Parliament on both sides of the House.

There are far, far too many lawyers that think they are the only people who are intelligent enough to govern us and alone possess a proper "social conscience". Too many lawyers believe that only lawyers can deliver any justice to the plebs.

A former co-worker of mine ( a laywer) is now the state member for Miranda. Barry is actually a very nice guy (but I digress) and generally a good local member. A year or so ago I asked him:

So Barry, this State has now been self governing and making its own laws for about 150 years. Every year, the number of laws increases. When will be have enough laws?

He had no answer.

From a lawyer's point of view, we will never have enough laws. More laws means more bureaucracy means bigger government and more taxes to play with. You've got to love it. The "Nanny State" arrived here more than 30 years ago but it's getting worse. What is the next stage?

Best,


Les D

[Ian Robinson]

My laser is 5mW and red .... so I guess I am safe.

[Paul Hatchman]

G'day Les,

Everything you wrote is correct as far as I understand. One small point, the Australian standard (AS2211.1:2004) for laser classification is not exactly the same as used in the US. But for practical purposes a 5mw Class IIIa (US Standard) collimator would probably be equivalent to a class 3R (Australian Standard) and sadly still a prohibited weapon. Class 3R "Radiation in this class is considered low risk, but potentially hazardous."

Just my opinion below:

At this stage there is no draft legislation to review, and until then we don't really know what is going to be controlled or not. If people actually want to do something, I'd suggest writing to the premier, police minister and your local member about the legitimate uses of laser products in astronomy (preferably in conjunction with your astronomical club/society). Remember the legislation has not been written yet, let alone gone through parliament and so far the government has indicated that they are sympathetic to legitimate laser use by amateur astronomers.

I know that certain members of the ASNSW are planning to participate in this process as much as we can to try and make the final legislation workable for amateur astronomers.

I'd also suggest that arguing for allowing anything greater than a class 3R laser is going to be futile as the Australian Standard requires that operators of these products receive comprehensive safety training and be used within strict safety guidelines.

I'd be interested to hear people's comments on the following http://www.pangolin.com/faa/laser-aircraft-animation-and-explanation.htm (http://www.pangolin.com/faa/laser-aircraft-animation-and-explanation.htm).
This is supposedly the effects of a 5mw laser on the pilot / cockpit of an outbound plane (admittedly on a simulator). It certainly gave me some food for thought.

[Paul Hatchman]

Not if the Premier's press statements are what passes as legislation. You will have a class 3, hand held laser and therefore a prohibited weapon.

[Ian Robinson]

Yep , but mine is never used as a pointing device.

[Paul Hatchman]

Hi Ian,

I assume you are talking about a collimator? According to the Premier's press statement the laws will apply to any "hand held" laser, which would also apply to collimators.

Cheers.

[Peter Ward]

So if you get a permit, you need a black hole of sorts to keep the photons in?????

But ...correct me if I am wrong, the Habeas Corpus defense may work....i.e asking the impossible.

(habeas corpus is the fundamental instrument for safeguarding individual freedom against arbitrary and lawless state action)

P.S. As the as agency said that lost the Schweppes account. "Jesuschwepped!! "

[Zuts]

My 20mw green laser is never used period, it just sits in my equipment case, and it's now illegal to posess it. I cant legally sell it without a permit so what should I do?

What a stupid backdated law :mad2:

Paul

[Ian Robinson]

Yes it is .

And I'll wait and see what happens wrt regulations : possession of a precision colimating laser (a scientific instrument) by an astronomer (amateur or pro) is totally legitimate .

[Paul Hatchman]

Some more information on laser pointers and aircraft safety can be found here:

http://www.pangolin.com/resguide09c.htm#results-of-faa-simulator-studies

All very interesting.

