National amateur telescope?

[Night Owl]

I had a think, and wondered what is stopping all interested parties of amateur astronomers like us raising the funds to buy a real kick arse telescope and locate it at a real kick arse location?

I'm thinking of something like this?...

http://www.astrofox.nl/index.cfm?cid=3

It could also be hooked up for remote axis through the net, and subscribed users could book in advance, and even pay a nominal fee to use the scope online, or in person.

It would also make a great focal piece (pun) for astronomy camps.

Its all possible, and would be well worth the expense wouldn't it?:thumbsup:

[citivolus]

Interesting idea, but I can't even begin to imagine the nightmare of maintaining the scheduling and the politics involved.

[kljucd1]

Hi,

Is anything like this currently being done around the world?

Daniel...

[Jarrod]

that's a brilliant idea.

yeah, lots of time and commitment involved, but with a whole community of amateur astronomers working together its well within the realm of possibility.

Jarrod

[jjjnettie]

You can house it in my observatory free of charge!

[Jarrod]

:lol:

thats fair. providing you move your observatory 1,505km south. :D

J

[Ric]

I suppose the location would be the tricky bit. No matter where it is located as in the eastern or western states somebody will miss out or be too far away.

However it still sounds like a interesting idea

[ballaratdragons]

How about someone to live at the site and be the caretaker.

Someone like . . . ummmm . . .

now who would be available and want to do it . . . .

someone from say . . Hawaii maybe ;) :whistle:

[netwolf]

A better bet is to have many smaller groups around the country. The equipment could also be sponsored by local retailers/manufacturers, that way the equipment becomes a focal point for the local community and brings more business to the local community.

[ballaratdragons]

They already exist, Fahim.

They are called Astronomy Clubs. :thumbsup:

[Jarrod]

as much as i like the idea of a giant amateur telescope...

i think if we were to consider putting so much time and effort into some sort of massive project, it would be better to aim at something that would make a differance every where.

light pollution.

we all complain about it amongst each other but how many of us actually say something to our local councils and what-not regarding the issue...?

a little off topic, i know, but its worth thinking about.

J

[ballaratdragons]

I have my hand up.

We are about to get our new 'Full cut-off' lights for our whole little town. All because council was approached and the submission done properly. And I'm not the only one. Other small country towns have already made a change in lighting due to someone stepping forward. And I have heard, through our council, that other towns have submissions in at the moment too.

So we aren't 'all' doing nothing but complaining about it in here.

But we are small and medium size country towns. Now it's time for you city folk to get together and put in proper submissions to larger councils. With 'energy' being the talk of the town nowdays, half your battle is done for you :thumbsup:

[Phil]

Great idear nice skys in Rocky i will look after it.
Phil

[Night Owl]

Hey mate, could you put up the documentation of your lights out submission to your local council? It would give others a head start on putting forward their own lights out submission.

I might have to talk to the owner of the local super roadhouse that opened up. Man, talk about pumping light in to the sky.

[mlcolbert]

But we are small and medium size country towns. Now it's time for you city folk to get together and put in proper submissions to larger councils. With 'energy' being the talk of the town nowdays, half your battle is done for you :thumbsup:[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, I think I know the immediate response from councils in the city;

we have security concerns, the number of crimes in the area require us to maintain adequate street lighting for the safety of pedestrians walking home late at night, to provide extra light for motorists to avoid accidents and also for the security of our traders so that there is not an increase in thefts in 'high street' stores, as well as reducing the fears of the community for break ins at the homes of families and the elderly.

Councils would probably also cite statistical 'evidence' provided by the state police to support their stance.

How to get around that? Reduce the stressors of living in large populated areas? Now, that's a challenge!

michael (wanting to move SOON)

[Jarrod]

wow ken, thats awesome!!!

yes, please post the documentation of your 'lights out' submission.



that's exactly how Geelong's council would respond, they're adding more lights all the time. not just street lights, most are lights in places to illuminate "dark corners", in addition to streetlights. lately people seem to think the bus stops and taxi areas arn't bright enough, so council puts up more lights. i think before bus stops it was clock towers and billboards that were not bright enough for people to enjoy.

although the new streetlights seem to have a feature designed with astronomers in mind... kicking the base of the new street lights makes them go out for about 3minutes. hmmm?

J

[xelasnave]

There were plans for an amatuer scope on the space station ..years ago..I dont know if that got off the ground..
With net control it could be done but you need someone to fix the little things like already suggested.
It could work like time share ...tuff if you get two weeks of wet when its your turn however..

WE need some numbers..how many dollars between how many people..
alex

[ballaratdragons]

I don't have a copy of the submission. The council has it. But it isn't just the written submission needed. You have to be prepared to attend the council meeting and in very brief terms, explain your case.

As far as your local super roadhouse, he won't turn lights off, down or anything until it becomes council regulation :thumbsup:





Sounds like a bunch of excuses to me!

Cities around the world have achieved success! Many cities. Some are Huge Cities. Rome for example.

Their are websites devoted to light pollution reduction from cities all over the globe (if I can find them again I'll post the links).

They were used as examples in my own submission.

Also, in your submission, don't say it is just for Astronomy. It is for:
1. Energy saving - Full cut-off lights actually use less power
2. Environment - animal sleeping patterns are disturbed.
3. Health - There is now proof that excess light causes Breast Cancer and ill-health in all people
4. Road Safety - Full cut-off lights reduce glare on wet nights by around 90%
5. Restoration of the night sky

In that order they grab councils attention :thumbsup:

What have you got to lose by placing a well written submission?
Nothing.
What can be gained? Darker skies.

