SKY and SPACE What a Joke!

[centauri]

Hi All

I am just wondering if anyone else is having problems with subscriptions to this magazine.
My other half organised a sub back in August and we got the July/August edition promptly with some DVD's she ordered but since then nothing.

They have recently released the Sept/Oct issue to stores, and it's only 2 weeks til the end of Oct.
We still have not seen our copy yet.
We have both tried emailing them multiple times but they simply do not respond at all.

I know this sounds like a vent on my behalf, and it is, but I believe others have the right know when companies do not fulfill there obligations but just pocket your hard earned cash.:mad2:

Darren

[Miaplacidus]

Ah, memories...

[seeker372011]

I must say I got my copy in time with no problem...

[firstlight]

Hmmm...

To be fair, the Astronomy magazine market in Australia is very tight, however your gripe is a very old one. At the risk of being shot down in flames, the nickname "Lost in Space" has been attributed to this magazine more than once. I want to support an Aussie battler, but too many chances have been squandered by S&S, and great rancor is still felt by many since the demise of "Southern Sky" in the mid 90's.

[h0ughy]

Darren how about trying to call them? if you emailed them it could have got eaten up by the spam email service, a few of mine ended up there. Directly call S&S, the number should be on the web site:whistle:

[erick]

I still haven't located it in newsagents. I've tried a few - I'll keep trying. I've finished reading my subscription Oz S&T twice - so I need more!

[Rodstar]

I wonder what explanation will be given in the editorial this month for the delay in publication.....no doubt it was caught up on the desk of their UK proof-reader....nothing like 100% Aussie made!

[mlcolbert]

Hi everyone!

seems like I've walked into another one of those 'sessions' which permeate all different types of groups. FWIW I rang the guys about the lateness of the mag. they stated that there had been a problem and that I would receive my copy within the week, which I did! So, I have no problem. Also, I have no problem if there are issues of time with mags as I have subs to four at last count ( A S&T, S&S, Astronomy and Astronomy Now) so for me it just spreads my reading a bit more evenly. :)) Otherwise guys, get over it! as the saying goes!:) You have adequate websites, other magazines available, this site, maybe even professional journals at your local university campus. What more do you need? Seriously.

erik, have you tried Technical Book and Magazine in Swanston Street? Or maybe McGills in Elizabeth Street?

[Loupy31]

"Otherwise guys, get over it! as the saying goes!"

I think your comment is a little harsh, If you pay for something and it dose'nt arrive in a reasonable time frame, I think a GOOD explination should be given by the company selling the item, a little concideration for the buyer of a product can go a long way.

Loupy31

[Sausageman]

We have been down this path before, last year I think.
It got very heated, so I am going to pass on this thread.
Just phone them, 02 9369 3344

Mike.

[acropolite]

I agree, just phone them, it's too easy to ignore emails, also, whenever you email an important query, always request a read receipt. If you don't have any luck with the phone call I suggest you contact the ACCC (http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/54217).

[OneOfOne]

I got my Sky & Space on Friday of last week and read it over the weekend. My copy of Australian Sky & Tel arrived on Monday and I am still working my way through this one....

My problem is US Sky & Tel....haven't received the current issue yet. Have received one copy in the last 5 months now and my subscription is paid up until 2011...if I don't get my copy tonight I will have to send them yet ANOTHER email pointing out that it never arrived, and probably not get a reply! It looks like I may miss out on 4 YEARS of issues if this keeps up! Perhaps I will have to try to get onto them over the phone too...

[mlcolbert]

Loupy1 Hi!

just to clarify, what may sound harsh is a response to what I have seen before and as you can see others don't wish to repeat a prior conversation. It is not simply on this site, but as I alluded to in my prior post, other varied discussion sites as well. Seriously, if someone has a problem with a supplier of a product or service, we live in a consumerist society, so you don't have to purchase their product. When enough people do that, the service folds, end of story.

As you rightfully state:..."a little consideration for the buyer..." this is what I found when I contacted them by telephone,(as others suggested) I found out that the delay was 'unavoidable' and the copy was on its way.

