Binocular advice

[Darkplague]

Hi all,

I'm a relative newbie to astronomy and am interested in getting some binoculars as a start. I have found some on e-bay, they are 10x50, with bak-7 porro prisms. But the coating is a ruby red coat. (multicoated). Is this good for night viewing at all? If not, what kind of coat is?

My first scope was a meade ar-6 refractor with goto. (Trufflehunters).
I have now regretfully sold it as I can't use it in my backyard without making all the dogs bark because of the goto drives. It became too annoying, everytime I would use the goto, all the neigbourhood dogs would go nuts.
Now I am getting a 10" dob with the crayfish focuser instead.
I hope this scope isnt as noisy :+)

Anyway nice to meet you all and hope to post some more in the future!

Mark

[toetoe]

I am sure someone here could help you Mark, i know nothing about binocs as yet.
Shame to hear about the dogs making you get rid of the scope but you sound like you have made a good choice with the dob. I have a problem with the cat smooching against the tripod. :(

[[1ponders]]

:lol2: I just heard all the Dobbers going "Crayford!!!" "Not Crayfish" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: You've made my night Mark. Thanks.

(wipes tears from eyes) What brand are the binocs. There are numerous different multicoatings. From what I understand the better ones for night viewing are those with blue or greenish coatings. My understand is that the red ones are for cutting down glare in extremely bright situations, I could be wrong (its happened before :P ). Not something that happens often at night unless your looking at the moon. If they reflect your image if you look at the objective lenses then this is likely the case. Some brands (mediocre quality ones) often coat their lenses so they look impressive but actually don't do a lot....depends alot on the brand. eg "multicoated" Tasco :fight: :P :mad: :doh: multicoated Pentax, Nikon etc (not specifically these brands just an example) :love: :2thumbs: :party: :jump2: :jump2:


First off what brand are they. Then maybe we can give you some better advice.

[fringe_dweller]

Mark - i dont like the sound of the ruby red coating - you shouldnt visibly see much cheap coatings on anything for astronomical use (generally speaking) I would think? I could be wrong? restricts the amount of light that could pass thru - we actually think we have improved some old cheap second hand camera lenses light transmittence by gently accidently rubbing off what was left of the coatings just by the early cleaning style *someone* use to do LOL :) I found most cheap binos to be made strictly for daylight use only -
Whats the deal with the goto? emitting frequencies that dogs dont like ??!! :) how loud are we talking about? (i have nevr seen one in the flesh - other than shops)
Kearn

[Starkler]

I should warn you that ebay isnt the place to look for quality optical gear. Its more a place to offload trash that you wouldnt buy if you could see it first hand.

I bought a pair of binos which supposedly had bak4 prisms from ebay. As it turned out they were NOT bak4, and of poor quality full of internal reflections. This particular vendor counted on the buyer not knowing how to tell the difference and luckily after arguing the point I got a refund.

Ebay really is a minefield for those who dont know exactly what they are looking for.

[ausastronomer]

Hi Mark and welcome to the group.

I recommend giving those E-bay binos the flick pass and buying something 1/2 decent. Actually forget about buying astronomy equipment from E-Bay period. There are no such things as Bak-7 prisms, you get BK-7 or Bak-4, with Bak-4 being much more desirable as these prisms have a higher light transmittance across a wider refractive angle through the prisms.

With the cost of medium quality binoculars becoming more reasonable all the time you can get a pair of mid level binos in the 8x40, 10x50 to 12x50 class for between $200 and $300. Such brands include the Pentax PCF WP and Nikon Action Extreme. These Binos are fully multi coated and both use Bak-4 prisms. They are also porro prism design which in cheaper binoculars are better than roof prisms. Expensive roof prism binoculars are very good but you need to spend >$1,000 to get good roof prism binoculars which use phase coated prisms and have the same high light transmission as porro prisms which is necessary for night time astronomical viewing.

CS-John B

[ballaratdragons]

Hey Mark,

You can get Binocs for free!!!

You say you want to buy a Dobbie, well Andrews give a free pair of binocs with each Dobbie bought.

They aren't big and spectacular but they work pretty good. They are 10X32 with proper Astronomical (blue) multi-coating.

And by the way, Dobbies make a lot of noise. You going WOW! and OOOOHHHH!!! when you see the great images BIG Dobbies give. LOL

[acropolite]

I've got a pair of 7x50's and a pair of 11-30 Zoom binocs. The 7x50's are Bressers and are perfect for browsing. They have excellent eye relief as well. The zoom binocs on the other hand have terrible eye relief and at 11x they really need some sort of mount, and optically are nowhere near as good as the 7x50's.