If you never place a submission, nothing happens and everyone keeps wingeing but doing nothing about it.

Just think, a submission in a big city may work ;) It did overseas.

[Night Owl]

Despite valid concerns about politics it should not be that difficult for people with a common interest (Looking up at night) to all pull in the same direction and achieve a lot more than a few individuals. I also fly remote control aircraft, and I belong to the Victorian Model Aircraft Association, through my local clubs affiliation to it. The VMAA is a legal incorpororation, and has a legal constitution, as do the affiliated clubs. It costs me $120 dollars a year to be a member of an affiliated club to the VMAA, and affiliation provides me with 22 Million worth of public liability insurance. The VMAA has also bought our own state flying field near Sunbury. It has good facilities, power, and water, and any VMAA affiliated club member can go and use it. It is also used for organised state and national competitions. The VMAA has also supplied legal advice and cheap loans for affiliated clubs to buy their own land or improve flying field facilities. The VMAA also has an extensive library of videos that are available for loan as well, to any affiliated member. There is also numerous equipment that an affiliated club can borrow to hold events. It also has an education officer that goes around to schools.

Imagine a state / national astronomy association that you could borrow good eyepieces, CCD cameras, mounts, goto's, and other goodies from?

Our local clubs incorporation and affiliation has allowed us, with less than 25 members, to apply for local government community development grants. Last year we applied for a $3000 grant, and got it. Not bad for a club with 25 members. And this year we can apply for another $3000 grant. Imagine what facilities a local group (pun) could get for $3000 a year? Of
course, you can have higher club fees, subscriptions, and other fun raisers, such as raffles, wood drives, camps etc. I would be surprised if an incorporated club with 25 members could not buy a Meade 12" LX200R within 2 years, to share amongst themselves. 50 members could have their own 16" with a bit more work!

And why can't all stargazers get together, form an incorporated state and national association, and do the same for all astronomers, of all standings?

Imagine having association owned state and national observation sites, with good camping facilities, and eventually some really world-class equipment
to use as well? There is no reason why it can't be done.

But on a disturbing trend, why haven't all amateur astronomers been able to band together already, and try and achieve bigger and better things than just all doing it all on their own alone in the dark?:thumbsup:

[xelasnave]

OK you have got me I will provide the land, stone, sand and logs and a fair bit of caretaking ....
Problems.... no grid power and remote and not probably capable of a real fix it if the computer/net goes down
alex

[AJames]

Let's not mince words. Since the formation of the British Astronomical Association New South Wales Branch (BAA NSW Branch) by the amateur astronomer John Tebbutt in the late 1890's - stargazers in Australia have never really got along together. The point you make here I have experienced since joining an astronomical group since 1973 (35 long arduous years, Been a member, chairman, served on multiple committees, and even honoured) ... and it ain't changed in since this time!

The main problem is basically the set up of groups, which is giving near absolute power to just a small Committee bunch who dictate policy - right or wrong - over the entire membership. As the Committee are typically a random group of individuals often without the necessary organisational or business skills - who are there to solely to manage the Group. Instead, the Committee really only manage themselves - some to the extent of holding the membership to ransom.

I could give you a long string of arguments and an even longer string of examples - but in doing so I'd end up being the one "strung up" instead.

So IMO, 90% of the astronomical societies in Australia simply suck, and slowly have realised that you'll be better off doing it alone and reap the benefits of your own labours. If you are an imager or take observational note - and put it on your own website. Forget having to suffer the indignity of the inner political power-plays, egotism, bitter rivalry, with wanton display of their powers over others of the group (enforced by the rules of Incorporation via some Constitution), and ridiculous decisions that sometime defy belief or common-sense.

Ability is never rewarded but are consumed, where useful goals moving the Group forward are manipulated to stroke the egos of a few individuals. Those without money struggle from week to week to survive, but have few options of expansion due to either ability or geography. Those who rise to much larger group start a disconnection between the Committee and its Members, astronomy goals are transformed into running the Society and its finances. Through luck or benefaction, larger group are transformed into a Society more like a machine than some useful human collective.

Often profit and controlling the purse strings becomes the goal of the Committee, whose aim is more in improving their own high status than worrying about larger goals of co-operation and serving National astronomy as an useful science and educational pursuit. Such Societies are commonly unwilling to co-operate with others, and often hold there rival with often unfair or unknowing contempt.

Throughout Australia, our low and scattered population should suggest we have one collective astronomical society for amateur astronomers which is associated with a profession contingent overseeing the "global" needs and resources of the whole astronomical community. This has not been achieved - and the divide between the amateur and professional is a bridge few can cross. So astronomy in Australia collectively wallows as a bunch fragmented groups bound by no picture of its broader possible potential.

This is very unlike the South African or New Zealand experience, who have astronomers of all kind co-operating in harmony, who can achieve significant effort to the benefit of all. In the end it is just a view of some microcosm ideal of Utopia. They may say they are promoting astronomy, but the truth is they are promoting their own self interests. In the end you are left with a group holding their own prestige - pretending to be better than all the others. This picture is probably very bitter, but it my own experience it is fairly close to the truth - which extends to groups of other interests and hobbies. This is the reality of the current state of National Amateur Astronomy... :sadeyes:

With enough supporters, this situation could be overcome with the proper will and determination. Not everyone will agree with this idea though because established empires are often inflexible to change. I agree with you here 100%!

