Making Sure Green Lazers dont get "Banned"

[gaa_ian]

As Australia's largest group of Amateur Astronomers we are going to have to lobby the government to make sure Laser pointers are not "Banned"
I believe we have a good case to make that we have a lawful purpose for owning and using laser pointers.
Can we set up an online petition to present to the appropriate minister pre-emptivly.
It would be helpful to propose a solution to the issue of hoon's with laser pointers, trying to "Zap" aircraft.
Public education on the dangers, proper use of lasers, etc ....
Any Ideas how we can do this ?
I am happy to write the petition letter.

[Omaroo]

If we're going to write to our local members about this issue - PLEASE, everyone, make sure that we spell "laser" correctly!

"Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation"

:thumbsup:

[Kokatha man]

I'd second that Ian: how about it Mike? I also think that anyone motivated enough to do this should also at least email there local State and Federal member: the wording for any IIS formulated petition could be utilized for these individual emails too!

Regards, Darryl.

[erick]

And don't expect they will grant an exemption from everything because you are an amateur astronomer ("Back off man, I'm an astronomer!"). Ask that amateur astronomy be recognised as a legitimate and potentially safe use for such laser pointers. I see no way to avoid a permitting system with its paperwork and license costs. You could suggest that the permit fee to be as low as possible, given the relative low cost of the device being permitted. Of course, the permit fee is partly to cover the costs of permitting incurred by the police or government department and that would be independent of device cost. User pays.

[MrB]

Yep, the only way I can see us getting around the inevitable ban is a permit or license, so a lobby to have 'Amateur Astronomer' recognised as a legitimate licensable user of the devices is probably our best bet.

[Starkler]

In Vic it is already illegal to have a laser >1mw and yes you can apply for a permit at a cost of something like $180. No thanks!

[notch]

I was livid after watching a news interview with a national transport representative who, when asked what legitimate applications do green lasers have, he answered "none".
Some people (highly educated ones as well it seems) are obviously unaware of some of the pertinent uses of green lasers that amateur astronomers are familiar with.
Not only for astronomy do I use mine, I have also found an excellent use for it at my place of work (alumina refinery) to identify difficult to access pipes, valves etc to maintenance personnel.
We need to stick together on this one.
I agree with Ian that a petition would help, if not for education alone.

Notch

[sheeny]

Ian,

Have a look at:

http://www.gopetition.com.au/

May be a worthwhile tool to use?

I fully support being proactive about this, so we can have some influence over what will affect us. Education is an important part of this as well. Not only for amateur astronomers so they use their lasers safely and responsibly, but for the "legislators" so they appreciate that there are legitimate uses for these devices. e.g. Pointers for education and outreach, and laser finders, etc.

Al.

[GTB_an_Owl]

signed it

geoff

[Omaroo]

Don't know what program you watched, but the news article I saw on Ch9 had the reporter describe the lasers as "astronomy-type lasers".

[sheeny]

Guys,

There is already a petition going:

http://www.gopetition.com.au/petitions/anti-laser-ban.html

I didn't realise until Geoff said he signed it!!!:lol:

Al.

[asterisk]

A sample letter for lobbying politicians from our point of view is in:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=30216

I will re-attach it here.

[[1ponders]]

Signed

[asterisk]

Signed

[Davros]

signed

[astroron]

This may sound stupid:( but is that a online letter or do I print it and send by snail mail:shrug:
Ron

[asterisk]

The petition is on-line.

banning lasers general.doc (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=40655&d=1207025561) is a word document which you can paste into an email and send it off to:

The Hon. Bob Debus MP
Minister for Home Affairs
Parliament House
Canberra ACT 2600
E-mail: Bob.Debus.MP@aph.gov.au (Bob.Debus.MP@aph.gov.au)

and if in NSW

The Hon. David Campbell, MP
Minister for Police
GPO BOX 5341
SYDNEY NSW 2001
E-mail: david@campbell.minister.nsw.gov.au (david@campbell.minister.nsw.gov.au )

and your local representative(s). Or you can post it snail mail if you wish.

[astroron]

Thankyou Geoff.
Done
Ron

[Stephen65]

I wrote a letter to Minister Debus and sent it off yesterday. I think individual letters make the most impact if you have the time to write them.

