Green Laser Advice

[styleman333]

Hi Guys
Due to the obvious banning of green lasers soon due to the idiots shining them at planes, i think it would be wise for me to finally invest in one immediately. Any advice what wattage i should get , where would be the best place to buy and what aircraft to target ?:D :P :lol:. lol no just jokin , i just know id be kicking myself if i missed out . So yeah any advice would be greatly aprreciated

Thank so much and hope u are all keeping well..

Steve

[dcalleja]

Steve
I have a 5mA one and that seems quite sufficient for pointing out objects & stars. Its a shame that this is happening as it has to result in a ban eventually.

[erick]

My 5mW laser (yes, I have a license from the Victorian Commissioner of Police!) does all I need. Yes, it is a bit dim in city skyglow, but it can be seen. I get the sense that the rating of a laser may not give the best indication of light output, especially amongst the cheapies on eBay. Some have not been happy with the 5mW lasers they obtained and have gone for higher wattage. Remember, as it gets colder, you need to keep green lasers warm. If the light dims in the cold, it may not be the batteries, but the laser itself. Keep it in your pocket to keep it functional.

The following could be of interest:-

http://www.telescopes-astronomy.com.au/astronomy129.htm

"NEW "LEGAL" 1MW GREEN LASER POINTER Most states in Australia have updated, adapted or legislated new laws for owning a Green Laser Pointer. The laws basically state, a 1mW (milli-watts) or less power output is legal. Greater than 1mW, in most states, requires permission from the Commissioner of Police - call your local Police Firearms Dept. You may need to have a good reason to own a laser greater than 1mW. South Australia (my state) still has no procedures in applying for permission for the more powerful than 1mW Lasers. There is a new system for classifying the lasers and their outputs. Most people are aware of the older system as showing the Class II Laser (<1mW) & Class III (>5mW) Lasers.

The most popular size for use in astronomy has been the 5mW Class IIIa Laser Pointers. It works well even in the suburbs and is powerful enough to show a larger crowd, in a darker location. Exceptions to this is when the Moon is out, washing out the night sky. Observatories and the like organistions, still hold sky tours when the Moon is out. In this case, a more powerful laser is needed and the 20mW is most suitable.

We are currently trialing a 1mW Laser (legal throughout Australia) to be available for astronomy. Ensuring the quality, and modifying the make up of the laser, has improved the brightness of the beam. This Laser will be best serving astronomers who use them as FinderScopes, as well as pointing out objects to someone next to you.

Benefits of the new 1mW Laser include:

- cheaper price (less than a 5mW)
- longer battery life
- more durable
- legal

Let us know if you are interested and we'll keep you posted.

Beware of crap lasers!"

[erick]

My humble suggestion - this is probably not the place for joking on this matter. As I recall, in some threads last year it became clear that authorities were following discussions of lasers on this forum.

[cahullian]

Go buy a light saber steve, you know you want one he he he

Gazz

[Omaroo]

From discussion on the national news this evening - there'll be a push to ban all lasers - period.

Thank you. fools of the world, for stuffing it up for the rest of us who use them for a legitimate purpose - teaching.

[Stephen65]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/laser-snipers-hit-planes/2008/03/29/1206207485440.html

The retards are going to mess this up for everyone.

[styleman333]

Yes i know its not a joking matter , i just couldnt help myself.....

Thanks all for the advice , its unforunate imbeciles wreck it for everyone , thanks guys
:thumbsup:

steve

[snowyskiesau]

After watching the evening news, I might be placing an order for a green laser pointer tomorrow before they're outlawed.
Which astronomy supplier carries these besides Andrews? Bintel no longer have them in their catalog.

[StarLane]

Make sure you don't get a cheapie.
The reason why I have never got one??, the market is full of cheapies out of China with no UV filter. You don't want extended exposure to high end UV rays from a laser bouncing off your retina. I'm not talking about accidently directing it into the eyes, but looking at the laser beam in the sky as normal and on an angle close up, this still projects UV into your eyes. The more expensive well known brands have UV filters, apparently???
I value my eyesight more than that.

[norm]

Which astronomy supplier carries these besides Andrews? Bintel

Geoff,

Try Astro-Opticals at Crows Nest.

