Price Discrepency

[mick pinner]

yesterday l contacted 2 local astro retailers (who shall remain nameless to protect the innocent) regarding a new product l am interested in buying.
price 1. $525.00 in stock post immediately.
price 2. $671.00 2 week wait as they are not kept in stock and then postage time to me.
retailers l agree, can charge what they like, but why would someone expect to make a sale with a price difference of this magnitude as well as asking for my money to sit in their account for up to three weeks before delivery.
a $146.00 difference on a $525.00 item? am l missing something?

[leon]

If as you have stated, the products are identical then it is pretty obvious that some one is making a killing, because the fellow that sells it to you for the lower price is obviously not going to sell at a lose, otherwise he /she may as well close up shop.

That however is certainly a huge difference.

leon

[Louwai]

My guess is;

The cheaper retailer outlays the money, buys in reasonable qty & ships / imports by the cheapest means.

The dearer one waits until he has an order, then buys the item from the manufacturer, ships it via international courier (the most expensive way) & then recoups the extra cost from the customer & still makes the same profit. Because he's too tight to outlay the money & create A saving for the customer. This 2nd guy is only concerned with saving & making as much money as possible.

In my mind that sucks.
If that's what the retailer is doing, then why doesn't the customer buy direct from the manufacturer & cut out the additional %.

If I had to buy here I'd support #1 retailer. The 2nd retailer can go screw himself.

[StarLane]

I know exactly what you are talking about Mick, and I reckon I know what retailers you're talking about even without mentioning them.
I've been seeing it for years now, why does a price vary so much for the same item between retailers????? Do an experiment and have a look for the same product at various retailers online and see how much the price varies. This is not just for one particular item but for many items. The retailers that are way off compared to the others regarding price simply will not get the business. A few dollars, maybe even 20 or 30 dollars difference is fine, but 146 dollars difference is just stupid for an item of that price, and you would be stupid to pay that extra amount.
It's the same in all industries, just shop around. If you can't find a particular item for the right price in Aus, buy overseas, that's what I'm doing from now on, the Aus scope shops just don't cut it anymore, especially when the Aus dollar is so strong yet the prices remain the same.

[MortonH]

The two retailers may have very different shops and rents to pay for, which may provide an element of justification (to them!) for the price difference.

In the old days you supposedly paid a bit extra for the 'expertise' of the person who sold you the gear, plus the after-sales service, technical back-up, etc. But with forums such as Ice in Space, many of us can get the same backup from other amateurs who are only too willing to share their time and knowledge for free.

I don't have a problem with someone charging more than someone else for the same item. We, as the customer, can decide whether or not to buy from them. And with the internet there's little excuse for not finding the best price. Sometimes products are overpriced no matter which vendor you look at because the manufacturer or distributor controls the prices. We should be thankful we have a choice and are free to exercise it!

Morton

[dugnsuz]

Absolutely Morton and Mick,
I have been quoted the rent argument by two dealers in Adelaide when telling them about Lee Andrews prices for William Optics gear. Like I'm going to say "Oh yes I see the merit in your argument - here's $150 extra, put it towards your rent!"
A lot of the gear we buy is very 'niche', and we have researched it very well as you've said. After sales service/repair may go some way to justifying increased prices from some dealers too. But the much reduced pricing of dealers like Andrews is often very much worth the risk!! I had to return a barlow once before with no dramas - wouldn't like to do the same with a Scope and mount though! Perhaps that's where an extra $150 or so becomes palatable due to peace of mind?
Cheers
Doug:thumbsup:

[Karls48]

It really pays off to buy things up to $100 price tag from overseas. Even with postage charges you are well ahead. Few recent purchases: T- ring adaptor for Pentax $16.73, M42 adaptor for Pentax-$14.96, 12X AA 2600mAh Ni-MH rechargeable batteries $14. Those prices include postage and represents 60 to 380% saving on prices in Australia excluding postage. If you have to use mail order, savings are even bigger.

[Ric]

Pay an extra $146 and a three week wait is stretching the friendship a bit.

Vendor No.1 gets the sale in my books.

Cheers

[Night Owl]

You guys should really try this method, and not just on astro stuff.

I do my homework, shop around, get prices off the net, and all that. Then I start going in, asking if that is the best price they are prepared do the item for. Then when they give me their best price I tell them the truth. I tell them if I can get the item from such and such a competitor for so much less, and if they can better that price, I'll buy it from them. Never under estimate the desperation to create a sale from some retailers. Use that to your advantage.

Some retailers crack the ****s, but I just tell them I gave them the opportunity to do business, and that if they would rather I buy it off someone else who is prepared to do business, so be it.

I also tell them how unrealistic they are, thinking that customers have to pay their higher price, for what reason? Just so they can give them their hard earned, when they can go somewhere else and get it cheaper. How retarded is that?

I also don't buy much off retailers if they employ casual 16 year old school kids, instead of adults. It is then obvious they are more interested in their own personal profit.

That's why I keep away from Hardly Normal.