[Darkplague]

I was waiting for someone to pick up on the crayfish bit :)

I'm only looking for a casual binocular. I would rather spend my limited budget on some good EP's. I had a feeling that the red coats are no good also.

[Darkplague]

You mentioned the Nikon action extremes, well what about this pair:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7523046298&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

It is on only "action" and not action extreme. I'm guessing it would be the model below the AE. Being Nikon it wouldnt be too bad perhaps.

[slice of heaven]

Welcome Mark
Hope you got the side dressing with that crawdad focuser.lol
I was under the impression the red coatings are a cover up for false colours.
The binos we received free from Andrews were red coated.

[[1ponders]]

Red coating is not necessarily "no good" if they are from a reputable manufacturer, just maybe no good for what you want to do with them at night. But I agree totally with the advice given so far, "Beware buying astronomy gear off ebay"

[Darkplague]

Were talking like an electric drill type sound, but more of a droning/whining.

I just live near stupid dogs that always go off when they hear police/ambulance sirens, and anything really . I thought maybe after I was out a few times they would get used to it , but they just wouldnt adapt!! :((

I also have aperture fever and need some more inches!!!

Reading that last line back in my head, it sounds really bad. :)

[ballaratdragons]

You gotted a bit ripped off methinks. Andrews sent me the small astro model. Great at night. Mediocre/good of a day. The Objective lenses are faint blue multi and the Eye end is faint violet. Hey, they were free! They actually work better than Cheryl's super expensive ($500+) Pentax GIANT Binocs.

[fringe_dweller]

I also have aperture fever and need some more inches!!!

Reading that last line back in my head, it sounds really bad. :)[/QUOTE]

I get spam emails telling me how you can fix that all the time :rofl:

Millimetres and centimetres are just not as not as impressive (?) as saying i am going to get my Yard 'scope out now

wow i had never heard that about goto's before - thanks for the ammo
welcome to owning a real scope mate :)
Kearn

[ballaratdragons]

Gonna buy me a Goto!

Whhhiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr . . woof woof . . click-whhhhiiiiiiizzzzzzzz . . woof woof woof!

[fringe_dweller]

Ken, :bowdown: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Non dob owners - :poke: :scared3:

[slice of heaven]

Ripped off, NAH. It was the big piece of glass I bought that I was interested in. Not the gimmicky extras.
The binos sat untouched for weeks until the lad thought they'd be handy at the footy.

[fringe_dweller]

Some pretty excellent advice from evryone :) thought i would mention my best quality binos are a pair of eschenbach 8x56's, I like that little bit more aperture trade off - still easy to hold - i paid way too much for them at the time ( nearly 400 i think?) - new - there are lots of much better ones out there - but the eschenbachs have proved very sturdy - have never gone out of collimation which is important in binos! i looked through a pair of $4000 leica compact binos in a shop once - it looked better than real life!! - nearly fell over - some sort of beer goggle affect? My 25x100's are a pair of cheap Kunming's which i bought for looking at bright binocular comets only really (and at which they are very very good at! low surface brightness objects benifit from the increased aperture and contrast (1.4x) -need good tripod tho - also very sturdy)- I have seen them as low as $500? And you only really need cheap full on colour correction coatings for looking at bright objects like the full moon really?
Kearn

[iceman]

Hi Darkplague, nice to see you make your first post! :) How did you hear about us?

You're doing the right thing - getting some binoculars while saving up for the 10" dob. It's a shame you had to self your goto reflector, but I can understand about the noise.

The 10" dob makes no noise, and later down the track you can still have "push-to" in the form of DSC's (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/?dsc) like SkyCommander or ArgoNavis, if star-hopping isn't your cup of tea, or you want to find more objects, faster. You can also get tracking in the form of an EQ platform (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=2425), again it makes no noise.

The bino advice you received is all good, Andrews have some good quality gear at a good price. I started with some Saxon 11x70's for $220. They're fine for astronomical use (not the highest quality, but they're ok), but as Slice (I think it was) said, don't forget you might want a tripod and tripod adapter to hold them steady - big aperture binoculars with high magnification are hard to hold steady and you see much less detail in objects when it's bouncing around your field-of-view.

Good luck and keep us informed! and don't wait so long before your next post! :)

[trufflehunter]

Hi Mark! I just noticed your post and didn't realise you had sold the AR6... I hope it's gone to a good home! The motors on the LXD55 mount are pretty noisy at max slew, although it never bothered the dogs. But one night it frightened a bat out of a tree! I don't know who was more frightened, the bat or me! The LX90 isn't really that much quieter either!

You've made a good decision getting a dob. It really encourages you to learn your way around without being side-tracked by the technical issues of a go-to mount.

