Is there an aether?

[xelasnave]

It seems the Greeks had an idea that space was made up of an aether which from what I can tell semed to be their way of saying space comprised of many particles:shrug:..aether seems to have been thrown out as old hat but I ask given the stuff that flies around out there is not the Greeks idea more valid than a space that is seen as now somewhat empty?:shrug:.

Here is one of many articles pointing to what I would think is the aether of the Greeks however popular science says there is none..so I ask is ather really an old outdated concept:shrug:..

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080307182745.htm

alex:):):)

[Dog Star]

Interesting thought, Alexander. Hmm, I'm probably going to be shot down in spectacular fashion here, but the Greeks proposed that all matter was composed of, or a result of, the interplay of four basic elements ie. fire, water, air and earth. Taken literaly, that would suggest that most things were composed of warm, bubbly mud. The ancient Greeks were of course not that stupid and intended that such elements were of a philosophical as opposed to physical nature. Ok, the science is a "little fuzzy" but given the meagre state of their measuring instruments (often consisting of little more than a pair of eyes and a blunt knife) some of their attempts to explain the world around them were actually fairly concise. Their concept that aether was what made up anything not composed of the 4 basic elements is, as you suggest, not a bad description of the nature of space itself and as such is probably worthy of more respect than is usually given it. I suspect however, that we're sailing a two man boat here. Incoming!!

[Zuts]

Hi,

Not only is it important to be right, it is important to be right for the correct reason. If the Greeks are right then I dont think it was for the right reasons. More just a lucky guess.

Paul

[Glenhuon]

Move over Alex and Dog Star and hand me that spare paddle :)
The Greeks saw the cosmos according to the knowledge and theory of the times, much the same as we do today, so in effect they were correct in assuming that there was no place in it that was "empty". There had to be something that was undetectable in those times. (Etherial).

Bill

[avandonk]

Alex is dead right about the aether as usual they do not understand! It was shown to not exist by the Michelson Morley experiment. Google it I am not your Physics lecturer!


As for the ancient Greeks they were as smart as us, and just as much stuck in their times as how they thought about their current paradigm.

JUST AS WE ARE!

Bert

[Zuts]

Hi,

I disagree with you absolutely.

I think it is easy to belittle the accomplishments of the 20th century, contributions made by literally millions of scientists to build a fundamental base of knowledge that will stand the test of time.

Fundamental knowledge that unfortunately I and probably you know very little about.

Paul

[Kokatha man]

Now that's what I like to hear, some good old fashioned faith!

Seriously though Paul, before being quite so scathing about (any past) ethos or its' paradigm; and ignoring for the moment the somewhat tautological aspects of your statement; it would be wise to do some thorough research and appraisal of that which your comments appear to debase.

That is, of course, aside from "a fundamental base of knowledge that will stand the test of time" that Ancient Greek science and philosophy has contributed to our current "knowledge".....

Regards, Darryl. - ps I'm a blackfella with Irish and German blood: no Greek though, but I did buy a Greek fella's house - and I do like the olives and oil I get from the trees he planted!!!

[omnivorr]

..and what was the "fundamental base of knowledge" on which those "millions of C20th scientists" built??

[Kokatha man]

Hey dere Russ - youse ain't startin' to stalk me agins, is yer?!?

Cheers, Darryl.

[Dog Star]

Zuts, Old Mate, I don't think it was anyones intention to belittle 21st century science (it certainly wasn't mine) but rather to suggest that some of the older schools of thought are worth revisiting from time to time. You only have to look at some of the current controversies in modern science eg dark matter and string theory to see that modern science is not as cut and dried and "total" as we might wish it to be. There's always more to be learnt. Just for the record, I don't claim to understand a lot of it myself. Cheers.

[Zuts]

Yes well,

The Greeks had a 'fundamental' knowledge of atoms. Of course they had no real scientific method and Plato believed that it was possible to deduce all there was to know from an armchair.

I guess thats why there are no Bikini like incidents emanating from Ancient Greece. Probably also why they had to take rations to the Moon, a dearth of Souvlaki shops.

Paul

[Kokatha man]

As I said Paul, some reading of Greek history might dispell some of these "myths" - if you'll pardon the pun!

Cheers, Darryl.

[Zuts]

No problem Darryl, you may like to read this as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomism, not much of a tool though if one wishes to split one.