Recently an item I was after Hardly Normal wanted $499 for. Got it from Richard Smith for $289, no questions asked. I assume Richard Smith wasn't selling it for a loss either! If you accidentally think Hardly Normal pinch yourself and go to JB instead, and do some haggling, then count the cash you saved later...and mail it to me! :)

It never ceases to amaze me how many retailers have this notion that customers must meet the demands of the retailer, and pay what they demand, without ever questioning it.

I've even had retailers try and give me 'sob' stories that they can't beat such and such a competitors price because of their overheads, wages, rent etc. etc.

I tell them if their life is so hard and unprofitable shut up shop and go get a job in a factory on a twelve hour rotating day night shift like I used to do and to STFU.:thumbsup:

[Starkler]

There is value in having a local shop front where you can go and inspect the wares first hand. This costs money and the time they spend talking to you about your needs or the product costs money.

I think its pretty rude to waste 30 minutes of a shop keepers time discussing a product and then whipping out "vendor B has the same item for $x less, will you match?"

Im not suggesting that anyone here does that, but its just something to keep in mind.

If you know exactly what you want and arent wasting anyones time then by all means shop around for best price.

[leon]

I tend to agree Geoff, I do, and have bought from the same camera retailer for the last 20 odd years, we are quite good friends, and at times i know i can get it much cheaper elsewhere.

However it all comes together in the long run, for instance, the other day i asked him to print 20, 10 x 8 astro images for me, as i thought their printer might be better than mine, it wasn't, the prints were bloody horrid.

Anyway, I explained the differences to him in coluor etc, he agreed, and said well, take them home, do what you want with them, no charge, that was $90.00 worth of printing.

He is a fantastic bloke, and I can say, Gerrard, can I have a lend of the Canon lens for the weekend, yep, no worries, and walk out the shop with $2000.00 lens under my arm, no questions asked.

That is why I always by local and pay a bit more, Its quality service...

Leon :thumbsup:

[dugnsuz]

Sounds like you've got a good thing going there leon - nice one.

The dealer I referred to in my post on the other hand is an arrogant tosser!
I bought $1000 of unfriendly service from him recently - you see, I didn't realise that HE was doing me a favour through this purchase!!!
Now I'm very happy to waste his time for 30mins and whip out vendor's B,C and D's better quotes!!:lol:;):P
Grrrrrrrrrr....

[Night Owl]

What possible 'value' is it to have a 'local' shop that expects somone to pay close to $200 more for the same product, that is available in the same city at another shop? Its an insult to customers to try and gouge them, and call that of 'value'. Thats a rip off, pure and simple.

And just what sort of customer satisfaction do you think the customer is going to have when he finds out he's been fleeced $200 by shop owner A or B?

Do you think the skun customer is going to go back to get conned out of another weeks wages next time???? Not damn likely. I know I would be bagging the living daylights out of the merchant to everyone I met about what a rip off they are. What is that worth to any merchant? I know many don't care, as long as one off suckers keep walking through the door. What's rude again?

But I forgot, no customer has the right to expect value for money, and customer satisfaction. Just shut up, pay the price, and leave with it hey?

Well, I'm prepared to be rude, and spend what I save on something else. And other un-rude suckers can take home their over priced item, and rest assured knowning their convenient favourite local value shop owner can now spend the money they gave him on something 'he' wants!

Anyway, its nothing to do about what is "rude" and what is manners. Its about making your dollar go further.

"If you want to donate money, give it to charity, not a business." That's my motto.

They are in business, to supply the customer. It is in their interests to offer things that people will buy. There is no onus on the customer to buy what they have in stock, simply becasue they have it in stock, and you looked at it or talk about it!

This sort of attitude reinforces to me that many people are their own worst enemies when it comes to business dealings and buying stuff they have fixated on and have obssesions with. Problem is many 'hobby' items are like that I've noticed.

Anyway, my cosy 'local' shop is over a 500KM for the round trip. So I'll be stuffed if I'll drive half a thousand KM, to look at something, and then feel ablidged to pay inflated tag price because they gave me the privledge to look at it! I wasn't one of those that was born any minute.

You know, I've called places to see if they had stuff in stock, driven 500KM, to be told once I've got there that their computer stock management was out and they don't have one in stock, but can get one in three weeks. All that has proved is I'm not a violent individual.

Man, if I was a greedy shop owner with very little concience you're the type of customer I'd want! I'd be adding decimal places if I knew you were coming along for a look! :rofl:

And anyway, who said anything about wasting 30 minutes of a shop owners time?

I walk in, look at the price, and ask is that the best price they are willing to do. If they say that's it, I tell them I'm buy it from shop B and what price they will sell it to me at. Usually the elapsed time is less than 2 minutes. I suppose that's rude as well? :rofl:

[mick pinner]

can't agree Geoff, the argument that you take up the salesmans time and someone has to pay doesn't stand up, it's double dipping on behalf of the shop. they pay their staff from profits, so having to pay a bit more just to have them there is ridiculous. in my buisness l may do 20-30 quotes a week, do l then expect a person to get a second or third quote? of course l do, do l add extra to the quote for my trouble? of course not it's built into my costs not added on because they have taken up some of my time.
my initial point was not that one shop was a little dearer, it was $146 dearer on a $525 item, thats a lot of customer relations.

[Starkler]

Whoa! Some strong feeling there!

