Where is the Best Astro Site in OZ?

[abellhunter]

Questions:

O.K, where can i get the most clear nights per year in OZ?

i love Dry, Dark Skies with no night domes.

___________________________________ _______________


If you were going to build an observatory/home what would be your
short list of best locations?

Please take into consideration the following: a town within
60 or so miles. A place where you can buy land and will have
water. And lastly, will stay dark for the next 20 years.

___________________________________ _______________

my short list is Coonabarabran & somewhere outside of Alice Springs.
i like Alice a little more just because you can see allot of the
northern sky at -23

Any comments, ideas or suggestions would a great help...

___________________________________ ________________
Best Wishes, Lance

[davidpretorius]

Welcome to the forum Lance and hopefully Welcome to Australia in the near future

Are you interested in planetary ie good seeing places or mainly dark clear skies?

[Nightshift]

NOT coastal Queensland. It's so long since I saw the night sky the stars coud have all gone supernova and I wouldnt know about it.

[astrojase]

backyard

[duncan]

Welcome Lance,
Yep Alice Springs to my mind as well. I'm sick of the coastal fringe weather!
Cheers:thumbsup:

[GrampianStars]

:D My Place in the Grampians :thumbsup:

[fringe_dweller]

Lance, now is not a good time maybe wait 50-100 years? as the recources boom is going even more mental. they are digging up oz at an alarming rate now, where ever you put it, and probably the more remote and dark the worse, you could wake up one morning with a dirty great big mine (with small town/trucks/traffic/dust) next to ya in your pristine dark sky
i notice arkaroola is to get a huge uranium mine, wonder how they feel about that at the astro site there - and another one closer to broken hill

[fringe_dweller]

http://www.arkaroola.com.au/mining.php

[astrojase]

Starkler posted a cool link of light polluted Australia
http://www.inquinamentoluminoso.it/worldatlas/pages/fig9.htm

I guess anywhere where it is black (on the map) would be good...

Arkaroola is amazingly dark...ah the memories...

[Ric]

Hi Lance and welcome to IIS, I hope you enjoy your stay.

I have heard a lot of people speak highly of Coonabarabran. The last time I was there was about 10 years ago and it knocked my socks of.

I'm also very happy with my patch of soil as well.

Cheers

[glenc]

Lance, these maps will help you find clear skies.
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/climatology/solar_radiation/IDCJCM0019_solar_exposure.shtml
The Gregory Ranges inland from Cairns and Townsville in Qld are good but they may not meet all of your criteria.
Here is some more data:
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/

[xelasnave]

Welcome Lance ...
I like my spot as it is home but the weather has me beat at the moment but when its clear it is good as there is little industry here to contribute to making the little light polution worse... plenty of water and reasonably close to beaches and fair sized towns... the likelyhood of developemnt seems remote as we are too far from our state capital for anyone to care...

Best idea get a camper van and live in that ... I have seriously considered same because of the hobby.

best wishes

alex

[Cronulla_Chris]

I managed to get to White Cliffs in western NSW a couple of years ago. The nights are to die for.

[madtuna]

Hillend NSW.

Being a historic gold mining town and protected by the national trust, it cant grow any bigger.

The houses there can be bought extremely cheap, the only covenant is they must keep thier external historic appearance...but what you do to the inside is up to you.
Still only 1 hour from Bathurst and 3 from Sydney.

Beautiful clear black skies!
Being both an astronomy and metal detecting nut, it suits me down to the ground!

[Night Owl]

I drove a mates POS Cameira stationwagon from Melbourne, via Sydney, Mt Isa, to Katherine, and slept in the car or on the ground all the way.
Anyway, I saw three cars in 24 hours on this road, and I stopped here one night...

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=&sll=-37.192391,142.612667&sspn=0.050118,0.114155&ie=UTF8&ll=-20.005144,137.205854&spn=0.003695,0.007135&t=h&z=18&om=0

And I'm telling you absolutely NO light pollution. I tried to sleep on the ground in my bag, but could not shut my eyes. I stayed awake till 3:00am because of the WOW factor of the detail I had never seen before. If I had a scope I might not have ever left!

Seriously, the air is so dry there, and you are 300km from the nearest light bulb. If I was serious about viewing, I wouldn't hesitate to spend a week there.

[citivolus]

I figure somewhere inland from Carnarvon, around the area they are looking at building the square kilometre array. If they did build, it would have dark sky protection by virtue of the prohibition that would put on development because of the need for radio silence (see http://www.atnf.csiro.au/SKA/ms32.pdf ). The area also has very good historic numbers for clear sky and low rainfall, at least from the info of the BOM. Just build your observatory to handle the occasional cyclone :)

I'm not certain how good the access to water would be, though.

[ballaratdragons]

I was about to suggest up near the top of Mt. Kosciusko, but then I remembered that all the Ski Villages would have all their floodlights on at night :screwy:

[glenc]

I agree with White Cliffs NSW and with the road from Mt Isa Qld to Tennant Ck and Katherine NT.
Buy a van and you can travel to the best place depending on the season.
Here is some more data: http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/climatology/sunshine_hours/sunhrs.shtml

[citivolus]

After a bit of searching, Roebourne, on the NW coast of WA averages 234.9 clear days a year (vs 43.9 cloudy): http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_004035_All.shtml

You would definitely be needing a cooled CCD there, though, and would still need to build cyclone proof :) I'm also not certain how it fairs with the jet stream, and am making a bit of a dangerous assumption that clear days == clear nights.

