Another Noob needs help please!

[prova]

Hi guys, received my Skywatcher 8" Newt on EQ stand earlier today and put it together this evening, overall I'm very happy and look forward to many enjoyable nights with it but before you go on and say "shouldn't this be in the equipment thread" .. I have yet another noob question ..

Basically I want to know what I'm looking at which is to me (in the ACT) the brightest star out there, a friend say's it's Jupiter but I don't think so because when I pointed my scope at it only an hour or so ago I see two smaller stars to the left then the main one and then one to the right, to be honest if it was any planet I'm sure my scope would make out much more detail straight off the bat .. this object is still quite small looking through my scope but bigger than your usual star .. any ideas?

Thanks!

[erick]

Sound like you are describing Jupiter and its moons to me. Was the "bright star" clearly a bright disc at high magnification, rather than a pinpoint of light?

If you don't have any planetarium software, fire this up:-

http://www.skyviewcafe.com/skyview.php

and see if that helps. If you click on the "Moons/GRS" tab, it shows you where the moons are.

An hour ago, Europa was in transit in front of Jupiter so you would only see the other three moons.

Yes, you should see a bit of surface detail on Jupiter with your 8" scope. Is it well collimated?

In fact, Europa's shadow is crossing the face of Jupiter right now? But you won't see that if you are not seeing some banding on Jupiter. I suspect some collimation of your reflector is required.

Plenty of guidance on this site, if the manual doesn't help.

Happy viewing!

[iceman]

Hi Prova, it would definitely be Jupiter. I imagine it was almost overhead at the time?

The reason you couldn't see any detail is likely because:

a) The scope is not properly collimated. Most scopes will require collimation when they come out of the box. Now that you're a newtonian owner, it's a skill you MUST learn. Don't be afraid of it, read plenty of resources, and get help from other amateurs that live near you (astro socieities?)

b) The scope is not properly cooled. When the mirror is much warmer than the ambient temperature, you get a boundary layer of air which distorts the image and blurs any fine detail.

c) The seeing was bad. Jetstream and other local and atmospheric conditions all contribute to the "seeing" - that is, the turbulence in the atmosphere. Again, this distorts and refracts the light as it's coming down through the atmopshere and blurs the image, robbing you of the chance to see any fine detail. You'll notice the image wobbling about like jelly.

d) Observing is a skill. and like any skill, it takes practise to master. On Tuesday night, I showed a member of the public Jupiter through my 12" newt. I can tell you it was properly collimated, but there were temperature issues and the seeing was not good either. However when looking at Jupiter, I could still make out the main belts and some finer detail in the equatorial regions. All he could see was a white blob.
It takes practise to know what to look for and to know what you're looking at. More experience at the scope, under better and different conditions, improves your skill as an observer and you can start to see things that you couldn't when you first started.

I hope that helps.

btw, I'll move this to observing forum.

[prova]

thanks for the reply guys and the great link!

from what you guys are describing it definitely is Jupiter but in that case I am nowhere near seeing the red dot, or any cloud formation what-so-ever, with my 10x eyepiece that came with the kit i can see the moons as if they we're stars to the naked eye looking straight up and Jupiter itself is small .. very small compared to what I believe I should be seeing, a slightly bigger blob of light compared to the moons which again a specs

collimation may be an issue as you guys stated because when I use the 9x50 viewfinder and for instance put the crosshair dead on the moon i still can't see the moon through the scope

any further ideas are welcome and should I be looking at a collumating tool?

thanks guys!

[niko]

Hi prova,

not much more than a newbie myself but here's my two cents worth...

We recently got help to collimate our scope (an 8" dob) and even under the full moon conditions of recent days(nights) Jupiter's details were much more obvious than with the previously uncollimated scope. Collimation is the alignment of the primary and secondary mirrors.

The issue you describe re the finderscope is one of alignment not collimation. You need to align the finderscope and the telescope. This is best done in daylight and then will give you time to allow the scope the "cool" - reach the same ambient temp as the air around it - before you begin viewing.

The finderscope should have some screws/knobs on the bracket. You use these to zero the finderscope and the telescope onto the same object. It's the same principle that a rifle scope uses - yopu have to align it and the barrel so they point at the same thing (sorry for the gun analogy but I'm struggling fort words to describe it clearly).

