synscan noob help

[Starkler]

I had my shiny new heq5pro out under the stars the other night trying to come to grips with the hand controller and the idiosyncrasies of this mount. It has version 3.12 firmware.

After a couple of tries I got an acceptable two star alignment but there is some weirdness in the operation of the goto function.

1) I asked the mount to goto the gem cluster, so the mount starts slewing to the left (viewing from behind) and then the dec axis attempted to grind my refractor diagonal into the southern tripod leg :scared:

2) I later manually slewed to saturn, then I thought I might invoke 'goto Saturn' to see how far the goto would be off reality. Well the mount did find saturn but only after doing a meridian flip and pointing from the other side.

Is there something in the setup which can make the mount choose the more sane of two pointing solutions to a target?
Is it related to choice of alignment stars, their order, or having a park position set?

[Starkler]

Anyone? :shrug:

[Merlin66]

I've got the V2 firmware on mine, but I'm not sure that has anything to do with your perceived problems.
If the scope has been set up for correct location, and time; roughly aligned to the SCP and a 2 star "alignment" confirmed, the rest is automatic!
Other than trying to drive the scope into the tripod have you experienced any other issues??

[h0ughy]

you need to set up the location for a start, date time and location, two star alignment (you will have to slew manual after it does its dance). then park and save at end of session. its native thoughts are northern hemisphere

[Starkler]

I have done all that houghy barring the park bit, and just wondering if what i experienced is normal behaviour for this mount.
The mount was moving in the direction of the gem cluster, but to get it that way the counterweights are up and over, and the ota hitting the tripod leg.

I could slew to it manually with a more equipment friendly attitude on the other side of the meridian. My question is, is the mount smart enough to be configurable to choose the more sane of two posible ways to goto such an object or will I be forever restricted in what i can point at with goto :shrug:

[h0ughy]

no after you set it right it will behave

[Terry B]

I have an EQ6 with the synscan and now an EQMod also.
There are a few problems with the synscan but I have found it extremely accurate and able to put an object in the eyepiece every time.
Important points:

A reasonably accurate polar alignment helps. I use the polar scopewithout the main scope on the mount. I then connect the scope and then align the scope with the axis of the mount by looking through the eyepiece whilst gently rotating the telescope, let the clutch off and move the scope til the stars just rotate around in the eyepiece the scope. This aligns the axis of the scope with the mount. I then use the finder scope or the main scope to find the little L shaped asterism of the southern pole and move the scope to centre this. The end result is polar alignment within a few arcmins. The entire process takes less than 5 mins.

Orient the scope vertically and balance it as well as you can.

Turn on the synscan and set the time, timezone and coordinates as accurately as possible. One problem I had was that the hand controller didn't like accepting the time as +10 hours and would change it back to -10. It is worth skipping the alignment function the first time, go into the settings menu and check it has remembered the correct timezone and position. If all is correct, turn it off and start again. It will come up with the correct info the next time. It took about 10 goes before I could get it to remember +10.:sadeyes:

After setting the time accurately select a 3 star alignment.
You don't have to accept the first choice it gives. It will choose 2 stars to one side of the meridian and a 3rd on the other side of the meridian. Try to make the first 2 widely spaced and on different hour angles. The 3rd doesn't matter as much as it will be on the other side of the sky anyway. I found that the first star is usually in the field of my finder. This is mostly determined by the accuracy of the polar alignment and how close to vertical you started the scope. After centering and syncing on the first star the next 2 should be on the filed of a low power eyepiece. The 3rd one might be off a bit if your scope has significant cone error (not very parallel with the polar axis of the mount)

Hopefully it has accepted your choice of alignment stars and comes up with "alignment successful"
After this I found the goto to be very accurate except for aiming at planets. It seems to not work out their positions as well as stars or deep sky stuff.

If you connect a planetarium software to the mount and use it to slew to objects then the accuracy doesn't seem to be as good. I think this is because of differences in the coordinates used by the synscan and the planetarium software. I think that the synscan uses epoch2000 coordinates and doesn't update them for the current date where the planetarium software does. This gives a little bit of discrepancy with the gotos to named objects.