[abellhunter]

G,day astro heads!

you guys rock! Thanx for all the help..... i went Down Under in
2005 for back to back astro events. Both were held on the shores of
Lake Titicaca, Bolivia..... Dark, Dry and 12,500 feet elevation! After
34 days (all August +) i went home and kept asking my self "what
the hell am i'm do'ing here..... i only see 1/2 the milk!"

If ya got a minute check out my ol' observatories at:

http://www.anzaobservatory.com

i built 3 over a 17 yr period at this site, where i could see the
dome of Palomar Observatory from. The last being a 28 X 24 foot
steel building with a roll off roof. This is what i want to copy down
south.

Also on my web site is my "Go South" page that gives ya an
idea how i roll.

Best Wishes, Lance

28" Starmaster w/goto
17 1/2" w/DSC
C-14 w/Argo Navis
20 X 125mm astro binocs

[erick]

Nice little observatory there!!! :eyepop: Congratulations!


Yes, "Go South!" - we can only agree!

[fringe_dweller]

dont forget they count cirrus/thin high cloud as clear skies

[ausastronomer]

Hi Lance,

Sometimes remote desert or plains style locations like Alice Springs are not so good because of dust particulate in the air. In addition they have minimal elevation. Sometimes they can turn it on, unfortunately any wind usually turns it to stone.

I observe regularly at Coonabarabran. I will be going there for 10 days at the end of Feb and that will make 28 days at Coona in the past year. I do a similar schedule every year. Last October we hosted a group of 8 Americans including Dave Kreige from Obsession telescopes at Coonabarabran for 8 days. We had several great nights. Two nights were superb. On one of those nights Dave Kriege, who has observed all over the world, commented that these were the best observing conditions he had ever experienced, apart from 1 solitary night atop Mona Kea, which has an enormous elevation advantage. Coona has the advantage of protection from light pollution within a 200km radius of the AAT at Siding Springs, which is about 30km out of Coona. They have a light pollution protection policy where every external light within a 200km radius of the AAT has to have a top cover preventing any light shining upwards. It works very well. I got genuine "best" repeated readings on my Unihedron SQM of 21.8 to 21.88 from 15km out of Coona in October. That sky quality is exceptional, and you will not see it anywhere in CONUS.

I have also observed in many other parts of Australia and New Zealand. The single best observing sight I know of in Australia is atop Mt Kaputar, which is a little ways out of Narrabri and about 1.5 to 2 hrs drive from Coonabarabran. It is a national park and it offers the best combination of exceptional seeing, very dark skies, combined with brilliant transparency and good elevation. Unfortunately from your point of view I don't think there is the likelihood of building an observatory up there as it is a national park. You can always ask though.

http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/parks.nsf/parkcontent/n0038?Opendocument&ParkKey=N0038&Type=xo

Cheers,
John B

[Fox]

Hi Lance
well, I am no die hardcore astronomer compared to the likes of many others on this board, but I extend a warm welcome all the same. Those webpages of yours are a fine read, and I know we all share the passion in those words. I never ever get tired of those Southern sky highlights you mention, the LMC and SMC, and that stretch from Crux/Carina towards Canis Major is beyond belief under a dark sky, I love this time of the year. Fox!

[Karlsson]

I can second that: like John, I'm also a regular 'pilgrim' to Coona, and when I was there last December I was told that there are plans to extend the radius to 250 km.

However... indeed, the elevation ranges only between 450 and 600 meters - we don't have anything like 12,500 ft in Oz... And as I found out on my last visit- when the clouds do roll in they can linger around for days on end...:(

[matt]

Many years ago I lived in the central west NSW town of Orange.

I didn't own a scope then.

At 950 metres above sea level and west of the Great Dividing Range...I have often wondered since what the seeing and conditions would be like for imaging?

[abellhunter]

_____________________________

Thank you for the report! Yes i have been doing a lot of "digging" myself
regarding where & where not build an observatory in OZ. Being a "Stop-
the war/tree huggin-Counter Culture type", i always look to see if
there are any "messes" around. When researching Arkaroola i "dug" this up:

"Working Uranium Mines"

"520 kilometers north of Adelaide, on the
plains north-west of Lake Frome and 25
kilometers north east of the Arkaroola
Resort in the northern Flanders Ranges..."

i found this info at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_uranium_mines

yea what's this world turning into? i can only surmise i it's a "tragic comedy"
and just laugh it off........

Lance

[abellhunter]

___________________________________ _________________

Re: OZ at night

Well done! Thats awesome OZ is looking GREAT!

___________________________________ ___________________

Re: "Arkaroola"


Yes, in regards to Arkroola, a place that i know
all about their set up from their web page.
(love the robo-binos!) i thought you may want
to know this:

"Working Uranium Mines"

"520 kilometers north of Adelaide, on the
plains north-west of Lake Frome and 25
kilometers north east of the Arkaroola
Resort in the northern Flanders Ranges..."
i found this info at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_uranium_mines

i maybe of a different mind set than you,
but just FYI. This place, including the
air & water maybe foul to say the least.

peace out, Lance aka "abellhunter"

[abellhunter]

___________________________________ _____________________


Nice report, thank you...... here's more of where i've been and where
i want to go: (see my post #354 in the thread)

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65

Again thanx for the info! If you have anymore ideas you can eMail me at:

humphreys@greencafe.com

Lance aka "abellhunter"

[abellhunter]

___________________________________ _________

Thanx mate
yes, i have seen the sky in it's "pure form". Now i can't do with the same-old/same-old!

http://www.anzaobservatory.com/gosouth.html

This was a life changing event to say the least! Ever since then i cannot help but think i have been cheated in the the north! i have been searching for a place down south to build an observatory ever since.