[g__day]

Standard classification for lasers


From: wellison@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: sci.electronics
Subject: CDRH Laser regulations
Date: 28 Feb 94 10:33:39 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services
As posted by the Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH) regulation 21 CFR 1040.10 and 21 CFR 1040.11, the standard classification for lasers (http://www.epanorama.net/documents/lights/laserclass.html#) are as follows:

Class I laser product

No known biological hazard. The light is shielded from any possible viewing by a person and the laser system is interlocked to prevent the laser from being on when exposed. (large laser printers (http://www.epanorama.net/documents/lights/laserclass.html#) such as the DEC LPS-40 has a 10mW HeNe driving it which is a Class IIIb laser, but the printer (http://www.epanorama.net/documents/lights/laserclass.html#) is interlocked so as to prevent any contact with the exposed laser beam, hence the device produces no known biological hazard, even though the actual laser is Class IIIb. This would also apply to CD (http://www.epanorama.net/documents/lights/laserclass.html#) and small laser printers, as they are Class I devices).
Class II laser products

Power up to 1 milliwatt. These lasers are not considered a optically dangerous device as the eye reflex will prevent any occular damage. (I.E. when the eye is hit with a bright light, the eye lid will automatically blink or the person will turn thier head so as to remove the bright light. This is called the reflex action or time. Class II lasers won't cause eye damage in this time period. Still, one wouldn't want to look at it for an extended period of time.) Caution labels (yellow) should be placed on the laser equipment. No known skin exposure hazard exist and no fire hazard exist.
Class IIIa laser products

Power output between 1 milliwatt and 5 milliwatt. These lasers can produce spot blindness under the right conditions and other possible eye injuries. Products that have a Class IIIa laser should have a laser emission indicator to tell when the laser is in operation. They should also have a Danger label and output aperature label attatched to the laser and/or equipment. A key operated power switch SHOULD be used to prevent unauthorized use. No known skin hazard of fire hazard exist.
Class IIIb laser products

Power output from 5 milliwatts to 500 milliwatts. These lasers are considered a definate eye hazard, particularly at the higher power levels, which WILL cause eye damage. These lasers MUST have a key switch to prevent unathorized use, a laser emission indicator, a 3 to 5 second time delay after power is applied to allow the operator to move away from the beam path and a mechanical shutter to turn the beam off during use. Skin may be burned at the higher levels of power output as well as the flash point of some materials which could catch fire. (I have seen 250mW argons set a piece of red paper on fire in less than 2 seconds exposure time !) A red DANGER label and aperature label MUST be affixed to the laser.
Class IV laser products

Power output >500 milliwatts. These CAN and WILL cause eye damage. The Class IV range CAN and WILL cause materials to burn on contact as well as skin and clothing to burn. These laser systems MUST have: A key lockout switch to prevent unauthorized use Inter-locks to prevent the system from being used with the protective covers off Emission indicators to show that the laser is in use Mechanical shutters to block the beam Red DANGER labels and aperature labels affixed to the laser
The reflected beam should be considered as dangerous as the primary beam. (again, I have seen a 1,000 watt CO2 laser blast a hole through a piece of steel, so imagine what it would do to your eye !)

And the new classification system is espoused well here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety

PS

Class 4 lasers cost less than most decent scopes, could be used as weapons, and can range in size from table top to packet of cigarettes!

[ngcles]

Hi Paul & All,

Paul Wrote:

"At this stage there is no draft legislation to review, and until then we don't really know what is going to be controlled or not. If people actually want to do something, I'd suggest writing to the premier, police minister and your local member about the legitimate uses of laser products in astronomy (preferably in conjunction with your astronomical club/society). Remember the legislation has not been written yet, let alone gone through parliament and so far the government has indicated that they are sympathetic to legitimate laser use by amateur astronomers."

If I know anything about these processes (and believe me I do) the legislation has probably already been framed and awaits a few rubber-stamps at the Criminal Law Review Division and by the Parliamentary Draftsman (who actually frames and checks the exact wording). They don't hold press conferences like this until they are _well_ down the track.

I have previously written to Mr Debus and Mr Campbell a couple of weeks ago. I got a two line reply from Mr David Campbell (Police Mnister) yesterday saying that the matters I have raised will recieve due attention ... thank you.

Without wanting to be overly dramatic, we are past the writing letters stage.

Time is of the essence now.

I believe a personal delegation to the Premier or Police Minister is needed before it is introduced to parliament. If you are going to organise one, I'm very interested in being a part of it. It reallyhas to be done in the next week to 10 days I'd reckon otherwise it will be all through and put to bed and at that stage, the concrete will have well and truly set.

