The world is stuffed....

[acropolite]

Something to ponder....Around 20 years ago a friend who was a botanist had basically given up on his occupation, because, in his words "the world is stuffed". I laughed at him at the time but now I see unprecedented greed, particularly on the part of business, aided and abbetted by governments and some parts of the media and I can't help agreeing with him. We see the Japanese about to recommence whaling, drought in places that have never experienced those conditions before and strong indications that global warming is a more serious and imminent problem than first anticipated. Yet our governments do nothing and scientists are (mostly) content to observe and study. So what are your thoughts; is the world stuffed and will mans greed ultimately be the end of us all??

[iceman]

Multiple choice? Cool! Are you sure it's meant to be multiple choice? :)

I'll answer with my real thoughts when I have more time. Good discussion though.

[ving]

I feel the problem with our scientific research is that it continually requires funding... and funds are hard to come by. Govt wont sink cash into something that doesnt benefit them and big business would if they can name it after them (and they get lots of money out of it)
"the McDonalds obesity diminishing pill"

as for the state of the planet, well it will always be on a downwards slide, its just a matter of how fast it slides. industry will continue to produce (and pollute) as long as theres a demand (and there will always be a demand). We will continue to log forests, desertification will continue unimpeded, the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer...

and on that note... wouldnt it be great if every car manufactured came out with 25 airbags, ABS, traction control, little cameras in the rear so you can see what you are reversing over, top notch security systems, GPS and other safety aids?
Why is it that the only people who are allowed to be safe on the road are those with alot of money while the rest of us "suffer" in old non-roadworthy bombs (worst case scenario) or base model new cars that if you are lucky might have an airbag for the driver.

it seems its only the rich who can afford to be safe.

we need a "star trek" ecconomy now.

:)

[ballaratdragons]

Mars sounds pretty cool to me, so I voted for it!

On a recent documentary on discovery channel they said that the worlds reserves are almost used up. They said Minerals will be gobbled up world-wide soon and no alternatives are being researched.

Chromium is almost gone already. Africa is the worlds largest supplier of chromium and they have dug almost all of it out of the ground.

Once we have used up all the minerals, we can't go to another planet and buy some more. We only have what is here.

Bit of a doom and gloom thread but it is good to jog people out of complacency sometimes and make everyone aware that we are using up our Earth too fast. Well done Phil.

[atalas]

Ah but If we had stella travel we could go and plunder other planets! why stop with
Earth ?



Louie :evil:

[ballaratdragons]

Yep! Knowing what mankind is like, we'll just go and screw up another planet as well.

[ving]

now if we could stop pollies from worrying about votes and big busniess' to stop worrying about filling thier pockets we could get scientists research this so we can conquer the universe :P

[silvinator]

This is a great topic Phil. It has been something I've been pondering over recently and has been bothering me. I voted for Mars as well, though, I doubt living there would be any better than Earth.
I saw a doco last week about people that live on 1 dollar a day and why they have been forced to live that way. The focus was on the textiles industry. Basically, people in countries like Mali, Cambodia and Peru (I believe, or it may it have been Chile) that grow cotton, make garments or grow alpacas etc, are forced into poverty because they cannot compete with the world markets in the textiles industry. The main argument for this was because the richer nations (i.e the US) subsidise their own farmers that grow the same materials, but these poorer nations do not have the money to do the same for their own farmers. They are also competing against cheap labour nations like China, as opposed to Cambodia, who advocate fairer workplace practices, which means their textiles cost a little more and are unable to compete fairly.
So yes, the world is stuffed. And I also believe that greed is definitely a driving force on this Earth of ours and that it will be to our demise. Not just in the textiles industry but in all aspects of human growth. Let's face it, our resources and commodities are being rapidly consumed, there is a grossly uneven distribution of wealth, and we have not even begun to tap into the realm of renewable energy sources.
Ken, you're right, this is a gloomy thread but it has to be discussed. Sadly, we cannot bury our heads in the sand forever.

[acropolite]

One problem I see is the worlds obsession with growth, as we all know growth has exponential results, just look at the worlds population. The more growth we have the more strain on our resources. :mad2:

[atalas]

No Silvie, but we will be buried in the end.

Louie:mad2:

[Starkler]

The decline of the earths ecosystems can only accelerate when previously poor countries, such as China are becomming more affluent and demand for energy and western style consumption skyrockets.