Be well& thanx again, Lance aka "abellhunter"

[abellhunter]

___________________________________ ____________-

Well glad you like the ol anza observatory!

http://www.anzaobservatory.com

as you know i'm looking to move it to OZ:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65
See post #354 re: my southern hemisphere plans.

Who knows it might me in your 'hood!

oh yea................ in regards to YOUR NECK try these:

(bottom pix)

Be well, Lance aka "abellhunter"

[abellhunter]

___________________________________ _______

Thanx Alex,

i see Byron Bay is in your neck of the wood's..... this place is close to
my heart, being a "drop-out" of sorts!

Re: "get a camper" i'd have get a BIG ONE! hehehehehehehehe

here's where my heads at:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65
See post #354 re: my southern hemisphere plans.

*Note equipment & observatory photos.

peace out, Lance aka "abellhunter"

[astrojase]

abell, yeah uranium mining certainly doesnt conjure up the nicest mental picture - they leach up that way. I stayed at Arkaroola for 10 days a couple of years ago - awesome facility (drank the spring water there - clean and tasty!)...The Bino chairs are very cool, stable and provide excellent views through the 20 x 80 Vixens. The joystick control makes you feel like you are flying a spaceship through the galaxy (metaphorically speaking).

One of the hill tops across from Sillers Lookout was originally chosen as the preferred site for the Anglo Australian observatory as the best place in Australia (for atmospheric conditions etc). I beleive they went with Siding Springs, because logistically, the Flinders Rangers was considered too remote (even though it was/is the best place).

A very hostile and arid place all the same...ie: beautiful!!! But so are places like Mauna Kei etc...

[xelasnave]

Lance I have 200 acres of bush and probably the highest hill top around here (well next door is a little higher) I cleared it to put an observatory you are welcome to consider that if you like..

There is no grid power, closest neighbour about 3 klms away who uses 12 vlt lights if he stays up past 9 pm.

I have one light but mostly I use candles.


The view South is light free until you get to Grafton some 100 klms by road but my view is over mostly state forrest..in fact you go past a sign that says state forrest some 4 klms before you get to my place..I am 30 klms South of the proverbial one horse town called Tabualm ..so it is dark up home... I went to Coona once and think I get a better view of the Southern Sky then at their observatory because there is some light polution ...still they have got me on the above sea level thing I think.

During the summer it can be wet as it is now but in winter it is wonderful...

I have done widefields with 55mm canon 300d standard lens and the longest was 45 minutes and it still did not white out... but 20 minute on widefields is what I like best..and have got my mount to go 9 minutes so other shots I go for 9 minutes now (er when the clouds clear)

The life style is pretty good... mainly old hippies in the hills and cow punchers on the flats... Casino is the first major town heading East (50 klms from Tabby) then Lismore ..then over to Balina..a bit up for Byron..

I have had two star paries first one one guest (Glen from here) and the seond two guests Glen and Rob also form here... so I dont know you could say we have a strong club thing going.
Security is not an issue as to the original inhabitants where I am is sortta spooky for them.. anyways anyone who comes into the road is noted and tracked most times by the few nerveous hippies further down my road.
Anyways if you are up this way get in touch if you can see yourself in this region...

There is plenty of rock and sand for building and plenty of millable trees (hard wood)

I wont be selling the place so what you put there can stay as long as you are alive or longer...

alex

[xelasnave]

this was a duplicate that I posted somehow and have now removed
alex:):):)

[abellhunter]

[quote=astrojase;289040]abell, yeah uranium mining certainly doesnt conjure up the nicest mental picture - .......(drank the spring water there - clean and tasty!)...

OH SH#T! Your the green guy right! LOL ahahahahahahahahahaha

BE WELL!, abell:lol:

[abellhunter]

___________________________________ _____________________


yea, your offer is on the short list for sure!:thumbsup: i got an eMail from a
guy in NZ (North Island) who say's he'll meet me at the airport
and carry my bags..... i think that 28" makes 'em CrAzY!:P

i'll let you know when i'll be flyin' in so the tribe can prepare the
peace pipe.:D

aloha, Lance

[§AB]

You'll want to avoid Melbourne coz our climate just plain sucks - as an astronomer, seeing 4x more of that famous southern ocean slate grey, low-level drizzly stratocrapulus cloud than clear skies in any given year really ticks me off. Somewhere like Northwestern Vic is excellent due to the nearly constant clear weather and completely flat terrain for 100's of km in all directions, leading to steady seeing.

[xelasnave]

28 inch !!! do you want to burn your eye balls out?
Good luck Lance
alex

[abellhunter]

___________________________________ ___________________________

i only look at the fuzzzies! NO PLANETS!:D

oh yea, here's my astro-bio:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=27760

Lance

[citivolus]

See the attached image from an unfinished project of mine - it shows the number of cloudy days per year for each of the given locations. The larger the spot, the more cloud. It would seem to agree with you. (weather data from the BOM)

Edit: new graphic uploaded to later post.