The interesting (alarming, hypocritical) thing is in the video of the press conference is where you can see one of these "high-powered weapons of mass murder" actually being demonstrated and shone around in the room onto reflective surfaces (plastic, glass) for the benefit of the press to show how dangerous it is.

If they are really that dangerous, why do that in a room full of journos ...

If it was a firearm would they do it ???


Best,

Les D

[robgreaves]

It's all just political Stercus Tauri I'm afraid.

It's really sad this country has come to this, as we went to great lengths and expense to move from the UK where this sort of thing is so prevalent now, to come to 'no-nonsense Australia', but I'm beginning to wonder how 'no nonsense' this country is after all now...

For instance, the latest thing likely to be banned in the UK is taking photographs in public places, for the fear you're a terrorist scoping out a terror act. Until now, you have been able to use a camera in a public place with only the occasional arrest under the prevention of terrorism act, held in a cell, grilled, pictures deleted, then released - unless you used a tripod, in which case you were definitely hauled in. It's really got the photography fraternity's backs up, that one.

A friend of mine in the UK who flies model jets was spotted in his garage with radio control transmitters, cans of jet fuel, and was arrested under the prevention of terrorism act. Held in a cell for a couple of days, grilled, then his house turned upside down by the police, then released with no charge. A real erosion of your rights as a citizen to partake in a hobby.

I could do a lot more damage to someone, if I really wanted to, with a BigW soup ladle than my laser collimator. And when it's fixed in a focuser, is it hand held any more? What about I put it in my focuser before I leave home?

I can tell that smarmy idiot in Government hasn't really thought this one through... They really are barking up the wrong tree.

Regards,
Rob.

[Garyh]

One thing I havn`t noticed mentioned is what is mean`t by HAND HELD?
A collimator is not a hand held device. Be pretty hard trying to collimate a scope like that I bet!
It is only used when attached to a focuser. To me thats not hand held.
Same as a laser permanently mounted to a scope.
Isn`t it legal in Victoria when they are mounted in something and not hand held..?
Looking at the cockpit simulation, now hows gonna get within 1200ft to flash someone with a 5mw pointer unless you are on the runway or right beside it...gees
Class 3a should not be put in the same wagon as higher rated lasers and not go under this legislation.
I don`t have a pointer but my laser level in the shed will be a illegal weagon too!
:(

[Omaroo]

If you can remove it from a focuser or cradle, aim it at a person, push a button and land a red dot on them it's hand-held.

[robgreaves]

What about the fact my collimator is barlowed, meaning the beam is highly divergent? I'll happily aim the beam at myself, if you want, with no ill effects. At about a metre, the energy in the beam has reduced by virtue of being spread over an area a few thousand times larger than at the collimator's exit port.

For this ruling to make sense, there must be legislation on beam divergence or convergence? Where is that written down?

I'm still staggered that these technology-shy political numpties in government still haven't considered blink aversion; the body's own defence mechanism for protecting the eyes against bright light.

Consider a camera flash lasts approximately 1/1000000th (a millionth) of a second. How many photos of people have their eyes shut? Blink aversion is a phenominally fast involuntary reaction built into the human body to protect the eyes. To want to, and continue to stare down a parallel green high power laser beam is physically impossible.

Again, where are the statistics of pilots blinded (talking loss of vision here, not 'noticed a dim green light outside') through staring into a laser beam? Hmm - I thought so - none.

Regards,
Rob.

[Paul Hatchman]

If you are lucky, you may fall withing class 1M. "Class 1M usually relates to laser products with high divergence or large beam diameters compared to the limiting aperture." This is assumign the barlow can not be removed as lasers are classed by the maximum output under their worst failure mode.

This has been studied fairly thorougly be the american faa. (See either of the links I have posted previously in this thread). While there have been cases of damage to pilot's eyes, the problem is with what they call "distraction and startle", "glare and disruption" and "temporary flash blindness". My reading of the faa study is that 5mw green lasers essentially cause minimal problems unless more than about 350 metres from the cockpit, making helicopters more susceptible than other aircraft. But please check it out for yourself http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/2000s/media/0409.pdf

[adebear]

Wouldn't the aircraft company be able to create a windscreen covering material that attenuated the few select frequencies these common ebay lasers focus on. that would stop most of the issues and protect pilots.