I recall a statement by Dr David Suzuki that the earth could only sustainably support about 200 million people living in the style of Americans.

[Jonathan]

I think there's a few years left in this planet, but some serious efforts need to be made to make it last. I remember being told many times in the late 80's that there's only 20 years of oil left in the world, what a load of rubbish! I think the world is over populated, and with many developing countries in Asia and Africa it will really stretch the resources of the planet and can only add to pollution levels.

I don't think the slight changes in our weather patterns are a huge concern. I think a lot of the panic is because we only have accurate records that go back a hundred years or so to campare todays weather with. I think if we had records that went for a few thousand years it would show that weather patterns change a lot more than we think.


I was lucky enough to go for a tour on a Collins class submarine last week. I think one of them surfacing next to a whaling boat would scare them out of Australian waters pretty quickly! :eyepop:

[slice of heaven]

I cant vote for any of those options.
Maybe future generations will overcome the problems WE have created, or they'll adapt,we wont.
Jumping ship is a defeatists attitude.The worlds future is not in good hands when 60% have voted that way.
If we cant look after our homeworld what right do we have to rape and pillage other planets?
We choose to live in a democratic society and we choose the governments that rule us. Hands up anyone that would vote for a government that would restrict the type of lifestyle we have chosen to live. Thats whats needed to turn the trend around.

There's no passing the buck on this one, WE , as individuals have created this scenerio. WE use the ever depleting resources that those 'greedy' companies are using up. Those companies are also dictated by what WE will pay for the goods.

[ving]

we arent any better than the rest of the world. In the Kyoto Protocol when other countries agreed to decrease greenhouse emmitions, australia agreeed not to increase them at a high rate, or to decrease out increase, or however you want to put it...
which ever way you look at it we are still increasing greenhouse emitions while everyone else is decreasing them.:confuse3:

[Jonathan]

You're right Ving, Australia should be no exception. But in the big scheme of things Australia's population is 20 million out of about 7 billion (?) and thats a very small percentage. I think it's mostly the Northern hemisphere countries that need to clean up their act. It would be interesting to see some figures on who's creating all the pollution.

[slice of heaven]

The US creates nearly 25% of all CO2 emissions.
They have extremely cheap energy prices. The US government is not prepared to jack the prices up to offset the cost of reducing emissions.
There lies Australias stance on the matter. They dont, We wont.
Australia is still the worlds greatest exporter of coal as well.
Though Australia is adding to its list of natural and renewable sources of energy its not reducing its usage of fossil fuel, as Ving stated.
We cant pass the buck Jonathon, we contribute to the global warming as well, whatever our contribution.

[ving]

I think youd be suprised...

we are the 4th highest per capita in emittions behind canada, USA and Luxembourg

in 1998 our emittions increase was 20% over 1990, while USA's increase was less than 10% and canadas was less than 5%. Luxembourg had actually decreased it emitions from 1990 to 1990 by about 22%. now theres something to aime for huh! :)

[mick pinner]

call me defeatest if you like but somewhere along the line the human race reached the point of no return and that was long ago, defeatest, no realist.

[fringe_dweller]

We love our cars (and air conditioners) more than life! (at least here in Oz) try taking cars of aussies - there would be a revolution!! "we are sorry citizens - but heres your pushbike"
Due to the famous 'tyranny of distance' that we have in Oz - a problem that not many developed countries face - so i think we are in a unique situation than most countries. I lived in the UK for a few years a while back and I really liked the public transport there tubes ect. But then everything is so close together, everyone walks to the pub ect like most of europe i guess. :) what makes me laugh is when I was young, (here we go!) hardly any kids had cars - now it *seems* to me every 15 year old gets a *NEW* BMW for their 16th birthday!!?? :driving:well maybe thats going a bit far heheh but cars were a huge luxury when I was a lad for sure - we just got old death trap HR's EJ's ect and for a lot more than a similar condition old bomb costs now. But every house has seven cars now it seems - one for each day of the week. Also what me makes me laugh is we famously moved away from big fuel guzzling 'yank tanks' type designs and now they are back in the guise of 4 wheel drives! Everyone wants to drive a humvee these days, like Arnie.
I could go on - of course - but please can I have a new voting option and go for one of those planets you see in movies were they are populated by Amazonian babes only? :) (dont tell the missus i said that!!)
Cheers
Fringey

[acropolite]

Slice wrote
My own sister says that forestry in Tasmania has to continue. Why... we need the jobs, never mind that it's unsustainable, that we are poisoning our wildlife and waterways as well as destroying our lungs with continual pollution from burnoffs for months at a time. How does she know this.... because the media tells her so; the same media is largely responsible for how most of the population vote, so while some of us do choose the government most are blissfully unaware thet they have been coerced...