[abellhunter]

___________________________________ ___________________

i've kept log books for years....... they average 100+ nights a yr
and 400+ hours. Thats over 95% moonless deep sky stuff. i do
globulars in M31 and other abell gx cluster stuff for fun.

Soooooooooooo i gotta have a serious site or i'll cry:( like a baby!

waaaaaaaaaaaaa.......Lance aka "abellhunter"

[abellhunter]

___________________________________ _____________________


thanx, i love your work and the links too! :thumbsup:

It takes me HOURS to find this stuff on my own... big thanx!:eyepop:

Lance

[CoombellKid]

We also meet in Coombell and north Casino, you just got to get out of the
hills more often :lol:

Interesting you say you can see Gaftons light dome, I'm about 90kms north
of Grafton and never see it, mind you your 200m higher than me.

regards,CS

[xelasnave]

No I can not see it was my point Rob.. I was only saying it was the closest place where they didnt go to bed a 9 pm.. and a possible light source...

Sorry for any confusion

alex

[glenc]

"See the attached image from an unfinished project of mine - it shows the number of cloudy days per year for each of the given locations. The larger the spot, the more cloud."
Nice work citivolus. :thumbsup: There are some small dots in Far North Qld, good for seeing the northern sky.

[CoombellKid]

Central WA is looking good :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

regards,CS

[taminga16]

"Interesting you say you can see Gaftons light dome, I'm about 90kms north
of Grafton and never see it, mind you your 200m higher than me."

Some years ago whilst on a road trip, we stopped at Siding Springs and the fellow that showed us around the AAO (pre guided tour days) said that the light dome from Sydney was becoming a problem then. (1995 I think)

Not in Australia I know, but I have often thought that the dark side of the moon would be a good viewing location.

Greg.

[§AB]

EDIT - I just saw the better image. I can feel my blood pressure rise....



grrrr

I almost forgot - atleast 1/4 to 1/2 of the already minimal clear nights here are windy - like now. *runs off to kill punching bag*

[Karlsson]

Below is a very crude and unscientific attempt to superimpose Eric's cloud map on the light pollution map... it narrows down the choices a bit, so to speak.

Now the best places left have one thing in common: their names all end with '-desert', so that's easy to remember. :whistle:

Anyone ever done any work on mapping seeing conditions?

[citivolus]

Yes, very good. I'm wondering about visiting some hilltops 800km or so north of Perth...

Until I did that graphic, I didn't realize just how much more cloud there was down south.

Attached is the latest version, with data for state capitals as well as notably high cloud areas and those with the least cloudy days.

Eric

[glenc]

Thanks Eric, I am looking for 4 things:
1. low amounts of cloud
2. high altitude
3. low light pollution
4. as far north in Oz as possible so I can see all of the milky way.
Eric you might be interested in observing from Undara at the end of August.
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=21081&highlight=undara&page=2
Here is an altitude map:
http://www.geoimage.com.au/geoweb/dems/australia_dem_sample.htm

[§AB]

So according to the map, I take it that there are 250 days a year in Melbourne when there is over 75% cloud cover?

I think I'm going to be sick:help:

[glenc]

The Gregory Ranges in north Qld are clear this morning.
http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDE00902.loop.shtml

[astrojase]

LMFAO - must change that avatar at some stage, or keep out conversations involving radiation.

Peace..!

p.s. you are right though, some of the hot springs there (ie: Paralana) are slightly radioactive - Helium 3 I'm told... The avatar I use here must bath there regularly...

[citivolus]

Actually, the official number for Melbourne is 179, but that 250 is so nearby that the labels overlap. The prime offenders are 250 at Piedmont (-37.90 145.97), 209 @ Mt. Dandenong (-37.83 145.35), 191 @ Powellton (-37.86 145.74), and Wonthaggi (-38.61 145.60) is 204 days/year. That said I'm never moving to Melbourne :lol:

Here is the Piedmont ("Noojee") station link: http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_085277.shtml
Woohoo, 25.7 clear days a year!

[§AB]

Truly unnacceptable. I am about to regurtitate my innards in disgust. I wonder how this compares with other infamously cloudy places.


It's a disgrace.

[citivolus]

Portland, Oregon, has 222 cloudy days per year (>80% cloud cover), and 68 clear days (<20%). I can't think of any other notoriously cloudy places offhand :) That puts them at about the same as Mt. Dandenong, with maybe 10 extra clear days thrown in.

[StarLane]

Leyburn QLD is the dark sky site my astro club uses and it's pretty amazing for a site that's only a couple of hours from Brisbane where the sky opens up, real dark.
After growing up in Tamworth NSW I can vouch for Coonabarabran as a great dark sky site. Around Tamworth is OK, but not far away, Coona is amazing,.... drive an hour further west and Gilgandra is even better.

[ballaratdragons]

That combination Cloud and Light Pollution map is a ripper, but I don't get the two areas with massive light pollution in the oceans (see 2 red circled areas in pic below).

They can't be oil rigs as they are the size and brightness of large cities!!!!!!!

[duncan]

I thought the cicles was cloud cover?

