What's an amateur astronomer?

[iceman]

Well here's one.. what's an amateur astronomer? My wife got me pondering with this question, after she read the Venus article in the latest AS&T by Steve Massey.. quoted as "an experienced amateur astronomer".

What's the difference between an amateur astronomer and a stargazer, or someone who just looks through a telescope or binoculars at the sky?

Is an amateur astronomer someone who does astronomy related things like an astronomer, but doesn't get paid for it as a full-time job? Like analysing red-shift, spectrometry, etc etc?

Or is an amateur astronomer anyone who has an interest in the skies above and hunts down objects in their telescopes?

Are there different levels of amateur astronomer? Like, there's the guys like Steve Massey or others who do comet hunting or NEO hunting.. they don't get paid for it (I assume), so they're an amateur astronomer..

And then there's guys like me, who have an interest in astronomy and am continuing to learn more, but really, I'm not much more than a guy who looks through a telescope when the clouds let me :) But then sometimes i'm called an amateur astronomer.. or maybe's that just a "wannabe astronomer" :lol:

I dunno, I guess it's a bit of a philosophical question, I just wonder if there's a general definition or commonly held belief about what an amateur astronomer is..

I'm interested in your thoughts on the topic.. and look forward to hearing from guys like Dave Reneke to see what the professionals in the biz think about this..

:confuse3: :confused:

[iceman]

Very interesting, thanks for the indepth response Dave.

As I expected, i'm not an amateur astronomer because i'm not contributing to the science of astronomy.. Sounds like too much time and hard work to be an amateur astronomer :P

Maybe I can be classified as a teacher of astronomy when I go to the kids school and tell them about the solar system :)

[Dave]

Just tell them Amateurs built the Ark - Professionals built the Titanic

[Vermin]

Very interesting, thanks for taking the time to write that Dave.
V.

PS: I finally got around to subscribing to S&S this weekend!

[ving]

Aaahh! so all this tim i have been a professional astronomer and didnt realise it:P

maybe I am a professional star gazer... new group!

I am sure there are plenty of unpaid professionals out there! :whistle:

[Dave]

Vermin

Thanks for the feedback. Glad to see you subscribed! Why not drop us a line in the letters column or stick in an astro pic if you have one. Good luck.

Mike - you would like teaching astronomy to the kids. If you need some assistance or get stuck then contact me, I have some ideas that might be helpful

[beren]

:) Vermin send your Auroa shots in !


Thanks Dave for the great post .:)

[Dave]

Thanks Aragon.

Good to have you on side mate! All the best.

[iceman]

Hey so all I have to do is get into that minor planet occultation timings and then I can be an amateur astronomer! :)

I'd love trying to time those occulatations with a dob with no tracking! It'd be almost as frustrating as my webcam experiences with a non-tracking dob! :bashcomp: :lol:

Dave, I've already taken my scope to my sons preschool (last week), but found that mostly they were a bit too young to really appreciate it. I'll do it again at my sons primary school next year, where the kids will be a little older and a little wiser, and i'll have an early evening session to show them the planets, which is infinitely more exciting than looking at a white-light sun :)

Appreciate any tips and advice you have!

[Dave47tuc]

This is an intersting thread.

Dave i liked your responce.:)

Someone once asked me if i was a Astronomer, I said No.

Oh you must be a amateur astronomer, I said no.
They were confused:confused:

I said I was more like a Astro Traveller.!!
Let me explain.:)

Now I'm not the most educated person(bad speller:confuse2: )

I left school very early, but fell on my feet and I have been a printer most of my working life.

I have been interested in Astronomy for a long time. I have observed the night sky regulary since 1982.
I read and still read lots of books and S&S! etc.

Yes I know what a G2 type star is. Or what supernova is and lots more. This however does not make me a Amateur astronomer.

I have met what i call amateur astronomers. Also astronomers.
One astronomer said to me once , they envied me when i look through my telescope. As that person had hardly done so.

:astron:

I dabbled in Occultation work for the RASNZ, and still do from time to time. VNG's closeure buggerd most of that up.

I also did some Meteor work with a group from the ASV, which sent observation's to the IMO.
All this did not make me a amateur astronomer, as i see it.