Cheers Paul

[omnivorr]

Zuts me lad, a sense of proportion might be in order..

As Sir Isaac Newton said, "If I have seen a little farther than others, it's because I stood on the shoulders of giants."

...google "humility" while yer at it , you'll find it somewhere between "humbug" and "Humpty Dumpty"

[skwinty]

Stephen Hawkin wrote a book called "On the shoulders of Giants"
He implies that the advancement of science is through incremental changes"
This includes the work of the early Greeks.
As for the Michelson-Morley experiment, it failed to prove or disprove the existence of the ether.
It was made of full and half mirrors and an eye piece to measure 1/4 wavelengths of light inteference patterns. It was called the Michelson interferometer.
It was used very successfully in various esoteric experiments, such as the butterfly bending the steel girder and remains my favourite piece of equipment. Very simple and easy to make.:thumbsup:

[omnivorr]

...as for the original post, ..I don't much care, aether way :P

[Kokatha man]

Hi again Paul, read through the wiki link you supplied: potted, but nonetheless a good canvass of particular aspects, as are most wikis.

Couldn't help appreciating the thread (pardon the analogy) that ran through this article; linking these quite profound ancient postulants and their claims to current debates/thinking/theorizing.

My only reservations re wiki-type precis' is the absence of relational factors; whether it be in a discourse on the (lasting) relevance of an ancient paradigm, or (other) quite (seemingly) different topics.

Anyways, good vigorous exchanges! An I'm givin' you yer teeth back omnivorr!

Cheers, Darryl.

[omnivorr]

... fangs Darryl the omni's bin bit'ard ter swallow lately ;)

[avandonk]

Sorry to be such a pain but how many of you could

Design a simple amplifier any sort will do, logic circuits would almost do

Fix a basic manual gearbox let alone use one

Fix your washing machine, fridge or dunny

Do you know how the ignition system in your car works?

Align a spectrophotometer

Fix the television if it fails or partially fails apart from a bang on the side.

I could go on and on and on ....

You are all as ignorant as the last lot
A vast mass of humanity without a clue!


We as individuals only have the scantiest knowledge of all that is currently known.

Look at the current crop of the smartest guys in the room (financial idiots), paying themselves multi millions and they have really lost the plot and WE pay for it. Remember it IS your money Ralph.And YOU let them get away with it AGAIN!

Anyway to get back to the point the aether does not exist. By aether a medium for EM waves to oscillate in. I should buy you all a book on basic Physics. You can borrow it one at a time. This knowledge was slowly extracted from nature by careful experiment and the application of mathematics by peer review.


So many twits just say that something is wrong by no less than the wave of a hand. Show me and the rest of the world the proof for any assertion.

I did a search on Google and found mainly threads doubting the MM experiment. Is faith superseding fact?

Bert

[skwinty]

I assume you consider yourself excluded from this bunch.
Matter of fact. The Michelson-Morley experiment was a huge embarrassment to Michelson that when he won the Nobel Prize for physics in 1907 he never made one mention of the experiment or its result, which was a perplexing "Null".
As for the list of can you do's, The answer is an unequivical YES.:P

[omnivorr]

avandonk...your point is?

can you tell when the yams 200 miles away will be fit to eat?..where you'll find the water along the journey? ...how to teach your children to remember these vital facts? ..."received wisdom" has its limits.. whether photospectometry or "what day is best to fill your petrol-tank?".. just like domain theory of magnetism or electron spin.. these, and all, are ABSTRACTS.. do you have a Large Hadron Collider in your kitchen??... no, you have a TV or web-browser... mebe you have access to your employers infrastructure.. but when you rinse it, .. ya nappy's just the same as any .... so you can read "Oz 'lectronics today" and buy commodity IC's from DSE... ....phrenology was THE "science" of its day....
.......but what IS it that you're actually decrying here??

....I learned to drive in a 3ton Dodge "the gears are in there--somewhere--just matchya revs".... synchro wat?? ... bridle yer emotions mate, then tell us where yer so adamantly planting yer feets... yer stirrups in a twist.. that high-horse yer on is off its rocker til ya do..

[Kokatha man]

Hi Bert - I've re-read your last posting below and am not sure whether this is a personal diatribe against all that have contributed to this thread or a specific response group.