[mlcolbert]

yep, that sums it up nicely I believe, given also my similar experiences over a similar time period.

Thanks for the succint comment.


michael

[mick pinner]

the initial idea sounds great in theory. the problem with a group set up of any kind is that someone has to make rules and there it all goes up in smoke. it maybe a little harder on your own but you are the master of your own destiny, and viewing time.

[Night Owl]

I thought AJames' post of the State of National Astronomy in Australia might have been that way. But it doesn't need to stay that way.

I suppose the biggest hurdle is there is no need to cooperate, as anyone can just walk out in their back yard and 'commit astronomy'. And, I suppose anyone who is committed to astronomy is also resigned and committed to being alone while doing it.

Might as well have a bumper sticker...

Astronomers do it in the dark; on there own!:lol:

Anyway, who would be intersted in finally getting something together?

My first question is, how many astronomy clubs etc are actually incorporated? Anyone know? Incorporation is the first step to bigger and better things. Governments and local councils like dealing with incorporated organisations lots more than one of two reclusive, pale, vitamin D deficient, over dressed, binocular holding boring people!

And there are things you can do to a clubs consitution that prevents empires and dynasties being made. Things like no more than 2 or 3 terms of office, in any position, so you stop them roating through the executive. And you can include a mission statement, like "To establish a permanent local viewing site, and provide, install, and maintain the best facilities for the members and community". It ain't that hard.

As I said, if model aircraft flyers can do it, (and they did it in the 1950's) then guys who like spending huge amounts of dosh on slabs of polished glass and bent mirrors should be able to do it just as welll.

All it takes is a spirit of cooperation.

[rogerg]

I have often thought of this, "wouldn't it be nice". From my limited experience in astronomy clubs, I have come to the conclusion that this would be possible, but more so with a dedicated small to medium group of individuals who get along well rather than a general astronomy club that has polotics and people who come and go. I also think it's the kind of thing which is only just becoming a reality and so in the next 20 years will become more possible.

Roger.

[AJames]

The main groups of the astronomical societies are already established and are financially viable and strong. It would nearly impossible to break unless their membership is enticed away from them to better opportunities and conditions.



With respect, you miss my pessimistic point. Local astronomical societies do have a positive side, they provide meetings and journals can give others the opportunities to meet others and read about of similar interests. Furthermore, experience of others can be useful to gain knowledge so you can enjoy observing - often leading to formation of a small group of several keen observers. Such camaraderie is where astronomical societies have great benefit. If you wish to be a sole observer - well then that is OK too!
However, if you are after kudos or contribute to the science of astronomy - then you really are on your own. Societies are notorious for cutting down people to size in this regard, failing to see the bigger picture.
Your question here, however, is about nationalising the astronomical scene; and you are dealing with the peculiarities of established empires that are the individual societies not just individuals.



Nearly ever Society is Incorporated (about 50-60 to in Australia). Incorporation in Australia is a legal State parliamentary enactment, which exists for the protection of members and is the legal rights for groups regarding finances, property and public liability insurance. Incorporation is an agreement with membership, via a constitution, and protects individuals from being sued. :scared2:
Once a group has been established, it can receive fees and legally hold a bank account, much of which covers expenses - the main one being $1000-odd dollars for public liability insurance, and other costs like a meeting hall, postage, etc.
Groups not incorporated can exist, but the finances has to be held by another organisation, who are businesses or incorporated bodies - called auspicing. These groups hold your monies in trust, which can be requested in witting for the the purposes predefined. Either way, such groups can request funding from governmental or business for project - often with the understanding of benefiting the local community.




Been there, done that... Result : Just uadulterated misery...

All groups have something like this, but often it is made when the group was young and uncertain of their aims. Constitutions are only guides, but groups are unwilling to change these rules without much of a reason. Constitutions are probably the hardest thing write and enact in a society, (I've written about a dozen for new incorporated groups) and because it is a legal document, has to be writing clearly and precisely. If not written correctly or updated to meet the needs of the Society can stifle group or in meeting the needs of the members - and changes are limited by the executive itself or or 5% or 10% of the membership, the agreed upon by the majority. Controlling is isn't easy - and can be subject to abuse and manipulation. Not for the faint of heart!



As I said, 90% of the Societies and Associations just suck. there are good ones, however, and your example os one of them.



Exactly. Agree with you 100%. Yet people being people it isn't easy to stay that way for any length duration. Experience tells me this is idealistic, and unless you are a revolutionary bum, the only spirit you will see in this regard remains from a bottle. :drink:

In the end, if you can find a better way, then good luck to you, but convincing others of the quest - well that's a different matter. :violin::violin:

[ballaratdragons]

Andrew is correct in his pessimism of many Astro clubs. It is true of many non-astro clubs too.

I was a member of an Astro club which eventually drove everyone away!!!!!!
I used the mistakes from that experience to make sure our club does not follow the same path.

Dictatorships also happen.
I refused to be President of the club I founded. I took on the secretary role.

I was nominated as the President this year, but only coz no-one else wanted it :lol:

But the bitter experience from the past has taught me (and a few others) to make sure our club is a bunch of observers/imagers who get together and have a great time. No politics, just looking up (or at a monitor).

We certainly aren't in it for the money. After several Camps, we finally made enough to buy a $500 Scope and mount off ebay!!!! Beware of the 'Financial Monster'. Some clubs have got their acts together and enjoy club nights and respect their fellow members views and ideas. But I agree, many clubs will self destuct. But not all.