I think too that you should take into consideration the smiley I placed at the end of the statement as well, to put this into context, after all, that's what they are there for.

regards

michhael

[xelasnave]

If you are in business you have to deliver the goods by the date agreed...anything short of that is not acceptable..there can be no excuses.

If you can not meet the problems and still be on time you do not deserve client loyality and you can expect to generate a bad reputation....so why be content with the job not getting done ..for what ever reason.

It seems that the problem is not new.
If you pay your subscription they must record that and have a list.
It is simply not reasonable to expect to have to ring up to chase them...it is a reflection of poor control.

As with other businesses the customer has choice and they can choose between a good supplier and a bad supplier..relying on being Aussie and that the crew will accept the battler thing is not good enough in the real world.

Everyone can make a slip up but if it becomes the norm and there is always a reason why the terms of the contract are not met they deserve no sympathy .

One has to take responsibility and not be happy to blame something else.
How would they go if selling on EBAY ... the little buyer satifaction thingy would show if it is issolated or common..the rating is taken by purcahser into consideration.

The mag must change its rep by getting what they say they will do done..no excuses.

Personally I am happy to wait I am laid back to these sort of things but in general customers are unforgiving and to fail to understand that fact means you are on the way out of your business, even if they are smiling at you as they leave and are saying you are a wonderful chap.

alex

[Satchmo]

Jeese talk about pettiness. I've just finished reading my copy cover to cover, and its all100 % aussie authors that I've met at some time in my life including IIS own Mike Sidonio. I personally just don't get quite the same warm feeling reading US based articles in an aussie magazine, maybe thats just me. I'm not particularly into globalisation let alone in publishing.

The Sky and Space bashing on IIS gets really tiresome. Maybe you astronomy newbies might have more of a sense of pride about an aussie authored magazine if you'd been supporting it since 1988. I do read and enjoy Aus. Sky and Telescope too BTW. Theres room I'm sure for both magazines.

[xelasnave]

If you do not wish to be knocked out when you step in the ring dont stick your chin out and offer it for your demise.

There is no excuse for slack.
alex

[casstony]

This all boils down to expectations. It's reasonable for a new subscriber to be concerned when the magazine doesn't turn up on time, thus we should expect these threads to occur from time to time. Seasoned subscribers understand that time is relative at Sky & Space and stop their clocks until the magazine materializes from the ether. It's like getting six great surprises each year.

[Satchmo]

Beautifully put, Casstony. Thanks for injecting a little humor into the thread. :)

[xelasnave]

I am rarely disappointed because my expectations are less than the general market, however failure to address the problem will see the mag always a battler.
I helped start the magazine Australasian Dirt Bike and it was the same... my input was minimal but the founder/editor the late Geof Eldridge worked like a dog ..one man did it all as compared with a staff of 32 on the American original version...to which he had no affiliation.

Fortunately everyone supported him as we find in the support for the mag we are talking about... but he moved past being the victim of problems and established that mag as better than the American version.... and on a visit to the American office was told they saw his mag as better...at that point he had a staff of 2...they had a staff of 32...

He could have offered the excuse he was under resourced but never did I hear him say such..his cry was we can do better than what is there at the moment.
Sad to have a wonderful man like that leave us but he went the only way I guess he would have been happy with...killed in a desert race in the USA.

I always think of him when I think a dead line can not be reached... no excuses only results...pretty simple once you determine that you wont have it another way..its a choice.

It is all in commitment and not letting set backs stop what you are doing and recognising if you want to be the best you have to have no excuses.
alex

[casstony]

While I don't disagree with you Alex, I'm a little cautious about putting pressure on S&S for fear that they may give up and go home. I have to frequently reside in those time capsules known as 'Doctor's waiting rooms' and it's S&S that gets me through.

[xelasnave]

Well I thank you for the opportunity for me to agree that it is a fine magazine:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbs up:...

I doubt if he will pack up because of valid critism...one in that position rarely does...

I simply hope that he sees that he has a great product and that not to address "small" issues will be his undoing.

Humans generaly think they are very important and if they are not attended to fast it is an afront to their importance.... they take it personally is what I say and one must bear that in mind;).