So why asto traveller, well people travel many miles and even fly around the world to see things. Say the grand canyon, or great barrier reef, whatever.:earth: :

I on the other hand use my telescope and eyes to travel the universe. I look at galaxy's many millions of light years away. I think that it is amazing that i can even do that.
See canyons, craters and moutains rilles etc on the moon.
Saturns rings, etc.
You get my drift yeh:2thumbs:
My observing does not finish with packing the telescope away.
I dream of what i saw for many months and years.
i also keep a catalouge when i can.

I may not contribute to astronomy as such, but i do enjoy it.

So we maybe,"Recreational Sky Observers" or Astrotravellers.
But we do love the night sky as much if not more than anyone.
Clear skies.

:stargaze:

:astron:

Best

[iceman]

Great response Dave, great thoughts indeed and I concur with all of them!

[Mick]

Well said Dave. Some words have lots of meanings.

This is the one I like for amateur.

amateur = A person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession.

I can enjoy the Universe and life I’m happy.

Ps Dave are you Dr Who?:P
:xmas:

[rumples riot]

I don't agree, I think any definition as to what is and what is not, is by definition fraught with errors. You see language is the way we define things verbally and that is where the problem begins. Let me explain.

First, our language (English) is in fact an amalgamation of many different languages. Part french, part latin, part italian, part spanish, irish, greek etc, etc etc.... You get the picture. In other words it is a bunch of translations which we are not even sure if they are correct despite what the Oxford says. After all the Oxford, which is the dictionary to quote in Court, now has the word Do'h in it. So how reliable can it be if it has an American euphemism in it, which is more like a sound than a word, and what it is meant to have the meaning that the person uttering it is in fact either stupid or expressing exasperation for a stupid action that they have committed.

So how does this fit to together with whether we are in fact amateur Astronomers. Well Dave's definition was partly right. The word is French in origin and it does mean someone who does practices something without monetary reward. But amateur can also mean someone who practices something for the passion of it. They acquire as much information about the subject as possible like an obsession, via reading, practicing experiments and conversing with others in the very same field. Now that is a pretty broad definition. And; that is the result of translation and how it is viewed in context. You see no language is in fact able to translate words with exact definition. Each word has a sense and feel to it, and in this case, the word has more than one sense and feel to it.

So according to both definitions we do indeed qualify, we do research about the topic of astronomy; this very forum is one way in which we research and learn of our interest in astronomy, We do conduct and practice experiments, Mike is a good example, he is trying to perfect his use of a Toucam. We do infact converse with others in the very same field to learn from each other. But, do we in fact contribute to Astronomy as a science? I argue that we do. By doing what we do, we are teaching others and thereby contributing to the science of Astronomy. Now is the contribution one of worthwhile endeavour? That is a subjective quesiton that only you can answer, as for me I think that I qualify as an amateur under my synopsis, you might disagree, but one this is for certain; if we don't then an amateur astronomer is an Oxymoron. Because; it cannot be two things at once and non at all.

Paul

[Mick]

Do'h

[iceman]

Isn't it D'oh, not Do'h? :doh: :D

[Mick]

LOL:doh:

[ving]

Ving: Look, I -- I may not be an explorer, or an adventurer, or a treasure-seeker, or a gunfighter, Mr. O'Connell! But I am proud of what I am!
Rick O'Connell: And what is that?
Ving: I... am a librarian!



pick the movie! :P

oh yeah, and I am a librarian... I cheered at this scene! :clap:

[Mick]

The Mummy. Evelyn. :lol2:

[ving]

Oi!! who are you calling evelyn? :poke:

[iceman]

As forum administrator and moderator, it's my job to ensure that the reputation of the forums is not inadvertently (or otherwise) tarnished by misleading or incorrect posts.

It's been brought to my attention that the original post by Dave Reneke in this thread, about what defines an amateur astronomer, is actually mostly copied from Tom Williams home page (see http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~trw/define.html) without giving credit to the original source.

It's not for me to judge whether it was an accidental oversight or otherwise, but as an ongoing rule, can everyone please ensure that if you post material from another website please give credit where it is due so that we may avoid any plagiarism claims.

Thanks in advance, and sorry for having to bring down the tone for a brief moment.

[rumples riot]

I'm cool with that Mike, just like being at Uni again.

[[1ponders]]

D'oh (Channel 10 6:00 PM Mon - Fri) ;) :2thumbs:

[Dave]

In reply to Dave47tuc , iceman, Mick & rumples riot

Thanks for the positiveness of your reponses. Forums like this need both positive and critical input - that in turn promotes discussion which in turn leads to new ideas/conclusions and, in a lot of cases, new paradigm shifts in thinking.