[Night Owl]

Well I intend to come on down and visit on the 11th and fork some cash over. Who knows what I will learn, as I don't know much now!

[ballaratdragons]

And you will be made very welcome :thumbsup:

But we digress from the original theme of the thread :doh:
It's all Andrews fault :lol:

[AJames]

Touché - riposte.

... but the 11th does sound fun... ;)

Andrew

[abellhunter]

___________________________________ _____________________

:eyepop:we can use the 28 inch as a finder.....:rofl:

see post #354

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65

Lance aka "abellhunter"

[AJames]

The following is a general suggestion on setting up a National Amateur Observatory and Society. It is far from perfect, but it is probably the best means of doing such a thing under Australia's astronomical scene.

Even though I have said changing the current national astronomical Society scene is almost impossible to break into convert into some national group, there is another indirect way.
If the aim of the group were to provide a national facility place in the best location in Australia, as this particular thread alludes to, what we need to do is do it from the professional astronomy side of things. By this I would set up a new astronomical amateur society which would be under the umbrella of someone like the Astronomical Society of Australia (ASA). (which would have to be requested and independently considered for its feasibility. The recommendation would be adopted by the new amateur organisation)
Here I would produce something akin to the sub-branch, which would have a fair degree of independent autonomy in decision making and the publication of some sort of work (published as a pdf in electronic format to eliminate costs).
This new amateur society would be subjected to its auspices regarding the global strategy and aims of the group - including the telescope facilities and observational programmes.
A Main Committee would be set up, whose organisation would represent the individual states and territories - whose meeting would be organised by video conferencing. This Committee Board would comprise of a selection of professional astronomers, advanced amateur astronomers, universities, all approved by the main body and even business and financial mangers, to be eventually chaired by a paid General Manager selected by an independent body.
Then there would be several important sub-Committees.
Sub-Committee 1 would also act as some type of Astronomical Guild or Union - representing each of the amateur societies and the internet groups who were each members - whose sole aim is to produce recommendations to the Main Committee towards these global astronomical strategies. They would each benefit significantly in advertising for the various star parties, society and observational programs conducted by their members. Memberships each have to pay a small levy from each member in the Society on a pro-rata basis, as payment towards promotional activities of there group. [It might also be possible to organise things like a umbrella negotiation of public-liability insurance for all Australian Societies who have join the National Body, etc].
Sub-Committee 2: would be involved in the education and promoting astronomy to Australian amateur astronomers and the general public. The latter, would be the main draw card for funding the Main Body, and would contribute to a National education policy.
Sub-Committee 3 : would be a third Committee would be responsible
for managing the observational programs. This group would have various Sections, with their own membership, being those interested in specialised areas of astronomy. I.e. Double Star Section, Imaging Section They would be responsible for organising the activities of the National Amateur Observatory
Sub-Committee 4 : would be a fourth Committee responsible for a National Conference held in a fixed period. It would be something like the NACAA (National Australian Convention of Amateur Astronomers) or even this organisation, if they could be persuaded with the right enticement. Even State buy State mini-conferences (like the Macquarie University event a few years ago could be supported by this group - acting as the focus for Society Development.

Membership would be by;

1) Individual Membership
2) Society Membership
3) Organisation Membership
4) Section Membership
5) Corporate Membership

There would be strict rules governing cross-membership, like the National Press Club, for example, where no individual or group can exert undue influence. There would also be a rotation of duties, and the responsibility of their implementation by National Body would be the responsibility of the Main Committee, or if necessary. 75% of the membership.

Now there could be much debate on the structure, but something like this. The secret would be not aim to eliminate the local astronomical societies but to enhance them. If some groups do not want to join would be at their own choice and peril, by not contribute would mean they lose national coverage and national promotion.

A name;

Astronomical Society of Australian Amateurs (ASAA) or

Astronomical Guild of Australian Amateurs (AGAA)

Andrew

Note: There are many possibilities here, and I only add this as general idea of what some National Group would look like. Such a group could easily support a National Amateur Observatory - which would have the advantage of guidance from professional astronomers in its design or the clout for gaining financial by Government grants and supporting sponsorships of businesses. :)

[niko]

reminds me of "The Simpsons" epsiode where Lisa petitions the town to turn off the lights so everyone can see the stars and after the initial oo-ing and ahh-ing the rioting and looting begins

:lol:

[AJames]

Alternative question and slightly different tack ...

If we had some "National Amateur Telescope" available, what size would you want it to be, and based on this limitation, what would you do with it??

Andrew

[abellhunter]

___________________________________ __________________________

Aloha_Andrew!:hi:

i got the Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfect scope for us!:D

See:

http://www.rcopticalsystems.com/downloads/rcos_users_guide.pdf

http://www.rcopticalsystems.com/32inch.html

Herez a workable plan that some may want to ponder:;)

88888888888888888888888888888888888 888888888888

-Estimated cost: $250K. (*with a we build roll off roof Observatory)

Per person cost: ~$25K with yearly maintenance
costs estimated at $300 - 500 each.

-Users are prorated share of viewing time divided
over best moon cycle.

[with a small group of only 10 we could all use the
scope at the same time too, without much hassle]

-Scope would be rentable as well during non committed
times for a premium; ownership would be transferable
to family and sellable with group approval.

This is not a toy - it would be a serious instrument.:eyepop:

Note: (Land/property extra $$$ or ???)