I am confused: Alex said - "It seems the Greeks had an idea that space was made up of an aether which from what I can tell semed to be their way of saying space comprised of many particles....."

and then you say Bert - "Alex is dead right about the aether as usual they do not understand! It was shown to not exist by the Michelson Morley experiment. Google it I am not your Physics lecturer!"..... followed by the post with..."Anyway to get back to the point the aether does not exist....." which makes me even more confused (perhaps that was meant to read "...point that aether does not exist..." or whatever - I don't resile from anything I've posted , nor do I think it makes me a candidate for the basic physics book "must read" role.......

But perhaps I've been posting on this forum for too long today after last night (I'm very tired)

ps - (1) I can design and build a simple amplifier - valve, transistor or IC

(2) Can do the gearbox job but won't fix yours Bert - fact is I was under the car with the auto trans half out during our searing heatwave but had to call it quits and bring in the specialist - dang, if I'd built that pulse generator tester from all my old man's gear I disposed of I could've done the whole thing myself

(3) Naturally: the dunny was the worst when the bowl literally split asunder about 3 months ago - and wanting to preserve the tile flooring etc and some vestige of my bank balance I had to do the lot myself

(4) Yes: had to diagnose the failure of the Hall Effect tranny in the Missus's unit a while ago and save us a bundle by finding the $30 Siemens equivalent to press fit in, instead of the $300 "auto spare parts" one

(5) No re the spectrophotometer, but have a generalized understanding of the principals and mechanics, and reckon if I'd had the appropriate training etc it'd be a doddle

(6) Of course, grew up with electronics with my ol' man - but I'd hafta say that todays' units are mostly all cards and thro-aways internally

(7) So could I.....

(8) I believe the same as you re the "financial idiots".....

Anyways, me missus just came in to acknowledge my "know-all" status and ask me to fix something else; so' I'd best be getting on....!

Cheers, Darryl.

[Dog Star]

What's the bet that right now Alex is rolling about on the floor, holding his sides so as not to burst from laughing? Yet another great IIS thread! I blame my own lack of intelligence for failing to understand exactly what Bert was on about though.

[skwinty]

Perhaps it should be Bert for goodness sake Avabonk;)

[Peter Ward]

I feel for Bert....as the old saying goes...It is much better to keep your mouth shut and let people believe you are a fool than to open it and confirm the fact...

That said, we are not all as foolish as he may think....the 10 point challenge was laughable.

1) prefer valves as they don't clip, 2) spent more time pulling syncro cones out of my '69 Fiat 124, 5 speed box that driving that heap of sh.. 3) all three and them some 4) aligned quite a few self guiding spectorgraphs....etc. etc. We are not all dill's.

The Michelson-Morley experiment was a pivotal result which helped Einstein to ponder special relativity....and later general relativity. The aether does not exist. If it did your Tom Tom GPS's wouldn't work very well nor would the strap down laser gyro's in B747's.

We could design an experiment that may detect the tooth fairy, if it fails should we still think she's out there? Nothing abstract here. Move along.

[omnivorr]

than an unproven hypothesis..

"We could design an experiment that may detect the tooth fairy, if it fails should we still think she's out there? Nothing abstract here. Move along."

...had the atom been split when Einstein postulated the most famous equation in our cultures history?... or did that fairy later render your argument toothless?

...the problem begins when ancilliary functional entities contort their own importance with respect to the corporate "mission".. it's known as the janitor-complex, but as equally applies to nuclear physicists as any other.....

...the abstract is rarely a mere quantum to fit an overall or labcoat pocket..
....Einstein had his revelation looking out a tram window.... he was no smug commutor.... much less some incompetent crowd-mover .

[skwinty]

[quote=Peter Ward;309501]The Michelson-Morley experiment was a pivotal result which helped Einstein to ponder special relativity....and later general relativity.
quote]
To add to this is a little known fact that Einstein built on a little known theory of Galileos called the Theory of Relativity.
Okay, Galileo was Italian and not Greek;)

[Alchemy]

is there an aether...........

time, energy, motion, matter, space and ..... thats about it for the physical universe.

[Zuts]

[QUOTE=skwinty;309506]

Hi,

Yes, we should all recognise the work of these geniuses, however the fact is that Galileo postdates the ancient greeks by a few thousand years and if you want to talk about a Golden Age of science if you count all the scientists at work in the late 19th and 20th centuries then the total you arrive at would far surpass many times over the entire population of ancient Greece and Italy in galieo's time.