Paul, it matters not whether you have a good education - it's not a prerequisite to enjoying astronomy. Hell, just look out there as you have done and wonder...WONDER AT IT ALL! You've have seen a lot more than most..you've seen the Universse as it is, and how it affects you is more important than anything!!

Mick has read the words and understands the concept: you have seen, and are gonna see more things than most, with your enthusiasm and outlook.

Mike has taken a big step by geting this forum up and running. THAT, in itself, shows he's committed to you all and wants to share it all online. People like this are the visionaries.. and visionaries get things done!

rumples riot has posted a long and incisive reply to what I wrote. I applaud that and he has a right to his assessments. But mate, don't take it too seriously or literally... it's not all that important to analyse to the nth degree the meaning or interpretaional aspects and derivitaives of all words. I did however,enjoy your input and would be the last to say 'chill out' .. people like you are needed to stimulate discussion, but one word of advice - try and relate to all on the forum in your replies a tad more simply. I found it a bit 'heavy' in places and needed a good scotch later on to take it all in. BUT I like you!.. you remind me of ME, a few years ago.

Guys, in the final wash what the hell does it matter if we're an amateur or professional? The idea of astronomy is to enjoy the night sky and if one guy does it for the love of it and the other guy does it for the $$ big deal. It's what YOU get out of it that counts.

At SKY & SPACE we've looked at this topic on this forum and feel it might in fact make the basis of a good story.. so, you all in turn have contributed to something which might reach a great number of people in the long run. When forums can do something like this then it's a sign that it has been moving in the right direction.

[silvinator]

I believe that everyone here has included some very valid points that help us to define what we really call an amateur astronomer. Here is my own definition of what I consider to be an amateur astronomer:

A person who has a genuine interest or passion for astronomy as a whole and who engages in astronomy related activities like observing, whether with the naked eye or fancy equipment, or in the pursuit of knowledge of the heavens in order to gain a better understanding of our place in the universe
A person that contributes to the science of astronomy through their own observations and data collection voluntary and without pay
A person who has a deep respect for the scientific field of astronomy but who is not actually engaged in a research career
And of course, the most important criteria of all in order to be considered an amateur astronomer is that you are also a member of this forum :P

In regards to Dave's post (Dave47tuc), your descriptions of your activities lead me to believe that you are more of an amateur astronomer than you believe yourself to be. The results you obtained from your meteor an occultation work is a significant contribution to the astronomy field. It may not be ground breaking research but the data gathered from people like you certainly does help other professional astronomers who work for those institutions to which you send in your data gain a better understanding of the universe. I do however, really like your thoughts on us being Astrotravellers. We are in essence, travelling to farway worlds by doing something as simple as gazing up to the stars. That is the core of astronomy because if people back in ancient times had not looked up at the stars, astronomy as a science would falter or perhaps not have existed at all. These ancient cultures are considered to be the very first astronomers which includes peoples like the Egyptians, the Persians and the Chinese.
However, this raises the question as to whether or not they were amateurs or professionals. This then brings me to the point that the scientific method, or the birth of modern science, is what helps us to define what a professional astronomer is. Without astronomy having a research related presence in science, there can be no professionals so then we must all be amateurs. Hence, the birth of modern science is what made the defining boundary between amateur and professional. What consitutes as a professional astronomer is clear - they are the ones doing the major scientific, groundbreaking research into the theories and laws that make up the universe. So if you are not directly involved in this, than you are by all means, an amateur astronomer, just like in ancient times. This is not to say that amateurs are scientifically inept but that they are not scientifically oriented. Instead, we enjoy astronomy on a different level in a way that connects the heavens with our emotions as well as stimulating our minds.
So for simplicity's sake, I would say that you and I are amateur astronomers. If someone asked me if I was an amateur, I would fervently say YES, of course I am, rather than bog them down with the many different levels of amateur astronomer classifications.
In the end, both amateurs and professionals have a common purpose: we aim to understand who we are, what our place is among the stars and we aim to gain as much knowledge from this grand universe of ours the best way we can.

[Dave]

Hi Folks

just a quick apology and an explanation about the post I recently added "Some thoughts for identifying an astronomer as an amateur".