But to cut thru all I have said and to offer something nice:D...I say this..

the mag is top class... I love it when I read it... I support it by buying it when I see it to the exclusion of others...

if I have a mag dollar to spend they get it first.... I think it is world class and simply unfortunate this silly little aspect takes away from their opportunity of growth (I expect).

Sorry to be so cranky but I have not slept well for a couple of days:eyepop:...all nighters at the scope and a trip to Sydney:D with a flat on the freeway and the spare under the junk in the back:mad2::D:lol::lol::lol:...thats my excuse:whistle:.... see I can use them to:lol::lol::lol:

alex:):):)

[iceman]

I don't think that's a fair statement. It's something I have read often on other messageboards when someone has a gripe about the so-called S&S bashing on IIS.

Funnily enough, it's often grouped with words like "censorship" and "free speech". Which is a total contradiction. This thread is "free speech". People are free to voice their opinions about Sky & Space, or Australian Sky & Telescope - both good and bad. And they often do.

I'm sure if you read back there's been just as many "supporting" threads for S&S, as so-called "bashing" threads.

The publishers and editors of Sky & Space have to expect negative sentiment when they are continually late. The publishers and editors of Australian Sky & Telescope have to expect negative sentiment about US content in an AU magazine. It comes with the territory.

[rogerg]

Got my copy yesterday in the letter box. Looks good, noticed several IIS members mentioned in there, and contributing significant content :thumbsup:

I've learned to live with the delays, I prefer that to no mag at all. However I am disappointed they appear to be spending considerable effort (and money?) on a new star party that most of us can't attend, I find that crazy and quite a turn-off to buying the magazine. They're a nation wide magazine but are putting so much in to an event that's in one state, I don't get it. :screwy:

[Satchmo]

It was just my impression that IIS community was a bit more pro AS&T : I may well be wrong .
Its easy to have ones thinking become coloured . I'll will try and keep a more open mind on all this.

[OneOfOne]

I feel I must agree with a number of people here when they say that S&S is an excellent magazine...it is. As for 100%, I guess this is actually impossible for a magazine on such a subject. If you quote an article from NASA, or write an article on something from them, is this Australian content? It gets a bit grey in this case, but I guess they mean someone sitting in an office in Australia typed the text for all of the articles. The 100% content bit isn't really a clincher for me anyway.

I would rather get the mag late, than pay for it and not get it! (aka US S&T)

[merlin8r]

But that was the exact problem that I has with Sky and Space. My wife bought me a subscription as a surprise, but I only received 4 copies in the subscription period. I did call, and was told it's the publishers fault that a copy didn't arrive. Needless to say, the publisher had a different opinion. And in my humble opinion, subscribers should always receive their copy before it is available in shops. I'm not bashing S&S, nor am I pro/con any magazine. The more we have the better. It was just the lack of communication that let me down.Clear skies,Shane

[DougAdams]

Technical Books is no more. They moved into Lonsdale or Latrobe Street (not sure which), but then closed down about a year later.

[Rodstar]

When I reflect on what it is that bugs me about S&S, I think it is that promises are endlessly made which are not fulfilled. For as long as I am aware, S&S has been saying in its editorial much the same thing along the general lines of...

"Sorry we're late this time. We have introduced some great improvements...we look forward to delivering a more timely magazine from next edition."

These promises have been repeatedly made, but not followed up with action.

A few months ago, as a test, I actually sent a succession of emails to S&S to enquire as to when their magazine would be coming out (the magazine was already by that stage quite late). I sent about 4 or 5 emails, which were very polite, seeking that basic information. My emails were completely ignored.

In light of this conduct, when S&S endlessly try to take the moral highground on the issue of content - that they are 100% Australian - I am bothered.

If that is the best that 100% Aussie made can do, then I would rather get McAstronomy from the US.

All of my dealings with AS&T have been first class. I have never found any promise to be made that has not been fulfilled.

When S&S get their house in order and put the magazine out on time, then I will begin to listen to their moral claims on content. Until then, their mantra is just a clanging noise, and my regard for their publication will be lessened.

I like many others do actually enjoy a lot of the content of S&S, but I have gone from being a paid up subscriber to an occasional newstand purchaser because of my disappointment regarding my experience of their business practices.