So yes, the work of the ancients can be held in awe but it should be seen in perspective of the huge body of work created in modern times.

Paul

[rally]

Dare I wade into the quagmire ?

As I recall it the Michelson-Morley experiment set out to prove there was an aether/ether that specifically travelled in a particular constant direction.

They failed to prove that this was the case, although a later experiment performed with more modern technology I read about some years ago did come up with some anomalies that appeared to relate to either the rotation of the earth, the moons orbit or its orbit around the sun (can't recall now).

However there definitely is an ether or flux of sorts.

At any given point (and depending on where you are) there are either sub atomic particles - neutrinos (particles), "photons" (particles or waves ? - nobody can make up their mind so they take an each way bet), gamma rays etc etc and other EM radiation (and anything else we haven't yet detected - that the new super collider might ?) travelling in all directions, including through the planet - so such a 'flux' exists and could easily be construed as an ether.

Just not the exact type that Michelson and Morley sought to find.

Rally

[sjastro]

Peter,

I hope those GPS's are corrected for frame drag effect.:)

Steven

[Kokatha man]

Hi DS - I've been laughing through the whole lot too; but I think, given your posting, from an ever slightly different perspective than your own!

Alex's "starter" certainly fired Zuts to give us his two-bob's worth and frankly, though it could be construed as steering "off-topic" - my contributions were really gentle (hopefully) admonitions along the "baby in the bath-water" lines, directed at Paul.

Alex (imho) was postulating the Ancient Greek concept of the existence of "aether" as analogous to a determination, in the link article he provided, description of "The universe is awash in a sea of neutrinos..."

Whether he was merely "fishing" for his own amusement or otherwise was of no import to me whatsoever: I confess that I make "fair game" of whatever element or aspect of an open discourse I care to make!

However, notwithstanding the somewhat pedantic nature of my particular proclivities; I do insist upon an iota or two of intelligible grammar when one contributes to a debate (regardless of one's patois) - on the basis that, say in this particular instance; Bert first says he agrees with Alex, and then contradicts (from logical presumption) in his next sentence, the very premise that Alex has just put!

Subsequent comments by Bert could have easily been construed as bordering on the offensive; but I think that everyone involved took it in the spirit of "vigorous, open debate."

What you may possibly have missed, Dog Star, in your "blaming yourself for your own lack of intelligence for failing to understand exactly what Bert was on about" was, apart from the dry repartee within Peter's response and the somewhat coarser "therapy advice" humour of skwinty's; the (imho) deliciously elegant prose, humour and textual construct within omnivorr's response!

I like Bert, he's like me, a bit full of himself; but Bert, me ol' china, there's one or two things us particular types of fellas have allways got to keep in mind when we impart our (self) importance to the masses: grammar-wise we've actually got to be able to appear compos mentis, and there has to be a good, old fashioned, liberal-sprinkling of humility to our mien!

That's more than enough semantic discourse/dissection for me on this topic, except to say that if this aforementioned "sea of neutrinos" is seen by some as the ancient aether; I for one am perfectly at ease with their perspective!

Language, and the ability to organize and communicate our thought processes; is by far our most powerfull tool: cf the destruction of languages apropos the subjugation of cultures to illustrate this point.

Regards, Darryl.

[Dog Star]

G'day Kokatha Man, have been enjoying your posts. Not a lot of humour gets past me but I think some of mine may slip past unoticed at times. My lack of intelligence ran aground on the broken grammar and stream of consciousness style of Bert's posts and in trying to decode exactly which camp he'd decided to boil the billy in. No offence Bert, but I don't think I was the only one. Even good mate Kokatha Man found some contradictory statements and head scratching elements there. Oops! Probably shouldn't have mentioned "elements." :rofl:

[Kokatha man]

Hi DS - are you serious or Sirius, or just being the cheeky Pup? I like Bert too - ever since he agreed with me in that Galileo thread, and quoted Nelson M: heck, someone like that's gotta be ok in my books!

As I said, regardless of original intent; I reckon laughing gas, rather than (a)ether, is the order of the day!

Cheers, Darryl.