[iceman]

I think the "let's move to mars" is more of a joke, but I do believe what we've done to the Earth is shocking and I don't know how we can recover.

The Earth took 5 billion years to get to this point. Man has been here (in its current resource-hungry capacity) for a few hundred years, and look what we've done. Imagine the next 200-300 years!? It's quite inconceivable for me to imagine what we're leaving for the next generations. Until we start pushing for the use of reusable energy (the sun, wind etc) then we're just pushing ourselves further towards self-destruction.

It's quite sad really, what man has done. Destroy wildlife, nature, other species. I'm sure in a way it's just natural evolution - the top of the food chain looks after himself.

But only 20,000 years ago we were not much more than apes. What form is evolution going to take us in the next 1,000 years, if we've still got an Earth to call home?

[fringe_dweller]

:earth: Personally I blame all the cows and sheep in NZ for the greenhouse effect - heheh :whistle: only joking! saw that movie recently - the 'day after tomorrow' or something or rather (yes i am the last person in the universe to see it i know) i dont like the look of those supercells tooo much!
Fringey:confuse3:

[fringe_dweller]

But it must be said the earth has been poisonous to life more often than not! nature is pretty good at trashing planets as well! One big series of eruptions or one super volcano can spew more crap into the atmosphere than we ever have so far! Its like in the movie 28 days - earth would just returning to normal!
Fringey

[beren]

Check this environmental tragedy ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/678898.stm

http://enrin.grida.no/aral/aralsea/english/arsea/arsea.htm

[iceman]

Just terrible Stuart.. Didn't Saddam Hussein do a similar thing in the swamp lands of Iraq? The "rebels" used them as hideouts, so Saddam poisened the whole area and killed off everything, so now it's just desert.

[trufflehunter]

The Aral Sea is a tragedy on two levels. Firstly it's a tragedy due its very existence. Secondly it's a tragedy because so few people are aware of it.

...thirdly, it's a tragedy because of the complete and exasperating complacency it engenders.

I have to stop here. Sorry. Please don't get me started.

[h0ughy]

Since we are so doomed we should sell everything we have , buy the buggest (NZ for biggest) telescope we can and move to the mountains, and live out the rest of our existance doing the thing we really like
:D
mind you I don't know how much I will get for the wife and kids:P :whistle:

[wavelandscott]

I have enjoyed reading these posts from my well lit, electrically heated house as I wear my baby sealskin slippers, drink my GMO sweetened soft drink and smoke my thirld world grown/harvested and wrapped by exploited labour cigar...while my wife drives one of our luxary 4 wheel drives .5 km to get a McD take away meal for my obese children...remind me to have one of my exploited household domestic staff water my yard before I have them deported before I have to pay them (below award level wage of course)...

What fun...

Seriously though, in grad school I did a fair amount of work on climate change and the impact on agricultural production...there is a lot of conflicting data on the topic in particular as to whether or not things are getting warmer and if so is it a bad thing...I won't be drawn into an arguement on that subject...most of the models I've seen showed a warming and a shifting in arable areas...some people who used to be wet get dry and some people who are dry/cold get wet and warm...total food production didn't seem to change much but fruit trees become very popular in Canada!...

My 2 cents...climate change is pretty constant through the history of the planet...again there is lots of arguement on if the speed of change is growing...is it man made or natural???

I will say that I don't think the "Malthusian's" are correct we are not doomed...and no, I will not eat soylent green (it is made from people)...so in my opinion the sky is not falling yet...

I don't know how or why but, I think that human kind will find a way to survive...our monkey brains have shown that we are a resilient and inventive (destructive to) lot and I think whether through serendipity or hard work that things will work out okay in the end...call me pollyanna but, that is what I beleive...