[ving]

i cant believe this but i am about to stick up for the govt...

there have been so many reports lately of people hitting planes with thier lasers that i doubt there is anything else that can be done but ban them.... how else do you stop people from aiming at planes?

so many suffer because of so few...

idiots.

[rmcpb]

Problem is Dave that the idiots will not hand in their lasers and the legit users will. Just like in the case of the gun laws!!

Problem will not go away at all, the pollies seem to think they can put genies back into the bottle :)

[Cerberus]

...along with all the associated costs with keeping and maintaining the item as well.
If you already have a permit it will reduce costs, as you can put the pointer in a safe, and maybe the permit for the other item can be amended to include the pointer?
the other issue is, someone said, using the laser pointer on private property is ok, it's only on public areas where police can search you and you need a bona fide reason for having it, anyone confirm this? importation without permit will still be banned, but if true maybe it can still be sold through the shops only for private use

[ngcles]

Hi Cerebrus & All,

As for Class III and IV lasers, if they do include them in Schedule 1 of the Prohibited Weapons Act (as the Premier has announced) it won't make a scrap of difference -- public, private; its possession is an offence under the Act and _potentially_ renders you liable to a 14 year term of imprisonment.

Re: other "low-powered" lasers (ie red-dot type) it will only be a problem in a public place and in the absence of a "reasonable excuse".

No I don't believe (based on the announcement) you will be able to tack it on to your other permit. Firearms are under a completely different Act (Firearms Act) for starters. A permit under the Weapons Prohibition Act is a whole other bucket of fish.

Sorry to bring such bad news, but them's the facts as I understand 'em.

Best,

Les D

[tornado33]

I cannot see police busting down observatory doors and siezing telescope collimators, so why worry, go on collimating our scopes. I think the police have better things to do with their time than conduct raids on amateur observatories and astro society viewing nights. As for using laser pointers for pointing things in the sky, again, as the beam cannot be seen from a long distance to the side of the beam, as long as it is aimed skywards and never near aircraft, there shouldnt be a problem.

If society becomes a place where police picket observing grounds looking for "prohibited weapons" Id rather go to jail in protest. No way Id want a part of a society like that. As far as Im concerned the state can then clothe and feed me for the rest of my life.

[smenkhare]

I'm at telstra and we don't get those cool toys. What department were you in?


What is their definition of a laser "pointer" I've got a couple of gas lasers that i would exactly be happy having to give up.

[Harb]

Unfortunately what just about everyone here is missing is making them illegal won't do a thing.
Its near impossible to catch them now, so that wont change.
The people that point these things at planes don't give a rats about laws, so the only people this will inconvenience is the legit users, such as us.
I think it would be better to have a simple license system such as any other prohibited device and then just apply the full force of the law to the law breakers if they ever get caught.
Laser grades should all be available to those that want to have one.
I have many items here that are capable of mass murder. in fact I drive one of them every day, yet I don't run people down in the street.....
I can see like the gun issue, the only people that will have high power lasers are the people that point them at planes.......I bet now that it is illegal, there will be more attacks than ever before, the challenge that makes these idiots blood pump has been set.

[tornado33]

I wonder what response Id get if I applied for a permit to own this (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Superlaser) type of laser?
2.4x10 to power of32 watts

[Cerberus]

point taken about the car also being a weapon, but Iemma and his cronies seem to believe a 10 year old kid with a cheap $30 green laser pointer is somehow capable of bringing down a passenger airplane and killing hundreds of passengers and people on the ground, whereas with a car you can only kill or injure a few people, not hundreds!
until the law makers get that crap out of their head this won't go away, and it also helps explain why these laws were drawn up so quickly, apart from the increasing incidents of laser flashings but thats more a 'monkey see monkey do' issue. I strongly believe that if the media did not report the first 'laser attack' the next incident would have probably been long off, considering these are just kids looking for instant attention and gratification so they can brag to their friends.
The other aspect is the idea or pre-conceived notion of the definition of a laser to the average person, I don't know if someone already said this but the average person off the street probably thinks a laser is a weapon of death as seen in movies like star wars and james bond, like a wrist watch thats capable of cutting through 2 inch thick steel like butter, so when you ask someone who is spoon fed sensational crap off the idiot box(tv) they will agree with the official line

[Ric]

I was checking my wifes laser last night and guess what it's technically illegal under these laws.