[ausastronomer]

Ken,

Actually I think your the one that got ripped off maybe ?

The largest porro prism binoculars that Pentax "currently" makes/sells are the 20x60 PCF WP II and you can buy these for about $300.

http://centre.net.au/Pentax_20x60_PCF_WP_II_Binoculars_0 007KY.html

The original PCF WP series of Pentax Binoculars also included a 16x60 model which retailed for between $300 and $380 (I paid $320 about 3 years ago for mine) with the original 20 x 60 PCF WP costing just under $400. If you paid over $500 for either of these binoculars someone saw you coming. If your talking about paying over $500 for any of the Pentax roof prism binos I can understand the price, because roof prism binos are a "LOT" more expensive than porros and at the lower price levels (under $1,500) are not as good as porros for astronomy, however these aren't even close to being considered "giant". Which model and size Pentax Binos are you referring ? Something from years past maybe early PCF's or PCF III's, PCF V which were more expensive in the early days ? Its worth noting that the early PCF binoculars, up to the PCF III's were made in Japan. The later PCF series (V and WP) I believe are assembled in China from Japanese components.

That having been said, NO binoculars Andrews gives away for free (I doubt any that he sells as well) will come close to the performance of the 16x60 or 20x60 Pentax PCF WP. These actually perform way beyond there price level and perform BETTER than the smaller Pentax PCF WP binoculars due to an additional eyepiece lens element. The 20 x 60's also incorporate a field flattener lens. These are both high class binoculars at a lower/mid price level. They are not as good as Zeiss, Leica, Fujinon, Nikon or Swarovski but they offer 80 to 90% of the performance of the top quality binos at 10% of the price and perform infinitely better than any of the cheaper Chinese products which is generally what Andrews sells or gives away. They are so superior to anything with "ruby red coatings coming from E-Bay" its not funny.

CS-John B

[ausastronomer]

Mark,

Your correct in your assumption, The Nikon Action are a lower level cheaper binocular than the EX. Here are links to the respective webpages from Maxwell Optical Indutrues, who are the Australian Distributors for Nikon.

Nikon Action EX
http://www.maxwell.com.au/products/nikon/sportoptics/binoculars/standard/action_ex.html

Nikon Action
http://www.maxwell.com.au/products/nikon/sportoptics/binoculars/standard/action.html

If you click on the price guide at the top right corner of each page you will see that for the 10x50 models the Recommended Retail of the 10x50 Action EX is $499 and for the 10x 50 Action is $370. If you shop around you will do infinitely better than this pricewise. Forget about E-Bay, buy from a reputable dealer, If you have warranty issues you want to be able to return them to the purchaser/distributor not hunting for a "non-existent seller". My guess is that company's like Diamonds Camera Store or Centre.net would order either of these binos in for you and the price would be about 60% to 70% of the RRP. The EX series offer better quality optics, significantly longer eye-relief and they are waterproof. The EOF performance is sharper in the EX series. Depends what quality your looking for and what you are prepared to pay. The Nikon Action are a "fair" binocular but IMO not as good as the Action EX or the Pentax PCF WP which cost slightly less money. I always try to buy the best quality I can afford and not look for "el-cheapo" comprises, I have a theory and that is "the poor man always ends up paying twice". eg. The Pentax 12x50 PCF WP which cost about $270 have a limited lifetime warranty, company's don't offer that type of warranty on crap products. I should also point out that in the Pentax PCF WP series I prefer the 12x50's over the 10x50's as the 12x50's have an additional eyepiece lens element which provides a slighly flatter field than the 10x50's do and EOF performance is a little better than the 10x50's, not that the 10x50's are bad just the 12x50's are a little better to the EOF.

I would recommend you open your wallet and buy either the 12x50 Pentax PCF WP II or the 10x50 Nikon Action EX. You will be happy with either of these Binos for a long time to come. Anything bigger than these and you really need a tripod to support them.

CS-John B

[RAJAH235]

After reading all these posts, I can only say, anyone want to buy a pair of 'Gerber' 7 x 50's? In perfect/as new condition. Hardly used. If interested, please PM. Regards, L. :D
They are still in the 'For sale' section.

[Starkler]

I beleive the pentaxs have a narrowish field of view compared to the Nikons which is another factor to decide on .

[ausastronomer]

Geoff,

Thats true but the Pentax's offer a sharp contrasty view to the edge of the slightly narrow FOV will retaining 20mm of eye-relief. The Nikon's are not as sharp at the EOF albeit the field is larger. Blurry stars the size of soccer balls at the edge of a wide field of view don't row my boat I am afraid.

