Voting online

[timelord]

Gooday to all, can anyone tell me why in this day and age I have to waste my time travelling and standing in a que to vote?
I can lodge a tax return, do my banking spend money on goods ordered from the far side of the earth all from the comfort of my home in front of my computer but can't vote online! Why not?
Al.:mad2:

[Lee]

I was thinking exactly the same thing today, as I tried to fold up the huge senate ballot to squeeze it in the box.... it is ridiculous that we haven't moved to an electronic system yet.....

[rogerg]

As a software developer there's a large part of me that thinks it should be done electronically. But I still have a gut feeling that it's too early, too much risk, too easily hacked. We're not talking about $50,000 being stolen in a bank transfer when hacked, we're talking about the government of a country. The risk is too great.

[rat156]

All I can say is that whoever you voted for, campaign your new member for less light pollution. Every streetlight is 40W every night, equals a bit of CO2, turn them off!!

Cheers
Stuart

[Lee]

I rocked up - showed no ID, and put some numbers on a piece of paper, which was then folded crunched up into a cardboard box, supervised by some old ladies from the school's P&C.... I'm glad the banks use better security than that!

[rogerg]

But - that's one, or maybe 5 thousand votes the old lady could steal/alter, as compared to a hacker who could substitute 500,000 with the click of a button.

It would be interesting to know what measures they have in place to prevent a car full of ballot papers going missing.

Quite a different scenario to your bank transaction I believe.

:shrug:

[kljucd1]

Hi,

Have a look at all the complaints about the computer based voting in the US. I believe you still have to go there to do it and still people are making all sorts of claims about rigging.

It would be a lot of money spent on a system that no one would really trust.

Daniel...

[acropolite]

I agree with Daniel, there is ample evidence of tampering with election results in the US system.

As for ballot papers going missing, all papers are accounted for, scrutineers, of all political persuasions, observe the initial count, which is done by the same people who mark your name off the roll, then cross checked by the electoral office, electoral rolls are also cross checked to ensure no one has voted more than once.

All ballot papers are signed by the electoral clerks before being handed out and the numbers tallied at the count. I worked on the polling booths for many years, I can't recall there ever being more than a couple of votes (in tens of thousands) not accounted for, often the missing papers were found in the garbage where disgruntled voters had thrown them.

Usually the numbers of papers tallied exactly.

This article (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen), in Rolling Stone magazine, on the role of electronic voting in the 2004 US election, is well worth reading.

[Astro78]

Personally found it suss having to use a pencil :) And the soft ones that rub out really easily :)

:thumbsup:

[mick pinner]

l still find it a joke that voting, sorry turning up to have your name marked of the roll is compulsary.

[Glenhuon]

Its a pity that so many people think their time is so valuable that they can't spare a 1/2 hour every 3 or 4 years to exercise a right that was hard fought for over so many years, one that many people in the world don't have. :rolleyes:

As previously stated, forget electronic voting, too easy to tamper with (ever noticed how quickly hacks appear for new software). I'd much rather have a group of human eyes checking that things are fair and above board than rely on a computer to elect my government.

Bill

[mick pinner]

the right to vote was hard fought, not the compulsary vote.
it's not about time, a vote has to be earned not just expected.

[Glenhuon]

And how do you earn it, by being a land owner as was the case in the past (effectively disenfranchising all those who were not). Compulsory voting is OK in my book, forces the lazy and apathetic to get of their bums and take part in the community at least once in a while. If folks can't be bothered then pay the fine, its only a few bucks a year. We live in one of the best countries in the world (probably THE best), have lots of rights and priveledges, but with this comes responsibilities and the most important is to vote on who should govern for the next term. If people took these responsibilities as they should, compulsion would not be neccessary, but human nature being what it is, its the best way of ensuring that enough cast a vote for a reasonably fair outcome. Or would you prefer that the government is elected by the votes of 25% of the population as happens elsewhere.

[cahullian]

When you sign up for the electoral role you have an agreement to turn up and vote. If you don't want to vote don't sign up. At least we all have a say not like other nations where lass than 59% of the population vote, either due to ingorance or intimidation.

Gazz (born in ireland but never voted, Australian citizen and always votes).