My wife is a Chef and uses a laser thermometer to ensure the correct temp of food being produced. It is safer than a probe as the risk of cross contamination is eliminated. This laser is handheld and is shaped like a gun and even comes with a holster.

Under these laws of stupidity my wife will now either have to get a licence for it and keep it locked in a gun cabinet or such like or get rid of it and run a risk of contaminating food with probes however slight which carries a fine of $100,000 per person under HACCP regulations.

I wont repeat what she said when I told her last night but you can guess.:lol:

Just another example of how this law has been well thought out.:screwy:

Cheers:)

[tornado33]

This (http://www.laserpointerforums.com/forums/YaBB.pl) must be a nightmarish site for the Australian Government.



Note this (http://www.laserpointerforums.com/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1208902422) post




Wow, 35 watts of laser light!


Lasers were raised at our Newcastle Astronomical Society meeting last night, but since theres no written legslation or permit system, nothing much could be done.
Scott

[OneOfOne]

I used to be in the Research Labs for 25 years (I was but a baby when I started). This little sucker could cut through 3mm steel like it was butter. I wrote a program (before the IBM PC was around) that allowed you to draw something on a graphis tablet and then send it to the laser controller (our perspex maps of Australia with Queensland missing were very popular :lol:)

[smenkhare]

Transfer time :P

and 35W for a dpss laser? no way that's going to be very portable, and for the price you could a nice gas laser.

[ngcles]

Hi All,

There are many others affected beside us -- see article in 26 April's SMH:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/laser-ban-an-overreaction-designer/2008/04/25/1208743248991.html

And looks like they are fighting as well.

Best,

Les D
Contributing Editor
AS&T

[Ingo]

You'd have a pretty big diode, but they go for pretty cheap. No way you'd get that to turn any other color than infrared, the crystals would melt!

Anyways, everybody here just get a 5mW 532nm laser and use it for astronomy if you need it, it's not bright enough to see other than directly behind. If you need a collimating laser, anything 1mW or under should be fine for that task.

I've had 280mW 532nm lasers pointed in the sky for at least 20 minutes and I live less than 2 miles from a major airport.

[mbaddah]

As I was still confused regarding the ban on laser pointers, I decided to call the Police Assistance Line and ask them (http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/ ph: 131444)

After stating that I am an amateur astronomer and whether its permissable for me to use my green laser pointer at night (with proper care ofcourse), the lady on the phone couldn't answer my question and said she wasn't sure, so she forwarded my call to the local police station.

Again I stated my position, and whether from today onwards it was illegal or not to use my green laser pointer.The police officer said she doesn't know herself as they have not received any official warning, email, letters etc...

I told her fine then i shall continue to use it (appropriately) until you tell me to stop :)

Maybe you guys can call up your local police station and see whether you get same response or not? I'm going to continue using mine, cheers :D

[Ian Robinson]

You forget how devastating a car filled with high explosive can be .... car bombs have regularly killed outright dozens or hundreds of people in the middle east.

[Cerberus]

yes true, but the operative term here is "in the middle east", i was referring to an average backyard in sydney where this law will take effect, not downtown iraq

[smenkhare]

So only hand held ones are banned?

[Harb]

I honestly think that once the facts all come out, this will be dropped like a hot potato.....
Mr Krudds Knee jerk reaction is just a diversion from the real problems our people are suffering and he is just looking for a "look at me ! I saved the world" thing.......

[fringe_dweller]

yep what about all the tradies that use lasers levels lol :rolleyes: i see advertised in the bunnings catologue all the time



oh dear, what an original cheap shot play on words/a name, and wrong pollie btw

[edwardsdj]

This is a NSW state government issue.

I thought one of the best ideas floated at Rudd's 2020 talkfest was the abolition of the states.