In any case an oil rig probably puts out the same light as a city,LOL

[Karlsson]

Ken,

The one off Karratha (WA) is almost certainly gas production, and the one off E Vic might also be gas - there is gas production in E Gippsland, but whether it is related I'm not sure...

Take a look at the LP map for W Europe at the website, and you will see that it looks like the North Sea is full of 'brightness of large cities' - all oil rigs. Same across the Persian Gulf and SE Nigeria - almost the only lit-up place in Africa.

Now let's pray there is nothing of value to be dug up in Coonabarabran - or in Snake Valley, for that matter....:rolleyes:

[citivolus]

New map, I think I am done playing now :)

I have 30 arc second topo that I could use as the background, but to be honest it isn't going to prove much - the BOM doesn't, generally speaking, stick their climate stations on the tops of mountains. They are mostly in the middle of populated areas, so we lack real data for the hills.

For those who are curious, that spot with 169.8 clear days on the central coast of NSW is Harrington, 31.87 °S 152.68 °E, on the coast near Taree.

I've also included the data for Coonabarabran, for those interested.

[ausastronomer]

Whilst I don't doubt the accuaracy of these figures for low areas, I can add the following in regard to the "higher level areas".

Steven Lee and other staff who work at the AAT, keep a very detailed record of all the relevant weather conditions each and every night at the AAT at Siding Springs, as part of their observational logs and respective telescope usage. I was chatting with Steven in October about the number of clear nights at Coona. He indicated that each year they averaged just over "200" clear observing nights, on top of the mountain.

Cheers,
John B

[glenc]

Great maps Eric. (post #63 ) Croydon in Qld looks good but a bit hot and low elevation.
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_029012.shtml
The Roebourne area is great if you live in WA.
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_004035.shtml

[AJames]

Hi all

Interesting thread. Much of the site testing in Australia were made after the WWII. Some of this information remains in the National Library in Canberra.

Some papers exist on the subject, especially on the number of clear nights and seeing. After these works, Australia was considered a generally poor observing place - mainly as the mountains here were not high enough to place telescopes. Sadly the desert sites, although dark, is deem unsuitable due to distances to get there and the gross temperature extremes - especially in summer.

1) Interested readers here should download the probably definitive ADS pdf article written in 1960 by Bart Bok on this very subject, including a few maps. Ie. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1960JRASC..54..257B

Tables I and II are especially interesting.

2) Measuring seeing for site testing appears in a note also by Bart Bok in 1959.
Ie. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1959Obs....79..219B

3) As to the AAO, you can read about the Early History of the AAO, which has some information on site selection.
Ie. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1985QJRAS..26..393L

4) Also interesting in Russell Cannon's "Some comments on large telescope astronomy in Britain and Australia.", which discusses placing very larger telescope in Australia and Britain. There are some comments on the general site conditions in Australia.
Ie. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1989Ap%26SS.160..275C

================
It should be possible to do your own site test, which could probably be made using daily satellite information from the weather bureau of the cloud cover at one site or another. Cloud cover, measured by either Campbell-Stokes sunshine recorders (a glass sphere burning marks on a card.) or so-called specially made gas-phase nephelometers - the latter used to measure daylight transparency (technically called; "atmospheric albedo") and distant visibility to the horizon. I read once about how one could be made, which I think was in Amateur Scientist in an old Scientific American.

Although these are important professional papers, there are many clues about general site selection. These sources are fairly uncomplicated reading.

Hope all this is useful/ :thumbsup:
Andrew

Note: Point 1 is a must to Read

[Karlsson]

Here is Eric's 'Clear Days' map, again superimposed on the light pollution map. All colours have been converted to scales of gray in order to improve readability, so now the darkest spots are the best to observe from a 'clear day' and darkness perspective - atmospheric conditions are not accounted for, and the limitations Eric noted apply here too.

Still crude and unscientific, but it does give a rough idea...perhaps time to start contemplating The Great Tibooburra Star Party....;)

[fringe_dweller]

so in conclusion, oz is a terrible place to view the night sky - geeez why do we bother? :lol: best stay away world :P shhhhhhh

[citivolus]

Thanks for all that, it was interesting to read through. I wonder what good dark sky sites were excluded at the time due to remoteness, which today might be looked upon more favourably?

One more graphic, to make it easier for those who like to overlay additional data. This one was done using interpolation of the climate station data to create a 3 arc minute grid, allowing a higher level of detail to show through in the areas in which it was available.

[AJames]

I think at the time there were a number of places that we set aside - Maralinga is one that come to mind - where the British decided to do some atomic bomb tests. Also Woomera region was rejected because of the security defence area This was probably why the observing sites like in the Flinders Ranges were never finally considered.
Another significant problem with desert regions was/is dust, with significant maintenance cost of clean mirrors and mechanical parts of the mount.
Yet the big issue remains altitude to get as less atmosphere as possible between the telescope and size.
Places like Kata Tjuta and Uluru, would be great places for large observatories - but the Aboriginal people I think might object a wee bit if we did that.
If it were me, I'd place an observatory somewhere on the ancient West Australian-Northern Territory plateau, several hundred kilometres either north or west of these places, and construct either a remote observatory - serviced every month or two. It is the right latitude, and still dark enough from any main city.
If I was made the "Australian Minister for Astronomy" and was going to select my ideal site, it would be on the north-western edge of the Nullabour in Western Australia, where the flat plain rises into the plateau. This would be abut 400 km east of Kalgoorlie and 300 kilometres from the Great Australian Bight , and roughly 80km north-west of a place called Rawlinna. The area is near an ancient inland river that once moved from north to south and flowed into the shallow sea that is now the Nullaboor [plain]. While remote, it would be the darkest of sites in all of Australia and would remain so for ages. (See attached map)
While this fantasy won't happen, you could at least be far from the maddening crowd! :D

[Karlsson]

OK, below is the last instalment: Eric's 3' grid map and the light pollution map superimposed. Still crude, but a bit less unscientific.