[Dog Star]

Pity we live so far apart, Darryl. Reckon we'd enjoy blowing the froth off a couple of cold ones. BTW, just how far apart are Sirius and Puppis?:whistle:

[Kokatha man]

Now, now Dog Star, you and I both know, as dog owners, that wherever you'll find a Big Dog (Canis Major) you'll allways find a Poop (Puppis.)

My genteel and sheltered upbringing makes me refrain from any more uncouth language on that subject; so I will pretend that you're asking another AA fella a reasonable and polite question about the distance between Sirius and The Pup - about 8 seconds, I think.

Cheers DS, Darryl.

[Kokatha man]

:rundog:Just in case this line of discussion "runs" away from the topic too far Dog Star, I thought I'd best clarify a few points of misconception re that Poop next to the Big Dog.

Some ill-informed people think that this resulted from the carve-up of a former enormous constellation known as the "Ship" - but as you may educe from my typing, this was actually a typo!

Argo was, as the name would automatically suggest to anyone with a modicum of nous, actually a dog too; so there is considerable speculation amongst astro-theorist as to the actual causal origins of this gigantic celestial "specimen."

Naturally, precessionists tend to automatically "dump" on this, given their particular "bag" - but though light-shift analysis may "sample" possibilities, there are no other significant "movements" in this region of the sky.

Further to this, there is no evidence that either Pluto nor Uranus have had any impact on the region by their (unlikely) presence therein, despite what cahullian may or may not have inferred in the "since the IAU decision to demote Pluto..." thread!

Hope this clears the matter up DS - and by the way Bert, on another note; looking at all that paraphenalia hanging off your scope, I'm expecting a much, much better Jewel Box image next time: if not the AAASPCDI* may very well confiscate your equipment for cruelty to defenseless mounts!

Cheers, Darryl.

*Australian Amateur Astronomers' Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Dumb Instruments

[Peter Ward]

I suspect Albert did *commute* to the patent office.

As for my people mover status....a thinly veiled insult.... but true to a point....as I regulary move several hundred people along at about Mach 0.86 and some 6500 nautical...oddly enough often using a GPS AND ring-laser gyro's....thinking of which..

General relativity predicts that the atomic clocks at GPS orbital altitudes will tick faster by about 45,900 ns/day because they are in a weaker gravitational field than atomic clocks on Earth's surface.

Special Relativity (SR) predicts that atomic clocks moving at GPS orbital speeds will tick slower by about 7,200 ns/day than stationary ground clocks.

The satellite clocks are reset in rate before launch to compensate for these predicted effects.... now if there were an aether the above GPS corrections simply wouldn't hold. Yet they match theory *extremely* well.

Our TomTom's work and we find the nearest Pizza Hut and LAX runway 25L appears out of the fog, and we all breath a sigh of relief.

Who said Physics wasn't cool :)

[avandonk]

Quote

"I like Bert, he's like me, a bit full of himself; but Bert, me ol' china, there's one or two things us particular types of fellas have allways got to keep in mind when we impart our (self) importance to the masses: grammar-wise we've actually got to be able to appear compos mentis, and there has to be a good, old fashioned, liberal-sprinkling of humility to our mien!"

Kokatha man

Point taken on board!

I am a bit like the Bishop who was very proud of his book on humility. Sloppy grammar is very poor for adequate communication. I am sorry for any offense to anyone.

The post was done in haste and a bit of anger. And anyway the dog ate my homework. I think I have learned a bit.

I think I will leave it at that.

I stirred the pot without being personal. I hope.

Bert

Till next time!

[omnivorr]

" We could design an experiment that may detect the tooth fairy, if it fails should we still think she's out there? Nothing abstract here. Move along. "

my comments were directed to your statement (above quoted) in post 25.

I did not say that Einstein was not a commuter... (specifics Peter)

Please note the emphasis added by me to the above quote from your post to which I previously responded... It was with no knowledge of your "day-job" that I made my remarks, but in light -lightly at that cliche persona you assumed.

...in your last post you did not address the point I made about the fact of Einstein's theory preceeding the means to its verification... in answer to your specious "tooth Fairy" remarks.

I'm sure we are all almost as pleased with the fact that your "Tom Tom" 's are competent as you are .... or the avionics tech's are... but perhaps they don't quite so feel the need to crow about it..... after all, it's only their "day job".