*********************************** *******************

* ROLL OFF ROOF OBSERVATORY PLAN
__________________________________

In the last 20 years i've built
three observatories. Starting
with an 8 X 8 for a C-11. Then
a 11 X 11 for a 17 1/2 in. dob.
And finally a huge 28 X 24 steel
building that housed a 28" dob,
and 3 other scopes!:thumbsup:

http://www.anzaobservatory.com

Now my next observatory will be
the biggest yet! Starting with 2
40 foot shipping containers set
30 feet apart. They will run
north to south. Then pour a
30 x 30 ft. pad in between
the two.

A 3rd 20 ft. shipping container
will be centered in between the
two 40 footers acting as the
North facing wall. This will
leave two 5 ft. sections to
be filled in with corrugated
steel to complete the north
facing wall.

Now the 40 footer's will have
their inward facing walls cut
and fitted with large sliding
glass doors. These will face
the inner Courtyard. The outer
walls of the 40's will be cut
& fitted with steel doors &
jams, plus high narrow
rectangular windows.

The 2, 40's will each be laid
out RV style. Each with it's
own apartment so to speak.
And the 20 footer will also
have a slider and be the
kitchen/warm room & library.
With the only access from
inside the observatory.

All that is left will be the
South facing wall. This will
be two large 15 ft. corrugated
steel gates on wheels that
swing open to give an
unobstructed view to the
south. And then of course
a 33 X 30 ft. roof that rolls
off to the North.

The "out-riggers" to hold
the rolled off roof will be
cut down telephone poles
with wood horizonal rails
with steel tracks on top of
them. These will ride the
9 inch wheels.

The 30 x 30 pad will be cut
in sun rays out from the
center. Here will sit the 36"
RCOS. In the front SE
corner will sit a 17 1/2" dob
then in the front center
the 28" Starmaster with
the C-14 in the front SW
corner.

Now the 2 back spaces or
nooks on either side on
the 20 footer (set in the
rear/north portion of the
observatory) will each
be made into 5 X 8
bathrooms. So each 40 ft.
container will have it's
own separate "head" and
shower.

The north end of each 40 ft.
cont. will have a division
wall built inside. So when
you open the large north
facing container doors this
will be your storage area.
(around 8 to 10 feet deep)

If the location is cold
the 40's west & east facing
walls will be straw bailed
for installation on the
outside then plastered.
Another idea could be
back filling the containers
then planting ground cover.

Also each of the 40's will
have eve's built over them
for shade/sun protection.
Wind power & solar if it's
off grid.

A barbed wirefence around
the parameter and a 1/2 doz.
large dinggos should finish her
off just fine.

Any takers?

Lets talk:

humphreys@greencafe.com

http://www.anzaobservatory.com

May you & yours always be in fine health and
great calm, with gratitude and warm aloha,

Lance aka "abellhunter":hi:

[mlcolbert]

a real kick arse location?

not meaning to be provocative, but perhaps we could compile a list of locations, each with their own benefits etc. But who chooses and on what 'grounds' so to speak? Two issues here.

Remember also that Finland is smaller than we are. That factor may have made the position choice easier.


michael

[Ric]

A very interesting idea Lance. I like your thoughts regarding the building of the Obs with shipping containers.

Costs may also be cheaper as well depending on the number of people who would like to buy a share in it. One problem I see and I may be wrong is as Australia is a vast island I just cant see people travelling a long way for a few nights viewing for example Perth to Coonabarabran is approx 4500km.
I couldn't see a lot of people wanting to invest in a scope they may only see through once every couple of years. This is easily overcome with remote imaging and no doubt there would be free time to members, but it's not the same as being there to see how your dollars are faring.

Cheers

[abellhunter]

G'day astro heads!

i've always been of the mind set that we can do ANYTHING! :thumbsup:

Let's Start...1st This is not a new idea.....

http://www.group70.org/about70.html

http://group70.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_70

........ here is a very ambitious group putting there money and talent together to build a 70 incher!:eyepop:

_____________________________

As some of you know allready i am looking to build an observatory and move
the ARSENAL down under!:D

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65
See post #354

To do it alone will be tough and not as fun as working with like minds.
So here are some more thoughts....;)

L O C A T I O N ~ L O C A T I O N ~ L O C A T I O N (PART#1)
___________________________________ __________________

Back in the states i was a member of the Orange County Astronomers, out of Southern California.....

http://www.ocastronomers.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_County_Astronomers

...to my knowledge they are the worlds most affluent amateur club. This
is because all of the Aerospace and high-tech jobs in the area. The members built a large compound of at least a dozen observatories. The largest contains the Bill Kuhn's 22".........

http://www.ocastronomers.org/astroimages/album.asp?cat=Misc+Club+Photos\Kuhn +Telescope

This was featured in the now defunct Telescope Maker Magazine from the
70s and 80s. Bill, a member of the OCA hand built this scope! Other's in the
club built the CCD......

Other accomplishments include a radio telescope, robo-scopes, live T.V.
feed to the Chapman Collage 100 miles away.

By the way i lived near by the OCA's Anza dark site near Palomar for 17 years.:thumbsup:

http://www.anzaobservatory.com (http://www.anzaobservatory.com/)

Which i wrote about in my astro-bio....

see post #2 & #3 regarding OCA etc...
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=27760

You get the picture. My point is this, best bet is starting with Australia's biggest club. One that comes to mind is.......

http://www.asnsw.com/

..........they have a dark site too.......

http://www.asnsw.com/wiruna/index.asp

Plus Sydney is a safe bet for amateurs with $$$.:)

Now i am in no way suggesting this club. i just use it as an example as i did
with my own Astonomy Club the OCA.:whistle:

L O C A T I O N ~ L O C A T I O N ~ L O C A T I O N (PART#2)
___________________________________ ____________________

Where is the Best Astro Site in OZ? a list is being built here.
This got 90 hits.......:thumbsup:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=27713&page=5

It's a start, but deals with the ideal spot i.e. "where can i get the most clear nights per year in OZ? i love Dry, Dark Skies with no night domes."