Best of luck with the new mount.

[Terry B]

Not sure why it would hit. Mine will only allow the mount to go a very little bit past horizontal before doing a flip.
Which way do you have the tripod oriented? I swapped mine around so there is 1 leg aiming south only. The scope never ties to hit the leg (but I do have a short VC200L and not a very long refractor)

[Kokatha man]

I've got an F8 150mm achro on my HEQ5, ie a long tom: I'm quite adept at accurate polar alignment and allways do a 3 star alignment, and whilst the 1st and 2nd stars need some correcting after it auto-slews to them, the third is much better for it to find - GoTo is then pretty dang accurate with a 26mm ep (48x) - but this baby allways follows its peculiar pathways to some of the objects sought, sometimes trying the "loop de loop," depending on their positions relative to where it last was.

And this has meant occasionally "skimming" the "southern leg" of the tripod with the focusser racked out, though I guess I could quickly pull that in cos it's motorized - but the first couple of times I stopped it, thinking I was about to have a major bingle; but now when it occasionally takes that route, if I hold my nerve it just skims past the leg without contact - though in the dark it takes some nerve to "hold steady" at that proximity! Only does it on that "southern leg."

As for someone's mention of moving the position of the "southern leg," I don't think you have any options there - this is the leg that has the azimuth adjustment spigot centred above it and by nature requires it (the spigot) and the leg to be as approximate to south as is possible, given the angular adjustment allowable with the az adjust screws. All I can say is hold your nerves, and "steady as she goes!"

[Zuts]

Hi,

My EQ6 does the same thing. The other night I had a small accident with my SBIG :scared:, but no damage done.

Now I watch it and if it goes too close I just hit ESC and then manouver past it then hit goto again.

Paul

[Starkler]

Thanks guys for the replies and advice. Yes Paul thats something to remember.
I guess I shouldnt have panicked being my first time out with this mount riding the learning curve while trying to learn how to drift align at the same time.

Hopefully after a few goes I'll get the hang of it all. Thanks again :thumbsup:

[Terry B]

I can't speak for the Heq5 but the EQ6 spigot is removeable and can be placed on either side of the tripod giving you the choice of 1 or 2 legs aiming south.

[Kokatha man]

Hi Terry; well, likewise, I can't speak for the EQ6; but owning an HEQ5 Pro, I can definitely assure you that this mount (the one the thread poster asked about) doesn't have a moveable spigot; it is a part of the casting that constitues the tripod head assembly and is directly over the (by definition) southern leg!

Cheers, Darryl.

[Starkler]

I have just been playing with the mount again and tonight it is behaving more like I would expect.

My next challenge is polar aligning. In my suburban backyard with the moon out I cant see *any* stars in the polar scope and yes I checked to see that the dec was rotated to the right place first. Are the octans stars normally that hard to see?
This drift aligning caper is going to take some working out.

[Prickly]

Hi,

With my Eq6 I never polar allign (in part due to a large badly positioned pine tree) and being a bit lazy! So its pretty hit and miss with the 3 star allign. After a careful 3 star allign all usually goes well for me, but occasionally I get the allignment unsuccessful message. Like Terry suggested I try and balance really well and make sure I choose widely separated stars (occasionally the selection using the up/down arrow keys will be quite limited which I cant quite work out). I usually star up pointing south so perhaps Ive been doing it wrong (will have to recheck the manual).

Main reason for post is to say that the half pillar is really good at limiting the risk of collisions. I use one with my 140mm refractor and have never had to worry. They secure on very well and are not too expensive. I also keep the legs down low that way too (which hopefully helps with vibrations).

Cheers
David

[h0ughy]

yes it does but it is worth it:thumbsup:

[Kokatha man]

Alan Gould and I have had a few discussions re the HEQ5 Pro, centred around the polar scope in this forum Geoff - have you set up the reticle itself in the daytime? That's the process of aligning it with some fixed distant object and adjusting the reticles "alignment" with the allan key to make sure its' position is "stable" relative to scope axis movement: a "must do" before successfully employing the polar scope.