I have no issue with the above scenario at all. I was merely pointing out that I think its a bit rude to be what those in the trade would call a "time waster", someone who would waste considerable amounts of the shopkeepers time without any intention to buy from them.

How is it fair to take advantage of a retailer in such a way and then going to the opposition who happens to be more of an importer/wholesaler for the purchase? One who is not offering the shop front facility.

Before I get my head chewed any further please accept that I'm talking in broad general terms here, without reference to the specifics in this thread. Perhaps I shouldn't have opened my mouth :whistle:

There's no point getting upset with any vendor about their prices, just don't deal with them.

[fringe_dweller]

tyrekickers :)

[Kokatha man]

And I thought raising an issue that is dear to me like Reconciliation was a possible hornets' nest with some people (tho' we don't have hornets in Oz to my knowledge, justs wasps - and the only ones that seem to be a problem are the European ones.....no, don't even think about pursuing that any further Darryl!)

But honestly fellas, I've been a manufacturer as well as a professional artist over many years now, originally with a sales tax exemption "number" and then, after GST; an ABN and GST number. During that time it soon became evident that there is a whole range of price structures: retail, "trade" and "wholesale trade."

The use of inverted commas is to identify these terms as relative: depending on a whole set of variables they represent various prices a firm will sell goods to various individuals/firms. But the bottom line is that mark-ups are quite staggering in many instances (regardless of whether a "company/shop" has a retail outlet or not.)

Automotive parts are a particularly "rich" example of this. Mick's example of an almost 30% differential from A to B is, in many cases, rather mild to say the very least!

Which is to say, from my perspective, that it makes eminent sense, some would say just plain commonsense, to "shop around." Having said this, there is no doubt that after sales service and other perquisites are an extremely valuable factor to consider in many circumstances. This applies particularly to "small businesses" where the need to foster good customer relationships/services are paramount: if the operator doesn't realize this he/she deserves any fate he/she gets!

I allways ask, whether it is for business or pleasure purchases, "is this the best price you can offer?" (usually over the phone to expedite matters) and it is only in a few circumstances that figures are non-negotiable.

Ultimately "caveat pre emptore" rules: business is business; and unless there are those other "tangibles" that any smart operator should adopt to enhance his business reputation (and this can cover a raft of services) then dollars are dollars.

Cheers brothers, Darryl.

[tbentley]

As a salesman and consumer I see both sides of the argument here. I will always expect and be willing to pay more for expertise and better service. I don't see a problem with that, training takes time and costs a lot of money.
As a salesman I see it as my job to show the client that the service and expertise that he is receiving is worth the additional money they are paying. Part of this comes down to knowing your market and more specifically the customer you are dealing with. For some price is all important and others just don't want problems and will pay extra to ensure that any issues will be taken care of.
I will never rip a customer off but not every customer pays the same price, my job is to find the highest price that the customer is happy to pay. If someone knows exactly what they want and doesn't need help or advice then they pay for the product. If they will need my expertise before and/or after the sale then they pay a premium for that. The advice is a service, just like mowing a lawn, and should be paid for.
What really bugs me is when a customer milks you dry for information before the sale and then goes to someone else to save themselves a couple of bucks. If they can save a significant amount then that's fine, it means I don't really know my market, but not for a few bucks. Those types are really just mean spirited, tight-arsed scrooges and deserve everything they get (and generally get everything they deserve in the end.)
Once you begin asking for advice, this is distinct from asking for specifications or details, I think you have some obligation to purchase from that supplier. The level of obligation is dependant on the amount and level of advice you get. The more advice the more you should be willing to pay. Once the price differential exceeds your obligation you are free to shop elsewhere, it shows that the seller doesn't know his customer even though he may know his product.
Just my 2 cents worth anyway.:thumbsup:
Travis

[Night Owl]

So a potential customer is a time waster, if they just don't hand over the cash for what the tag price is. And a insurmountable waste of time is asking if they can sell it for a more competitve price?

Not fair to take advantage of a retailer! What about what is fair to the customer? How do customers take advantage of retailers! They either want a sale, or they want the competition to get the sale.

And who give a about the shop front? I have never used anything I have ever bought in the precious shop front after I've paid for it. In fact I can't wait to get the stuff out of the shop front and home, and then I hope to God I never have to take it back to the shop!

And I don't care if it comes from a shop front, or out of a container on the dock. All I want is the item at a price I'm willing to pay.

[Night Owl]

Hear hear.

Jacking up the tag price, and calling it a factoring for 'after sales service' is a greedy perversion. If you sell an item to a customer you are in many cases legally obliged to provide after sales service. And if the retailer doesn't have the sense to provide free before and after sales service to a potential customer, and prior one, they clearly don't know the value and meaning of 'goodwill' of having satisfied customers who would be willing to return, and pass on praise to their friends.

[Night Owl]

Hmm, let me get this straight... A salesman can find the highest price a customer is willing to pay, but if a customer does the same to a salesman he's a penny pinching scrooge and deserves what he gets! How do you spell hypocrisy! Oh man, some guys just can't help hanging themselves! :rofl:

And its even better, apparently if you ask for advice about something they want to sell you are then under some non existant fantasy obligation to then pay what they want for it! Holy smoke, next retailers will be charging admission fees, and pay by the minute advice, but only after you give them your credit card details.:rofl: How dare a customer expect 'free' information about a product or its suitablity!