[White Rabbit]

signed

[Glenhuon]

Sent, to both ministers and our local member, Kay Hull.

[astroron]

Sent A letter to Bob Debus , and received a reply from his electoral office that the letter would be forwarded to the Minister.
Ron

[circumpolar]

Signed

[gaa_ian]

Sorry about the mis spelling of LASER :rolleyes:

Thanks folks for getting on to this so quickly, I am very encouraged by how it has all come together.
I also have resources for doing a press release that goes out to dozens of media outlets all in one hit.
I would suggest that a series of statements by those in the Amateur community with the greatest public exposure and credibility levels would make quite a difference.
With a suitably crafted article preceding these statements it can have a huge impact !

I notice that a link to the petition can be put on your own site too.
I will see what I can do with this. (I have signed it too !)

[Omaroo]

Not sure why the rolling eyes. You're looking for credibility with these people - spell it right.

[Dobman]

Just signed the petition.
I help conduct Adult education classes in Observing the night sky with a couple of other IIS members & we'd be lost without the pointers. Pointing your finger up in the sky just isn't the same!!
I also use mine as my main aiming device on my Dob, I love it:)
I never let it be used by inexperienced people and always stop using it if a plane approaches

[Ric]

I figured that they might get bored with reading the same thing over and over again so I drafted my own letter and sent it to both of the ministers.

Now we'll have to wait and see if they listen to us or not.

Cheers

[ngcles]

Hi All,

Ric wrote:

"I figured that they might get bored with reading the same thing over and over again so I drafted my own letter and sent it to both of the ministers."

Yep, I feel exactly the same way Ric. I too have drafted and sent my snail-mail letters tonight!

Unfortunately, I think the best we can realistically hope for is either an exemption (or alternately an exception or proviso) within the legislative provision, or maybe a permit to possess (Government makes more money!) or to register users/possessors. Unless the legislature acts on them, misuse will undoubtedly become more widespread and the next thing they will be shone into homes, at moving cars etc -- just watch!

They are an indispensable tool for working at Sydney Observatory I can tell you -- particularly where so many of our guests are from overseas and English is not their first language all in severely light-polluted conditions.

Best,

Les D

[Gargoyle_Steve]

Signed the petition, and took advantage of the optional "500 word comment" box to point out uses as a teaching aid within astronomy.
(Used approx 350 words to do so.)

[Ric]

I heard on the late news that a plane at the Canberra airport had a laser shone into its cockpit the other night.

At this rate even a million letters is not going to help. Sadly the pollys will just go with the most votes and we probably wont even get heard.

Lets hope that some common sense prevails.

[KG8]

Come on, lets not be lazy, (Lasy?)
We don't need them, there a gimick anyway. Spotting scopes are better and there is always the red dot finder is you truly don't want to know your way around. :whistle:

[asterisk]

If everyone shared the same level of expertise as KG8, then there would not be an issue with the use of lasers. However, as a relative newcomer to amateur astronomy, I have benefited greatly from the knowledge of more experienced members of the astronomical community who have used laser pointers to explain many things to me.

Further, I think that KG8 is missing the point of both Simon:



and Les:



Lastly, Chris is making the point that if we are to be credible with our representations to the various levels of government, then we should not leave ourselves open to criticism on other non-astronomy aspects such as spelling and grammar.

[Omaroo]

"Red dot finder if you truly don't want to know your way around" - huh? I happen to way-prefer a good quality red dot to fast-slew with than anything else. Both eyes open - so easy and fast to go to a general area of the sky - no less accurate than a laser. It isn't obtrusive like a laser (to imagers especially), but then again they aren't easy to share sky positions with other users on the field either. Lasers are educational - they allow people to share information. They also allow lasy (or is that "lazy"?) people like me to do a quick and dirty polar alignment off someone else who's already done one for the evening (thanks Geoff!!). :lol:

[taminga16]

Yet another plane "attacked with a laser" overnight, rather than sit around in Canberra and discussing banning lasers the authorities should be making a concerted effort to have the perpertrators of these crimes into court as soon as possible and wack them with the biggest stick that they have ($30,000 fines for starters), And wouldn't that give something for the media to report.
The prescribed penalties are already in place but they are not a deterrant if not acted upon.

Greg.

[astroron]

Chris take the mote out of your own eye before taking the splinter out of others.
Re spelling
"Red dot finder if you truly don't want to now you way around" -
Ron

[Omaroo]

LOL!!! Touche!