I nearly didn't bother because of the "erratic" adjustment jumps caused by the grub screw "tuning" but persisted: even though I can see Sigma Octans with my naked eyes (but can't read my mobile phone screen!) I must confess that I think it's good for people to familiarize themselves with the Octans area via some reasonable binoculars first, to get a hang of the neighbourhood.

As Alan comments, the LED illumination is over-bright: flicking it on and off is one way of seeing the reticle and synchronizing it with the Octans reticle in the polar scope.

I had thought of a brightness control for the LED (some just don't use it) but I don't generally bother too much with the polar scope - have just checked through it a couple of times after starting to dismantle my gear following an ob session to see what it said!

I align my main scope via a 12.5mm illuminated reticle ep, employing one of those devices that cause so much concern in Victoria; the green laser pointer. I've modified them (one for each scope) so that they have remote (but not wireless yet!) switching and better/more stable and accurate positioning in Lumicon holders - iceman will download my submitted Mk1 article on this soon : I flick 'em on, hit Sigma Octans with the green beam and then look into my scope's ep to get its' x-hairs smack on the SCP - drift aligning is often unnecesarry (not that I'm imaging as yet) because I can hold objects in the cross-hairs of that 12.5 mm ep without any troubles for ages. Obviously I've my laser well-aligned with my scope..... and it helps to have the roomy padded carry box I've made to keep each scope in, that "suspends" and protects things like finders etc from being "knocked" out of wack.

Initial set-up is also expedited because I have an old survey compass with magnifying prism that I can read off one-eigth of one degrees from - it is fixed to a tube "stalk" when in use, that has a round wooden "plug" at its' base that fits snugly into the 60mm deep circular recess atop the tripod.

This isolates the compass from any magnetic interference from the bolt that affixes the tripod top to the EQ head. Naturally, the bolt is screwed right down below the bottom of the "well" for this procedure; necessary also for using a "bullet" bubble level that sits nicely in this recess for initial mount levelling.

Regards.....

[Kokatha man]

That bit should have read "60mm diameter recess atop the tripod."

[Terry B]

Make sure you can see anything through the polar scope. The mount has to be aimed E/W to see through or the axis is blocked by the dec housing.

[Kokatha man]

.....and of course remove both end caps, and release and extend the counter-weight shaft Geoff..........!

These last 2 posts presume you're really slow off the mark Geoff! (only joking/stirring from my perspective Geoff, as I hope my previous verbose - and comprehensive - post indicates brother!)

Best regards, Darryl.

[Starkler]

Yes guys I did have the mount saddle pointing E-W, caps off, shaft extended, light off and all systems go....... I just couldnt see any stars and Im confident I was pointing somewhere near the scp.

I wonder if the polar scope is out of focus? I haven't investigated yet if focus can be adjusted. Hmmmm. I'll certainly do the daytime alignment of the polar scope, but i doubt pointing upward at 38 degrees Im going to find any distant reference object so a close one will have to do :lol: Thanks for the Tip Darryl and thanks Terry also for the verbose replies.

[Kokatha man]

Hi Geoff - you don't have to have the scope's altitude approximating your latitude to do the reticle alignment. If I'm sounding "knowledgable" (as well as verbose!) let me say that even though we have the Willunga escarpment behind and around us here at Sellicks Beach, and I was up on my ob platform several metres above the ground with a very tall radar tower atop the hills, I was becoming agitated because of the same concerns!

Untill I did the unthinkable: when all else fails read the manual - which made me realize I could set the polar axis into a horizontal position and align the reticle in the most comfortable of positions!

Regards, Darryl.

[Kokatha man]

In addition to my further comments just below on reticle alignment; the polar scope's focus is effected by "screwing out" its' eyepiece.....