The two faint red lines contain the 25°-35° latitude belt identified in Bart Bok's paper (indeed, interesting reading!), and the red dot E of Kalgoorlie is the spot Andrew mentions in his post below - the nearest station happens to be called 'Seemore Downs', so someone out there agrees with him...:)

[Karlsson]

Between a rock and a hard place... 'looked upon more favourably' would likely include road or air access, and inasmuch as this is available in remote locations it primarily serves the mining industry... i.e. many inland roads lead to badly light polluted areas...:(

[glenc]

Some Bureau of Meteorology Places With Reasonable Clear Skies, In Summer, In Order Are:

1. EAST of longitude 141 degrees which is the NSW & Vic border.
Mildura Post Office
Tibooburra Post Office
Condobolin Retirement Village
Albury Pumping Station
Bourke Post Office

2. CENTRAL (long 129 to 141) western Qld, NT, SA
Marree (Farina)
Leigh Creek Aero
Birdsville Police Station
Moomba
Finke Post Office

3. WEST of longitude 129 degrees which is the WA border.
Denham
Hamelin Pool
Barrow Island
Medina Research Centre
Paynes Find

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/

[glenc]

Some Bureau of Meteorology Places With Reasonable Clear Skies, In Autumn, In Order Are:

1. East Of Longitude 141 Degrees Which Is The NSW & Vic Border.
Julia Creek Post Office
Tibooburra Post Office
Longreach Post Office
Croydon Township Qld
Charleville Post Office

2. Central (Long 129 To 141) Western Qld, NT, SA
Cloncurry Airport
Tennant Creek Post Office
Moomba
Birdsville Police Station
Wave Hill

3. WA
Bidyadanga
Port Hedland Post Office
Cockatoo Island
Koolan Island
Broome Post Office

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/

[glenc]

Some Bureau of Meteorology Places With Reasonable Clear Skies, In Winter, In Order Are:

1. East Of Longitude 141 Degrees: Qld, NSW & Vic.
Croydon Township Qld
Julia Creek Post Office Qld
Georgetown Post Office Qld
Normanton Post Office Qld
Richmond Post Office Qld

2. Central (Longitude 129E To 141E) NW of Qld, NT & SA
Wooliana
Cloncurry Airport
Newcastle Waters Post Office
Wave Hill
Kidman Springs

3. WA
Mount Elizabeth
Cockatoo Island
Wyndham
Bidyadanga
Koolan Island

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/

[glenc]

Some Bureau of Meteorology Places With Reasonable Clear Skies, In Spring, In Order Are:

1. East Of Longitude 141 Degrees: Qld, NSW & Vic.
Croydon Township Qld
Georgetown Post Office Qld
Julia Creek Post Office Qld
Richmond Post Office Qld
Longreach Post Office Qld

2. Central (Longitude 129E To 141E) NW of Qld, NT & SA
Cloncurry Airport Qld
Mount Isa Post Office Qld
Tennant Creek Post Office NT
Borroloola NT
Ngukurr NT

3. WA
Mandora
Cockatoo Island
Bidyadanga
Mardie
Broome Post Office

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/

[AJames]

Happy Australia Day to My Fellow Australians!
May Our Spirit Under the Southern Cross Never Set On Our Shores!!
Aussie, Aussie, Aussie. Oi! Oi!, Oi!

Glenn
Just some general comments. One of the biggest problems with weather forecasting, is that the majority of the predictions are tailored for daylight. While it is true that these trends follow an almost predictable phenomena, the problem with night time observations is that what is interesting to all astronomers seldom have any real data. An example is cloud cover, where most devices measuring the % cloud are not made at night. This is also true of atmospheric transparency and visibility of the horizon. I remember hearing a fellow from the BOM who said there was little correlation to conditions at night to the day.
Moreover, sometimes this is annoyingly true. I cannot count the times when we have had a brilliant blue sky day, being clear from horizon to horizon. After dusk becomes either covered with high cloud or becomes overcast all night, only to dramatically clear after the sun has risen. The opposite is also sometimes true.
An example is for Canberra, whose average number of clear days according the BOM site in the last 80 years was averaging 100.0 days, and yet Bart Bok says in his paper says they had the average of 196 nights in 1959 where the 74-inch at Mt Stromlo was operable - almost double the BOM's data. (if the data range is reduced to between 1941 and 1970, roughly in the time frame of Bok's paper this was a slightly worse 98.2 days.) While these figures aren't probably truly statistically equivalent for the site, differences of a factor of about two is certainly significant.
In all, I think we have to be very careful when adjudging dark sky sites, and these should be really be tested visually as much as possible. I think this is the reason site testing is so important.