Fast-typing "typo" - apologies. I've fixed it - because I actually care how I present written text, and rarely leave mistakes for others to see.

[mark3d]

just like the other person fixed their error when it was brought to their attention. so whats your point?

[Omaroo]

What's YOUR point? We're on the same side! MY point is that if we want something done by these politicians, we are in a position that we must beg for their audience. In the past I've had a lot to do with sending petitions off to these people, along with complaints and letters of suggestion over problems we had with our own land and businesses - and the overwhelming feeling I got was that they will NOT take an individual or group seriously if the correspondence they receive isn't of quality. "Their problem - not mine" doesn't wash.

I also went through this recently in NSW with the Garden of Stone National Park, near Lithgow. It was going to be turned into a damn "wilderness" zone by a minority of idiots who want to keep me and my family out of there - even to walk! Local pollies received all sorts of non-sensical complaints and badly-constructed argument from all manner of people over it. The main message we had back from them was "present it professionally - so we can do the same".

I'm only trying to HELP our collective cause here - not point out errors of individuals. As much as most people think that correct penmanship is of little importance to their own lives, others disagree and will ignore you for it. Unfortunately, the audience you wish to hear you is of the latter bent. Present professionally - be treated professionally.

[astroron]

Some of us can not fast type:(,and still make mistakes, this makes us human(;)
Ron

[KG8]

Listen, the comments in my earlier post were just designed to bring a little humor and reality to the situation. A thousand or so signatures from amateur astronomers on a petition isn't going to go very far in oposition to the Federal aviation authorities and all the rest of the complainers now is it?

Personally I think we can do without them, but having said that, they can't be seen unless your close to the line of sight so as long as you don't use it around a bunch of poltically correct squeelers it wont be a problem even if they are banned.
Banning hooter never stopped its use now did it :lol:

As for those who use them at observatories and other public events, well they will have to just go back to whatever they were doing 2 years ago before the fad started. I'm sure the world wont collapse just because some Jap tourist can't find the southern cross.

[Garyh]

Hry leets ban eroplaens instaed!
LOL!

Seriously any new technology can be used for purposes they were not intended for and some uses are just plain criminal...
lets not go backwards guys..
They are a great pointing/educational tool that has its place when used responsibly.

[dugnsuz]

Despite all the spelling errors, looks like it could be all over Rover!

http://au.news.yahoo.com/080402/21/16c36.html

[Omaroo]

Maybe it'll come down to licensing. Still - much easier to blanket-ban.

[mark3d]

heh sorry no need to argue amongst ourselves is there :)

it sounds like the issue is the importation of them. restricting that might meet their objectives meaning no need for licenses etc.

i want to buy one but it might become a white elephant if i got the wrong one :(

[astronut]

Chris,
Whilst I agree with licensing lasers for legitimate use, I'm not prepared to pay for the license (an inevitable addition, when pollies are involved) for a $50 laser.:mad2:;)

[Peter Ward]

Just got back from the USA, but cannot believe the media hype and hysteria associated over this.

Having been "laser flashed" myself a couple of times I am totally perplexed as to why this is even an issue. These brightish green flashes from the ground are certainly no where near as bad as, say, the flash that goes off while having your photo taken by a traffic camera....(clearly this doesn't distract motorists enough to cause vehicle accidents...after all there is a revenue issue here!)...and are at worst an annoyance to aviation.

But to suggest this would bring down a heavy jet in the 'burbs beggars belief!

Utter bilge and a total and complete over-reaction....and yet (likely) another freedom lost in the land of Oz.

[mark3d]

not sure if anyone is a Crikey.com.au subscriber but this article looks interesting:

Today’s laser abuse summit in Canberra convened by Customs faces much tougher issues than fools pointing bright beams of light at aircraft

not being a subscriber thats all i can see ;-)

[Ric]

Hi Peter, as a person who works in this area I was wondering if you know if there is a film or tint that could be used to coat the inside of the cockpit windows and block out any laser flash.

I'm sure in this world of amazing technology there must be something that can do the job.

Just a thought I had this morning.

