8P / Tuttle

[Outbackmanyep]

Another comet should reach naked eye brightness is 8P/ Tuttle, which will race past us in late december this year......... 0.255 AU away at closest approach to Earth!

Check Astronomy 2007 for ephemeris or this link:
http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/iau/Ephemerides/Comets/0008P.html


Cheers!

:thumbsup:

[iceman]

Someone convert that to direction and altitude for me? :)

[Lee]

Mike - from Starry Night Pro
27 Dec - 12 degrees due north, rising about 2 deg per day to 52 deg due north on 6 Jan (these times for about 8pm AEDST)
Seems to reach highest altitude of 80 odd degrees after this....

[iceman]

Excellent! Something we can see, maybe :) What magnitude is it?

[Lee]

SNP gives it magnitudes 5-6 or so.....

[NQLD_Newby]

Hey Lee can you check something for me please, since you have SNP. I updated the orbital info for C/2007 F1 Leonos and 8P/Tuttle in my software. If I have done this correctly these two comets should cross each others visual path and come within 1 deg of each other on 29-05-08 and stay that way each night until 2-06-08. I am not sure that I have updated it all correctly and I cannot work out how to make the magnitudes correct any more. However if I am correct and they are both at visable mags then they will both fit into the FOV of most low power EP's. Now that would be something to see, two comets in one FOV.

Edit: I just found the RA & Dec co-ordinates for them and their mag listings for the above dates, on a website. It would appear that I am correct in the positioning of them, but unfortunately Tuttle will be mag 14 and Leonos will be mag 16 at this time :sadeyes:. Oh well maybe someone with a huge scope will get some beneift from this post.

[Lee]

Will do, will need to wait until after work though.... should have it up by 6-6.30 unless someone beats me to it.....

[NQLD_Newby]

Oh yeah thats right work. Thats the only problem with this site, your lunch hour turns into your lunch three hours without you realising it.

Thanks Lee for checking that info for me, I will check back later tonight, or maybe during my lunch three hours tommorrow :rofl:

[Lee]

Rex - you really know boats!
These are finder charts for 30 May 2008
Note Crux in bottom left of image.

[Lee]

More charts for days after..... 31 May, 1 Jun and 4 Jun 08

[NQLD_Newby]

Thanks Lee. Great stuff, now I know how to update orbital info. Pitty they will be so faint. Maybe Santa will bring me a scope big enough to see them :P. Thanks again for your help Lee. Incidentally I found this out by accident. After updating the details of one of them I tracked it forward to see how long it would be visable for and noticed it crossed paths with the other one. Was very exciting, until I found out they would be too faint. Maybe they will flair up to naked eye like 17p/holmes. we can only hope .

[Outbackmanyep]

Heres a link about 8P/ Tuttle

http://cometography.com/pcomets/008p.html

Interesting to note that it's 0.25 AU pass this time around will actually be the closest it's ever been since its discovery in 1790!

[Outbackmanyep]

Just an update and a reminder about 8P/ Tuttle......

Received a report that its currently 9.5 mag and brightening steadily.
Its gonna be a short trip past us come Dec 29th, so keep and eye and an ear out!
Outbursts are always possible with comets!

:cheers:

[Outbackmanyep]

Reports coming in from the Northern Hemisphere, 8P is currently mag 7.5 and coming on well, not visible here yet, the next week and a half will be worth the wait....(unless these clouds have other ideas)

Cheers Guys!

[glenc]

The attached map is from SkyMapPro starting on 28/12 at 10pm DST.
North is at lower right.Tuthiil will go near M33, M74, N676, N908 and N1097.
It will be at its brightest (approx mag 5.7) on 6/1.

[iceman]

Thanks Glen, with any luck we'll have some clear skies in the new year.

[Outbackmanyep]

Brightening trend continues, reports of m1 = 6.9

Can't wait to see this!

[fringe_dweller]

more than one way to watch 8P!

hot off the press - see what i mean about cutting it fine with announcements lol
good for the northerners :) yet again *sigh* i guess it means their the ones to get hit first ;)

'URSIDS 2007

We expect a significant shower on December 22, with a peak
around 20 - 22.2 UT and a full-width at half peak intensity of
about 2 - 8.5 hours (most likely around 5 hrs).