Oh, I forgot that retail customers are the cash cows of the retailers, and must be milked for all they are worth. And heaven forbid if a cash cow ever breaks free of being milked, and goes to another dairy. It might start a stampeed.

And I thought talking about mowing the lawn was a pretty poor alternative to actually mowing it. But some people expect to be paid for talking about mowing the lawn! Man that's rich!

I should start a company on the strength of this arguement and call it something like "Jim's Verbal Mowing"! :rofl: I could charge even more because it would be environmentally friendly, as it wouldn't actually use any two stroke fuel. Hmmmmm, value adding.

I'm not a very good cash cow, and I'm proud of it. And I've got the saving to prove it.

[madtuna]

oh damn! I just said "lol" outloud..I spend way to much time in forums

[Zuts]

Hi Guys,

Sometimes I shop at MSY (cheapest computer shop in Sydney). Usually there is a line of around 50 people waiting to buy something. MSY is a great shop for people who know exactly what they want and want it now and at the cheapest price possible. However they offer no advice at all and will offer no pointers on compatability at all. If it doesnt work in your system then bad luck. if its the wrong choice then bad luck. Maybe a better option at a lower price forget it, you wanted it.

If it is broken then no problem you can return it, warranty no problem.

They offer a bare bones service.

When I shop for telescope gear then i like to talk about what i want to buy and ask are there any other options. If i am making a wrong choice then i expect to be told. In an MSY style telescope shop I could walk in and say i want that 16 inch OTA and i want that cheap alt az mount to put it on to take some photos. They would say credit card please.

I go to the local telescope shop quite often and ask advice. People are only human. If I never ever got anything there then why should they give a rats about my problems and offer me free advice about what would best suit my stated goals. It would be, god, here comes that bloke again, i wish he would bugger off and try ebay or something.

Sure there is a line, I wont pay too much over what something is worth, and if i had much more experience than what i have now maybe i would welcome an MSY telescope shop.

As far as the rental argument is concerned, well some shops have no stock. I like to see what i buy and not have to wait when i want it. I also dont like being served out of the back of a truck. Service and availability costs money. That's why for example some restuarants cost more than others, you pay for a level of service.

Try going into Doyle's in Sydney and when they bring the menu tell the waiter that you can get the flake down at the local chippie for 5 bucks and what is he going to do about it ......Why should telescope shops be any different?

Anyay thats my 2 bobs worth.

Paul

[AJames]

Price is based on supply and demand, but also on competition.
Frankly anyone offering a telescope at a cheaper price either is undercutting the opposition, had a fault with the merchandise, or is willing to sell goods at a lower margin.
As a consumer, everyone should be checking around for the best price. While the niceties of having customer service, service with a smile or even annual "sales", the bottom line is what you are prepared to fork out for the goods.
In the end, the market forces will sort everything out, and customers not happy with the price will often use their own feet. As for any thing else, the rest is merely a window dressing chimera.

Comment: The biggest and best discrepancy of course is "Pssssstt... wanna buy an <insert your equipment here> dirt cheap..." or even better "acquisitions freely obtained". Ahem. (...but sadly not a good idea - mainly because you don't get a warrantee these days!)

aka. Fagan (gotta pick a pocket or two...)

[Rodstar]

I see no point in bagging individual vendors for the prices they set. They are entitled to charge as much as they want. It is their democratic right. The Trade Practices Act, which is a very well thought out set of laws which has stood the test of time, makes no attempt to govern this area.

If the consumer does not do their homework and establish what the market price for an item is (and with the easy availability of pricing information on the www there is no difficulty in doing this), then that is the consumer's choice. I can't see any point in blaming the vendor.

I don't see any astro vendors rolling in money. I doubt any of them are sipping champagne and feasting on caviar on their luxury yachts. The Australian asto industry is tiny, and the capacity to make a quid will always be very limited indeed. The retail sector in most instances runs on extremely tight margins.

A mark up of 25% from one vendor to the next is miniscule compared with many other industries. The jewellry industry routinely marks its items up by 400-500% on cost price. Have you recently purchased jewellry with a 75% mark down? You probably still paid 100% above cost price.

A real evil can sometimes be done by predatory pricing, where a larger vendor in an industry sells items below cost price at one of its stores (able to do so because of its large empire of stores), so as to cause the little guy down the road to go out of business. So, sometimes lower prices are not necessarily fair or good.

My only complaint (which the Trade Practices Act does address) is if vendors conspire together to artificially inflate prices across the industry, something which may well happen, for example, amongst some petrol stations. In that regard, given the ready availability of competitively priced astro gear from the US, any Australian dealer which inflates its prices far above market prices does so at its peril. That is the reality of market forces.

Rather than blaming a vendor for what you consider overpricing, vote with your wallet. Over time, that vendor will have to be more realistic about their prices, or go out of business.

[Starkler]

Or when one distributor has a dealer network carved up into territories where no dealer can sell into another's territory.