Get 'em before its all over red rover!!!

This is another case of a minority of morons spoiling it for legitimate people.:mad2::screwy:
I hope common sense prevails and the law does make exceptions for those who have a valid reason for using one and its not just a blanket single law.

Norm

[erick]

As I understand the Victoria situation, there has been no success in gaining a general exemption - such as, for example, if you can prove you are a member of an astronomical association you are exempt. Rather each individual makes their own case to be licensed to use the "prohibited weapon".

[Stephen65]

The problem is that when exceptions are made they aren't usually made based on commonsense like - yes you can use one for legitimate astronomy. Instead you'll get a whole beaurocratic structure of licences, approvals, applications and application fees to pay for the cost of the half a dozen public servants whose sole function in life will be to process permits.

[mark3d]

from wikipedia it seems most places they are banned has an exception for 1mW.

a good quality 1mW might be a safer bet for long term legal use?

[erick]

Saw this on an ABC message Board tonight:-

>>There is nothing more frustrating in astronomy that than unsuccessfully trying to identifying an object in the night sky to a companion by waving your arms, pointing fingers, describing and gesticulating. An elegant, simple and very effective solution to this problem is to use green lasers pointers to point out objects in the sky.

Green laser pointers are high technology gadgets that are becoming more and more popular in astronomy. Not only are green laser pointers ideal for pointing out celestial objects, they are also very useful for aligning telescopes and for atrophotography.

Why green laser pointers

Green laser pointers are the preferred laser pointer color for astronomy because green is the most visible laser pointer color. The reason why green is more visible is the human eye is most sensitive to green light. The other reason is the effect of light in the earth's atmosphere. Light is visible in the sky when the atmosphere scatters it and higher wavelengths are scattered more than higher wavelengths. Green is a medium wavelength so it scatters more and is more visible than longer wavelengths such as red.

Other applications

Using green laser pointers to point out celestial object to people next to you is not the only application for laser pointers in astronomy. A green laser pointer can also be mounted on a telescope using a bracket or by holding the laser by hand in the groove parallel to the telescopes optical axis. The green laser pointer beam clearly shows where the telescope is pointing and the object being viewed through the telescope.

A green laser pointer mounted on a telescope can also makes aligning the telescope to a celestial object much faster and easier.

How powerful should the laser pointer be?

Green laser pointers can range in power levels from 1mW all the way to 200mW so deciding which power level to use can be tricky. The points to consider when choosing the power level for an astronomy laser are

-The number of people star gazing with you. If it is just one person, a low power such as 5mW will be suitable. If you are stargazing with a large group of people who will not be standing next to you, the laser needs to be more visible so a high power level such as 100mW would be suitable.

-The level of ambient light. If you are stargazing at dawn/dusk, during a full moon or in built up areas where there is a lot of light pollution, a low powered beam such as 5mW would be harder to see. You would generally need at least 50mW or more in this kind of situation.

Higher powered laser pointers are not always better because any glare from them can easily ruin your night vision and can provide a distraction. Many stargazing nights have been ruined when people have been paying more attention to the new and exotic high power laser used to point out objects than the actual objects themselves.

Caution

Deliberately pointing a laser at aircraft is a very serious offence in every country so avoid star gazing near airports and do not use a laser when there is an aircraft in the section of the sky being viewed.<<

http://ezinearticles.com/?Astronomy,-Star-Gazing,-and-Green-Laser-Pointers&id=1003630

[erick]

And here is what we are up against. Read this reply and groan!

==================

<<<AFAIK, lasers are only visible when they hit something and reflect off it. Obviously it's not hitting the star which is being pointed out, so I'm just wondering how your astronomer mate uses the device. I thought, initially, that you might be talking about groups in a planetarium or something.>>>>

not true,a 512nm (green) laser beam is quite visible in low light conditions down to about 30mw.
my little baby is quite stunning at night as the beam is quite bright out to many kilometers. i have used a handheld 400mw hercules laser and its almost like a jedi light saber,very stunning really

[mrsnipey]

I was making the most of Earth Hour last night, trying to catch a few stars when all of a sudden a freakin jet plane flew right through my line of sight. Scared the bejeezus out of me, and I thought to myself, If I'd had one of those green lasers on my scope, would they have thought I was shining it at them.