[Starkler]

Lol, yes I did think of this after making my last post and had a chuckle to myself about missing the obvious. :lol:

The run of clear nights in Melbourne has come to an end for now. Stay tuned for the next exciting (*cough*) episode :D

[Terry B]

Your welcome
I have found that even with a full moon I can still see some stars through the polar scope with hte light off so you should be able to see something. Try in daylight.

[White Rabbit]

I picked mine yesterday, but unlike Geof (who seems to have some knowleged in these things) I'm a complete n00b with this equitorial mount thing.

I hope you dont mind me posting my own questions in this thread, I figure that there is already on thread going, why make another.

I have lots of questions and I'm very confused at the moment, but I'll do some research on this drift aligning today and I'll post my questions later

[White Rabbit]

Mmmm, maybe I will start my own thread because I dont want to cloud your post with my questions.

Thanks
Sandy

[Starkler]

No problem at all. If you're a Synscan noob this thread is for you! ;)

[Kokatha man]

Ditto Geoff's comments WR: in fact keeping subject matter in one thread is much better (imho) because it's easier to find - though trolling through the various threads on a particular subject is very rewarding if you set yourself to do it.

I've been around a long time (starting to fossilize!) but only recently came back into AA with a vengeance; so all the new tech gear takes some adapting - but in real terms I personally have only stolen a couple of months or so on Geoff re acquiring the HEQ5 Pro, and we're all learning aspects of identical equipment as well as bringing our individual knowledge/experience and tricks/tips into the equation.

Cheers, Darryl.

[White Rabbit]

Ok thanks.

From what I'm reading there are two differnt ways to align these mounts with the sky. First is to polar align them or you can drift align them. Or are they one and the same thing.

So my question is two fold, for starters.

How many different ways can this mount be aligned?
Which is easier?

(ok three fold)
Which is the most accurate?

Thanks

[White Rabbit]

Next question. lol.

On my Meade I could sync a star if it was a little off centre, you could bring it back into the center view and hold the enter button down and it would sync, the next time you slew to that star it would be centered. Kind of like updating your alignment on the fly. Does the Syncscan have a feature like this? I cant seem to find it in the manual if it does.

Thanks

[Kokatha man]

Hi WR - in answer to your question(s) about polar alignment, alignment via the polar scope and drift aligning are meant to equate with the same result, ie polar alignment.

In practice, drift alignment would have to be the most exacting methodology as it is a dynamic technique: having said that, if you perform a very accurate polar alignment by other means you can arrive at a very close equivalent.

From my perspective it is better to achieve polar alignment (without jumping straight to drift align procedure) by using your scope to polar align with the South Celestial Pole rather than your polar scope - it eliminates a couple of mechanical errors in the mount assembly.

My method is in one of my posts below, and as I say, I find that a star will stay in the cross-hairs of my scope's illuminated reticle ep for a very long time. I don't as yet do any astro-imaging, but I know that should I need to drift align at a much higher magnification to really "nail it" I would need to effect very little adjustment with my method - ie extra-fine drift aligning would be very easy.

Can't answer your question about star "synching" but there are several updates to the Version 3.0 that you can download, and one of the other fellas may be able to help you there.

Cheers, Darryl.

[White Rabbit]

Thanks.

Here is what I'm doing, can you tell me if I'm doing something wrong.

My location is Sydney so I set the Lat on the mount to 33 deg. Then point the mount 12deg east of magnetic south. Then I should do a three star alignment.
From what I can tell thats all I should have to do to get it roughly aligned with the SCP, or am I missing something?
I've been doing two star alignments without much luck so far. Mainly because I have a lot of trees and light poloution where I am and cant really see all the alignment stars, finding two is a push three is is really hard.

Thanks for the help.