When local prices appear way out of line with US pricing you try the US dealer only to be told they are not permitted to sell to you due to the dealer agreement.
I know of at least two distributors of astro gear that do this, one of which has a sole distributor in oz, so they can basically charge what they like.

From the land that champions free trade, it looks very anti competitive to me.

[Rodstar]

In that instance, Geoff, the sole distribution rights for a territory have been acquired at a price.

From the manufacturer's point of view, they want to ensure their product is made available in as many countries as possible, and a way to get distributors for as much of the world as possible is to give a prospective distributor the reassurance that if they go to the trouble of setting themselves up in a new territory, the distributor will not find that they are being undercut by another distributor from outside the territory.

Of course, in that instance, we are talking about a single product. The manufacturer of course could choose to only sell their product directly from the factory, in which case all purchasers throughout the world would be stuck with the same price, plus extra freight for those situated far away.

[harwayharry]

Karl - those figures you quote are great - obviously I'm doing it wrong.

Just bought a 2" filter from the US and postage alone was more than you quote, Also have 2 EP's & 2 adapter rings coming - postage via USPS over $30.

How about sharing some more detail on your secret?

On the main subject, there are risks when you buy direct from OS - the filter I was talking about above came from Ace Photo Digital and was NOT NEW - obviously a used or demo item with a damaged thread. Now I have to go through all the hassles of trying to make a claim (some suppliers don't even answer when you complain).

[tbentley]

I don't think you quite understood what I was saying the Night Owl, I never said that a customer shouldn't negotiate. Any consumer that doesn't try to negotiate is a fool and will, at some stage or another, find themselves taken advantage of by an unscrupulous dealer.



I never said that you should pay what they want. I said that "Once the price differential exceeds your obligation you are free to shop elsewhere, it shows that the seller doesn't know his customer even though he may know his product." This obligation that I speak of is borne out of your core values, kind of like cutting a mate some slack when he's being a prick 'cause he helped you move house the other week. It's as much about making concessions relative to how much you feel they have helped you out. No help = no obligation.



Now I specifically stated "asking for advice, this is distinct from asking for specifications or details". What you are referring to clearly comes in the latter category. A customer has a right to know exactly what they are buying without exception. You have (deliberately or otherwise) mis-interpreted what I said.



Again you are misinterpreting me. I said "highest price that the customer is happy to pay", note the word happy. No-one is talking about milking anyone for all they are worth, that would not make anyone happy. The kind of behaviour you are talking about is very uncommon in my opinion and generally doesn't last long because, as you say, all the cows go to another dairy (or just don't give milk) and the business goes broke or changes its ways.



Facetious little bugger aren't you! (Trying to be humorous, no insult intended.) Who deserves to be paid better, the bloke who shows up twice a month and just mows your lawn, regardless of the fact it is slowly dying, or the guy that will mow your lawn and tell you it needs fertilising, weeding and your retic is malfunctioning? Do you truly believe that the guy doing the most work should only be remunerated as well as the guy doing the least? should everyone be treated equally even though they do not behave equally? Wars have been fought on that subject, my friend, and most of the communist regimes are either dead or changing.



And I'm glad you do. As I stated in my prior post "If they can save a significant amount then that's fine, it means I don't really know my market, but not for a few bucks." I'm sure you research very well by yourself before deciding on a product and don't need the extra advice some retailers offer, therefore you are right in not wanting to pay it. I'm equally sure you wouldn't forgo rewarding any assistance to save $5 on a $5k purchase, you don't strike me as being that obnoxious.
I personally am quite happy that everyone else is not as self-sufficient as you because I do need the help (although IIS is often the best source) and am willing to pay for it. If I and others don't then these places will close, competition dies and we all have less choice and will end up paying more.
I'm sure we actually see things very similarly, just that we have different experiences. If you don't reward excellence all you end up with is mediocrity.

Travis

PS - I don't work in retail (but have briefly before) so my knowledge comes mostly from industrial type sales, often $200k+. The principles still apply the same, just that the stakes are higher.

[Night Owl]

[quote=tbentley;297768]I don't think you quite understood what I was saying the Night Owl.....,

What you said was....

"What really bugs me is when a customer milks you dry for information before the sale and then goes to someone else to save themselves a couple of bucks. If they can save a significant amount then that's fine, it means I don't really know my market, but not for a few bucks. Those types are really just mean spirited, tight-arsed scrooges and deserve everything they get (and generally get everything they deserve in the end.)"

You said that after you stated this...

"I will never rip a customer off but not every customer pays the same price, my job is to find the highest price that the customer is happy to pay."

I think you made your point very clear.

You are quite prepared to MILK the last possible dollar out of your customers on an idividual basis. But you also made it clear that you don't like them to find the lowest price that you are happy to pay, but you don't mind finding the highest price the customer is happy to pay.

All the rest of your diatribe is an attempt to cover up the above basic fact, which you stated, not me.

There is an old saying...

"It is better to remain silent and appear a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt." No offence intended, just for a witty reposte for the sake of the debate.:thumbsup:

[xstream]

Gentleman! Remember, keep it civil or this thread will be closed.