There were a couple of numpties on the news tonight obviously aiming them at planes, but do the authorities take into account the fact that the rest of us are looking at the stars (i.e. up) and that sometimes planes do fly through our line of sight.

[Stephen65]

I think the probability that a laser being used to align a telescope will randomly intersect the cockpit window of a passing aircraft is exceedingly low - unless perhaps you set your telescope up due north of a runway.

[erick]

I would think that the judge would take it into account when pronouncing sentence - I haven't read the specific law, but accidental versus intentional doesn't mean you are not guilty of something.

My experience is that a plane close enough to be affected would normally be heard. I guess an exception would be in high winds, but who is out gazing in those conditions. A second point is that I don't see why the laser would be on while one is intently observing or imaging. Normally one is looking at the sky at that time and should observe the plane approaching your beam in time to turn off or direct it elsewhere.

[g__day]

Three thoughts:

1. A 5m Watt laser isn't very powerful or clear to on most nights in a light drenched surburb in my experience.

2. Point out a star to someone and sooner or later you might see it move and realise its a plane 20 km away! Try not to be pointing it out with a laser if you're not sure its a star! Cargo planes fly late at night sometimes, try not to align on them!

3. That little red laser in your CD writer is far more powerful, cheaper and dangerous than you ultra powerful zap green death ray. Maybe someone should ban the red death rays from hacked apart old CD writers. I've seen a video of them popping balloons at a distance!

There's just no lifesaver in the gene pool I'm afraid...

[asterisk]

We are now into the second day of the media focussing on the inappropriate use of laser pointers. A 'knee-jerk' reaction from our politicians is a distinct possibility, seeing a complete ban on the laser pointers, to the disadvantage of the astronomical community.

I would recommend contacting the relevant elected officials (Bob Debus Federally and David Campbell in NSW) pointing out that we do use these devices responsibly and that any legislation include a licensing provision for the responsible use of laser pointers.

I have attached a sample letter that IIS members may like to adapt.

[Rick Parrott]

Just wanted to get some feedback from people on these devices. I have a great laser pointer that I use to show friends the night sky, and I love it!

Today in the news however, we read yet another incident of people pointing these things at aircraft!

I would point out (no pun intended!) that I live near a very busy airfield, with training flights held all the time. We are always very careful with the device, listening and watching for aircraft activity and we don't EVER point it where it shouldn't be pointed!

My concern is that the Government is going to outlaw these devices, so that the rest of us will pay for the irreseponsible behaviour of others! :( Whilst I understand their reaction, I just wonder how you other star gazers feel about this, and also how it affects the stores that sell these!

[mark3d]

if 5mW is borderline in terms of usefulness what do people recommend? 10mw or higher still?

i would want it to work with a small group (up to say 8 people) in the suburbs.

cheers

[chrisp9au]

I would be more than happy to register my laser if it means I can continue using it. There is a legitimate issue with lasers distracting pilots. Restrictions on their use should be considered, and implemented in a way that allows registered users to use their lasers in a responsible way.
I live 80km NW of Tullamarine, and have no problem with not using my laser whenever I am aware of aircraft anywhere within my viewing area. I guess the issue there is being aware 100% of the time, but heck, it's only turned on briefly whilst getting a general direction on a target, then it's switched off when I move to my finder. The responsible use of lasers should not be affected by the actions of idiots, but responsible users should have no complaints about registering their lasers, in the same way that responsible gun owners register their firearms.
We may be amateurs, but we should/can take pride in being seen to be responsible amateurs.
Just my two bobs worth!
Cheers:)

[erick]

Here is what it entails in Victoria.

From the list of prohibited weapons in Victoria is the following:-

"Laser pointers
Hand-held battery-operated articles that are designed or adapted to emit a laser beam with an accessible emission limit of greater than 1 mW."

To be licensed, you need:-

Application for the Chief Commissioner of Police's Approval for a Prohibited Weapon. (Time and energy around completing that including the usual 140 points of identification and certified copies of identification documents. Having a suitable referee. Giving acceptable reason(s) why approval should be given for you to possess and use the prohibited weapon.)