[Glenhuon]

A young lady of the household just pointed out that some who won't stand in line to vote will stand in a queue at Maccas for a burger for the same time. :lol:

Bill
Born in Scotland, voted there, and votes in Australia.

[Zuts]

It's sad isn't it, always me me me me, my time is precious...........

[netwolf]

All systems are susceptible to fraud. No such thing as a absolutely safe system.

An alarm goes off in a house and no one reports it because they think someone else will do it.
The power cuts out and no one reports it because some one else will.
An election is held and no one votes because some one else will.
It is wise to limit freedom with our conscious duty and responsibility to each other. If you feel strongly that the options are no good then stand up for election and make yourself herd. If you dont win at least you duty is done and consious is at peace.
"death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain"

Regards
Fahim

[ngcles]

Hi Mick & All,

Very much agree with this comment by Mick. It is not compulsory to vote -- it is only compulsory to turn up and have your name ticked off the list. What you do with the ballot papers after your name is ticked off is irrelevant.

One little growing scam about voting really concerns me -- that is the practice of _all_ the major party candidates writing to voters before the election offering to assist in facilitating a postal vote. Now I know the party in question doesn't actually arrange the vote for you -- they just forward your details and the request to the Electoral Commission and indicate you want a postal vote and the Commission does the rest by sending out the appropriate pack to the voter.

But (and here is the big but) once you reply to the candidate in question and say "yes I need a postal vote, please arrange it for me", that party knows _for certain_ that you are not going to turn up in person at a booth to vote.

They can then (as they know your name and address) without fear of being caught-out, turn up anywhere in the electorate and vote for all the people who requested postal votes again and again and ... This is not to indict either of the big parties -- they both write letters to voters offering to arrange postal votes and it ought to be stopped.

Sure, if they want to write and advise you how to get a postal vote _from the Commission_ - fine. But the above is not kosher for mine -- it stinketh.

If we are going to have compulsory voting, I.D when your name is ticked off the roll should be compulsory too. One vote per identity - not one vote for any Tom, Dick or Harry who turns up and says "I'm John Smith, and I'm here to vote".


Best,

Les D
Contributing Editor
AS&T

[cahullian]

Gee that's abit harsh Les. If you don't like the result move to America where 50% don't even vote he he he he

Gazz

[netwolf]

Les, I would assume that once you applied for a postal vote then the electoral commission would not list you on the role sent to the booths. If that is your concern and I have heard this b4 on a talk back radio station from a caller, perhaps you should right and ask the EC about it.

[ngcles]

Hi Fahim & All,

No, not so far as I understand. The Electoral Commission will of course ultimately discover from the combined list that your name has been ticked off more than once. When that happens they write to you enquiring why you voted more than once.

The voter replies "No I didn't -- it wasn't me". They can't establish who voted the second time or who they voted for and that is the end of it.

Additionally, thousands of dead people vote at every election (for all different parties) too along with the 2x postal voters.

Former Senator Graeme Richardson was fond of saying to the faithful "Vote early, vote often!". But they _all_ do it -- I'm certain.

Don't like the result -- who said I don't like the result? I just think there are too many holes in the electoral system (the two party preferred system) that also makes it well-nigh impossible to be elected unless you are either an endorsed Labour or endorsed Coalition candidate.

Remember from yesterday -- you _must_ number _every_ square on the ballot paper. So ultimately you have to either vote for "******* A" or "******* B". You can't vote for someone else and if they don't get in your vote is extinguished. If you fail to fill in every square, your vote is informal and not counted. You must, in the end, vote either Labor or Coalition. The two party preferred system ensures that there can only be two major parties.

And the two major parties are pretty happy about that and not in any hurry to change it -- it is a self-perpetuating system.

Best,

Les D.

[Ric]

In answer to the original question.

I actually enjoy going to vote :thumbsup:, seeing democracy in action always reminds me of how lucky we are to be able to actually go and vote without being shot at or blown up.

Voting online would just take away the fun in having a say how our country is to be governed.

Cheers :)

[Lee]

Even if not online - why a paper ballot? Why not touchscreens, all voting data from each voting station could go on a USB drive, I don't think the networks would like it - at 6.15 the counting would be over!