Cheers

[Suzy_A]

According to ARPANSA (Australian Radiation Protection and Nuclear Safety Agency):

Lasers are classified according to the hazard associated with their emissions, as defined in the Australian/New Zealand Standard AS/NZS 2211.1:2004 Safety of Laser Products Part 1: Equipment classification, requirements and user's guide:

Class 1 and 1M (magnifier) lasers are considered safe under reasonably foreseeable conditions of operation;
Class 2 and 2M (magnifier) lasers emit visible light at higher levels than Class 1, but eye protection is provided by aversion responses such as the human blink reflex. Class 2M lasers can be hazardous if the beam is viewed directly with optical instruments;
Class 3R (Restricted) lasers produce visible and invisible light that are hazardous under direct viewing conditions;
Class 3B lasers produce visible or invisible light that is hazardous under direct viewing conditions; either they are powerful enough to cause eye damage in a time shorter than the human blink reflex (0.25 seconds) or the blink reflex is by-passed due to the invisibility of the beam. Laser products with power output near the upper range of Class 3B may also cause skin burns;
Class 4 lasers are high power devices capable of causing both eye and skin burns, their diffuse reflections may also be hazardous and the beam may constitute a fire hazard.For ALL lasers of class 3R, 3B and 4 in ALL Australian states and territories, a licence and registration is required.

This is what the law says in WA (where I am):
All lasers (including laser pointers) in Western Australia must comply with the Australian Standard AS2211; this includes both correct labelling and classification. Any laser pointer in Western Australia of power output greater than 1mW should not be used or possessed by members of the general public."

A friend who is the laser safety officer at a university wandered around the uni recently with a laser power meter and ended up confinscating about 90% of the laser pointers he came across. Most were red and a few green and most were 3 - 5 mW, although some were over 20 mW.

A 20 mW shone into someone's eye will cause instant and permanent damage to their vision.

What has happened in the past has been that, while illegal to sell or possess one of these laser pointers without the appropriate licence, the relevent State and Federal authorites have generally not worried about it. Hell! I can buy a 50 mW laser from a well-known Australian website! That will poke your eye out no problems!


However with the various knee-jerk reactions resulting from various jerks mis-using laser pointers, they are starting to enforce the laws that have been around since the 1970's.

How many times have you seen a 6 yo kid playing with a laser pointer while their parent(s) ignore them.

Unfortunately there are too many kids with impaired vision around these days...

Please note that I am also upset about all this - I have ... um quite a HeNe and diode lasers around the place - but I use them responsably and would be very upset if I am suddenly classified as a 'crim' because of my illegal lasers...

But hey, the same thing has happened lots of other times - a lot of law-abiding firearm owners became instant crims when the law changed, so did most people making biodiesel in their back yard when the excise law changed.

[Peter Ward]

Many windscreens on commercial jets already have a thin gold coating which is used for windshield heater system. That said, a tertiary would probably not be a viable solution.

Most cheap laser pointers diverge quite quickly due their not so good optics and atmospheric dispersion, hence after several thousand feet they loose the potentially retinal damaging effect they may have at just a few metres.

In effect they become cheap searchlights. Nothing more.

To suggest they... as one poorly...no...make that stupidly...advised NSW Premier stated... they could bring down an aircraft is just nuts.

There have been over 300 document laser events yet there has been not one subsequent aircraft safety "incident". The SMH even reported an "infrared" laser attack on an aircraft....wow! those guys must have had very keen vision!!

As an aside....Police use I/R lasers in their LIDAR's (speed guns). Maybe they'll be banned too! :lol:

[Sausageman]

The Professional Pilots rumour network (PPrune), has quite a few posts on this subject, some not so good, but a majority of them are as confused as us over the damage they can do and get confused over mW and MW.

There are some interesting posts on the power of lasers also.

You will have to register to view the posts though.

I don't want to see the lasers banned, just limited like firearms, vehicles, alcohol and such.

Mike.

[programmer]

Hi Susan

Some good info, thanks. But I think it's reality it is quite hard to cause 'instant and permanent' damage with a 20mW laser. You'd have to hold them down as the blink reflex would kick in. You'd also have to focus it in the one spot for maybe half a second (guesstimate) and be up very close, say < 1m. The NOHD (Nominal Ocular Hazard Distance) would probably be 30-40m, but focusing it at any more than a couple of meters would be very hard.

Also a true laser pointer (1mW) is almost impossible to cause eye damage with so probably harmless for the kids, but still not a great idea to let them loose.