[MortonH]

I think that expecting a reply to an e-mail from a company that's struggling is optimistic. And would we prefer them to delay the mag even longer just so they can sort through e-mails and apologise for the delay?

I agree that it's not the best customer service, but if you already ackowledge that this mag is operating against stiff competition with limited resources, then perhaps we need to make some allowances.

As for e-mails, they are the worst way to try and deal with a complaint. How many e-mails do we all receive every day at work and home? I know I struggle to read them all, let alone respond to all of them.

I see this happen with my staff every day: they send off an e-mail asking for something and then they put it out of their mind, assuming that the recipient will (a) receive their e-mail, (b) read their e-mail, and (c) action their request within a reasonable timescale. In many cases, a two-minute phone call would have got the desired response.

Maybe it's particularly disappointing because the astronomical vendors in this country respond to e-mails the next day, and we've become accustomed to this level of service...

But I also agree with the general consensus that I never know when the next issue will hit the shelves, and I'd rather read a local mag, especially one that has so many contributions from IIS members.

Morton

[Satchmo]

Fair comment. I guess it just depends what your needs are in regards to delivery times and local content .
If they could use foreign content at will like AS&T they would have the magazine out much more often on time I've no doubt, so I'm prepared to 'cut them some slack'. The task S&S have at hand is probably an unenviable one and a difficult one with such a small pool of potential authors.

Anyway, I enjoy both mags but I think the claim of wholly Australian written content by S&S( and yes the hair splitters can challenge that )is a perfectly fair and significant one to me and for all intents and purposes they acheive it. The amount of Australian based content in AS&T doesn't even come close but I know this is not important to some people.

I hope S&S can sort out delivery times but one wonders after 20 years, so I'll just enjoy it when it comes out. I just hope they can both forge a permanent existance: like 'Astronomy' and 'Sky and Telescope' diversity and competition in Astro publishing has to be good.

[astroron]

Pressure has been put on them for nearly twenty years and it has not made a blind bit of difference, they still carn't put it out on time.

[DougAdams]

Twenty years?!

I didn't renew my subscription as I only ever seemed to receive a couple of issues a year. I know, it probably wasn't as bad as that. Also, the quality of the magazine seemed uneven. I also recall one chap seemed to write half the articles (perhaps that's why it's always behind schedule!).

[rumples riot]

I feel sorry for the crew at S&S.

This time I agree with you Mark, despite what has been said this happens (bashing) more often than not.

Been buying their mag since the time when there was only Astronomy Now and S&S. Always good and always late. I don't see that as a problem really.

[Lee]

If you aren't going to answer emails, don't have an email address. Doesn't take long to have a standard reply sent off to all who enquire - these are the people who are paying their way.....

[centauri]

Let me just say this

I AM NOT out to just bash this mag, if it was any other product I would have done the same.
In fact I enjoy this mag which is why it is disappointing. I am pro Aussie stuff and support aussie business where possible.

That said, I recieved a reply email today which covered all the questions of all the previous emails. And the result is that they are sending one out el prompto, thankyou Mario.

To those who think emails are not a valid form of communication in business today, WHAT THE ?

Anyway thankyou to all who responded it has made interesting reading and I think we should maybe just leave it at that!

[xelasnave]

I have not said it but what really ticks me off is the way they hide behind we are Aussie trip doing it tuff...this is crap...

my experience with Dirt Bike Mag tells me that..its is a lame excuse...

knowing what to expect who in their right mind would subscribe???

I like the surprise of finding it at the newsagent not the surprise of wondering when it will be in the letter box... but with the growing group of astronomers more will vote with their feet... if you have a mag subscriptions are good business so why destroy this aspect with little regard to the consequence... it is business suicide...

when he goes down it will be everyone elses fault I expect. If he was commited to being best this would not be being aired here right now.

I hope things will change I would like them to be a quality Ausie Mag distributed world wide..and lests face it Aussie means good astronomy, we are the envy of all in the game world wide, that is promotable...what an opportunity going to waste... how many subscribtions will not go forward world wide becasue of the displeasure aired here.