[Ric]

That would take the fun out of it Lee.

I was finding it very amusing last night to see Kerry O'Brien getting annoyed with the cheering crowd and accusing other networks of not taking it seriously. :lol:

What would happen to all those election bbq's as well, they would have to become election snacks. :rofl:

Cheers

[mick pinner]

Glenhuon, my point was not that l have earned the right to vote it was that a particular party through their actions or policies has earned my vote.
why should l have to cast a vote for anyone if l do not agree with their policies?
Not voting also sends a message that parties have lost the faith of the people.
l'm not saying that l don't vote or would not vote even if it were not compulsary, making it manditory does not ensure a vote it only makes people turn up and have their name struck of.

[xstream]

I'm lead to believe that it is being trialled in this election. By all accounts our overseas serving forces are using this method to vote.
If it's found to be a success it may be introduced into future elections.

[ving]

meh! voting isnt a hassle at all. we were fighting for out place in que with pat farmer :P

[xelasnave]

Well I must say at Tabualm it was a wonderful social event and as such I would not like to see voting on line:)..

It was at the school with a sausage sizzle and a cake stall.:thumbsup:....

I got to chat with all the hand out folk and it was great to hear their views on everything and how they each percieved the political world.:):thumbsup:..

there were some small debates:D but all were trying to suggest how to keep our wonderful country great and irrespective of anyone being right or wrong it was wonderful to see the pride Australians have in our country and thinking of what is best for its future:thumbsup:.

And frankley if I could have voted on line... well I would have voted on line... I guess... and missed a really great day... well not a full day but I was happily occupied for 5 hours or more..

alex:):):)

[CoombellKid]

Interesting the comments on electronic voting, and the fear whether
warranted or not about results, hacking, rigging...etc...etc... but it's
these governments that have no problem allowing banks with online
banking facsilities to move billions or your dollars. I think they could
design an online voting system that was secure.

Anyways as we seen last night, the old paper and pencil works a treat!!! : )

regards,CS

[Glenhuon]

Well Mick, as was pointed out before, just turn up and have your name ticked off. Then chuck the papers in the bin, you have in effect abstained. At least you have given a bit of your time to do that, rather than sitting at home and doing nothing. But I can't see the problem, there must be some section of the political spectrum that matches your thoughts. If you don't cast your vote in that direction, they are never going to be anything else than also rans. Thre is no such thing as a wasted vote.

[nightsky]

G'Day,
For what's it's worth I never ever miss voting in any election,local,state,federal since my arrival in Australia. I personally believe that it's a privilege that all citizens of this "Great" country can have a vote,and knowing that your vote will count whether the party you voted for gets in or not.Not so much so now days,but years ago in Nth Ireland (home of my birth and a second class citizen) Republican or Nationalist votes never counted,why,because a political party that was in power for over 50 years useing the "Gerrymandering" system and wanted to rule for another 50 years using the same system.Be thankfull for what you have here.For theses people who take the time to go and get there name crossed out,and then throw the ballet paper away,is such a shame and a waste.but that's there choice.Always remember though that your vote does COUNT.As far as security goes it's as safe as can be.To many "Bugs" doing it online :) the present system has served us well. The only thing I would like changed is have the lower house Proportional representation that way all the citizens would be represented. I never did like "first pass the post"
Cheers
Arthur

[ving]

rip rip woodchip turn it into paper...

[space oddity]

I have my doubts about online voting. The temptation to hack would be to great, the potential damage extreme. I have worked in the electoral system for many years as both polling official and in charge of polling booths and have never found any hint of fraud or tampering. There are usually a few scrutineers for candidates present, usually there to get the early results as they are phoned to the electoral office, and from there to the tally room. The big fraud with this last election was boundary tampering in the Wentworth electorate- some of Sydney(very Labor) was put into Wentworth. Now Wentworth has the biggest number of voters in NSW and Sydney less than average, either gross incompetence or rather funny business. If you do not like the queues do a pre-poll vote, I have never had to wait. One election, we gave the large senate paper the nickname "French flag" aka tricoleur aka "tree killer" VOTE 1 CLEAR SKIES

[fringe_dweller]