Without doubt however, leaving a higher-power laser around for kids to get hold of is a BAD thing.

This is a good read (http://www.dansdata.com/nexus.htm) (DansData WickedLasers laser review)

Take care

[Ric]

Thanks for the point of view Peter.

It make me wonder exactly who is advising our wise politicians and what other agendas do they have.

Cheers

[Suzy_A]

About 90% of laser pointer sold ARE well over 1 mW. Having actually tested many with a laser power meter, most are 3 - 5 mW and it is not hard to find a 10 - 20 mW laser pointer for $5 - $10 in a shop, although it almost certainly will be labelled "<1 mW".

As for eye damage - it doesn't happen very often as the 0.25 second blink reflex is the worst case - most people will blink and divert their eyes much faster than this, so even a 5 mW will usually not cause damage. However a 10 mW probably will and a 20 mW certainly will.

While these are very low power, their power density is actually very high.

A 1 mW laser may have a beam width of 1 mm or 0.78 mm2. This equates to a power density of (1 mW x ((1000mm*1000mm)/0.78mm2)) = 1274,000 mW/m2 or 1274 W/m2. This is almost exactly the same as the sun at it's zenith and which will cause permanent damage after about 10 seconds exposure - which of course doesn't usually happen as most people have the common sense not to look directly at the sun that long or to blink and divert before there is any damage.

The eye will focus 1 mm beam down to about 20 um, giving about a 400 x increase in power density.

A 20 mW is about 20 x brighter than the sun and will usually cause permanent eye damage before the blink reflex can work.

While not that rigorous, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety) has some quite a good info.

Incidentally, a number of RAAF (and probably other military) aircrew have suffered permanent eye damage while flying past foreign military naval vessels, particularly those of a former (current?) world super-power, although they would not have been using run-of-the-mill laser pointers...

Susan
Radiation Safety Officer
Senior Physicist

[Peter Ward]

Susan...interesting analysis...but you might want to check your math. The sun is a broad spectral source and its approx 1Kw per sq m flux is spread over a very large spectral range.

Lasers are spectrally very pure, and sure, in their particular frequency, can rival old Sol...but in terms of total power are not very energetic....hence to get the same flux over a *very* narrow band they need to be rated in 10's (if not more) of watts rather than milliwatts....


Cheers
Peter

[Suzy_A]

Hi Peter,

As you are probably aware, in SI units, Power (in watts) is defined as energy (in Joules) over time (seconds). Similarly, watt per square meter or a joule per second per square meter is power per unit area (m2).

A beam of photons at 1250 watts per square meter will carry the same amount of power per unit area and hence energy per unit time and area irrespective of the wavelength, spatial or chromatic coherence.

What is different of course is how the energy is absorbed (or not) when it strikes some surface. At both far ends of the spectrum, gamma and radio, the energy in the photons are not well absorbed by tissue and so quite high flux levels can be tolerated, although with gamma radiation the small proportion of energy that is absorbed does cause severe damage - only 3 joules per kilo whole body exposure (ie total 200 joules wb) can kill someone by wiping out their bone marrow. Drinking a cup of hot coffee will deposit more energy than that... RF radiation tends to cause thermal heating and the human body can absorb a MJ or so of evenly distributed heat without too much damage.

In the case of incoherent sunlight, certainly the UV part of the 1000 W/m2 (about 50 W/m2 I think?) is absorbed in the cornea and lens (causing in extreme cases short term things like snow-blindness and in the long-term cataracts etc) and the IR part is also largely absorbed before it gets through the eye. Even so, something like 850 - 900 J/s/m2 will be absorbed by the retina by looking at the sun - and this is independent on the coherence and wavelength apart from the UV and IR that I mentioed above. Obviously the energy will be much less than this as the aperature, ie pupil, is only a few mm across. Also due to chromatic, spherical etc aberations in the eye as well as the angular size of the source (the sun) which results in a fairly large image, the energy per unit area will be relatively low.

In the case of a coherent (or relatively) source like a diode laser, the energy per time per unit area for a 1 mW laser is, as I said, about the same as the sun, but due to lower aberations and aperture not being an issue, the energy per time per area will be somewhat higher, but still within the same order of magnitude or so, of for looking at the sun for the same time.