You are stupid not to improve your game, particualrly when all say it is a problem that must be addressed.
alex

[Glenhuon]

I did subscibe to the late lamented Southern Sky and also to Sky and Space just after the two combined. Late or non delivery of issues caused me to not renew my subscription and ever since have just picked it up if it is available at a newsagents.
I am a bit unforgiving when it comes to not fulfilling contracts. In my job I used to spend large amounts of company money on materials, businesses got 2 chances for fulfilling orders on time, after the second let down, I looked elsewhere.

[iceman]

I don't know that it's hair splitting to say that Tony Gondola is not Australian and doesn't live in Australia?

[Orion]

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about.

[Satchmo]

Yes , I 'd call that hair-splitting when the other 15 or so authors in the magazine are all australian residents.
One foreign written article hardly brings down anyones perception of a magazine who is acheiving an exposure of most predominently Australian talent.

Mike , you are an AS&T contributer and AS&T are sponsors of your website. Your comment hardly projects an air of neutrality from IIS maneagement ? :shrug:

[WadeH]

Got my Sept/Oct? issue of S&S yesterday. As usual a quick glance reveiled what will probably be a great read.

That said, I can put up with the continued lateness as this has no real affect on the greater content, but, as an astronomy mag. what does get up my goat are the sections that show and tell what is going to happen in the heavens over the term of the issue. What is the use when the data is so out of date by the time the mag is recieved?

That said I shall continue to subscribe as I can for the present forgive this for the greater read.

[iceman]

You're right about me staying me out of the debate, Mark. My comment wasn't meant to take sides. I apologise if I offended anyone.

I enjoy reading all astronomy magazines. I enjoyed both Mike Sidonio's and Paul Mayo's articles in the recent S&S.

There's 2 major astronomy magazines in the US, with a much bigger amateur astronomy market. I hope Australia/NZ continues to be able to support 2 magazines. It would mean that amateur astronomy continues to grow, and that's a good thing for all of us.

[Rodstar]

100% Australian does not equal 93% Australian.

Mike's point is correct, and does not indicate any loss of objectivity.

The moral high ground S&S is trying to claim seems to be suffering considerable subsidence.....

[Lee]

I've wondered about that myself too...... :shrug:

[mib]

I think S&S is a great mag and my wife enjoys it too. I feel there is considerable agreement on this but the issue is the continued tardiness in its delivery.

I personally don't mind it being a month out of sync with AS&T it helps to spread the reading. I find it more anoying when it is a month and a half late. I just think they should change its issue to Oct-Nov and stop pretending they were ever going to get it out for Sept.;)

The only thing they would have to change is what's on in the sky pages. I know most people here may not have great use for them but many people starting out do. After all they are 15% or more of the mag we are paying for considerably more than small amount of OS content being debated. :rofl:

So S&S just change your issue names, so the next one is Dec-Jan and fix the sky pages and the problem is gone away! :whistle:

[Dazzler]

I sent an email to S&S yesterday as I wasn 't sure when my subscription ended. They replied within an hour that it ended the previous month.

I promptly resubscribed on their website. Hopefully the current issue doesn't take too long to get to me.

Great to get a quick response from them but in hindsight I am amazed that they hadn't troubled to at least send me an email to try and get my subscription renewed.

If I hadn't followed it up I don't think anything would have happened.

Should be easy to make use of a database of current subscribers. :shrug:

[StarLane]

It's a business and not a charity. We pay for this thing, it's not a freeby. The least they can do is make sure it's out on time. Why is the Sep Oct edition released half way through Oct??? although I have not seen it in newsagents here yet. They have skipped issues in the past altogether, one recently becasue they couldn't complete it on time. There is always an excuse (which I have found out later), new look mag meaning longer to create, printing problems, what ever. It is obviously a popular magazine, someone makes profit out of it, why don't they put on a couple more staff??, maybe it can get released on time?
I've got to tell ya, I will never be subscribing to such a magazine.

There is obviously alot of people out there concerned about the delay with every issue, evidence of this is the amount of people replying to this thread in only a couple of days.

In the past I too have sent polite emails commending them on a great Oz mag and to ask when can we possibly see the next edition in the shops, and you guest it, no reply.