[wasyoungonce]

Another must "subscribe to" thread

There are some many these days!:whistle:

[tbentley]

Now, Night Owl, you are not just misunderstanding me you are deliberately trying to misrepresent what I have said. I stand by exactly what you have quoted, just not how you have chosen to paraphrase it.
My job is to get the customer to pay the highest price he is happy with. If they aren't happy with paying it, I haven't done my job because there will be no return sales. If I charge too little I'll make lots of sales but no profit.
At no stage did I state that I dislike them finding the lowest price I will sell for. I said that I didn't like them using one seller for information and then buying elsewhere for an insignificant saving. I even stated that if the saving is significant I have no problem with it. You quoted me on it. Read the quote properly, I take the blame if they do that as I don't know my customer well enough.
I have no objection to them trying to find the lowest price I am willing to sell for, but when they do I consider all of the factors involved. These include but are not limited to: the cost of the goods; the market price; the time and effort invested or likely to be invested in the sale; the cost of holding stock; the potential changes in the cost of goods for future supply (customers expect fairly consistent pricing, not jumping around every time the $A moves); the quality of the goods versus the market average; administration costs; reliability; other market issues; etcetera, etcetera. It is clear to me that you really have no idea of the real cost of an item is to a company, as opposed to it's cost price, most people don't have to think about it. It's also why a lot of businesses fail, they don't know their real costs.
At the end of the day the customer always has the final say. If you aren't happy to buy at reasonably negotiated terms then don't. Walk away and buy somewhere else or do without. There is almost no instance when a customer is forced to buy at the sellers terms. You can always choose not to buy and the consequences of that choice are yours also.
You may like to play the poor little victim buyer who is taken advantage of by the mean, nasty seller. It just doesn't work that way. If you spend too much then it's because you made the decision to do so, not the seller. He has no power in the transaction, the power lies within your needs and desires and your ability to control them. The only person you can be victim to is yourself.
Only you can make the decision as to what you value. If you want something now and are not happy about paying extra to the guy who has stock then the choice is yours. Buy it and get over the money or wait and save yourself the few bucks. Don't expect both, that's called being greedy.
I can see that you choose not to see my side of the argument. I certainly understand where you're coming from as I have allowed my emotions to override my common sense on a few purchases. But that only makes me upset at myself, not the retailer. I choose to take that power upon myself. I am no victim.
As for the quote, I like it and have often heard it directed at me. But I will always hold that the greatest fool is the one who keeps a closed mind. Might be Confucious who said that, don't know really. Perhaps you can help me oh wise owl?
Travis

PS - Sorry, rereading this it comes off a little nasty. That is not my intention at all. I guess debates can often come off that way.:lol:

[tbentley]

Nothing but civil xstream. I have no issue with what Night Owl is saying and I don't think he is taking any offense from me. Difference of opinion that's all. Good natured debate. What democracy is made of!
Travis

[hector]

Hi All
I may ask a question of you Night Owl
Do you do the WORST job possible for you and/or your employer.
That seems to be what you are asking the sales people to do when attempting to deal with the public. The sales persons JOB is to make MONEY (call it what it is) for the company they work for. If the salesperson does not attempt to make money he or she is NOT DOING THEIR JOB.
The decision to buy is made by the person wanting the item not the salesperson, BUT the salesperson JOB is to get the BEST POSSIBLE price for the appliance and still make the customer HAPPY. It is all about having a happy customer. If the client is not happy they will not buy. If they are happy they will buy and the salesperson has done their job.
In the mentioned case of the Telescope equipment with a dramatic difference in price I would not blame the client for purchasing from the lower priced retailer. That retailer with the higher price has lost touch with potential custom. Having higher overheads or a larger showroom DO NOT make the difference in price acceptable. You are correct that is greed.
Please dont confuse a average salesperson doing their job to the FEW unscrouplous people who give the profession of sales a bad name. By all means shop around, I even tell my clients to do this. If I am just quoting a price and I am not competitive then fine shop elsewhere. If I have taken the time to assist you in making the correct selections for the items you wished to purchase (based on you knowing little about the item you wanted) then please give curtesy, and see if I can do better on the price. If I cant then again shop elsewehere. If I can match or better the price then I have made a sale I worked hard to make.
Sorry for sounding preachy I dont mean to.:)

[tbentley]

Hear, hear Hector. Exactly what I was trying to get across.
TB

[xstream]

Not a problem Travis.

Just a friendly reminder before it gets out of hand. :)

[Omaroo]

Maybe I'm seeing this differently. I get the feeling that vendor #2 doesn't normally deal in the item at hand, but thinks that it would be worth his/her while to buy the item from vendor#1 at that vendors' RRP, and then on-sell it covering their costs plus make a meek profit.

Just a thought.

[matt]

In my mind it comes down to simple free market forces.

A salesman has a job to do: sell a product for the best price possible, for his boss/business and himself.

A potential buyer has a job to do: acquire the product he needs at the best price he can. (and that's assuming you can be bothered always pushing for the lowest price!)

Somewhere in between is the price they'll possibly agree on based on how much the salesman knows about his product, what price range he's willing to show a little flexibility on...and what the market is willing to spend on various items etc

It's then up to the buyer to do his research and decide how badly he wants the product and how much he's willing to pay, based on similar market factors that the salesman has had to be aware of, and to put a value on the salesman's knowledge and advice.