It would be great if this prediction could be confirmed. The
Moon is not favorable, but we hope that this does not discourage
visual, video, and photographic observers. The outburst is best
seen from Asia or Europe and by radio forward meteor scatter observations.

Below is the CBET announcement with some of the same information.

Peter Jenniskens

(pjenniskens@seti.org)

---
Electronic Telegram No. 1159
Central Bureau for Astronomical Telegrams
INTERNATIONAL ASTRONOMICAL UNION
M.S. 18, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge, MA 02138, U.S.A.
IAUSUBS@CFA.HARVARD.EDU or FAX 617-495-7231 (subscriptions)
CBAT@CFA.HARVARD.EDU (science)
URL http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/iau/cbat.html


'URSID METEORS 2007
P. Jenniskens, SETI Institute, writes that he and his colleagues E.
Lyytinen, M. Nissinen, I. Yrjola, and J. Vaubaillon (Jennniskens et al.
2007, JIMO 35, Dec. issue, in press) predict an outburst of Ursid meteors
associated with the imminent return of comet 8P/Tuttle to perihelion. The
peak of the outburst is predicted at 20-22.2 hr UT on Dec. 22 (most likely
21h.4-22h.2), when the shower rate (ZHR) will be about 40-80 meteors/hr, or
4-8 times the normal Ursid activity. The outburst may last as short as FWHM
= 2 hr if dominated by dust trails that were ejected during AD 700-900, or
as long as FWHM = 8.5 hr if older dust trails are involved. Meteors should
radiate from a geocentric radiant of R.A. = 218.3 deg, Decl. = +75.5 deg
(equinox 2000.0), with velocities of V_g = 33.52 km/s. These results were
derived by calculating the orbital evolution of meteoroids ejected by
comet 8P in the period AD 300-1400; it was found that encounters with
Jupiter at the ascending node of the comet orbit shortly after ejection
move the meteoroids in mean-motion resonances that evolve the dust into
earth-crossing orbits, creating a stream or filament that is elongated
perpendicular to the earth's path.


NOTE: These 'Central Bureau Electronic Telegrams' are sometimes
superseded by text appearing later in the printed IAU Circulars.

(C) Copyright 2007 CBAT
2007 December 10 (CBET 1159) Daniel W. E. Green'

[Outbackmanyep]

Hey Kearn!
Thanks for the info, wish the clouds would go away!
Hope you get a chance to photograph this piggybacked or Prime focus, get out there and start snapping some fillum!
I'll be in Lightning Ridge doing other things until the 2nd Jan, hopefully i can get clear skies and take some tripod shots! Im gonna take my Minolta too cos i have the 300mm lens with that!

Cheers!

[Alchemy]

pulled of a britsh website......Comet 8P/Tuttle is brightening rapidly and is now visible in binoculars, although it is quite diffuse and hence difficult to see in the bright moonlight. It is very much like a miniature version of 17P/. It may reach naked eye brightness by the end of December. On December 23 it passes close to NGC281 and on December 30 close to M33....................

finally one that can be seen from melbourne... hope it performs

[Rob_K]

According to SN, 8P/Tuttle has breached my horizon at 37 degrees S as of last night, but because of the hills (& waning moon!) I'll have to wait a few nights before it is visible. Roll on!

[erick]

Impatient! :rundog:

Must be almost Tuttle Time???

[Rob_K]

Tut,tut Erick! :P Should be about 8-9 degrees here by the time it's dark tonight. Gotta find some high ground - sick of living at the bottom of a deep hole...:scared2:

Cheers -

[tornado33]

Tuttle will go past M33 quite close, a nice observing opportunity, ive scrapped my NYE plans to take pics of it, see
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=283233#post283233

Its brightening and rapidly moving south :)
Scott

[Bobj]

Had a squiz at it about 8.30 last night, M33 and Tuttle in the same view on the finderscpope. Focussed on M33 and a satellite tracked across M33.
Nudged the dob to Tuttle, (diffuse) and another satellite went across.
Blow me down! Two satellites across 2 objects of interest. Moved on to M31 and yes, another satellite.:eyepop:

[IceAgeComing]

i can't seem to find it here in NZ, only using binoculars though. Is it bright enough yet? Looking at heavens above, its quite low in the sky, but not too low.. can't seem to find triangulum to lead me to it :(

[astroron]

If you can see Comets Tuttle and Holmes naked eye you are seeing a piece of astronomical history:)
Noted comet observer and historian John Bortle posted this reply on another website. --- In amastro@yahoogroups.com, "timokarhula" <timo.karhula@...> wrote:
>
> By the way, has it ever before occurred in the history that two short-
> period comets have been visible without optical aid simultaneously?
> Maybe John Bortle knows? :-)
>
> /Timo Karhula
>

While I can not speak with absolute assurance (i.e. I haven't actually
checked all my reference works to see decisively), the odds of two
periodic comets being visible to the unaided eye simultaneously is
vanishingly small.