Ahhhhhhhhhh FI why doesn't Mark just open his wallet and buy the Nikon 10x42 SE Porro's. Optically they are about as good as it gets and no one can find fault with em. Unfortunately they are well over $1,000. Oops they ain't waterproof :)

CS-John B

[ballaratdragons]

John,

Apology on the way I explain things. Giant to me meant bigger than my Andrews ones. They are ASAHI PENTAX AOCO and are actually only 8x40 widefield 9.5 degrees. I'll have to watch my termanologies! Cheryls Dad bought them overseas 15 - 20 years ago and they are made in Japan. Cheryls Mum said he paid around $500 for them. He didn't care about the price as the police (he was a cop) reimbursed him anyway.

[ausastronomer]

John,

I don't mean to nit pick and I am not taking a cheap shot in any way but I think we need to understand the difference between "really good binoculars" and "the rest" for the sake of others that may read this thread and for the sake of those that have not used top quality binoculars. I am also not taking a cheap shot at Lee Andrews in any way either, Lee is a great bloke and sells what the majority of people wish to buy and that is "a good serviceable product at a competitive price".

Lee doesn't sell any "really good binoculars". "Really Good Binoculars" are made by companies like Zeiss, Leica, Fujinon, Miyauchi, Takahashi, Nikon, Minox, Steiner and Swarovski and made in either Germany or Japan and all cost way over $1,000. Its worth noting that companies like Nikon, Canon and Pentax produce some very expensive top quality binoculars which are made in Japan and they also produce some mid level good quality products made under licence in China and they also produce some total crap made in China so just because a product is labelled as Nikon or Pentax doesn't mean its top quality, it does mean that at least the product is distributed and supported by a reputable manufacturer.

There are a large number of optical manufacturers in China that produce reasonable products and a large number that produce junk, so it helps to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff. Some of the junk that is produced in China is sold in Australia at ridiculously high prices given the optical and mechanical quality of the product. A lot of people search for bargains but some of the stuff out of China aint a bargain, it sells for like $200 and should sell for $20. Reputable people like Lee Andrews "usually" sell products manufactured by the more reliable Chinese manufactuers but Caveat Emptor, particularly in respect of E-Bay sellers and the like.

If you have never used a pair of top quality astronomical binoculars like the big Zeiss 15x60 BGAT Classics or the Takahashi 22x60 Flourite APO binoculars or the 16x70 Fujinons, I suggest you try to do so when you next attend a public star party as they really provide wonderful views compared to lesser quality products, but then again with their price tags so they should (eg the Zeiss are no longer available but cost well over $3k).

CS-John B

[ausastronomer]

Ken,

No need for any apology. What your saying makes a lot of sense as the price of mid level binoculars has dropped remarkably in the last 20 years and the quality has increased by about the same amount. 20 years ago $500 bought you a "fair" pair of binoculars and now $400 will buy you a much better pair by comparison so its all good.

CS-John B

[Darkplague]

Gosh, all this information to take in.

Thanks everyone for your input. I've learnt alot from all of you and have decided to spend a little more and get something decent. (not from e-bay).

Atm I am just tossing up which dob to get from Andrews, and since they are throwing in a set of binoculars, maybe if I pay him a little bit extra on top, he may upgrade me to a much better pair of binos. Worth a try anyway.

[johnno]

Hi All,
John,
You are quite right I may have been a little overeager to help,with my description of "really good binoculars",however I feel a lot of the ones you mention while,they are certainly the best of the best,are often way out of the pricerange of the majority of people,so to me, really good binoculars,are the ones that satisfy most "good" criteria,at a price most of us can afford.
My apologies if my description was misleading.I will delete the posts,so no one else will be mislead
I must learn to curb my enthusiasm.
Regards.John

[ausastronomer]

John,

I certainly didn't mean to dampen your enthusiasm or for you to delete your post. I think your post contained a lot of relevant information as the products that Andrews sells will be the quality and price level that lots of people are looking to buy, they may be the price and quality level Mark is looking for, then again he may want something a little better, thats his decision. The products Andrews sells are good and serviceable and very competitively priced. I was only trying to point out they weren't close to the best that is available to someone with a "FAT" wallet. We always need to be aware that to some people money isn't an issue and they wish to purchase the best quality money can buy, the majority of us need to be a little bit budget conscious and in this regard Andrews provides a great service to the amateur astronomy community.

My apologies if you took my post the wrong way, sometimes its difficult to put onto keyboard what your trying to say and to say it in the correct tone.

CS-John B

[slice of heaven]

Ditto what John B said Johnno.Your posts raised points which led to a good discussion and people are more informed because of that.

[johnno]

Hi,John and Slice,
No Problems.Thanks for your reply.
Regards.John