At the end of the day, you can always buy a product somewhere else if you're not happy with what you are being offered as a deal.

I don't get too worked up if I can't 'talk' a salesman down to the price I want to pay. If I think I was making a fair offer (based on extensive research) and the salesman doesn't go for it...then I'll buy somewhere else if I can find the item at that price. And have a little chuckle while doing so;)

But there also comes a time when I have to be willing to accept that the price they are offering is fair. And that's based (again) on a lot of factors, none the least being the convenience of having the item in stock right there and then when I want it...

Shop around...do your research.

Just my 2c worth:)

[mick pinner]

Chris, both vendors have dealt with this range of products for a while.
My original post was not to say that a vendor cannot charge what they like, of course they can, but if they do their research on price as we do then why bother advertising something so much dearer than an identical product.

[tbentley]

Perhaps because he figures he will still sell enough at the higher price to make a reasonable profit and doesn't need to keep so much stock. Many business models are based on the low turnover, high profit scenario as it tends to provide a better return on investment. Why go to the expense of selling 100 units at $5 margin when you can sell 10 units at $50?
On the flip-side it can prove to be a short term plan if there is robust competition. Sad to say that the astronomy market in Australia is not very strong at all. Interested beginners who aren't internet savvy can find themselves believing they have no option. Perhaps this vendor believes this is a market he wants to deal with?
Travis

[Stephen65]

That's only a 27% difference, I have seen much larger discrepancies on identical or near identical equipment between Australian stores. And when you start factoring in buying from the US as an option you can see price variations of 200% plus on scopes and even more on accessories.

The lesson is to always, always shop around, not just in Australia but also overseas via the net. You can save a lot of money with a bit of research. Asking in forums like this one about pricing and alternative options is often a good idea too.

[astronut]

I'm a happy 12" Lightbridge owner for two years now.
When they came out in early 06 I was prepared to pay the extra dollars for a new model.
My gripe is that two years later with the dollar hovering around 90 cents US for quite a while, that the prices HAVE NOT dropped at any dealer.
When I purchased mine it was $1499 (the dollar was worth 65 cents US)
the similar model in G.S.O based scopes was $1200)
NOW the 12" LB is still $1499 and the G.S.O. 12" is $800!!!
What Gives !!!

[mick pinner]

l'd like to see a dealer explain that too.

[Louwai]

Paul,
It's the old "word of mouth". If you did frequent a shop as you say, without ever buying, how many people would you tell about this shop & the great advice they give, how friendly they are, how helpful they are.
They are effectively increasing their customer base through you.

If they told you to bugger off, how many people would you tell. Probably just as many & so they are decreasing their customer base.

If I was that retailer I would welcome as many people as possible to my outlet, weather they purchased or not.
Word gets around, which is exactly what WE are doing here.

Cheers,
Bryan

[DJDD]

My rule of thumb:

if i intend spending a large sum of money from smaller retailers I always buy from the one whose car is not much better than mine. :lol:

[Omaroo]

Hmm... with that said, it's all a bit rude then.:confuse3:

Obviously if their price for the same item is that much higher - they're either terrible at their marketing (not knowing their competition) or are trying to dissuade buyers on a certain line for whatever reason.

[Stephen65]

I was looking at buying a CPC11 XLT about eighteen months ago. Australian price was then $5950. Same scope is still being listed at $5950 by some Australian dealers despite a marked appreciation in the A$.

Meanwhile in the US its price is US$2800 = A$3100. Even with GST and freight etc it's a huge difference.

However its not fair to say that no dealers take account of exchange rate fluctuations, I know that the Tak dealer in SA changes his prices to match A$/Y movements (which is why I am glad I bought my Tak when the dollar was at 104 yen) and Bintel did discount the price of TV EPs to take into account dollar appreciation (and also because people were buying direct from the US).

[Starkler]

Market forces brought to bear from educated buyers :whistle:
The internet is a wonderful thing :thumbsup:

[Suzy_A]

Usually when I buy something like some astro or photo gear etc, I try and find out as much as possible before I even go into a shop.

I then go into a shop and ask the salesperson’s advice and comments about the item in general. "Hi, I want to buy a camera. What do you recommend?"

I then usually go on and ask about products A, B, C etc, all of which I have researched beforehand.

I also usually ask the salesperson what they themselves use.

I do all this to see if what the salesperson tells me is a load of crap or whether they actually know anything about the topic. If they can prove that they do know something, then I consider shopping there.

It's amazing how little a lot of salespeople know. I once went into one shop and asked about something and they said that they don't sell those items. I told them what page of their catalogue to look on and their catalogue number and how many they had in stock. All they did was want to know how and where I got a copy of the catalogue from and how did I know they had some in stock. All I’d done is had a look at their webpage, which had these details.

If a salesperson doesn't know these sorts of things, then I won't shop there as it shows me that they are not serious or interested in what they are doing, apart from, perhaps, making money. Obviously other lies that the salesperson tells me how much shipping costs (usually almost nothing), the weak Aussie dollar (???), warehousing costs (it cost $300 to keep a 10 x 10 x 10 cm 1 kg packet on the shelf for a couple of days?) and so on also tend to put me off.