[KG8]

Often the polar scope is not aligned with the mount. You can verify this by getting an object in the crosshairs of the polarscope (daytime) and then rotating the mount around the RAaxis. Look through the polarscope as you rotate, if you see the object you have centered in the hairs drift in and out you need to adjust the crosshair recticle via the 3 little grub screws on the polarscope. Be carefull !!! Overtighten them and you will smash the recticle, too loose and it will fall out. Do the job like you were collimating an sct. ie, trial and error :lol:

[Kokatha man]

KG8 says: "Often the polar scope is not aligned with the mount. You can verify this by getting an object in the crosshairs (daytime) and then rotating the mount around the RAaxis. If you see the object you have centered in the hairs drift in and out you need to adjust the crosshair recticle via the 3 little grub screws on the polarscope. Be carefull !!! Overtighten them and you will smash the recticle, too loose and it will fall out. Do the job like you were collimating an sct. ie, trial and error"


Hi WB - on page 3 of this "Equipment" section of the IIS forum "Bug in Synscan 3.21 upgrade" there is further info on HEQ5 Pro's, including a bit about the reticle alignment in the polar scope that KG8 elaborates on in the preceding post. Good to know that it is something to do cautiously KG8 - I must've been lucky when I took to it! Alan Gould astually took his polar scope out to set it (see thread mentioned above.)

Just to explain WB, the reticle is the super-imposed images and central cross with rings you see in the polar scope - it has the Octans asterism (ie star pattern) in it for you to overlay onto the real Octans asterism you should see when your PS is pointing at the right spot in the sky: the reticle also has the Northern Hemisphere patterns which we ignore.

Aligning the PS reticle is what KG8 describes, scroll down in this thread to see a bit more, and remember that this is done with a fixed distant object in the daytime as your target, and you will need to set the polar axis parallel to the ground to facilitate this procedure (otherwise the PS will be aimed so high you won't be able to find any fixed object to target!)

Remember that when you set that "south" leg (the one with "N" on it!) to point geo south so that the azimuth spigot above it is also pointing south, you then have to make sure the tripod is level. I use a "bullet" level, a circular one that they use for levelling fridges etc; it fits nicely in the round hole at the top of the tripod. You will need to screw down the long bolt that holds the HEQ5 head assembly to the tripod top to fit one of these levels into the depression - but you will also have needed to do this if you are placing a compasss on top of the tripod to get your bearings; otherwise the bolt will affect the compass's reading, being steel.

Having done all this, I'm presuming you've entered your co-ordinates and time etc into the handpiece before you do the 3 star alignment: I've noticed when following this method, that the 1st and 2nd stars are quite a bit out when the scope slews to them, but the 3rd is much closer in alignment for the subsequent "alignment successful" display we hope to see.

To get a better polar alignment and subsequent "GoTo" response you should go right back to the part where I've described levelling the tripod after pointing it south (correcting for magnetic variation) and setting the altitude to approximate your latitude.

This is where you put the HEQ5 head onto the tripod top with the 2 azimuth screws wound right out and wind up that long bolt from underneath (the steel one I mentioned.) Do not overtighten this bolt to facilitate azimuth adjustment in the next step.

It's night-time, good and dark now; you've aligned your polar scope reticle in the daytime and your peering through the PS to see any stars - not forgetting to screw out the PS's eyepiece to get focus!

If you're very lucky (and I say this because I don't rely on this luck - see my posts further down in this thread) you just might see the Octans asterism (the real one, not the one etched on the reticle!) in the PS's field of view: but you would have had to have been very accurate with the compass and latitude settings to see them, owing to the narrow field of view in the PS.

This is where you use the mount's fine adjustment azimuth and altitude adjustment knobs/screws to overlay the etched reticle asterism pattern onto the real Octans star pattern. You should then have achieved fairly good polar alignment and then, if you do a 3 star alignment, should find your GoTo functioning quite well.

The red LED illuminator provided with this mount is for helping you see the PS etched reticle pattern when doing the above; but most people reckon it just floods out their view, and either flick it on and off as they adjust the alt-az to get the etched and real stars to overlap each other, or don't use the LED at all.