If we could completely elliminate the most incomptent, wasteful and corrupt layer of government in this country, so many of our problems (including this one) would just go away.

Perhaps a lot more public momentum behind the notion of eliminting the states is the best long term solution to this problem area.

[stillwalkabout]

I think a similar question was once asked of Stalin by Lady Astor
"Mr Stalin, when will you stop killing people?"
Stalin to Lady Astor "When it is no longer neccesary"
Makes me wonder what they are going to ban next
I will be ordering my pointer and mount tomorrow before Captain Bligh follow suit

[stillwalkabout]

Is it OK if I plagarise the rainmakers quote?
I am still trying to come up with an explanation as to why when I set the alarm for 4-00 am for a GRS transit I have 80 percent cloud cover

[Harb]

yeah sorry I did mean Mr Iemma............Its very frustrating......a lot of these laws seem to be just put up to generate a media frenzy..........

[fringe_dweller]

i'm sorry if i went off a bit Harb, i have heard that pun on his name too many times, not your fault, its a free country can call anybody whatever ya want of course mate lol
well i am one person who is glad the states werent abolished while the lib/nats were in, for a start you would have nuke power stations all over the country by now, but i am all for them tho :)
and SA and NT would be the worlds nuclear waste dump years ago, which i'm not so keen on, just for starters..

with the murray thats the only issue i would like to see federally controlled
my 2c worth
sorry to digress from threads intent

[tornado33]

Speaking of lasers, I came across this (http://www.ldai.com/interactive/Active/5KW_QCW/index.htm)
Its an 808 NM IR laserdiode array in a dounut, with a power output of, wait for it, 5 KILOWATTS, and you can stack them together like this (http://www.ldai.com/flash_pieces/active_assemble/index.htm)
With liquid cooling it has a 100% duty cycle.
I found this site because someone was selling one of their "smaller" units rated at a "paltry" 100 watts! for just $499 new.
Scott

[Screwdriverone]

"Recently a number of pilots have reported that lasers have been shone into their cockpits during take-offs and landings."

Hmm, I wonder just how many pilots have actually had lasers shone into their cockpits?

Isnt "1" a number?

Funnily enough, I saw a guy and girl go into a telescope shop I was in the other day and "looked" around for about 10 mins (he was wearing cool track pants and looked like he was an extra straight from the set of "The Fast and the Furious"). After about 10 mins, he asked the shop assistant that was serving me about, surprise surprise, green lasers! Well, naturally my ears pricked up at this and I heard him get asked by the shop assistant in a leading question "are you going to mount this on a telescope?" to which he said: "yeah" and then the customer asked how much the 10mw, 20mw and 50mw lasers were!

3 things then went through my head, 1) He didnt look like a potential telescope customer or even a knowledgable telescope user, 2) What the hell are these people thinking? and finally 3) The sales assistant never said a word about a ban in NSW or anything else that resembled a warning about any potential trouble they may get into from the police for using this device!!!!

Very interesting......maybe we should all get 145db exhausts for our cars and do burnouts in front of the local police station before racing off and avoiding capture so that all hotted up cars can get banned in 30 seconds and we can all get some sort of justice in the world! (not that I have anything against hotted up cars per se! - but you get the idea!)

Is this going to happen? Don't be stupid! :mad2:

Chris

[Rainy.Days]

where can we find updates to what is happening?
as to my knowledge they havent passed legislation to ban laser pointers yet?
Will this apply to red laser pointers?

[CoombellKid]

I've pretty much kept away from this debate or dicussion, but feel I might
chip in here, this is a post I posted to another group on this very topic...

I'd like to clear a couple of things up about lasers. As there is a lot
of mis-information being put out there. Having worked with high powered
lasers for public display between 1989-2003.

ok, lets have a look at this... and why most of us in the industry think
pilots are stretching the truth. However I do not think it is a good idea to
be pointing these things at any power at anyone head, aircraft or motor
vehicle.