[norm]

Yeah, thats my bug bear too John. I know it went down mid last yr for a month or so down to $1295 - and probably should have bought it then. I can pay it the full price, but refuse to do so, knowing it should be selling cheaper. If the product itself has improved thru' modifications as a result of the initial batch (eg, heavier springs, bobs knob equivalent etc) I could understand, but it hasn't.:shrug:

[tbentley]

Just as a thought, is there any duty payable on astronomical equipment brought into Australia? Not that this would account for such a massive price discrepency anyway but I hadn't thought about it before as I haven't had to consider importing a large piece of equipment. Still that is talking between foreign and local pricing, not between local dealers.
Has anyone talked to a dealer about this premium we seem to be paying on locally sourced product? Could it be that US dealers get much better pricing because they buy/stock in much larger quantities because of the bigger market. Not that I'm trying to justify anything, just thinking out loud. There's every chance that the locals are merely taking advantage of the uncompetitive nature of the local market.
Has anyone tried to put pressure on a local dealer by letting them know that their pricing was forcing them to shop overseas and import themselves? I'm sure it wouldn't work on a low price item but on some of the more expensive gear it would have to help. Maybe not get it down to the US price but at least decrease the difference to a level where the local support (i.e. warranty) could justify the discrepancy.
I'd be very interested in reading an article if someone was to go to the effort of speaking to a few suppliers in Australia. If all of them refused to participate I suppose we could draw our own conclusions.....
Travis

[astronut]

Travis,
I won't bet my last dollar on it.............yet, but from my understanding the G.S.T. replaced all the taxes, levies etc that Governments have placed upon us over the years.
Whilst I agree that the U.S. market is infinetly bigger than our backwater, it still doesn't explain the exchange rate.

[Stephen65]

I know there isn't any duty on imports from the USA (free trade agreement) and when I imported a telescope from Taiwan I didn't pay duty. You do pay GST if the cost of the item exceeds A$1000 though.

[Louwai]

Everything that comes into Australia is scrutinised by Customs.
There are many different duty amounts for many different things, ranging from 0% to 40% & in some cases more.
Most general items are 5% duty.
Some items eg clothing = 17.5% duty.

Specific duty on Astro gear, I don't know, but I will find out from my customs broker. He will tell me exactly.

Duty is only payable on the actual cost of the commodity as purchased.

GST is payable on EVERYTHING.
Cost of item + shipping + shipping insurance + $ value of import duty.

If you purchase an item from overseas, where the PURCHASE cost of the item is less than AU$1000 & it is not for resale, then you do not pay import duty & you do not pay GST.

Also, don't forget, when comparing US prices to AU prices.
Many will say that we have the shipping cost to AU + the taxes.
Most likely the US prices you are looking at will be RETAIL prices, therefore, those prices will also account for shipping to the US + US duties & taxes.
So there's not REALLY that much difference in costs.
Main difference is volume as someone noted earlier.

[Stephen65]

The other interesting tidbit of info to know is that when it comes to figuring out whether an item is under or over the A$1000 limit Customs will convert the foreign currency price you paid into A$ using the daily rates published by the Reserve Bank on its website as at the day the item was shipped.

Sometimes foreign shippers will declare the purchase cost + shipping as the customs value on the declaration that accompanies the item but the A$1000 limit is determined only by considering the actual purchase cost.

If you do go above the A$1000 you have to pay GST on the purchase cost plus shipping though.

[MortonH]

I must disagree with several things here.



Depends on how you decide on something's 'value'. Is a Picasso painting really worth millions of dollars? After all, it's only some splashes of paint on a canvass. Is your wife's diamond ring really worth ten grand? Value is not absolute. If a salesman can sell the same thing to two people for different prices, good luck to him. As the consumer, you have the option not to buy.



There are many, many areas of business where you don't get free advice. You want advice on where to invest your money? You bet it'll cost you for that advice, even if you don't follow it. That person's advice is their intellectual property, which has a monetary value.



There already is a stampede. People expect to walk into a shop in the high street (or wherever) and spend an hour asking all the questions they can think of, then they shaft the shop owner and buy elsewhere.



Same as talking about buying something is a poor alternative to actually buying it!



Fair enough. But if you rock up outside my house and ask if my grass needs to be cut, I'll charge you for my intellectual knowledge of whether it needs to be cut, or if I even have any grass! (tall wall or hedge required for this to work, obviously.)



No-one wants to be a cash cow. And guess what? No-one has to. But, suppose the most expensive shop had the best knowledge, the best range of products and the best service. If everyone flocks there to ask questions and take advantage of them but then buys from a cheaper online store, there's no incentive for the other place to maintain its service.

And this is the point that gets lost in these arguments. Everyone wants the product at the cheapest price but they don't want to pay for the service. So they effectively 'steal' the service from someone else first and go elsewhere for the "product only" deal. At least on IIS the 'service' is actually being offered up for free and we can all contribute to it. We're lucky Iceman doesn't charge us for using the forum. Thanks, Mike!

Morton