[avandonk]

Never mind omnivorr I am sure if you were a hairless cat Peter would still rub you the wrong way! It is his job to make us all feel better because we are not like him.

Tell me Peter when was the last time you Captained a 747. My seventh brother is a Captain for Qantas. Whoops wrong a Check Captain. I took him flying when he was only sixteen in 1979 in a fully aerobatic aircraft.

Bert

[omnivorr]

Hi Bert! No offence taken at all and none intended either from me.

Yes I am a mangey ol toothless tiger ;) ...and I dunno wot that Bishop said to the Actress, ..but in the same vein, ..if I were asked to design a new paint job for QANTAS.. it'd be a big blue one.

anyone whose selfmeasure is by the seat he sits in is headed for a bum steer. :P

[Peter Ward]

Ah...I see your point. Sure you make a null hypothesis, but when it is not verified by the data then it is likely the proposed notion is wrong...or at least needs serious modification...is this not how scientific method works?

That said much theory is built on what came before, and without the MM result Albert may have had to ponder a tad longer :)

[Peter Ward]

Bert, I've not met your brother....but see he started with QF about 2 months before me and is on the "747-Classic" fleet.

I'm an F/O on the 747-400 fleet (which you may be aware on which there is a non- vertical promotion policy). I'll be moving to the A380 in August, and probably will have to take a A330 command a year of two after that.....BTW I have command endorsements and ratings on the B767 and B747-400....and had about 3000 hours as a Captain with a regional carrier
before QF.....and logged my 15,000th flight hour at the beginning of this year. I also note I got my private license about a year before yours. Your point?

So...when/where did you get a post-don and teach Phd's ?

[omnivorr]

Bert, .. it takes a big man to 'mea culpa', however slight the error.. ..that damn dog ate my homework more times than yer can :poke: ....

Peter...
" Ah...I see your point. Sure you make a null hypothesis, but when it is not verified by the data then it is likely the proposed notion is wrong...or at least needs serious modification...is this not how scientific method works?
"

...is this a veilled concession or a cop-out? .... teeth-out

I've met an AWE-insiring multitude of people who are better than me in every way, Peter, ..but you sofar are not one of'em.....

I'm just a battered lil ego cast up on a shingle, singin my song to thwart the sirens call....

your " So...when/where did you get a post-don and teach Phd's ? " is mere...... deafeningly mere...

....it inspires complete apathy in me... so void is it of any worth....

.... I bet the cabin staff all scramble to be the LUCKY one who gets to scrub the toilets rather than trade grimaces with you.....

YOU may be at 40,000ft but yer flyin solo... no-one wants your Fokker Friendship..... I look forward to the Air Crash Investigation Report about the time when a novice crewmember unthinkingly took a mirror on the flightdeck.......

.....do ya hafta ring the RAA when you get a flat tyre toots?

Cheers Bert

Rusty

[omnivorr]

Zuts, post 11..
" Of course they had no real scientific method and Plato believed that it was possible to deduce all there was to know from an armchair.
"

I cannot in all truth deny my own distaste for the blemished/tarnished version of Plato that I recieved from 'academe'.. but latterly I've esteemed him less with the scales of pedantic ignorance/arrogance blighting my vision....

Take his 'shadows on the wall of the cave' in which we dwell..
..recent neuro-studies report the 'wired' patterns within the visual cortex, and soforth... not having these technological conveniences Proff Rama Chandra et al have the privilidge of, nevertheless Plato enunciated a theorem of cognitive relationalism with respect to sensory postulates, as he interpreted them... to wit:

by sensory deprivation and arbitrary stimuli without cultural/experiential significance, the human mind 'percieves' patterns not dissimilarly between subjects thereto exposed.... hence 'shadows on the cave/ intracranial wall'.... ie, Plato's reputed 'ideals'....exist.. indeed, some 2 1/2 thousand years ago, this man.. perhaps rubbing his eyes too roughly, or p'haps experiencing a migrane headache, ..or whatever.. caught sight of the geometry within.. that now technology can "elucidate" for all who are interested..... watching the tv from their armchairs.....

irony eh?

nevermind the armchairness of astrophotography.. or colliders :P ....or 747's pffffffft!!!!!!!!!!!

[iceman]

When did this thread get so personal? :rolleyes:

This isn't the place for it.