As gazz and others already alluded too, - many others would eventually, equally find it 'a joke' if less than 60-50% of eligable pop. turned out and voted in a voluntary system. that is also absurd when using the word 'democracy', but the consequences are probably far worse and widereaching? we would have a president bush one day?
I think it has been common wisdom for many years, that non-compulsory voting often favours the right or conservative side of politics, as they are apparently more passionate and rabid on the whole, have more at stake? so more likely to vote. so I guess seeing as we are a country obsessed, and quite rightly, with fairness and the concept of the 'fair go' and is basically all we have in the way of a bill of rights it would seem, e.g the vibe of the fair go lol
it kinda makes sense that we also have compulsory voting, as it is fair to the whole spectrum of politics, not just one slice of it.
But i am reading that that dynamic may of changed, and is starting to favour the left, look at the UK or NZ for example, and the green voters/lefties are more passionate in numbers these days?
so its funny, i didnt hear the coalition make much of that over the last 11.5 years, as serious issue? i did hear some independent opinions like that from individuals, but not as a party policy per se, and you're not likely to hear it from labor either i would imagine. status quo anyone? lol

here's a c&p of for and against reasons from here

http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/compulsoryvote.htm

Arguments used in favor of compulsory voting:

*Voting is a civic duty comparable to other duties citizens perform (e.g. taxation, compulsory education, or jury duty).

*Parliament reflects more accurately the "will of the electorate."

*Governments must consider the total electorate in policy formulation and management.

*Candidates can concentrate their campaigning energies on issues rather than encouraging voters to attend the poll.

*The voter isn't actually compelled to vote for anyone because voting is by secret ballot.

Arguments used against compulsory voting:

*It is undemocratic to force people to vote - an infringement of liberty.

*The "ignorant" and those with little interest in politics are forced to the polls.

*It may increase the number of "donkey votes" (bad votes that don't get counted).

*It may increase the number of informal votes (ballot papers which are not marked according to the rules for voting).

*It increases the number of safe, single-member electorates - political parties then concentrate on the more marginal electorates.

*Resources must be allocated to determine whether those who failed to vote have "valid and sufficient" reasons.

overall i find it fascinating why this periodically becomes such a burning hot issue, it seems so trivial, up against some of the other possible issues out there! like fundies putting unauthorised and virtually anonymous blanket leafletters/junkmail suggesting all sorts of unsubstantiated and libelous stuff the night before an election, when that sort of stuff is supposed to have long stopped, containing stuff like so and so candidate is going to eat your babies,with depicted fetus about to be consumed or is secretly a terrorist supporter ect. ect.



Compulsory voting has been around for about 80 years in oz, as JH would of said, I would think that that is considered 'bedded in' :P also that means that at the time of the second world war it was well in place, so technically we did fight for it as it stands now? also queensland had it at time of great war, so again technically, we may well 'have fought for it'

what does a candidate or party have to do to qualify to be honoured with your vote? please specify :)

[fringe_dweller]

i'm not getting political here - I wouldnt dare!! :)

but i personally think our system is ticketyboo - specially now :)
we have just witnessed a virtual, albeit younger, clone of the PM win with his party an election in a landslide pretty much on the basis of...

WE PROMISE TO BE EXACTLY LIKE THE PREVIOUS PARTY (except in a few, relatively speaking, small differences) IN JUST ABOUT EVERY WAY!
what a deal! i think aussies are smart operators to get that iron clad deal LOL, at least for this entire term. cracks me up thinking about it! well done

:lol: :lol:

[CoombellKid]

That's a very Liberal thing to say, you sure there isn't a bit of nose out of
joint going on with you? :lol:

regards,CS

[fringe_dweller]

:rofl: i was trying to be diplomatically nuetral, not crowing or gloating, just an observation, altho i personally think the previous lot specialised in that area ;) :lol:
its still true tho, well this is the era of 'whatever it takes' politics i guess.
hey i just partied like it was kev 07 for consecutive days :party: :party:
winners are grinners :D

[fringe_dweller]

re electronic voting, love the google ads at right - they are spooky? :scared: http://www.qwizdom.co.uk/?gclid=CJWkk6Cb_I8CFQcugwod_yxrLg :lol:

[CoombellKid]

:lol: