Laser Pointer Laws? and you guys think YOU have problems....

[Tannehill]

Hi chaps, hope everyone is doing well.

Recently returned home to the good ol' USA where tornadoes are ripping up the south, the dollar is crumping, and the politicos are piling it on in anticipation of the regime change in November.

I read with interest your discussion thread on the possible upcoming restrictions of laser pointers and sensed a few felt indignation at the presumption of the govt to impose legistlation restrictiing your use of a fairly innocuous device. I share that indignation.

But, please, look what we have to deal with here in my home state.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=731250

And so, you'll excuse me for being distracted as I try to figure out if I need a Kevlar vest when I start working at my next job on a major US University campus.

Regards!

Scott

[smenkhare]

Personally i have been a supporter of ccw. with permit holders having to go through a background check, have no history of mental or drug problems, a character reference, some times an interview and a personal signoff from the chief leo.

i'd have no problem with someone passing all that carrying concealed.

[Tannehill]

Well, I'm all for debate and free opinions on the subject. I grew up in a gun-and-hunting family.

As for concealed carry, well, there are reasonable justifications I suppose. Being a scientist I argue the outcomes - that is, gun violence drops dramatically after gun control laws are enacted - with those who consider the right to carry is a constitutional (religious) issue, not an issue of whether it reduces mortality. We're arguing different issues.

But, an across-the-board policy permitting all college kids to carry? Just because a rogue gunman might appear in the classroom - seems a bit excessive. I'm thinking, a 17 year old living on his own for the first time on a college campus hundreds of kilometers from his family and support system, surrounded by hundreds of others like him also carrying concealed handguns? 'Cause you KNOW, if one of his peers has one, he'll need to get one, mom or dad's thoughts aside...

Combining a first binge drinking event whilst carrying a loaded Glock-in-the-pock is not my idea of the makings for a fun college experience....then again, perhaps we can avoid that by insisting that they leave the gun in their dorm room when they plan to go out partying...lest it give a whole new meaning to 'doing shooters' in college.

Maybe we should start out by issuing paint-ball guns to them all first, as a trial....

but that's just my take on things....

s

[g__day]

Personally - I don't see how giving everyone mass people killers to go to uni makes things safer. Would knowing everyone around you had uzis make everyone feel really, really safe - or really, really nervous?

[smenkhare]

Works in Israel.

I'm not saying just give them out to everyone but to people licensed to carry concealed.
In california eg, you also need to demonstrate a genuine need for a concealed firearm.

To the comment about gun crime after control laws are introduced, our own experience in australia has shown that's not the case. There was already a downward trend before the laws were enacted which continued at the same rate afterwards.

[Tannehill]

So you agree that uni students in the US are probably not, across the board, the best population for arming en masse? In which case we agree, eh?

But what is genuine need?

As for Israel, or Somalia, or Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan, or Russia, many things are different. As for Israel, what is actually beneficial is the military service culture which (correct me if I'm wrong) mandates all youth to service for a brief period, thereby training them and indoctrinating them to weapon safety. And, Israel has always been more or less in a state of seige since its founding, hasn't it? And does Israel permit their uni students to carry concealed handguns?

The only thing besieging Wisconsin in recent times is snow, and mosquitoes but fortunately not at the same time.

s

[smenkhare]

students no. but staff are often armed with Uzi's




giving 1911's out as part of admission? no.
allowing people who have gone through the proper training and licensing? yes.

I can't remember where but there was a shooting at a mall not long ago that could have been stop if two customers who were licensed ccw were allowed to carry inside. (Words of leos in attendance)

[KG8]

THE TRAGIC RESULTS OF GUN CONTROL

We are led to believe that gun control laws are for the benefit of the common people, but what are the real results of gun control?

A look at history will show us that gun control does not benefit ordinary citizens. In fact it makes them far more likely to fall victim to violent crime. After a thorough investigation of the history of gun control, any logical-thinking person can only come to one conclusion - gun control advocates are either ignorant or they are evil.

The only people empowered by gun control laws are governments and criminals. And unfortunately sometimes one is the other. What happens when a rogue government takes control of a nation? History's worst serial killers have been governments that turned predator against segments of their own populations. The inability of innocent victims to defend themselves against their own governments cost the lives of over 170 million of the world's peoples in the 20th century alone.