____________________888888888888888 8888___________________

Now regarding the use of shipping containers for building the observatory.
(Again see post #35 on this thread.)

They are cheap and well built and could even be used as "cottages" set around the large group observatory.

This is the first site i found that introduced me to the idea:

http://www.escapeartist.com/OREQ4/Nomadic_Housing2000_4.html

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam14/Nomadic_Housing.html

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam17/At_The_Edge.html
___________________________________ __________________________

Here's a great site showing the step be step process of converting a shipping container to an afforable home.

http://earthsci.org/education/fieldsk/container/container.html
___________________________________ __________________________

WOW! talk about building a CONTAINER CITY, ya gotta see this!

http://www.containercity.com/

Lakeside home with grass roof:

http://www.containercity.com/cove-park.html

Multi story apartments:

http://www.containercity.com/pinchin-street-studios.html
___________________________________ __________________________

Here are 2 links to the L.A. Beach House!

http://la.curbed.com/archives/2007/05/redondo_beach_c.php

http://blog.lamidesign.com/2006/07/ibu-shipping-container-based-house-for.html
___________________________________ __________________________

Three 40 footers stacked on two 20 footers:

http://www.quik-build.com/quikHouse/QH_main.htm
___________________________________ ________________________

Three 40s:

http://www.architectureandhygiene.com/oldLadyHouse/oldLadyHouse.html

___________________________________ _________________

Some great container architecture:

http://www.containerarchitecture.co.nz/portfolio/2.html

http://blog.lamidesign.com/2006/07/ibu-shipping-container-based-house-for.html

http://www.energistx.com/spaces/8x40multiuse.html

http://www.mac-containers.co.uk/pdf-downloads.htm
___________________________________ __________________

Intermodal Shipping Container Small Steel Buildings Book:

http://www.lulu.com/content/114565
___________________________________ _________________

Lets talk:

humphreys@greencafe.com

http://www.anzaobservatory.com (http://www.anzaobservatory.com/)

May you & yours always be in fine health and
great calm, with gratitude and warm aloha,

Lance aka "abellhunter":hi:

p.s. here are some shots of containers for use as an observatory, cottage...also the RCOS scopes and my old Anza Observatory.

[AJames]

This particular astronomical society you have stated as an example - and a few others I know - is that none of them wish to have such a large community observatory. Worst the idea has been rejected even among its members. No one seems to be interested in such a proposition, and just consider one large aperture as undesirable.
I, personally, have been not able to change this attitude over years - and some even decades - often meeting with just a brick wall of contempt.
The "core problem" with most the larger Societies is their lack of possibility and vision. Most just don't seem to understand what a large aperture can be used for - other than just looking through or imaging. (The latter : Wanting to chase the millionth unique picture of the Orion Nebula, as I have quipped on the odd occasion. Yes important for beginners - but there ARE other deep-sky objects that are more challenging and more unique.) None seem to believe or know in the options like photoelectric or CCD photometry, or spectroscopy - all still perceiving the huge canyon-like divide between the amateurs and the professionals - who only see the distinctive differences rather than grading of many different levels. Perhaps the best example is New Zealand's Auckland Observatory. Believe me, New Zealand astronomy, in this regard, makes the majority of Australian amateur look second-rate and sadly limited. Perhaps only Sutherland Astronomical Society has come the closest in regards such a level of observational and educational astronomy, followed by perhaps the Astronomical Society of Victoria / South Australia (ASSA).
The work achieved there has never be achieved in this country, except for a few scattered amateurs who have given the astronomical society "thing" the flick. As stated in previous post to this thread, most advanced astronomers realise it is better to do it alone - avoid the political hassles and the narrow vision they persistently present.
Really the only way is to show these groups is to expose them to the capabilities that amateurs can achieve, and be involved in a serious multi-observer observational endeavour.
Clearly, the best option is an telescope/ observatory that can be both remotely and physically accessed - with an aperture exceeding anything that individual astronomers could afford or maintain. Most societies don't realise that in doing some good serious research work can actually run with financial assistance - contributions from institutions and educational or research grants. Once this is established, the telescope can then be allocated usage time, of which a portion could be used for the purposes of optical / visual astronomy. Furthermore, the larger telescope can be used as a focus for astronomy, and what normally happens - like in the US as you example - is that your Society becomes the focus of amateur astronomy. This means an increase in members and the gravitational focus of other groups, eventually merged into a larger Society representing their State or Country.
Frankly, it is the distinct lack of vision these groups that I find so abhorrent. Basically it is about controlling people, empires and finances - and in the end we all lose - because they continue to wallow forever in mediocrity.
So unless a revolution by amateurs in the country are prepared to commit to a long term goal - and attempt to raise the bar - we will stay where we are.

Again, the question remains... If you have a large aperture, what would you ACTUALLY do with it? Answer that, and the size of telescope and the type of mount is determined.

I think there is NO amateur group in Australia at the moment is capable of taking up the challenge of such an endeavour.