An application/licence fee of $154 (when I applied in 2007) for a three year licence.

Meeting storage requirements of a "locked cupboard, cabinet or safe of sturdy construction" etc.

Here is the URL for documents:-

http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=139

[chrisp9au]

Thanks Erik,

The paperwork? no problem,
The storage? no problem,
$154 for 3 years? We have a problem!

:eek:

[Ric]

A good way to sort out these twits who shine lasers at planes is to tell them that they have to become members of an Astronomical Society and attend at least six meetings and three club nights in a row.

It would be to much for them mentally to do this and they would no doubt lose interest in the idea of a laser pointer.

A blanket ban is stupid and just a typical knee jerk reaction.

Cheers

[rmcpb]

Get ready for it though. Its how the pollies all work when they can target a "small" group and be seen to effectively handle a situation. No different to the gun laws really............ Just because some people shoot others with guns the legitimate owners have so many hoops to jump through they eventually give up. The pollies say its good to get rid of them (the guns that is) but most of the shootings are done with illegal firearms. Why don't we need to get special permission to use cars after all I once saw a reference to about 70 people a day either killed or critically injured by cars. Now that would be a test of the pollies intestinal fortitude.

We are a small group and sometimes that can be a problem.

[asterisk]

I agree. I have received my first reply to the letter/email from my earlier post. My State Member's staffer was aware of the laser problem, but was not aware of the uses we have for them. She is passing the letter along to the Member with a recommendation that he make supportive representation to the Police Minister.

This is something we all need to do (especially at a Federal level for non-NSW residents)



The more representations we make, the better our chances. We cannot just confine airing our grievances to this forum.

Cheers

[AndrewJ]

Just for info
Got my latest Jaycar dogalogue today
They are advertising a new <1mW green laser and specifically mention it being legal and good for astronomy
$100
Dunno when they will have stock
but lets hope they aren't banned before they become available.

Andrew

[AstralTraveller]

OK, time for a silly question. Do green lasers produce UV? How? How much? How do I know if a pointer is 'safe' (ie has a UV filter)? Any insights are most welcome.

[coldspace]

As the old saying goes,

Outlaw guns,
Then only outlaws will have guns.

They just caught a guy up here with dozens of high powered rifles, boozooka and the usual stash of drugs. So much for the gun laws. I think the sujestion of only club members getting them was good. One of our local shops up here just started selling 50 MW units so get one while you can. I use a 30 MW and it is very good in moderate light pollution.

Matt.

[g__day]

How soon will it be before folk start printing fake power ratings - I see alot of < 1 mw rating signs comming out - and how would the police test power rating in the field? If folk simply remove their power rating stickers or swap them across lasers of different ratings - how would police determine if one was near, below of above an arbitary limit?

[citivolus]

Green lasers use frequency doubling in an interesting process to convert an 808nm IR source light to 1064nm, which is then doubled in frequency to 532nm. If they don't have in IR filter in place, that IR light will pass and actually has a much higher intensity than the green light that you see.

Note that this is IR light, not UV. You could detect it using a suitable camera, but it will need to pass IR and block visible light. I'll give mine a try using one of my IR capable cameras. It needs to pass light at both 808 and 1064nm if you want to be certain.

[citivolus]

Most of the manufacturers can't even agree on what the real output from the laser is, and many of them are too sloppy to care. Granted, many of the 20mw lasers floating around out there these days are probably more likely 5mw being oversold anyway...

Someone could theoretically employ many tricks to disguise the output of their laser, including throwing in a dud set of batteries, putting in an in line filter, to as you suggest changing the labels. Short of the police getting laser testing gear (unlikely) I think they will just have to accept the class that is written on the label.

[g__day]

Exactly - I am aware many lasers don't reach near their stated limit - but if a laser label is missing or obscured - what to do?

[citivolus]

The labels were of such poor quality on all but one of my laser pointers that they have fallen off. I guess maybe I should pick some up (http://www.lasersafety.co.uk/acatalog/Class_2.html) just to be safe.

Edit: They are all class II, really. Well, except for the IIIa with messed up collimation that might as well be categorised as class 1.