Lastly, don't get tempted to expect the same level of seeing through your telescope that some of the pictures here suggest and as iceman says, "seeing" is a skill that you get better at with time and practice.

Also, if you've been observing Jupiter with the moon around it's probably been interferring a bit - you need dark sky to get the best results.

Good luck and have fun

niko

PS - we bought a cheshire collimation tool for about $50 after advice that it was more versitile than a laser one (tho I can see us getting one of those too in the not-to-distant future!)

[DJVege]

Hi Prova, I'm a n00b too, but I'll see if I can help a bit.

The EP (eye piece) you got with your scope...do you mean 10mm?? If so, you're at around 100X, magnification. To view Jupiter in more detail, you'll need a barlow lens or a higher magnification EP. I'd suggest a barlow first. With a 2X barlow, you'll effectively have a 10mm and a 5mm EP, giving you 100 and 200X magnification.

Your viewfinder issue has nothing to do with collimation. To align your finder with your scope:

1) Get the moon (or some easy object on land) in view through your scope first
2) Then align the finder to point at the moon.

Now they'll be aligned, and will make it easier to find objects.

Take a look at this site! www.andysshotglass.com (http://www.andysshotglass.com). It helped me a lot. Click on the articles tab, and have a read/listen of the "Collimation" article.

It will explain it very clearly.

Good luck!

LoL, you beat me Niko.

[prova]

thanks djvege, ill align the finderscope tonight ..

the kit comes with 10x & 25x eyepieces and I was advised that down the track new eyepieces are a must but even with what I have I was told should make out a certain level of cloud detail on Jupiter straight out of the box which is what i was hoping for but at the moment neither myself or my friend (who has a bit of an astronomy background) can't even tell if that Jupiter or not, that's how small and undefined the image is ..

Does that sound right!?

[rmcpb]

If you align your findersope to make finding things easier AND collimate your scope you should be able to see the major cloud bands using your 10mm eyepiece on a clear and steady night. As Mike said you will need to collimate, allow your scope to cool to ambient (leave it outside for an hour before using it) and practice observing which means looking at the object for more than a few seconds. The seeing can vary greatly and you will see details coming and going on many nights, its only on those really rare nights that you will see a steady view. As for upping your power, I would advise against it, I mainly use my 9.7mm lense for planets and only go higher if the seeing can support it and with this lense I can see quite a lot of detail on Jupiter. Before buying any more lenses it would be worth you getting a cheshire eyepiece and a laser collimator to allow accurate collimation to get the most out of your present gear.

Most important of all is to hug your dob a lot and get to know it and practice observing.

Cheers

[niko]

A quick comment on lenses....

we have a 32mm (a recent purchase), a 25mm, a 10mm and a 6.5mm. I agree with rmcpb, I mainly use the 10mm for planets/moon. It's only on the rare occasion that the 6.5mm gives a really steady view.

Stick with what you have for the moment and don't get too dispondent. Get the finderscope aligned as this will alleviate your first frustration - finding things easily. Maybe enlist the help of a local to collimate and just stick with it. The weather's been crappy lately. Watch the moons move around Jupiter, maybe hunt for the jewel box (just near the southern cross).

There's heaps out there to see and enjoy as long as you keep your expectations in check

[prova]

thanks rmcpb, that's really what I want to do is get a really good feel of my current equipment which is still pretty good for a first-timer and once I know how to use what I have well, I will look at upgrades, eyepieces, etc

Either way you answered what I wanted to know which is that I should see way more of Jupiter (and other objects) than I currently am and as previously mentioned I can't even tell if it's Jupiter or not!!

I have pretty much spent my budget on the gear I have which was just under 1k for the kit so in saying that is there a particular collimator that is simply a must have now for my current issue and for future maintenance ..

and btw it's a newt and on EQ mount, no dobby here :lol:

[DJVege]

10mm and 25mm...not 10X.:) Bit different meaning. :P

Like Rob said, once you're collimated and aligned, you should be fine. The better your collimation, the better your viewing. Check out that article on collimation on andysshotglass.

G'luck!

[prova]

hehe 10mm and 25mm, you're right!

admin - if I use 10x or 25x again, please ban me :lol:

[DJVege]

LOL! I only wrote that because I was confused when I first started with magnification and how EPs were labelled.