In the case of a 20 mW laser pointed at a pilot or even at just anyone at a distance (probably at more than anything more than a dozen metres or so), the time that the beam is in their eye would probably be too brief to cause permanent damage, not due to their blink reflex, but rather as it would be almost impossible to hold the laser steady enough and aim it well enough at the target, ie 3 - 7 mm pupil. Also of course at a few hundred metres the beam will have diverged up to a few cm across, thereby reducing the energy per unit area.

Am I still coherent or has the red wine and late night got to me?

[KG8]

From the mainstream story we have the political "spin" designed to convert public opinion toward a certain perception.

"There has been a sharp increase in the number of laser attacks on planes"

"authorities say it is hard to stop the weapons being brought into Australia"

The key words, the trigger words, are "attack" and "weapons" and when such stories are run long enough and from enough sources public opinion turns. This is why it is important to watch as little TV as possible because regardless of what we think, our perception about the world will be progressively altered, bit by bit, until we are believing all sorts of crap that has no basis in reality.Most people think they are too smart to be fooled but the truth is these saturation techniques work. In the example of the lazers we know it's crock, from personal experience and our common sense knowledge of the technology. But 99.5% of the people have no such knowledge and will eventually view anyone with a lazer as a potential mass murderer.

What other lies have we been told that we take for granted as truth?

[asterisk]

From today's Sydney Morning Herald (somewhat edited):

"THOUSANDS of high-powered laser pointers are already circulating in Australia, making efforts to ban them problematic despite concerns that they are highly dangerous when directed at aircraft. ...

Customs will make recommendations to the Minister for Home Affairs, Bob Debus, tomorrow that are likely to pave the way for stricter regulations and increased penalties for using laser pointers in a destructive fashion but stop short of a ban. ...

Peter Somerville, of the Australian and International Pilots Association, said the new regulatory regime should put the onus on those found in possession of powerful lasers to prove they are being used for legitimate purposes, such as astronomy."

From our point of view, a much more satisfactory resolution of the issue.

[Omaroo]

Excellent pick-up here Geoff.

KG8 - I agree. There is a underlying current of social engineering that the media owners feel they need to be in charge of. It is the ultimate in power. Worrisome, no?

[erick]

Making sense to me - many thanks Susan! :thumbsup:

[Peter Ward]

Well said Susan...as coherent as a He-Ne laser! :)

I see what you are saying with regard to power per unit area.....but I suspect there is also the rub...assuming a 100mw beam diverges to say 200mm after a kilometer or so (this approximates my pointer's performance) then the flux in our 1mm beam is being spread over pi*r**2 in area or about 31,000x the area....hence if a
person with say a 6mm pupil is "flashed" we'd have about 5000x less energy going into their eye than say over a few metres...about 0.02 of a milliwatt?

[Ingo]

I hate that governments will go as far as to ban low output lasers.

Low output lasers have divergence that will cover an entire airplane in a green dot as powerful as your normal lightbulb at that distance. Surely not enough to blind a pilot even temporarily.

[Nightshift]

You can banter all you like with respect to retinal damage, joules and mw's but lets face it, has anyone actually tested it?

Well here goes, I have a 10Mw 532nm Green laser and I live opposite a large hill that has a lookout on it, according to my GPS this lookout is 3000 mtrs from my rear deck and certainly has line of site to it. No houses, roads or airports are near this lookout, green tree frogs can just close their eyes.

As I am convinced that my eyesight will not be harmed by this experiment, I am going to perform a test this weekend, I certainly would not look in to the laser under 10 mtrs, in fact under 50 mtrs, however, I would certainly risk looking at it from 3000 mtrs. I will drive to the lookout with a torch, shine the torch at my house and (via mobile phone) have my wife fire the laser at me (at the torch), I suspect I will see a vaguely annoying green halo around a moderately bright but not blinding green dot.

I will publish my findings here in the next few days.

I for one will not bother with licensing or any such ban, I am a responsible user and the authorities can go jump, our lives are already way to controlled by these morons. An old bumper sticker said "If you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns", they outlawed guns and guess what? People are still being shot. Prohibition has NEVER worked and never will. It is impossible to police and therefore a storm in a teacup IMHO. These are valuable tools, I use mine on my ETX90 to guide my 12" DOB, I highly recommend this method of guiding as a cheap alternative to expensive pushto systems if you already own a goto scope or cube. It has the added benefit of naked eye pointing as well, good when trying to find exactly what your viewing.