Very few periodic comets today can even occasionally (and then only
very briefly) attain naked visibility. To have two do so, even in a
single year, would be a most unusual event.

That P/Tuttle and P/Holmes can currently be viewed with the unaided eye
together in the same field of vision is, without any question whatever,
a totally unique instance in the cometary annals.

JBortle

So enjoy the experiance as this does not happen very ofton:)
Ron

[glenc]

Thanks Ron, all we need is some clear skies!
IceAgeComing there is a map at #15 below.

[Outbackmanyep]

Happy New Year Everyone!

Heres a pic i took Yesterday of 8P/ Tuttle with the 8" SCT and Canon 400D @ f/10

:thumbsup:

Cheers!

It was really windy and cold here last night, i did the best i could under the conditions!

[Outbackmanyep]

G'day there, If you can find M33 in Triangulum with Binoculars then look towards the south, you'll come across it.
Hope that helps!

:thumbsup:

[Outbackmanyep]

This is just a crudely marked image i took from Lighting Ridge on the 30th Dec, 2007 showing 2 comets and 2 galaxies!

cheers! :thumbsup:

[fringe_dweller]

top shots Chris :)

tried the double ne simultaneous comets trick last evening (tue 2nd) from darkish northern beach - with 'two Ps or not two P's' - damned if we could claim the title, Tut tuttle wouldnt co-operate ;( woulda been my third set of double simultaneous ne comets - oh well, coulda claimed it, but it was right next to small mag 5.2 star 107 piscium which confused the issue, a half-arsed defocused binocs mag estimate gave me around mag 6.5 or less mebbe closer to 7 - but nearly 26d elevation and tightish condensed 10' ish ball I thought we had a chance?
didnt get a pic, as spirited ssw wind blew salty sand? in our eyes blinding us many times if we faced it, wasnt game to get any more gear out - so whos gonna supply souvinir pics for my notes? :D

still nice session :)

did you get 8P ne chris?

[Outbackmanyep]

Hey Kearn!
Sounds like you had a battle on your hands there!!
8P is easy to find in binoculars in dark skies, i just find M33 in Triangulum and then scan above it, probably 3 FOV's above M33, you should stumble across it!
17P Holmes is still naked eye from dark skies!
8P, i haven't been able to see it "naked eye" in dark skies as yet, i'll keep looking though!

I haven't done any mag estimates at all on this comet, i have been slack!
I just got back from a hard trip to Lightning Ridge, i found enough energy to photograph it but not to take the dope off it.
You see, we got bogged up at the ridge and took us 9 hours to get the thing out of the slop, hands are blistered and back is aching and bruises up my sides, not to mention the 3 days afterwards getting home and cleaning the Landcruiser.
VB goes down like water up there! Bloody good trip though, didnt have enough room to sling a telescope, and my riflescope is only a 6x42mm Leupold, so no go on the mag estimates, i need bigger bino's, my 7x50's did ok but estimating coma dia with them is a task i haven't mastered yet!

Cheers!

[fringe_dweller]

Hi Chris, I found 8P in binocs very easily mate, and was surprised how big the coma was actually, but then it was only about .25 au away!! what I meant was, did you see 8P with the naked eye out there in darksville dude?
and that trip sounded like a good one! good old fashioned aussie road trip there! we got hopelessly bogged in a small sedan on a comet mission once, and ended having to walk nearly 30k for help - ouch!
comet coma size estimating is dead easy mate, you just find a pair of stars that are a similar or equal distance apart as to the same size apparent size of coma, or a simple multiple of coma dia/ equal distance ie 2 or 3 times equidistant in binocs. mark on simple drawing of fov in binocs or on specially prepared print out star chart from proggy, and when you get home, fire up planetarium proggy and measure distance of two identified stars, (in snp with angular seperation tool) and deduce away! too easy these days ;) lot easier than overlaying grids on your binocs like they used to do lol

[Outbackmanyep]

Thats a good idea! I remember doing that but only with star clusters and not stars themselves, 8P isn't naked eye from what i have seen, i tried looking for it knowing where it was, but no go!