Sounds like my wife is back with my Supersize meal...better go, I've got to eat some beef and throw away some paper packaging

[gaa_ian]

Well I voted for ...It will get better ...why ?
Over the last 20 yrs I've have seen a big shift in awareness.
I was personally involved in the Franklin & Wet tropics campaigns.
Both great victories & turning points in public awareness.
I now work for a large multinational corporation (unthinkable to me 20trs ago !) I see attitudes changing in the corporate world too.
Environment Health & Safety is a core value for the company I work for (a company with 80,000 employees worldwide)
Yes, many things are still wrong, but we have come a long way since the 80's

[janoskiss]

The main (environmental) problem is that we use a lot of energy to sustain our way of life (and to keep producing more people who will do likewise). We need to become conscious of the impact of our way of life on the rest of our world, e.g., turning on the heater out of habit; driving big heavy vehicles; using the dryer instead of the clothesline; and so on. I'm guilty...

It looks like I might have a decent income soon, so I'm going to switch to Green Power (even though it's gonna remain a bit of a joke until some investors with a lot of $$ decide to take it seriously).

[ballaratdragons]

Do you realise Henry Ford is the biggest contributor to the mess we live in now.

He invented the production line and helped do away with the village cobbler, village blacksmith, village baker etc, etc.

I think the 'Amish' have it right! I would like to live that way.

[jjjnettie]

David Suzuki said it in a nutshell. Consumerism will be the end of us all. Hardly anyone in the developed world wants to go back to the bad old days of " Doing it Yourself "
We want it all, and we want it now.
We hop in the car to drive 1/4 a km up to the shops when a brisk walk would be best for our health. We wear clothes made from synthetic fibres when we all know that cotton/wool is better as well as renewable . We eat food that is so processed that it needs added vitamins and minerals to make it nutritious. We can't be bothered to clean dirty nappies, so we make the poor kid wear a plastic one, that won't break down biologically, till that little kids great great grand kids are born. We use solvents and cleansers instead of good old elbow grease.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I've not ever done the same things. The convenience of all the products on the supermarket shelf is a boon to everyone. But is the ecological cost of it worth this convenience?
It is my belief that consumerism won't slow down, it will come to a grinding halt the day we use up all the earths resources.
It is our responsibility to teach our children/grand kids, how to do it for themselves. Little things like learning to sew, cook and grow veges, even how grow and kill your own meat, basic building skills etc etc because the day will come when it will be those that have these basic skills that will survive.
As was said before in this thread, The Amish have the right idea, when the sh*t hits the fan, it won't make any difference to them.
A couple of good books to read on the subject of the end of the world, are-:
" Stark " and " This Other Eden " both by Ben Elton. Wickedly funny, and highly relevant.

[acropolite]

gaa ian wrote You're right there has been an increase in awareness but there hasn't been a corresponding increase in action. I would have thought that 20+ years down the track we would be starting to do something to address problems that could be contributing to climate change rather than just being aware and further studying the effects... I see more trees being chopped down, more pollution, more corruption, at least in my state, perhaps it's different in the rest of Australia...

[slice of heaven]

I hope the Amish let you keep your dob BD, but upgrading to goto would be out of the question.
At least there's some honest people here that admit their responsible.
Blaming previous generations is a cop out.
Awareness is growing, especially in kids.We dont have a recycling bin in our rubbish collection yet but due to pressure from the kids awareness of the problems being created , they've 'demanded' we recycle the plastic,glass and cardboard etc here at home. That has to be a step in the right direction for their future if their concerned enough to take some action.

[ving]

comes down to individuals tho slice. most kids'll still throw thier trash on the ground. and Cheryl and I have problems convincing Bec that we should recycle too :)

It'll all work when the majority are interested. But humans are by nature lazy creatures :P

[slice of heaven]

So true Ving,So true

[ving]

i know... so wise for one so young :P

[Brendan]

this is a deeply phylisophical question, I would have to say unless we as a species change our behviour, we will go the way of the dinosaurs but leave the planet in a lot worse shape.

The truly scary thought is as resources become scarcer and population numbers swell, will we suffer the same fate as those animals who we consider lesser species i.e. Mice will attack each other if over croweded.

I think the ultimate solution is to combine strategies of planetary settelment and increase in resource reuse.

Brendan

[ving]

there are probably a few people out there that would eat another of thier kind. I'd say we'd be safe from vegetarians tho :P
I think something will happen before we get to the stage of eating eachother brendan. we will either figure out food shortage problems or kill each other in war first...

[Mark Elkington]

Did somebody say "soapbox"? :-)


It’s Not Easy Being Green

It turns out the frog was right, although he wasn’t singing about the environment.