Dennis.

[Ric]

Yet another report on the news last night where the Premier said that they have the capability to bring down a plane and that he want's a complete ban on all lasers. Astronomers and other professionals would be exempt.

Two thoughts come to mind.

1. If a laser is so effective, why do terrorists need to spend tens of thousands of dollars on ground to air missiles if all you need is a laser worth $100. :shrug:

2. As amateur astronomers are not mentioned in the exemptions does anyone know where I can buy an online degree that says I am a professional astronomer.:lol:

Cheers

[tornado33]

When you shine a laser through a telescope, you get a collimated beam that goes MUCH further without diverging.
Take a look here. I shone my green laser through a 6 inch telescope and painted a design on a green water tank some kms away. Of course I knew what I was doing and made sure it only staye don the tank and not near any of the houses. The big concern is if idiots realise this abnd start shining more powerful home made lasers using 250 milliwatt laser diodes found in cheap DVD burners, through telescopes, they could impact airliners flying at 30 000 feet.

So what happens if someone uses a telescope and laser in such a manner against high flying aircraft, will they seek to ban telescopes too? I will be a double criminal then as I will not be handing in either my laser or telescopes even if they are declared illegal.

A .303 rifle has a range of up to 5 kms, so anything with long range has the potential to be mis used. What the govt must do is have tough penalties for the mis-users, not for everyone else possessing the equipment.

[caleb]

i only have a 5mw green laser, it was my second after one of those tiny red ones. I was interested in getting a extremyl powerful one. My 5mw cant shine a beam in the sky and pointing at stars. it can though go over 1km, 2 maybe.
So... where can i get a cheap ($0-$80) and powerful (50-200), also a nice colour(which includes green but excludes red. (maybe)).

[asterisk]

Cheap and powerful for $0-$80 - ebay
Not as cheap, powerful and dependable - dedicated laser pointer sellers such as http://www.laserpointerking.com/main.asp,mode,1,,.htm
Even less cheap, but local - MyAstro, Bintel

[Suzy_A]

Hi Peter, and also Nightshift,


a few more rough calculations...

of course the power density (energy per square meter) will fall off hugely as the beam diverges. By the time it has spread out to 200 mm diameter from 1 mm diameter, the energy per unit area will have fallen by a factor of (100X100)/(0.5x0.5) = 40,000, so the 1 mW 1 mm beam will have fallen from an effective 1250 w/m2 to the equivalent of about 40 W/m2.

While will not enough to cause eyesight damage, it will still be very bright - remember that for a laser, the rated power is the radiant output power - not the electrical input power.

A 100 watt incandescent lightbulb is only about 3% efficient, so there is really only about 3 watts of light coming out, the rest is waste heat. So a laser with a diverged 200 mm beam will appear about as bright as a 1300 watt lightbulb at 1 metre...

If you are flying at 10 metres of the ground at 250 knots in a crosswind and in the dark and someone flashes a 1.3 kW lightbulb in your face, you may lose a little bit of concentration as well as some night vision...

[Gargoyle_Steve]

Dennis I applaud your decision to go "hands on" with this, the scientist in me is bubbling with enthusiasm at this experiment. I'm keen to see what your opinion is after performing this test.

:thumbsup:

[cfranks]

Signed.
Not very much activity on it though, I am only #54 to sign.

[Glenhuon]

I got a very nice snail mail reply from Kay Hull to my email the next day. Assuring me that she agrees with our concerns re the legitimate use of lasers. No reply from the two ministers as yet.

Bill

[KG8]

Getting action out of canberra would not be too much different than dealing with a local council, all that would change would be the scale. I would imagine anything over $50k would get the ball rolling. Anything under would no doubt be taken as an insult. Especially by a federal minister. :)

Of course if your big enough you can offer a lifetime seat on the board of your company. @ around $150k/ annum.

[Vermin]

Ban confirmed: http://www.abc.net.au/ra/news/stories/200804/s2209153.htm?tab=latest

[Alchemy]

too late, already more or less banned here in vic, its just a knee jerk reaction to a few idiots who will not be brought into line by these regulations.

we live in a society that has fear pushed at it all the time as though
everyone is a terrorist.