Note: I know of one astronomical group in Australia who purchased a site, which is located in an unsuitable location with cloudy cover that is higher than the surrounding districts. Often cloud condenses at night with the drop in temperatures over the top of the mountain itself - and stay there all night - only to clear again when the temperature and the morning winds come in. Yet, in most of the districts around it will remain perfectly clear. When it is clear, sometimes the sky is truly brilliant, but some of the time the seeing is dreadful due to turbulence cause by winds having to rise over the higher mountainous regions. Right or wrong, such problems are clearly very complicated, and it takes really years to understand the local climatic conditions. Had they read Isadore Epstein's paper of 1959, they would have not selected a now rather less than ideal site.

This is why it is best to get the feel of the site before building anything - mainly because of the expense. The ASNSWI, for example, did this at Bowen Mt., and ended up with a valuable observing site that is pretty good most of the year.
Site testing has been conducted thought the world in the last 60 years or so. Perhaps the best example is the now defunct observatory site at Black Birch on the mountains of the northern South Island near Blemhelm. Here an observatory was constructed, which was site test by the A. Bateson and the recently late Roger North, who stayed in nothing better than a wooden shack on the mountain for a year or so. So valuable was the data, that it produced the Black Birch observatory under National NZ Carter Observatory in Wellington. This same information then prompted the US Naval Observatory to set up a transit telescope doing southern star positions in the late-1980's and 90's.

Whilst amateur astronomers perhaps do not need such sophistication, it shows a valuable lesson in understanding local weather conditions - sure using meteorological data is important - but it sure does not beat visual observations.

Unfortunately, most of us do not choose a site based on the conditions at night, because a residence is usually selected because of the geographical position of work, family and lifestyle; and not for ones own hobby. Those who have jobs in the Country, certainly have some advantage finding a suitable deep-sky site that is not too far away - perhaps travelling less than 10 km out of town, City dwellers, like me in Sydney for example, have to travel >80 kms to some deep-sky site where their is no guarantee of a decent sky when they get there.

Finally, as to my selected site in WA, this is placed near Sites 18 and 19, which is Kalgoorlie, and just west of Kalgoorlie. Rawlinna is the main rail line that goes between Adelaide and Perth, and was set up in 1919. The data between these two places is interesting - more so in that the kind of weather experienced between Siding Spring at Coonabarabran and the site I refer too are in some ways remarkably similar. What I should have mentioned is this region is one the edge of the Great Victorian Desert, on the very fringes of possible agricultural production. Any further west from here, passing into South Australia is such a hostile environment, that the maintaining astronomical work would be both expensive and difficult.
(See Australian Deserts on the wiki image at;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Australia_deserts.PNG )
This also wiki image shows the geography of the region I have referred, where the low flat region Nullarbour extends.
As for nearby facilities, as alluded too by Karllson, if a large telescope were ever built here, it has the advantage of the nearby railway line, and transportation of the telescope equipment. Kalgoorlie and Rawlinna both also have airports.
I think in all there are only three regions to choose from, south-east WA, the Flinders Ranges, and mid northern NSW - roughly on a direct line between Perth and Sydney. The regions in between are just unsuitable both climatically and observationally.
As to the earlier comment on gold fields in this region, most are now already underground, with the aluviate fan and ancient delta of the region, being already being mined on the ground for its wealth. I think much of the mining is conducted north and south of Kalgoorlie so light pollution shouldn't be a problem at all.
The bottom line is that it would be more cost affective to move new optical observational facilities to South America high in the Andes. Our Federal politicians, seemingly made by Johnny Howard of course rejected contributing costs to a new large telescope under the ESO in South America.
With the U.N. Year of Astronomy in 2009, this would have been a great opportunity for Australia to shine on the world stage, so our glorious astronomical history becomes slightly more diminished. Pity. :sadeyes:

Cheers to all,
Andrew

Note: Not wanting to stop on a downer (and I don't mean Alexander)... Again.

Happy Australia Day to My Fellow Australians!
May Our Spirit Under the Southern Cross Never Set On Our Shores!!
Aussie, Aussie, Aussie. Oi! Oi!, Oi!

[glenc]

Some BOM Places With Reasonable Clear Daytime Skies, For The Whole Year, In Order Are:

1. East Of Longitude 141 Degrees: Qld, NSW & Vic.
Longreach Qld
Julia Creek Qld (places in bold are in 4 of these lists)
Tibooburra NSW
Croydon Qld
Charleville Qld
Bourke NSW

2. Central (Longitude 129E To 141E) NW of Qld, NT & SA
Cloncurry Qld
Tennant Creek NT
Birdsville Qld
Jervois NT
Boulia Qld
Mount Isa Qld

3. WA (The best 5 places are in WA, followed by Cloncurry)
Port Hedland
Barrow Island north of Onslow
Onslow
Bidyadanga, south of Broome
Mardie, north of Onslow
Mandora, north of Port Headland

The "map" shows the 5 best places in Oz for blue skies.
Local people might be able to do some site testing near the above places.
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/

[glenc]

To create a night time map save this image every night at a certain time.
http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDE00902.loop.shtml
It also shows elevation.