As for drawing the comet i think this one is a good exercise for people interested in how comets behave, sketching the field and then again half an hour later should show a definite visual movement against the star field!
I did see the southern cross with my bins and i could fit it all in the FOV, looking at 17P/ Holmes (which is still naked eye) it was about 1/2 the FOV.
Mag estimates i'm still getting quite well.
One thing i did try was timing the coma crossing the edge of field, and then converting that to secs. Then use the timing to find out the approx dia. Sky movement is 15"/sec. EASY! But i didnt have my tripod coupler for the bins and doing it by hand was most difficult.
I'll give it a better go when i set the scope up when this cloud clears here!

Cheers, thanks for the info!

[fringe_dweller]

thanks, i was wondering whether any more-northerly aussies could see it ne - seeing some far northerners are claiming they can as you know



mag estimates are the hardest part of the picture surely?, what with finding suitable nuetral or blue/green enough star(s) ( BV < +0.5, ideally) for comparison, and at the same or similar altitude and in same fov, and its the one that matters the most i guess too

with that timing method, at different binoc/telescopic magnifications arent you going to get different apparent speeds of fov, and then you factor that in as well? just curious, brains not engaged today possibly lol

comets are totall entertainment, love a moving transient object :thumbsup:

[Outbackmanyep]

Well the Earth turns at a relatively constant speed @ approx. 15"/sec.....so no matter what the magnification the sky turns at the same rate, at different magnifications you still have the same angular diameter, so i can't see how that would affect the timings. The only thing that would be different is the brightness, thats why you should always take your mag estimates using In/OUT method with smallest aperture possible or a moderate sized aperture at lowest possible power.

What you do is time the beginning of the coma leaving the FOV and then stop when you think it leaves the FOV. I usually do about 8 or so timings, then average them out.....I'd really need a low power astrometric eyepiece suited for the telescope, but i have tried this method and although its not precise it's quite on the money, regardless of the Dec.

Does that sound right??
I may have missed something but i'm quite convinced that the sky rotation speeds are the same.

According to David H Levy's book "Guide to Observing and Discovering Comets" you can use this drift timing to calculate the coma diameter in space using a formula supplied in his book, he states that the drift method loses accuracy north or south of 70 degrees Declination (ie: +70 to +90, and -70 to -90)

:thumbsup:

[fringe_dweller]

ahh gotchya OBM - I'm not one to question D Levy's methods lol, i think we have had this conversation before a year or so ago mebbe? :confuse3: yeh that makes sense now - seems like a complicated way to measure coma's tho. seeing that no-one would care too much about super fine accuracy in that area, as digital images cover that side well these days, but m1 estimation is still the last bastion of the eyeballer, one last little tiny corner of england as they say, as much as it annoys digital fans, i cant see it changing, as they are compared to old comet observations, and has to be relative to them still :cool2:

[Outbackmanyep]

It takes practice and more practice to master the art of visual mag estimation, i know a good way of learning it is to go Variable Star observing, which not only gives the amateur practice at determining magnitudes, but also how to plot a light curve, and contribute to astronomical science in a big way! It's one of my new years resolutions to try Variable star observing and plot light curves.
The methods used in estimating variable star magnitudes are the same as those used for comets.
The problem with Comet Holmes is apparent, due to its huge angular size, when using binoculars you cant defocus a star enough to get the right magnitude estimation, as you noticed in comets-ml, Maik Meyer had to buy a set of 1940's opera glasses as it was the only low power instrument he could find that could defocus a star enough to gauge the Comets brightness. 8P is a good comet though, as it behaves itself enough to be able to get accurate mag estimates.
Im still getting used to m1 estimates, but i think if i try Variable Star observing it will refine my skills!

Cheers!