Funny thing though as someone who has been a bowhunter for over 30 years i own equipment that would easily kill anything that lives on land in this country, and i could use it and if you were standing 20 meters away you would hear virtually nothing. No licence required and your 10 year old son could buy all gear required no questions asked.:whistle:

so we are banning bright lights ...... go figure.

[skwinty]

Pity its not the right bright lights.;)

[tornado33]

In what no doubt is seen as a futile experiment, recently I shone my 100 milliwatt green laser though the 10 inch scope at the biggest laser reflector Apollo crews left on the Moon, after looking up a map of its location, then, Id quickly take away the laser and look throuhg the scope in the hope of seeing a return 4 secs later. I saw nothing. The NAS's resident mirror maker George estimated that even properly focussed the spot might be several Kms across by the time it reaches the moon, and the reflector is only about a metre oor so across if that, so thats a tiny part of that 100 mw to be reflected back. later on I read that the lasers use to actually do this from Earth are around 4 watts or so, much more powerful than mine.

Still, it was interesting to try. Looking through my 6 inch scope along side, I could clearly see a bright green dot projected on high Currus clouds shining the laser through the 10 inch scope, as a 10 inch wide beam is much less divergent than a 2 mm wide beam.
Scott

[caleb]

I signed it, but I do think it is not going the help the situation.

[dugnsuz]

Signed.
I don't use a laser, but will happily fight for the right for YOU to!!
BTW I was signer #95.
C'mon lets get busy - sign!!!

[Peter Ward]

So the madness progresses further....

Unfortunately it seems shining a bright coherent light at some of my fellow aviators is being perceived as some sort of hazard. I beg to differ.

Perhaps twits who do not dip their car's high-beam at night should be goaled for a couple of years as well.

Next to go will be the display of any "white pointers" particularly at Swanbourne beach (well known the military aviators in Perth!)...a true risk(ay) aviation hazard if there was one!

[richardo]

Signed...
But no doubt we, those who use things as they should will pay...

[caleb]

Hey guys, I posted a link to the petion on laserpointerforums.com and explained it.

[Bucky1379]

Hi Guys

I didn't realise things had gotten so serious. I have signed the petition and I am going to write to my local member (although I just hope that doesn't put me on some list). I am, however, under the impression that normal people had some rights left and to have knee jerk rules brought in because of a few idiots doesn't seem right.

This is the letter I'm sending. I put part of it in my petition signing but the allowable 500 characters allowed me only about half of it.

Sir

I am very disappointed with the newly introduced laser pointer licencing 'solution' that is intended to stop a few idiots mis-using these instruments.

These lasers are wonderful astronomical teaching and telescope guiding tools and the people using them as such only have them on for short periods and would turn them off immediately if a plane was in the area yet these are the only people being penalised by this licencing fee. The idiots who buy them for use in pranks and 'practical jokes' will still be able to buy them from overseas and will simply choose to not pay this deterent licencing fee. Simply put, it is detering the wrong people.

A nominal licence fee is fine if the government wants to keep some sort of track of the lasers used by the legitimate users but no fee, no matter how high it is will help manage the illegal users and these are the ones that I hope the government is really chasing. I believe that the only deterent is very high fines for the mis-use of these lasers and this would also have the benefit of raising the revenue that the government seems to be seeking without the side effect of alienating the legitimate users.

Yours etc.

How does this sound?

[venus]

very interesting debate, can someone invent a laser that shuts of when it shines on a lighted object?

[asterisk]

I received a reply to my letter from Tanya Gadiel, The Parliamentary Secretary for Police, in which she states:



Now that the media has quietened down, I wonder if this issue will be relegated to the "too-hard" basket?

[PeteMo]

To be consistent, are they going to ban lasers used by building contractors, surveyors etc?

[PeteMo]

Instead of high fines (what happens when they can't/won't pay?), maybe they should be charged under anti-terrorism laws and serve 5-10 years, say in Guantanamo Bay.

There was a spate of laser pointer being used at soccer matches in the UK by opposing fans to blind goalkeepers or key players.

Just banning them won't stop the morons, so the rest of us get punished for their stupid actions.

I don't see how an over-stretched Police Force can possibly enforce this. Just look at the arsenal of weapons recovered from armed gangs, including Tazers!!!