[xelasnave]

Well its time for a new face..it may be time for someone to step up and say I dont need an excuse to justify my slack approach..maybe..just maybe..someone will seize the opportunity that is available by being on time, being in tune and being there. It is not much to ask ..give me what I paid for and hold the excuses..so simple really.
alex

[astroron]

A few years ago they had a spread about the forthcoming Queensland AstroFest, The magazine came out in the shops the day AstroFest started:(
Hence the name Lost In Space:lol:

[xelasnave]

Like the adds you get on TV sometimes advertizing a sale that happened a day earlier... no excuse for stupid, no excuse for slack , still some folk think its ok so long as they go thru the motions..it is not ok... you cut it or give it in...
A muso does not get awy with saying... my string broke... they play with the ones that are left..no grizzle...no excuses... simple.
Try bike racing with excuses ..I could not fiund my goggles so the race should have not started before I found them..
get real ....
I think another mag will pop up and blow them away...the writing is on the wall... the weak fail the strong take over.
alex

[Bisqueboy]

Id hang onto all your Australian Sky and Telescope subscriptions just yet folks :) Theres a great disturbance in the force.

[firstlight]

Um, Southern Sky didn't combine or merge with S&S, but succumbed to a relentless economic attack. You might be referring to the name change from Southern Astronomy, an effort to appeal to a larger audience.



As I said earlier, the market in Australia is small and financially difficult to produce a quality mag to deadlines. Having said that, I'm a big boy, I can handle being told that money is tight and the mag will be late. However most responses I got ranged from "It is at the printers, you will have it next week" (arrived 2 months later), "the premises burnt down" (not sure how many times), "my dog ate the proofs" (OK... I made that one up, but you get the idea).

I don't like being told untruths. Can't bring myself to subscribe again, (2 year sub lasted 4, =12 issues). Has to have something special in it to get me to buy it from the stands.

[AJames]

Ah Dear Bisqueboy,

Yet again you have decided to show your head again into the speculative world of the local telescope magazine machinations, eh? After your almost wicked IIS romp during August/ September with your thread "Australian Sky and Telescope Troubles", no one ever thought you be brave enough to return?

Isn't Funny. Last time you were questioning the ethics and business practices of AS&T and now your seemingly supporting them! So what gives?

Pot stirring is one thing, but do you have the courage to reveal your sources? Methinks not. Hence, you should probably be ignored.

As for your "disturbance in the farce", whoops force, I somehow already think this presumed quiver is all in your own mind. [Besides, like me, you probably wouldn't have enough metachlorians in your system to discover what's going on anyway. :lol:]

Be sure to give my kindest regards to your sources.

(PS. The Meade adverts in AS&T did come back you know!!!)

[rogerco]

What is it about magazines that people can't cope with them being a little late before they start bagging them, are they so addictive that the readers go into withdrawal and their fingers start shaking over the keyboard.

I think its great that a minority hobby has two local magazines. I have been involved with ham radio and hobby electronics for many years and have seen that field reduce from four to one (with no ham radio mag other than the Institute one). And they suffered from the "why is it late" problem from their readers.

I have also been involved with club magazines where everybody wants a mag but nobody wants to contribute anything.

I'm just glad to have some local mags with southern sky content which I can buy at half the price of the northern alternatives.

Roger Cooper

[Neilzstar]

So where on Page 99 of AS&T is Meade officially listed - never mind the agents. Maybe Bisqueboy was not so wrong. Neilzstar

[AJames]

See: http://www.austskyandtel.com.au/advertiser_sites.htm

If there was a problem they wouldn't be here?

[ving]

bah! its a good read, i recieved mine ages ago and have read it cover to cover :)

[Neilzstar]

Still not in the mag. Neilzstar

[h0ughy]

its time we started to complain about clear skies and a full moon:P, more to been seen and imaged for the next time we come together to complain:whistle:

[Neilzstar]

hOughy, Not sure that I am complaining, merely pointing out a bit of spin that perhaps should not have occurred. I noticed it particularly as I have waited for my AS&T to see about Meade, and I can't find them. Again, as in other posts, I tell all that I take both magazines. Cheers, Neilzstar

[Dennis]

There are reports, press releases, rumours and opinions concerning Meade’s future circulating on the SCT user group (Yahoo Groups).