In February 1915 a secret plan was made to eliminate Turkey's Armenian population. It was not difficult for the nation's new government to set these plans in motion because there were already gun control laws on the books requiring people to register their guns. With this ready information it was a simple task for the authorities to make house to house searches confiscating the weapons of the country's Armenian Christian minority. Homes were ransacked and people were tortured in order to take their arms. On June 26, 1915 the final part of the plan was put into motion. The government announced that all Armenians would be sent to remote camps. Armed guards rounded them up; most were women, children, the elderly and the handicapped.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Ohara/debbie22.htm

[Alchemy]

cant say im overly keen on everyone carrying a concealed weapon.

i do my usual stuff not expecting to bump into a massacre or shooting, so dont feel the need to carry anything, and after 45 years i cant say ive ever been in a situation where one would have improved the situation. ( note i been shot with an air rifle (idiot kid) and had a knife pulled on me once, walked away both times, a gun would have been messy to say the least)

however i respect everyones right to their own opinion on this matter.

[shane shaw]

Now nothing against Americans, but I really believe the society that has evolved around guns and the way America has become over the years is getting far worse.

Although people have to adapt to their environment, I love the simple life in Australia. We of course have our violence and crimes that people can imagine people would commit, but it is still a lot safer place to live in then America. Maybe if we had 360 million people in Australia it is possible we would have the same problems, I don't know. I just wish We could find a solution to all these problems and stop aggression.

Oh well glad to be an Aussie. And I am glad we don't have to worry about our kids taking guns to school.

thanks for the info mate.

[OneOfOne]

A few months ago I watched an episode of Penn and Teller's "Bullsh*t" about gun control....I am afraid this episode really was "Bullsh*t". The classic, IMO, was a woman who went to a market to do the shopping with her father and a guy came in with guns a blazing. Her father was killed in the foray, as were some others. She said that had she been allowed to carry concealed she could have stopped him. So I can imagine her getting ready for the shopping "bread, milk...go to the post office to get some stamps, deposit this check....anything else....better take my gun, I may have to kill someone and become a hero". Talk about sick! How many people would have been killed when a dozen people start re-enacting the shootout at the OK corral...

I was in central America several years ago and I remember in Honduras a number of things that were....well....different. I had to go into the bank to get some cash and at the front door was a sign asking all customers to leave their guns at the front desk and remember to pick them up when they leave. We were also on a local bus and a guy gets on and has to stand. As he turns around we could see the revolver sitting in his back pocket. Also went to the local supermarket and the security guard had a pump action shot gun. People walking around the street with a machette hanging on their belt...

[smenkhare]

So being able to defend yourself is sick? Police can't materialize instantly and some of those hi-cap magazines can hold 50 rounds each. how many would have been killed before the police arrived? As I said, you aren't allowed to carry concealed without a lot of training and other prerequisites.

honduras is nothing compared to argentina. their westfields have SWAT troops armed with M-16's

[programmer]

He obviously wasn't licensed to carry 'concealed'! ;)

[taminga16]

We could all have guns and use Texas as a model, 17 million people and 68 million guns.
Where would it ever stop.

Greg.

[smenkhare]

In texas crime dropped 20% after ccw laws were introduced.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE3D91538F933A 1575BC0A96F958260

whereas in england (which has very strict laws) gun crime has doubled since gun control laws came out.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/02/16/dl1601.xml

these laws only disarm the law abiding, not the criminals.

[Zuts]

What utter out of context rubbish. Why dont you quote gun crime per 1000 of population and so show your figures for what they are. Why not also quote murders by gun for the two countries normalised for the population.

Paul

[taminga16]

Satistics are like Bikini's.
What they reveal is suggestive,
But what they conceal is vital.

(Aaron Levenstein)

Greg.

[taminga16]

Paul, My sincere apologies, I have inadvertetly mis-quoted you.

Regards,

Greg.

[Zuts]

No problem, this was the point i was trying to make :)

Paul

[MrB]

Hehe, reading that I started laughing.... imagine everyone carries guns, the woman see's the guy shooting people at random so she starts shooting him.... someone see's her shooting someone and thinks '****, a mad woman' and starts shooting her... someone see's him.....

If someone with a gun walks into a situation where there are already people shooting each other, they are likely to use it right? But which one to shoot?

Ever seen a pingpong ball dropped in a field of loaded mousetraps? Thats the kinda image I get.
Yeah I know it's not gonna happen like that, 'tis just what flashed up in my mind as I read.

I remember a music video clip, can't remember who it was(Pennywise or something like that), but now and then they flashed up the number of people per year killed in various countries by a gunshot.
Australia was the first mentioned with 10 deaths, Sweden with 13, etc etc. The UK was only a couple hundred or something like that, USA was the last mentioned with over 27,000 deaths.
I have no idea where they got their numbers from or how accurate they were, but if they're only slightly close, and even after 'normalising' it's still pretty lopsided - Not sure that the USA's population is 2,700 times that of ours!

So is it the guns or the people?
Knives are weapons too in certain hands, and I'm sure there are many deaths a year from knives, but can a person walk into a university/school/shoppingmall with a knife and kill 20 people in a couple of seconds? Maybe if they're ex-commando or something rediculous like that.....