The war on plastic shopping bags is another rearrangement of the deck chairs. The bags issue at least impacts at a personal, everyday level. It even costs us a few dollars. But disposable shopping bags account for just over one percent of landfill. The reusable alternatives amount to a polypropylene rug under which to sweep a greater problem: the packaging of the items inside them. Relaxing in the green glow of these bags are consumers who are high-maintenance but think they’re low maintenance (to misappropriate a phrase).

Shrink-wrap over everything we buy is one thing. I recently joined with friends on a four-wheel drive weekend: kids, tents, bacon and eggs. And 100 litres of nonrenewable fossil fuel per vehicle, which we converted into about 300kg of greenhouse gas. I’m not picking on recreational vehicles particularly. Your return flight to Melbourne for the weekend used a similar amount of fuel per head. Every time you put on the air con rather than a jumper you become part of the problem. In your 30 square eveless heated towel-rail downlight-constellation ducted-air McMansion.

Take a drive (no, a bus) to the 2600 megawatt Bayswater Power Station, and boggle at the mountain of coal conveyor-fed direct from mine to furnace. Every time you flick a switch another kilogram of carbon goes up into the atmosphere.

There’s a disconnect between our lifestyle and its consequences. Assume for the moment that they’re right: the 97% of scientists who say that global warming heading towards catastrophic climate change is real, and greenhouse gas emissions from burning coal, oil, and gas are the primary cause. Decades hence our children’s children, living with this, will incredulously ask their grandparents, What were you thinking…? The epithet "future eaters" would be apt.

Greenhouse gases (primarily carbon dioxide) are invisible and easy to ignore. Smog from burning fossil fuel is obvious, alarming, and political. It gets attention. Now it’s been discovered that this form of visible pollution blocks sunlight and causes “global dimming”, i.e. less warming. Ironically, by fixing only the symptom, we’re letting off a handbrake on warming. Since the 70s oil shock, fossil fuel consumption has increased globally by 73%. Global reserves of oil, coal and gas are estimated in decades. The environment will run out before they do.

Cheap petrol is a sacred staple along with bread and milk. Educating people to act responsibly and sacrificially largely doesn’t work. User pays does. Petrol in Europe is about AU$1.70 a litre. In the US it’s a bit over AU$0.70. It’s no surprise then that North Americans consume 5 times more energy per capita than the global average. Environmentally the United States is the leading rogue state. Australia isn't far behind at nearly 70% of their levels.

Bob Carr talks green but capitulates to coal and private transport. The Howard government won’t ratify Koyoto because it’s bad for business. Bush is Big Oil. (But who elected them.) China and India are now rapidly industrialising, with few of the eco-restraints it’s taken the West a couple of centuries to begin to face up to.

Professor James Lovelock, author of the Gaia hypothesis and environmental icon, is now advocating an interim widespread switch to nuclear power. He says this is the only way to prevent crossing an irreversible climatic “tipping point”. Alternative renewable energy sources just won’t be ready in time. He’s now at loggerheads which much of the green movement.

Doomsday prophets have a bad track record. But the past is not always the key to the future.

© 2005 Mark Elkington (Sydney, Australia)

From: http://www.users.on.net/~elkos/

[ballaratdragons]

They say that 'Man' is the superior being on this planet.

Do apes and snakes and birds and frogs bomb each other, pollute the sky and waterways, make plastic bags or dump oil. No!

Also, I am fed up hearing people complain about Earthquakes demolishing their homes and yet they build or rebuild on Fault Lines. There is a new estate in California built on the San Andreas Fault called the 'Fault Line Estate'!!!!! Apparently it is 'Trendy' to build there.

Man, in general, is greedy and 'I want it my way and I want it NOW!' Many places on Earth were not meant to be inhabited. Us Aussies aren't much different. Visit the site of the Ash Wednesday bushfires and see how many people rebuilt wooden houses surrounded by trees. Duh!

Even though we humans discover medical breakthroughs, build infrastructures, aim to better our lives, we are not a bright bunch. We can't see the forest for the trees. We really haven't learnt from our past.

I don't know what the answer is, and I don't know if the majority would accept major change. I am guilty. I won't part with my car, telescope, TV, DVD, etc. but there must be a way of having our treasures and not destroy our Planet as well.

I'm waffling!

[ving]

I happen to know for certain that birds do. :help3:

[acropolite]

Ken said

ving said

Birds do it to survive and don't use nuclear bombs, napalm etc....

[cometcatcher]

No but I bet they would if they could! They just haven't figured out how to yet! I've seen one too many animal programs to know they can be just as violent as us.