Cheers

Dennis

[Satchmo]

I don't care really about whether or not S&S has a right or not to claim `moral high ground'..93% or 100% is still splitting hairs IMHO. S&S is essentially Australian content .

[centauri]

Firstly, my apologies for resurrecting this topic....
I am including a couple of emails below, after recieving a request by Lyle Rumble of Sky and Space to do so.
Lyle believes my 2 original posts to be misleading and is requesting this action to take place.
So here they are, for you all to peruse and make informed decisions on, the names have been altered to protect my and my partner Lee's privacy, she originally made the subscription.

I should also mention that this post in no way represents an admission of liability or wrong doing on my behalf and is posted purely in the interest of peace and harmony!


Emails begin......

Hello Lee

Mario sent to me today the copy of an email (see
below) that he sent you.

A little while ago this evening, I was alerted by
one of the many supporters of 'Sky and Space' to
view a post that your partner, Darren xxxxx, made
on a local astronomy forum - Iceinspace.

(A copy of that post is attached.)

I have just now visited that forum and, quite
frankly, I was somewhat flabbergasted by Darren's
reckless and derogatory post. The ensuing flak that
such an irresponsible post (No. 01) has created for
'Sky and Space' is certainly reprehensible and
potentially libellous.

I have also now seen a second post (No. 35), also
attached, made by Darren that has further totally
misrepresented the situation. This second post
in no way indicates the facts as to what happened
as explained to you by Mario.

This is so much so that I believe Darren's two posts
have been vexatious to the extreme. For some very
strange, inexplicable reason he has decided to vent
his/your spleen against 'Sky and Space'.

We would be writing to Darren direct but we do not
have his email address.

We have many, many thousand of very happy readers.

I acknowledge, like most businesses, we also have
a small number of people who have a very legitimate
complaint (and we work hard to fix any such problems
and satisfy those folk).

Also, we have a handful of mischievous troublemakers
(who strangely enough all seem to be on the Iceinspace
forum).

We do not want to waste our time and energy with
those few mischievous people who have no real
constructive criticism to offer but are merely intent
to cause us problems.

I have learnt many years ago that there is a very
small number of people who cannot be satisfied and
in trying to do so you inhibit your ability to be of
service to the many, many thousands of other people
who share the ideals of a 100% locally-owned and
100% locally-produced magazine.

With this in mind, we would prefer not to have you
as a subscriber as we believe you (or at least
Darren) fit into the mischievous category.

Therefore, tomorrow I will be sending to you, via
Express Post, a full refund of the $44 subscription.

This means we will have sent you three magazines
at no charge but we'll write that off to experience.

Upon receipt of the re-sent magazine and of the
refund cheque I would expect that you post Mario's
email and this email onto the Iceinspace forum so
people can see the true facts.

I would also advise we reserve our rights to pursue
any/all legal redress to have this matter resolved
in a satisfactory manner.

I look forward to receipt of an email from you when
the above post has been actioned.

Lyle Rumble
Publisher and Managing Editor

==================================

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Subscription problems
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:04:27 +1000
From: Mario Nucifora <Mario.Nucifora@SkyandSpace.com.au (Mario.Nucifora@SkyandSpace.com.au)>
To: Lee xxxxxxx

Lee xxxxxxx wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have emailed you a couple of times now with no
> response.
>
Hello Lee

Thanks for your email alerting me to a problem. The
only other email I have received from you is the one
dated 7 August 2007 where you requested for the
subscription to be changed to start with the Jul/Aug
2007 issue. This I did and I sent you the magazine
together with the DVDs ordered.

This previous 7 August email you sent had a Subject
Line' headed 'oops'. If these other above referenced
emails (that I did not receive) had other similar
obscure Subject Lines then perhaps they were blocked
by our spam filters.

For obvious reasons, we are keen to ensure that all
valid emails get through. So that I may investigate the
problem further and avoid a repeat for someone else
would you please forward me these emails from your
Sent folder in an email showing the above Subject Line
as per this email (as we know that at least this got
through this time ok).