Dunno. It's a problem, but not mine 'coz I live in a country with it's own problems.

[Tannehill]

I'm the first to agree with the 'lies, damn lies, and statistics' quote of Benjamin Disraeli.

Shootings and gun-related deaths are very much concentrated in the major urban areas; there less in the 'heartland' of rural America on a per capita basis. Yes, much of the urban violence may be criminal-on-criminal, but that's hard to define. I'd rather they go at it with knives and/or harsh language....

I lived in Mel for a year, and awhile back a comparable US city with roughly similar economic vitality and population. Maybe the US news reports more and the Oz news agencies choose not to report them, but shootings and a death occured almost daily in the US city, often mentioned in passing by the anchorpersons. A shooting related death in Mel seemed a fairly uncommon event and cause for a cut to a talking head reporting from the scene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

This is secondary to the issue of 'rights' to carry weapons. We are of two different cultures in this discussion, clearly. We all agree that we love the sky, though, and let's keep that grounded in our minds; we are brothers!(sorry, sisters too...sexist pig comment, that was, eh? sorry...)

I spent some time searching for statistically valid evidence that increasing gun ownership within the citizenry decreased the crime rate or murder rate. I cannot find the reference the prior poster made about Texas. Can someone find it for me?

Trained police officers in crisis situations rarely hit their targets more than 30% of the time. Usually less, actually. My wife was a cop for two years. They practiced daily. She could shoot the eyes out of a man target at 40 meters with her Lady Browning. (I can still dust her on video games, tho, being less concerned about wounding the odd virtual civilian!) And a gun carrying (sure, trained, practiced, fine-whatever) civilian is going to do better in such a crisis situation?

CHeers

SCott

[GrahamL]

I wonder If the politicians proposeing this would be equally happy with
members of the public (liscenced of course) entering there respective
houses of legistlature with concealed firearms having a wander ,and
maybe takeing a seat in the public gallery ?

a good read
http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2007/12/gunstudy.html

[DARKMATTER]

Interesting debate.

Never really thought much about being pro firearms, generally against them.
But what if carrying was not concealed but on "show".
Do you think this might make someone less likely to try and intimidate someone else with a firearm?

Food for thought?

I'd personally love a world without them but I am reallistic. They are available and the bad guy generally will have one. What to do?

[Tannehill]

Just reading about the NSW prohibition on lasers, now. Interesting how that'll play out in terms of astronomy use.

Most states here allow non-concealed carry except in certain areas (around schools, in many public and private buildings, hospitals,etc) provided the owner has a permit. Carriers can be arrested for "disturbing the peace" by aggressive law enforcement, but that rarely sticks. We had a militia group here in Wisconsin years back that would dispense its members to the local malls to walk around with guns on their hips as a gesture of gun ownership pride. Scared the crap outa the moms walking with their kids....

Interesting data from the FBI (Newspaper: The Atlanta Journal-Constitution) Of the 10,177 homicides that involved guns in 2006, the FBI concluded that 195, or 1.9 percent of them, were classified as "justifiable" - shooting of a criminal by a private citizen in self-defense. [source: The Week, April 25, 2008, Vol 8 Issue 358] Sure, the FBI here can decide how to define such, but it's food for thought. This phenomenon of guns in private hands being a major source of "hero-in-white-hat" deeds and keeping the criminals at bay isn't easily proven by the available data.

Again, a separate issue from whether it is a 'right' to possess and carry a gun. That I leave to our courts. But the urban legend above is what I take issue with....

Regards

Scott

[Ian Robinson]

I heard about that .... absolutely crazy .

Why would anyone want to live in such a country ?

[Cerberus]

i kind of agree with the article, the unlikely threat of one crazy gunman is a lower risk than having a lot of people carrying concealed weapons in the hope of repelling that off chance attack, there are simply too many variables, however try telling that to the victim's families, do you think they would advocate this ccw program? also keep in mind these killing sprees might be few and far between but when they do happen a lot of people are killed and maimed for life, so the question is, where do you draw this line of risk taking?

[OneOfOne]

Here in Melbourne at the weekend a guy fired one bullet at a car, didn't hit anyone. Tonight a guy was under arrest... The news and papers were alive with the news, I dare say it was on all the interstate news broadcasts too...am I correct?

Do you imagine this even making it to the local paper in the US? I think this only shows how complacent people have become in a country where shootings seem to be a regular part of the news. Here it is such a rare event that it gets everyone talking about it. I can assure you that if I need to go to Chapel St at the weekend, it is not going to make me think "I'd better take a gun in case..if I had a gun with me last weekend, I could have fired back at that guy before he even had a chance to take his shot (hmmm, maybe I will become famous and get on Oprah)". I have yet to be fired at or be close to anything where I may even consider having a gun may have been a good idea.