(As a point, the Technical Sessions at the upcoming N.A.C.A.A. in Sydney over Easter with be talking on various aspects of large telescope construction and organisation - with example of telescope use and observational programmes or capabilities.)

I can tell you now, very few Societies have any intention of going to the next level. They are happy with their own "Empires".

My bet, is that it is better to just start another group, a follow something like the organisation I have selected below.

Still, I'd be interested in what others say, and if members of other local societies are aware of these old attitudes and precepts.

The self-professed "Revolutionary Bum",
Andrew

Note: As Richard Bach says;
"Argue our limitations, and sure enough their yours."

[netwolf]

25K maybe outside the reach of probably most people. For that you could have your own observatory. And there in lies the crux of the matter, your own observatory under your own control, Or one shared with others. Most people would go there own way. Some few have setup a observatory with a 2nd or third scope which they rent out to finance there equipment. This is not a bad idea, as it gives access to equipment and scopes to the mases that they may not be able to afford. Still there is some attraction to using your own equipment and doing it yourself. A small group of friends could probably put something together that they could share as a observing site etc. Perhaps some leased land from a farmer, used to host a observatory either for remote use and or local use few times a month.



Regards
Fahim

[xelasnave]

There was a subdivision in a dark place in the USA with covenants to suit astronomers..90 sites and they were snapped up by astronomers .. I think so many of the sites are remote control observatories but I am not sure..but even if remote as already noted you need a caretaker and really someone who may have to open up a dome and fix something...

But taking photos in a dark site whilst living in the city is now available...
AND I expect if doing research photos would be good:D...
I have found that I can get a fast net link up home so I am going to work to a remote set up and see if I can make it work from Sydney.. but it wont happen over night...

I think the views here have been very good and positive and it will be interesting to see if anything developes and the final form it may take..

But as it is still raining it is hard to think astronomy will ever be available to me again...
alex:):):)

[abellhunter]

G'day Andrew,

LOL! i like your straight shooting...... thank you for all your thoughtful comments.

_____________________

Re: "no one seems interested in such a proposition..."

Well, that's why i'm here, to see if there IS anyone with the desire to help a fellow amateur astronomer build a quality amateur observatory in the southern hemisphere.
_______________________

Re: "most just don't seem to understand what a large aperture can be used for..."

Good point. As you stated there are GREAT possibilities here.
____________________________

Re: "New Zealand astronomy....."

i've had some talk with NZ and have had good feedback.... even a few who even offered me a place to build. The only thing about NZ is: it's too far south for my taste. i love -15 thru' -25 the best. i want to see ALL THE SKY.
_______________________________

Re: "Serious research work...."

i'm all about freedom, if i team up with a group, i feel that anyone in that group can use their time to do what they like. If they feel drawn to M42, so be it. If they want to do photometry or any other high end research program, go for it!
________________________________

Re: "Really the only way is to show these groups is to expose them to the capabilities that amateurs can achieve, and be involved in a serious multi-observer observational endeavour."

Great point Andrew, this is it in a nut shell.
___________________________________

Re: "Again, the question remains... If you have a large aperture, what would you ACTUALLY do with it? Answer that, and the size of telescope and the type of mount is determined."

Well i own a 28 incher. The stuff i love to do is; hunt down globulars in M31 or the stellar associations in M33. Explore galaxy clusters, faint planetary nebulas, and then just get MIND BLOWING views of the show pieces!

You see, i am ALWAYS 10 years behind, so i am an old school visual observer who, when all is said and done just love sitting under the Milky Way from a pristine dark site and melt.

BUT, on the other side i have often hoped that i would find someone with say, CCD interest and have them get my old C-14 up to speed. You see,
i am a Zen guy, i don't want to be stuck behind a computer (how ironic!) when i could be in "real time".

[foot note]

having been into astronomy for 30 years, i love all of it. Every scope has it's object and when we look back at the hobby..... all i can say is: what a long strange trip its been!
___________________________________ __

Re: "I think there is NO amateur group in Australia at the moment is capable of taking up the challenge of such an endeavour...."

Bummer. Well, with 30K+ worth of scopes and a willingness to build the observatory i've had some real good feedback in just one month here.
So, never say never. i know something will get built and the 28" will be
exploring the Southern skies soon. Heck, with cheap, dark land in the
outback, with my container observatory idea..... oh it will happen. The
only question is will i be out there with just the dingoes or will there be like minds enjoying this vision too?

See post #35 & #38 on this thread
___________________________________ _______

Re: The self-professed "Revolutionary Bum",
Andrew

LOL! Right-on, i'm with ya!

Lance aka "abellhunter"

http://www.anzaobservatory.com

[Aussie Pete]

Well, actually. Yes.

Pete

Had to answer the guy Mike :) hehe

[AJames]

Sorry to revamp this tread again, but anyone interested in forming a National Amateur Observatory might like to use this information to work towards such a future potential.

I have just read an interesting article entitled "The Centarion 18 telescope of the Wide Observatory", which appears at the Arxiv Site, which has been submitted for publication in the Astrophysics and Space Science in February 2008. (See pdf file; http://arxiv.org/pdf/0802.0821 )
This observatory, produces observations that are made in the most cases, remotely. As said in the introduction, the purpose was to ;

"The operation of the C18 is now automatic, requiring only start-up at the beginning of a night and close-down at dawn. The observations are mostly performed remotely from the TelAviv campus or even from the observer’s home. The entire facility was erected for a component cost of about 70k$ and a labour investment of a total of one man-year.
We describe three types of projects undertaken with this new facility: the measurement of asteroid light variability with the purpose of determining physical parameters and binarity, the following up of transiting extrasolar planets, and the study of AGN variability. The successful implementation of the C18 demonstrates the viability of small telescopes in an age of huge light-collectors, provided the operation of such facilities is very efficient."