> Back in August I paid for a subscription with
> your magazine and am
> still waiting for the
> current issue to be delivered.

The current issue of Sky and Space Magazine has
been mailed out to all subscribers by our mailing
house (I did double check the data base and you
are definitely on it so - there is no problem at our
end). As you have not received your magazine
then obviously it has gone astray in the mail.

With the very high volume of mail we send out, we
find that invariably there are a few magazines that
do not get properly delivered. When that happens -
we automatically send a replacement.

Over the last 19 years of publishing the magazine we
have had numerous 'discussions' with Australia Post
who deny all responsibility to the point we have now
given up even raising it with them. We simply replace
any lost issues and we absorb the added costs.

However, I do apologise on behalf of Australia Post.

> This was a gift for my partners birthday, Darren
> xxxxxx, who has also
> emailed you regarding this, with again no reply.

Again - I have had no email from Darren. As
mentioned above, please forward me Darren's email
so that I can look into the matter and we can avoid a
repeat of the problem.
>
> I now notice that you are finally advertising the
> Sept/Oct issue to be
> in stores today (besides the fact that it is only
> 2 weeks til the end
> of Oct), I was under the impression that
> subscribers recieve their copies before mass
> distribution.
>
Yes - we do our best to have the subscribers get
their magazine first. It is a pity in your case this
did not happen for you. I do apologise you have
become embroiled in this Australia Post problem.

> I would dearly love, and think I deserve, an
> explaination as to what
> is going on.
> Regards
> Lee xxxxxxx
> xxxxxxxxxxx
> Karratha WA
> 6714

I confirm that a replacement magazine is being sent
(via Express Post) to you today. Would you please
confirm receipt as I would not like to find out that
it too has been lost!

I look forward to receiving copies of the emails
that have not been previously received and to
being of further service to you.

Yours sincerely

Mario Nucifora
Operations Manager
=================================== ==============
Sky and Space Magazine
The premier astronomy and space
magazine for the southern skies.

Guaranteed to be 100% genuinely
produced in Australia and wholly
Australian owned - since 1988.

PO Box 1690, 23 Bronte Rd
Bondi Junction NSW 1355

[AJames]

I have some clear objections to two of the statement made in the replies here, and feel I should say something.
1) Over the years "Sky and Space" is well known to have had problems from time to time with delivery of its magazine. Whilst there maybe legitimate reasons or not, this continues to be a bug-bear for those subscribing to the magazine - as evidence in this thread. This fact is undeniable and is absolutely true.
Yet here the replies you have submitted clearly are trying to silence its critics with atypical threats of legal action.

Whilst I agree they may have the right to pursue any legal redress or action, they do not have the right to intimidate others - especially one of their now ostracised ex-subscribers.

Frankly, I don't like the threats here at all.

If Mr. Rumble and his staff really wants to satisfactorily improve the relationship(s) with S&S customers then I suggest he instead look a bit more carefully at the magazine he provides instead of "beating up" on its own customers.

2) As to the other action, well even saying this is quite inexcusable, especially against expected normal business practices and ethics;



If this is so, how does any one formally complain? If S&S management doesn't seem to care at all, especially against the allegation "We have both tried emailing them multiple times but they simply do not respond at all."

If this is true, then what is someone to do?

So much for the old adage "The customer is always right" !

Comment: After reading this, then Mario's later statements about S&S;"
"Sky and Space Magazine. The premier astronomy and space magazine for the southern skies."; and
"Guaranteed to be 100% genuinely produced in Australia and wholly
Australian owned - since 1988."
Yeah. But what about Australian business practices? Makes you wonder.

[iceman]

IceInSpace cops a lot of flak from some people because we allow so-called "Sky & Space bashing". It's worth noting that in cases like this, IIS has no opinion - IceInSpace is simply the medium and people are expressing their own thoughts and concerns. IceInSpace cannot be seen to take sides, or censor the discussions from either side. People are free to voice their opinions, so long as they don't violate the Terms of Service.

Having said that, I think it's time to move onto more positive things and allow those with personal grievances either way to sort the matter out in private. Everyone has had a chance to have their say and there would be little point in rehashing it all again.