If we continue in or present direction yes we're doomed. Ah well we may as well do it and make big boom (as they say in mythbusters). If not us it will be some super intelligent roach in 1 million years time that presses the big red button with it's hairy legs. :scared:

Help save the world. Everyone plant a tree.

[Mick]

I'm with you Kevin. We are animals but we can't act like amimals but we do :)
I'm of to see some real animals now with my boy "Madagascar" Funny how we make movies about animals that act like us. I may just plant a tree as well.

[Sausageman]

You guys are all missing the problem.
The problem is caused by the short terms in politics.
The Pollies are only interested in the next 3 or 4 years, so they can get re-elected. None of them are interested in the long term solutions to the Planet as a whole. It doesn't matter which Country we talk about, they are all the same. Power and money is the driving force.
They don't give a s**t about the future. They are only interested in the now and how much money they can get.
Let's look at the fuel prices...
They dominate the Worlds economy now. not our Govt's. In the future Multi-national companies will control everything, as long as people buy shares, (the rich of course),
Governments will become in-effective,
Lets not forget that Australia was supposed to be 80% self sufficient in oil production back in the 70's. So why are we paying World prices now?
If polititions keep up this attitude, they will kill us all.
We won't need an asteroid.
Greed will do it it.

Mike.

[acropolite]

Well said Mike, one of the problems is that we can all plant a tree as Mick suggests, but at least here in Tasmania, logging interests will cut down far more than we plant (many times more) and governments are making the average joe act more responsibly whilst at the same time letting (some) big business get away with unsustainable practices. Our Tasmanian government has spent 1.5 million of Taxpayers money on a spin doctoring campaign promoting a pulp mill (PRIVATE) which will use more power, more water and more of our valuable forests. The company proposing the pulp mill is the very same company that are taking Bob Brown and many others to court because they have had the courage to stand up and protest. All this at a time when we are in the midst of the longest drought in history, our water (hydro) reserves are so low that we may face power restrictions. :tasdevil:

[cometcatcher]

Yeah I know but it's worth a try!

I can see the future of the planet as one big parking lot.

Can't remember which channel I saw it on ( I have too many) but they showed satellite pictures from space of the change in greenery in just 30 years. Was astounding. Welcome to the new Venus.

[ving]

yup,mike, thats it.... votes.
:/

[MiG]

"You guys are all missing the problem.
The problem is caused by the short terms in politics.
The Pollies are only interested in the next 3 or 4 years, so they can get re-elected. None of them are interested in the long term solutions to the Planet as a whole."

No way. The voters are the problem. Long term politics is useless if you never get into a position to enforce it.


"They say that 'Man' is the superior being on this planet.
Do apes and snakes and birds and frogs bomb each other, pollute the sky and waterways, make plastic bags or dump oil. No!"

As far animals not doing all these awful things. Well, they are just too dumb. We marvel at a cat that figures out that the humans control the warm air coming out of the heating vent. Yet when you think about it, that would be an incredibly stupid human if that was all they could understand . Pretty much all animals know is how to eat and reproduce. Besides there are plenty of cases of animals living beyond their means by wrecking their environment. Also, what is your explanation for cats and dogs maiming or killing other cats and dogs? This is not for survival. Actually that brings up another point about cats. They kill birds, mice and other wildlife for fun.
You can say that humans as a whole aren't that wise, but you certainly can't deny that we are orders of magnitude more intelligent than the animals. The fact we are so intelligent is the reason we are such a danger to the planet. We are powerful and we introduce sudden changes. Our bodies and the planet have no time to adapt and even out these sudden events.

[ving]

dolpnins do this all the time too. they "play tennis" with other marine life belting them around just for fun them leave them when they stop moving...

[cometcatcher]

The ABC showed a program on apes a few months back where they murdered each other. Why? Some kind of complex social reason from memory.

With more intelligence comes more power and seemingly more destruction on a grander scale.

It makes me wonder if any alien race can survive the technology hurdle. In the universe perhaps it is the norm for the dominant race of the planet to grow smart and then self destruct long before they get the chance to travel to the stars?

[MiG]

That's an interesting idea. I don't see why our lack of wisdom and penchant for destruction should be such a unique thing in the universe, so it's quite possible.

[cometcatcher]

Perhaps that's a contributing factor why SETI has found nobody home. Most of them are cinders. That's a horrible thought. I hope it's not true.