[fringe_dweller]

lol I am very familiar with this subject dude, I have done a number of albiet sporadic estimates going back years, that have always matched well with ones from old timers, you need a russian dolls/nest of different size binocs to do this stuff properly, as you say, as coma sizes vary, with the defocusing. the dimmer comets are easy, as plenty of suitable comparison stars, which don't include variables btw ;)

[Outbackmanyep]

AAAAAh ok, how many years you been comet-ing??
I have been right into it for 3 going on 4 years now! I have always had an interest but living in western sydney didn't give me much chance of dark skies, until i moved to sunny ol' Walcha.....

I hope others reading this thread are getting enough info out of you and me, fringe-dweller!
You let me know when you come to NSW won't you!

[fringe_dweller]

when i joined ml it was only 6 months or so old, and about 100 - 200 ppl as members :) thats how long ago I guess,
i used to very occasionaly submit obs to comet-obs and the old defunt? charles morris's site, and ml even more occasionaly - I learned how to do it from jbortle/morris/BAA/ICQ stuff off the net and reading hundreds of ml members posts, bortle suggests the coma estimate method i use as well i think, but I used it before i read that.
i don't remember seeing your obs posted anywhere chris?
i also have an old long neglected website kinda dedicated to southern comets we saw years ago

did you follow WM1? A2? thats how far back the serious uninterupted stretch of bright comet observing/following goes for me :) WM1 at outburst telescopic view is one of the most amazing things i have ever seen, still is

[Outbackmanyep]

I send all my observations to Con Stoitsis at ASV Comet Section, Con posts his obs on comets-ml, where it goes from Con i have no idea, i assume he passes it on to Seichii Yoshida who does fantastic monitoring of all known comets in Japan, establishing light curves etc.
I should ask Con where the Obs go....lol

Sounds like you been around a long while observing comets, i never saw WM1. I updated a list of comets i have observed, which i enter into my word document, so far im up to 26.......i know Alan Hale is on the downhill run to 500 comets, will i ever get 500? I may need a 16" scope to help me! lol
I hope you have made a list, it would be interesting to see how many you've seen!

Cheers!:thumbsup:

[fringe_dweller]

13 or 14? NE comets, (thats the only list that really matters to me :D) for me Chris :thumbsup: which includes Hyakutake from a dark site a few times at its best in '96

i thought you knew i was into comets :shrug: lol oh well i give up, only kidding mate

[fringe_dweller]

Wooot! finally, success! thanks to a heads-up from Michael M. on ml, I went out to a dark location to catch another 'two naked eye comet's, in the same sky, at the same time', my 3rd pair :D , and another ne comet for list lol!

as OBM well knows, before q4 and t7 in 2004, this hadnt been done for a very long time. I guess lack of internet, and no comets are missed now, and co-ordinated stuff like that, and the lack of, back then prevented such a feat being experienced more regularly - not that these were speccy comets, but that doesnt matter.
8P/Tuttle was pretty easy to see with the naked eye once you had located it was with binocs first time round. consistently a very small glow with an obvious cc, certainly in the low 6's magnitude wise.

coupla cruddy souvenir snaps i quickly took of occassion here

18-55 kit lens at f3.5 1600 iso 30 sec singles

one has both comets in fov marked by arrows, the other is just a shot of 17P on its own

[erick]

OK, I'm back from travels and I can go looking for it.

Is it still on this path:-

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=36067&d=1198011090

Thanks all :)

[Outbackmanyep]

Sure is Erick!

Only trouble will be that you may find it a little difficult to spot it in moonlight! Bloody moon always ruins a good party!

Good luck! :cheers:

[erick]

Thanks Outbackie

Looks like if I wait until around midnight tonight the Moon will have set and my friend Tuttle should still be at 45 deg elevation. Maybe I'll give it a go? It should be losing magnitude each day now, I believe?

Eric :thumbsup:

[Outbackmanyep]

Its gradually fading, my last Obs to ASV was m1= 5.8! Still well within Binocular range and excellent photo op!

Good luck! Hope the clouds don't spoil your fun!
Cheers!

[glenc]

Tuttle will be about 5 degrees below NGC1269 on 1/2/08, it will be 2 degrees down to the left of NGC 1549-53 on 15/3 and 1 degree to the left of NGC 1672 on 30/3, all at 9:30 pm DST.

[Outbackmanyep]

Thanks Glen! I hope the late evening high level fog goes away so i can get a widefield crack at it!

Cheers!!!