Lets take a 20W argon water cooled laser. At full power the beam/ray
is fired from the head. It exits the head through an optical plate which
focalises the beam at around 1-2mm. I don't believe you could swing
your hand fast enough to avoid burns at a range of half a metre or so
and you will be able to light a cigarette on the beam for several metres.
But then, and depending on the quality of the optical plate the beam will
most probably (actually it's a given fact) begin to converge or diverge
so at around 100+- metres the beam now 150+- mm wide, and a lot of it's
power is dissipating. Still you wouldn't want to look down it especially if
it's static. At say 500-600 metres the beam is now several feet across.
Lets say between 3' to 6' now look back down the beam your 6mm pupil
only takes a very small portion of the light, someone here might be able
to do the maths and let us all know. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist
to work out 3-6mm circle cut out of a 3-6' circle is a very small percentage
of what was a focalised beam. To even get flash blindness you would have to
look directly back down the beam not have it scan over your face. Even then
some of the light will be reflected off the window of the aircraft or car.
You would have to do it for a period of time, I dont imaging a hand held
divice could be that accurate...

Which comes to the next impossibility. Let's say we had the ability to
make the optical plate that well (up until when I last worked with lasers
they hadn't) That you could keep the beam focalised along it path without
it converging or diverging from the 1-2mm beam being fired. Now you have
something that can do damage. Ok, but what's the possibility of hitting a
6mm target travelling at speed that is also moving around in it's own
environment. Say the pupil of someone driving, a pilot flying...etc...etc...
you not going to do that by hand. The laser head of a 20W argon (water
cooled) is a 2 man lift in itself. And I'm not sure there is a guidance system
available to do the job yet. Plus 64 amp 3phase to power the sucker, 50psi
clean water source. So what do you think the chances are of your little hand
held laser powered by a couple of "AA" batteries will do??

Sorry but a hand held laser pointer even a fairly powerful one is going to
have _zero_ chance at flash blinding pilots. And most of us that have worked
with lasers silently chuckle at stories from pilots to say they were. BUT! we
all agree it is a stupid thing to do. It is dangerous looking directly down the
source of a laser beam under most conditions if not all. But there is a lot of
un-informed scare stories being touted about which in it's self is not fair on
the actual laser. I've worked with high power lasers for public displays,
corporate events, rave & dance parties x 300+ almost all these shows
involved crowd scanning (which is still legal in this country) and with some
events with crowds up to 50,000 people. Using lasers from 100mW through to
20W and never had one complaint about flash blindness or disorientation or
eye injury due to lasers. And I can ensure you my eyes have been scanned
across dozens of times on each night. The only known case that I know of
regarding blindness had happen in the eastern block country. Where some
promoter of a rave event used a copper based pulse laser. Pulse lasers are
the most dangerous to our eyes and are the type steal companies use to cut
steal and are a lot more powerful.

Also having heard several reports of motor vehicle being hit over the years,
ever hear of a driver being flash blinded???... disorientated and crashed???...
hmmmm only seems to happen in the air... strange... I mean if a car driver
got flash blindness at 100kph (traveling 100m every 4 seconds, according
to Dr Carl) you would of thought you would of heard of a motor car accident
by now eh'

regards,CS

[multiweb]

Wow!... Picture this: Jean Michel Jarre checking in at Sydney Airport for his next world-wide tour addressing two beefy custom officers already wearing latex gloves: [read with French accent] "Wat sim too bee ze problem officers?" :rofl:This laser thing's just gone nuts.

[erick]

I wonder if this is an example, Rob? - just reported:-

Russian laser show blinds revellers:

Dozens of young revellers were blinded by a laser show at a dance music festival near Moscow last week and doctors fear the damage may be irreparable, the Kommersant daily has reported.

"More than 30 people between the ages of 16 and 30 have ended up in hospitals in the capital with the same diagnosis, damaged retinas, since July 7," the report said, quoting doctors.

"All of them have burnt retinas, you can see scars on them. The loss of eyesight in some cases is up to 80 per cent and it's unlikely it can ever be restored," one doctor told Kommersant.

Festival goers being treated in hospital said they were blinded when lasers intended to light up the night sky were trained on dancers.

"I immediately saw a black spot like the kind you get when you look at the sun," said one of the patients.

The Aquamarine festival took place near the town of Vladimir, some 170 kilometres east of Moscow.

[madtuna]

just think of the massive law suits! 10 ruples and a shiny new potato