This is a good read for anyone seriously considering such an endeavours - privately or through your local astronomical society.

There are several information sites presented through this document. Oe of interest, which shows the potential of remote observatories appears at
ACP Observatory Control Software; (Ie. http://acp.dc3.com/index2.html )
There are some videos showing how such systems work at this site;
http://forums.dc3.com/videos/videos.html
An slightly more detail example of astronomical imaging can be downloaded at; http://forums.dc3.com/videos/ACP/SimplePlan/SimplePlan.html
(There are other examples of such software, but my selection here is merely for illustration. It should not be construed by me as any kind of endorsement - as every thing else here.)

All this proves is a National Astronomical Observatory is indeed possible. The problem is the paradigms adopted by the astronomical societies in this country. I make no apology, especially the Top 4 Societies in this country, who have the sufficient resources to enable such a dream to be fulfilled. However, without the will to accept such adoptions, there is little chance of such endeavours being available for amateurs in this country. I know (personally), there is much resistance to such changes - which IMO is very detrimental to amateur astronomy because it does not allow the real potential of its members and the science (or education) to contribute proudly or meaningfully to Australian astronomy.

If you are a member of an Astronomical Society, perhaps now is the time to challenge the Committees to begin recommending investigation to fulfilling such potential options and show some leadership.

The present state of Navel searching here is no a good enough reason anymore for the complete lack of action.

Regards,
Andrew

COMMENT: Cloud and Weather Sensors One of the earlier points that I made in this thread was observational surveillance of observing sites. There is available, a commercial sky sensor, which is ideal for night use. (Presently not supported by the BOM) One of these is The Boltwood Cloud Sensor II, (http://www.cyanogen.com/products/cloud_main.htm), which is about $AU2000. This would be a worthwhile investment for the individual observations site by solitary amateurs or Societies. Such a device could be useful for site testing, and could be used as a sensor for a remote observatory. A review of such a system is at;
http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=1261

Disclaimer: The examples here is merely for illustration. It should not be construed by me as any kind of endorsement - as everything else here.

[bojan]

More about city lights...
This reminds me of a slogan used here in Vic "Speed kills"... Which leads to speed limit enforcement on freeways and of course fines if the speed limit is breached. And all this is here despite the facts that in Germany, for example, there is NO speed limit at all on Autobahns.. If your car can speed with 500km/h it is OK. Nobody will force you to slow down.
And, there is no statistic that points to a conclusion that there is any more accidents there than here. Yes, when it happens that's it but still..
The same applies to city illumination. It is a mind-set, and what we really need are amateur astronomers in city councils....

Edit:
Of course, by no means I am trying to say here that we should speed on our roads in the inhabited areas. I put that just as an example of how useful may be to put forward the examples of other cities and countries.

[AJames]

After reading posts elsewhere on this forum. IDIOT !! I now realise now where my thinking is probably wrong.

Never dawned on me that other COMMERCIAL forces were in operation in this avenue of astronomy - and are on the rise - even some being deeply embedded within the context of the Australian "Amateur" Society and Star Party scene.

No wonder some of these "groups" don't want to follow this logical course of action.

Obviously having an "Amateur National Observatory" would be not in the interests of these kinds of individuals. Ie. Cutting into their profits. Ah! the ye ol' profit motive again... So much for "non-profit organisations" operating guise of members best interest.

Clearly they are the problem not the solution.

Apologies for being so stupid!

Andrew

Question : Are these others who make profit from other amateurs really "amateur astronomers" or should they be called vendors - for want of a better word - or something else? Ferengi?

[bojan]

It is very hard to define "amateur" astronomer today..
In times when I was beginning with this amazing hobby, it was assumed that people will build their own instruments because to buy them was simply incomprehensible, for two reasons: price (of equipment) and pride (of individual or group or club).
The same thing applied to radio-amateurs (ham-radio amateurs).
But today, everything is commercialized. Even pride.

[AJames]

Just some food for additional thought, where the truth lies in some of the aphorisms of the "Ferengi Rules of Acquisition"

Rule 47 : "Never trust a man wearing a better suit than your own."

Rule 208: "Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer." :lol:

Rule 285 : "No good deed ever goes unpunished."

Rule 299 : "After you've exploited someone, it never hurts to thank them. That way, it's easier to exploit them next time."

Rule : ? : "When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits... kill the messenger."

But the best by far here is Rule 75:

"Home is where the heart is, but the stars are made of latinum." *

Andrew

Note See [ http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Ferengi_Rules_of_Acquisition ]
For those who don't know, latinum is a rare silver liquid used as currency of the Ferengi

[Louwai]

Exactly one of the reasons I don't frequent MPAS anymore Ken.
I've been there several times. All but 2 of these visits were on their public viewing nights & as such I was happy to help them make money for the club by allowing my scope to be used for the public.
I was late with my club fees (as I am with SV) & there was one individual who is well positioned in the MPAS, that was very vocal about stamping out the non-paying users of their facility. All the while directing his comments at me.
Considering that 95% of my visits were on their public viewing nights & I was helping them to make money for the club, I thought this was a bit uncalled for.
Anyway, due to his comments I've decided to NOT pay my fees this year & not return to MPAS.