[Karlsson]

Forget anything between Dampier and Port Hedland... blue skies perhaps, yes, but also heavy light pollution from the NW Shelf gas operations centered around Karratha and the iron ore industry across the Pilbara centered around Port Hedland. I say that not just because the map shows it - more than once I have seen it with my own eyes...:eyepop:

[glenc]

For clear skies in Feb in eastern Oz try:
Mildura (best), Condobolin, Tibooburra, Albury, Boort,
Edi Upper, Orange, Broken Hill, Wilcannia & Wentworth (10th).
That is based on the ratio clear days to cloudy days.

[JohnH]

Well it is NOT Sydney...

Forecast for Saturday
Showers, possibly moderate to heavy at times. Chance of thunder. Cloudy. Light winds tending east to northeast in the afternoon.
Precis: Showers.

City: Min: 20 Max: 24 Parramatta: Min: 19 Max: 25Terrey Hills: Min: 19 Max: 23 Penrith: Min: 19 Max: 26Liverpool: Min: 19 Max: 26 Richmond: Min: 19 Max: 26
UV Index: 9 [Very High] UV Alert from 9:20 to 16:50

Sunday Showers. Chance thunderstorms.
City: Min: 21 Max: 25West: Min: 19 Max: 27

Monday Showers. Chance thunderstorms.
City: Min: 21 Max: 26West: Min: 18 Max: 29

Tuesday Showers. Chance thunderstorms.
City: Min: 21 Max: 26West: Min: 19 Max: 28

Wednesday A few showers. Chance thunderstorms.
City: Min: 21 Max: 26West: Min: 19 Max: 28

Thursday Showers. Chance thunderstorms.
City: Min: 21 Max: 25West: Min: 19 Max: 26

Friday A few showers.
City: Min: 18 Max: 23West: Min: 16 Max: 25

[§AB]

^^ Melbourne's forecast is pretty much identical

[glenc]

Elevated land is usually better for astronomical observing.
Here is a map showing elevated land in Australia
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/wallpaper/art/PIA06665-1600x1200.jpg
and NZ
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA06662
Some other places
http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/srtm/dataprod.htm

[abellhunter]

Hi Glenn,

think itz my computer but the 1st link/image only loads 10%........ then stops?

NZ loads....... Very useful thanx again!:thumbsup:

The 3rd link is nice to surf...... went to: http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/srtm/bolivia.html
...........and learned about; "An 8-kilometer (5-mile) wide crater of possible impact origin is shown in this anaglyph view of an isolated part of the Bolivian Amazon ......possibly the Earth's most recent "big" impact event recording collision with a meteor or comet that might have occurred between 11,000 and 30,000 years ago.":eyepop:

___________________________

BTW Glenn, do you know anything about "Yerecoin, Western Australia?":shrug:

While surfing i found Mr. Akira Fujii’s Chiro Observatory at Kent Wallace's site......
[click photo link (Photo #2) to see Ob./House]...

http://www.ccastronomy.org/members_work_wallace_australia.htm

Ever since when, i remember seeing this guys amazing photos in the magazines! i guess somewhere down the line he built himself this observatory down under so he could finish his photo atlas!:D

http://www.davidmalin.com/fujii/fujii_index.html
___________________________________ ___________________________

i am always looking at where the SMART PEOPLE build! hehehehehehe
___________________________________ ___________________________

Aloha, Lance aka "abellhunter"

http://www.anzaobservatory.com
...is Moving to the Southern Hemisphere any comments?

[glenc]

"think itz my computer but the 1st link/image only loads 10%........ then stops?" Try:
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/wallpaper/earth.cfm
or for a 3.5Mb image:
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA06665.jpg

[tbentley]

Lance,
If you're considering Yerecoin you could also look at New Norcia, Mogumber and Wongan Hills as areas to explore. They're all in the northern wheat belt around 150km NE of Perth. I've never been to Yerecoin exactly but have been around the area and I can assure you that light pollution will not be a problem for many years to come. Most of the farmers would tell you that clouds shouldn't be a problem either based on the last couple of years, poor buggers.
Hope this helps a little.
Travis

[Kokatha man]

Hi Lance - wasn't going to add anything to this thread 'cos of all the fellas giving you plenty of two-bob's (20cents) worth; but if only to let you know about places that seem to have missed the radar, South Australia has many fine sites to list.

One of the benefits of SA is that it is the most sparesly populated places (after WA and NT) but doesn't quite suffer from the vast isolation in many of the places in the other 2 areas: great you may say but I'd imagine logistics would have to be a consideration somewhere along the equation.

Here in SA there are many places that have loads of sunshine but more importantly clear black night skies where the stars literally "reach down to touch your face": from real outback environments to areas closer to facilities, but without the population build-ups nearby, as in particularly the Eastern States.

SA (the driest state in the driest continent as they say) has loads of low/negligible populated areas that aren't too remote: the upper Murray region including the Murray Mallee, the Mid and Upper North, Flinders Ranges areas and of course SA's west coast. I speak first-hand from long association with "country" in these places.

Enough from me, nukkan ya, Kokatha man.

[glenc]

If you want to live in Eastern Australia the ideal is to have two houses one in NW Victoria/Western NSW and one in North Queensland. The first (Mildura or Condobolin or Tibooburra ) will give clear skies from December to March and the second (Croydon or Julia Creek or Georgetown) from April to November. If you want altitude too try the Gregory Ranges in N Qld, the only problem is the dirt road.

[glenc]

This relief map is handy for finding elevated observing sites.
http://www.maps-for-free.com/?val=-19.478889,144.181389,7,landmark