As alluded to, this is only one way to polar align and not my preferred method, to me it is too fiddly and chancey; I would recommend using the main scope with a very low power wide angle ep to get the centre of the FOV pointing roughly just up from sigma Octans, using the mount's az-alt fine adjusters to achieve this, and then switch to a 12.5mm illuminated reticle ep to really nail it.

From the other posts you will see that I'm a really big fan of the green laser pointers when they are accurately set up, they are accurate enough on my scopes for me to dispense with a lower power wide field ep and just go straight to the illuminated reticle - I obviously do my initial alt-az fine adjustments after rough set-up by getting my laser beam to hit a spot just above sigma Octans!

Don't forget to finally tighten that long steel bolt right up to "lock" the mount and head!

Cheers, Darryl.

[Starkler]

I did the reticle alignment yesterday ;)

[White Rabbit]

Thanks Darryl and KG8.

The problem that I have though is that I cant see the SCP from my location due to a rather large tree, coupled with the fact that I live close to the city and the even if there were no obstructions there is no way I could seed those stars throught the polar scope.

So is close enough good enough? With the method I described above can you obtain a decent alignment?

Thanks
Sandy

[White Rabbit]

Of course, it been raining since I bought scope so I cant actually get out and try out you sugestions.

AARRRRGGGG!!!

[Kokatha man]

Hi again Sandy - that is a real problem; but if you follow your original method and a 3 star align turns out successfull, you will have reasonable GoTo results - but if you want to track accurately, or have better GoTo performance or get into imaging, then you are going to have to learn drift alignment procedure!!!

Cheers, Darryl.

[White Rabbit]

Thanks for the reply.

Now I now where to start, that was my biggest stumbling block. Now I need to buy the illuminated reticle eyepiece.

Thanks for giving me some directions.

Sandy

[Moonman]

Hi there,

I had this problem with my EQ6 setup with a newtonian which I solved with an extension tube that lifted the mount up sufficiently for it to clear the legs. Depending on how tall or short you are this could be a solution.

The eq6 also occassionally tends to meridian flip as you described when asked to move only a samll distancefrom its previous position. I havn't any ideas on this I'm sorry to say.

cheers

mike

[Kokatha man]

Hi Moonman - the extender is a good option; but unfortunately it's only for the EQ6 - there isn't one for the HEQ5.

Ergonomically, with a long refractor, the height of the HEQ5 can present problems viewing towards the zenith, unless you're 4 foot "tall": I'm expecting (hopefully today!) a custom-ordered pier from Mick to ease my poor old back!

Regards, Darryl.

[Moonman]

Thats a real bummer isn't it. I guess no system in perfect.

cheers

mike

[NJB]

Hi All.

I've been reading this thread with interest. I have a answer to White Rabbit's question about syncing. The SynScan does do it, but calls it Pointing Accuracy Enhancement (PAE). See page 7 of the SynScan manual (well, page 7 in my manual). Basically, you GoTo an object, centre it, then press and hold down the ESC key for two seconds. The hand control will display "Re-center" and the name of the object in a blinking mode 3 times. Then press ENTER to confirm the syncing.

I have a question of my own though. People talk about focusing the polar scope by screwing out its eyepiece. But on mine, the whole polar scope screws out, and I can find no way of screwing out just its eyepiece. I've tried loosening some of those little screws and turning the attached rings next to the scale, but to no effect except dropping the dastardly small screws. I can barely see them to put them back in! My polarscope is seriously out of focus, and I can't find how to fix it.

Thanks for any help.
Noel

[White Rabbit]

Thanks NJB.

I stumbled across that but wasnt really sure if that what was happening.

Wish I could help you with your problem but...I dont have a clue.

Thanks again

Sandy

[NJB]

Ahhh.... I've found the answer to focusing the polar scope! Brute force, what else? The eyepiece DOES screw out, it just was screwed all the way in and stuck tight, and took some effort to shift it. I also found a discussion about this on the Cloudy Nights forums which gave me confidence to try harder!
(http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1641669/page/94/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1)

Noel.
(Hopefully soon to be able to actually use my new HEQ5 PRO mount for some real observing.......)