Look, it was an oversight .. in my haste to get the info in to help straighten the discussion, I inadvertently forgot to add the reference to Tom Williams home page source. http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~trw/define.html

Lesson learnt - check and recheck before sending!

I didn't originally infer it was my article, I just headed it "Some thoughts for identifying an astronomer as an amateur". The last few paragraphs were mine added as interesting observations on the topic.

I've personally written to the administrator Mike with these same
words and apologise to all concerened. It won't happen again.

[rumples riot]

No problem and thanks for taking the time to explain yourself

regards Paul

[Dave47tuc]

Thanks Silvie for your thoughts.
What ever we are we are one thing for certain.
People who have a passion for the night sky.

I would love to be standing on the bridge of a star ship and say"lets see what's out there"

:ship2:

Best.

:astron:

[silvinator]

Tis true dave, there is nothing more wonderous than staring up at the night sky :D

well we all know what happens when the captain says that! :P

[iceman]

Dave,

I've written to you privately explaining the reasons behind my post. But also publicly:
I had to stay neutral and that's why my post said "It's not for me to judge..". The main intention of my post was simply to remind people that when material is copied from another website (which we all do from time to time), then rememeber to give credit so that we avoid any negative claims. It was not my intention to publicly point the finger at you and claim you plagiarised - i'm confident I did not do that and I hope my post is not misread as inferring that.

I hope there is no negativity as a result of this mishap and I hope we can all move on from it in a positive way.

[silvinator]

hey ice, I never thought you were trying to point the finger at dave at all so yes, you can be confident that your post was neutral. It was just a slight mishap on Dave's part and now as I read over his initial post that sparked your copyright warnings, it doesn't actually mention in the post itself that they were soley his thoughts. However, you still have to point it out as an administrator of this forum so we all understand.
But good onya mate for apologising dave and letting us know. I'm sure we all appreciate it, right fellas? It's good to be given a good kick up the backside now and then :P

[Gordon]

Dear Iceman

There is a very nice account covering the topic 'when is an amateur an amateur' in the U.S Sky & Telescope magazine by Rick Fienberg July 2004. He states why not just call ourselves astronomers. In my opinion today's astronomers who have done their PhD's are really astronomy researchers. In the amateur stakes most casual observers might perhaps call themselves stargazers. Those with a more in depth knowledge or perhaps a particular area of dedicated interest that may somehow make a contribution in whatever form might be called amateur astronomers. Clearly there are those who like to write and talk about the subject like Mr Reneke (nothing wrong with this) and those who actually get out and do it like most of the members in this forum I would imagine.

I am a little surprised that David Reneke would furnish such a silly response given that he openly signs off as 'News Editor for Sky & Space Magazine'. Such responses are neither helpful nor constructive to those seeking useful and constructive discussion in these forums. Members of this forum might find the following link VERY interesting given the discussion of credibility and who or what a professional astronomer is.

See http://www.acufos.asn.au/about/ceresources.html

Here Mr.Reneke is referenced as an 'astronomer' involved in the highly questionable practice of UFO investigations - a crackpot practice frowned on by the astronomical community. Most certainly he has no formal education in the area of astronomy but is comfortable to list himself as one.

No matter what we call ourselves.. just enjoy the magic of the stars!

[Dave]

Gordon

I've just noticed your comments here and feel I must at least reply to some of what you said, which I might add, I took particular offence to. Forums are meant to be constructive - not a platform for vitriolic attacks on posters.

Please take the time, if you are going to make assumptions, to find out about your facts, and a little bit of the background of the person/s you aim your remarks at OK?

First of all you state: "Clearly there are those who like to write and talk about the subject like Mr Reneke (nothing wrong with this) and those who actually get out and do it like most of the members in this forum I would imagine."

By this, you apparently class me as someone who uses his mouth and pen to do astronomy and doesn't actually get out in the field. How do you know that I don't? I own two scopes and regularly observe. I attend star parties and I teach astronomy - activities that require me to 'get out under the stars'.

The second statement from you reads: "I am a little surprised that David Reneke would furnish such a silly response given that he openly signs off as 'News Editor for Sky & Space Magazine'. "

Uhhh, silly response? I was merely furnishing an answer which I felt not only obliged to do, but morally as well. As for signing off as News Editor.. what's wrong with that? I'm proud of it. What the hell has it do with what was being discussed? Would you prefer me to say I was a dogcatcher?(which I'm not) lol.

The part of your post that particularly disgutst me is this comment: it provides your link in an effort to establish, in your words, "credibility".

See http://www.acufos.asn.au/about/ceresources.html

"Here Mr.Reneke is referenced as an 'astronomer' involved in the highly questionable practice of UFO investigations - a crackpot practice frowned on by the astronomical community."

If you look at the page I'm listed in the left hand column. I didn't put it there. In fact, this is the first time I've known about it. I didn't write it. This information is years old and no longer applies to me. It has the wrong email address and I'm no longer at the observatory. PLEASE CHECK your facts mate!

Saying "a crackpot practice frowned on by the astronomical community" shows your complete lack of knowledge in many areas, especially in the field of UFO research. Where did you get this? Is it a figment of your imagination.. or another assumption?

I was involved in serious UFO investigative work but have had no association with anything like this since 1979, before I got seriously into astronomy .. that's a long time ago!

Let me say it one more time, slowly, so it might sink in- I'm not involved in UFO Research.

Lastly, you state: "Most certainly he has no formal education in the area of astronomy but is comfortable to list himself as one."
Uhhh, again, how do you know what qualifications I have? Another asumption Gordon, isn't it?

I won't go on to explain myself to you mate, I have a good reputation in this subject and have established many contacts all around the world... AND, please don't try to make me out as someone is "comfortable listing himself" (where?) as something.

I'm not "listing' myself as anything! - just because I'm with the magazine doesn't mean I have to hide it! It's there just like you would pass out a business card, so people know where you're from. Have a look at more forums, you obviously need the practice, and you'll see many signatures like this.




'

[ving]

EEK!

settle people :)

[rumples riot]

We have had our first tiff. Lets let this thing go shall we, and go back to being happy and healthy.

[ving]

i need to go to he toilet :/

[rumples riot]

too much information Ving.

[Striker]

Ving was it a number 1 or number 2....I want to know for some strange reason...

WTF I just noticed I am a senior member at the age of 35.....Mike whats going on....grrrrrrrrrrrrr

I should be ankle Biter not senior member.

[Gordon]

Dear ALL

Firstly I'd like to apologise to you all for the ugliness that my post to iceman has since degraded to.

David

I also apologise to you if I have caused any heartache with my post. After browsing over your well thought out response to Iceman I was quite simply a little surprised given your association with the magazine. Clearly from your response you are revered as a leading authority in the area of astronomy and I have no place in posting such thoughtless responses pertaining to your past associations within the UFO community. Oh, and I am pleased to hear you own a telescope. Clearly I hit on a raw nerve that was never intended to be exposed and your response clearly resolves this.

However as you have pointed out, I am not in touch with the study of UFO's as a respected subject among astronomers. I'm sure we can all look forward to reading of your UFO work in a future issue.

As for the rest of your response, well... if one wishes to sore like and eagle in the fast paced world of media like our politicians then one must be graceful when their backgrounds are uncovered. Having worked in radio and for a major newspaper for some years one accumulates many contacts, friends and associates - the tentacles are long and convoluted. You shouldn't feel ashamed of a belief in UFO's. Perhaps they are really there! Have you seen one?

David, I suggest strongly that if you no longer wish to be associated with ACUFOS that you ask your ex-associates to remove reference to you from their website to ensure your new path of interest is left unfettered.

Also, may I just add that using hip expressions like "lol" is something I hear the next door neighbours children sprouting. Quite unbecoming of a "respected" astronomy media correspondent that you say you are.

I think it's wonderful that you are so experienced in travelling from forum to forum unlike myself and bolstering support for the publication along with your newfound profile.
For myself - yes ok I'm an older fellow still learning his way around computers and the good and bad of the internet. Yes this is my first forum and I was delighted to find a good one in Australia through which I hope to impart my perhaps a little dated but honest experiences and knowledge. Also and most impotantly for me, to learn from younger digitally minded members about what they are doing in the world of modern photography and telescopes in a sensible (NON COMMERCIAL) forum.

Once again I apologise to other members of this forum who may have found my posting aggressive in some way as this was not my intention. Clearly one can not just go in like a bull in a china shop when he/she has an opinion based on facts or otherwise. I've learned my first lesson of the internet forum. My wife has often commented that I need to use a little more compassion when relaying facts..


Let's just enjoy the stars and I'll simply leave it there.

[iceman]

Ok boys take it offline. Locking this thread.