“The Great Global Warming Swindle” is itself a Fraud and a Swindle

[avandonk]

If you want the scientific information that debunks this "documentary" soon to be shown on an ABC near you.

See here
http://www.durangobill.com/Swindle_Swindle.html

It gives all references etc so you can make up your own mind.

I personally think that this "documentary" is almost tabloid television but just with more than the usual lies it also includes all out fraud!

Bert

[Argonavis]

"usual lies it also includes all out fraud" sounds like a well informed and considered view. Would you care to rebut it point by point, or would you prefer the bold sweeping assertion?

I don't think anyone would say that this documentary is anything but polemical:
(http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=CZ434669U&news_headline=global_warming_is_lie s_claims_documentary)

but this seems to be part of the landscape of hysteria that surrounds this issue - like AlGore's "documentary" is not full of lies and fraud?

http://home.earthlink.net/~ponderthemaunderg/index.html

There is so much misinformation in this political puff piece by Al Gore that there is not enought space here to address it.

like some others who use the cloak of science to push a political agenda..
http://www.quebecoislibre.org/001014-11.htm
http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

and speaking of making up your own mind, Bert would you care to review
http://members.iinet.net.au/~glrmc/new_page_1.htm
http://mysite.verizon.net/mhieb/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
and then maybe reconsider your certainties.

[avandonk]

With regard to
http://members.iinet.net.au/~glrmc/new_page_1.htm

I do not have the time to waste on scientifically uneducated journalists making unsubstantiated assertions. Most of that list is right wing think tanks or journos with the correct attitude. Nothing is peer reviewed.

As for the author of this
http://mysite.verizon.net/mhieb/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
Some quick info
Fred Singer. Despite the caption on the programme, Singer has retired from the University of Virginia and has not had a single article accepted for any peer-reviewed scientific journal for 20 years. His main work has been as a hired gun for business interests to undermine scientific research on environmental and health matters. Before turning to climate change denial he has argued that CFCs do not cause ozone depletion and second hand smoke does not cause cancer (more… ). In 1990 he founded “The Science and Environment Policy Project”, which aggressively contradicts climate science and has received direct funding from Exxon, Shell, Unocal and ARCO. Exxon is also among the funders ($20,000 in 1998 and 2000)

Bert

This so called documentary is just more of the same.

[OneOfOne]

Like a lot of these types of issues, each side of the argument has their own barrow to push. The oil companies and nuclear proponents say we have heaps of oil and nuclear is a clean alternative etc.

The "greenies" would have everyone revert to riding horses to work, living on 5 acres and be self sufficient in food and energy...how big would the urban sprawl be then.

I think the "truth" lies somewhere between the two. I guess it is up to everyone to try to find "their truth" from the information available. Even if we had no global warming issue and enough oil to last a hundred centuries, we should still never waste energy. If we all try to do our bit to save energy and resources, we will all be at least doing something for the environment, regardless of wether the issues are true or not.

[Ric]

I live on 5 acres, practice permaculture and hoping to go full solar and off the grid one day.
The fresh air and dark skies are wonderful. :thumbsup:

Haven't got a horse though. :)

If people spread out a bit and stopped living on top of each other they all might be a bit less uptight and stressed.

Cheers

[matt]

That all sounds very fair, Ric:thumbsup:

[joe_smith]

Of cause pumping all that C02 into the air wont do any damage to the earth fossil fuels are 100% safe for the earth. We can increasing our CO2 out put even more look at Venus its only that hot because its near the sun CO2 has nothing to do with it. Just like smokes are 100% safe to smoke and asbestos is so safe you could eat it......................

Global warming cannot be true because the people backed by oil/coal company's say its safe and its a lie. They still have billions of $$$$$ still to be made from it every day so it must be OK - Its a known fact a lot of scientists work for a wage and say stuff to keep their jobs and not stuff that is 100% true.

We have to be doing some damage to the earth with all the CO2 we are pumping into the air, because its not natural for the earth. In a world without humans the air would be a lot different, the only problem is if its real (which I for one do) it will be to late we don't have to worry because it will not happen in our life time but what about in 200 years from now. :earth:

[xelasnave]

Lets look on the bright side ... er
alex

[casstony]

I really miss the ideological, ratbag uni students who counterbalanced the powerful conservatives on important issues of the day. Where are the mass protests and arrests of years gone by? Is the current batch not made of the right stuff? Are they too busy working to pay their way through uni? Have they turned conservative?

[ballaratdragons]

I've got the Horse. :lol:

Yeah, rural living is bliss!

[avandonk]

Here is one glaring example from the doco.

The first picture is from the doco and I quote
“Most of the rise in temperature occurred before 1940.”

The second is the corresponding real temperature variation.

Looks like a good match does it not.

Bert

[avandonk]

But wait there is more. Here is the full real temperature graph with all axes clearly labeled.

They have conveniently omitted the last twenty years as it did not suit their premise or motives.


Bert

[Omaroo]

I seriously doubt that anyone here on this forum will have the necessary political connections, education and direct interest in the topic to warrant a seriously objective opinion.

We are all mushrooms, and although we all love to have a pet theory and "educated" opinion of our own, we can only base these on what he hear (on both sides of the debate) and what those around us believe. Our experiance will always be environmentally-fed, and I doubt that any of us will ever truly know what is going on.

Therefore - just live a little everyone. :)

[avandonk]

I think that this example of fraud at worst or deception at best is very easy to understand by anyone. All I am trying to point out is that there are vast powerful interests that are trying to cloud the Global Warming issue.
We are all guilty of contributing to Global Warming and unless we all slow down our use of fossil fuels we wont have a planet left to argue over.

Bert

[Omaroo]

I'm sure that this is a fact, and probably the only one on this issue that we'll know for sure.

[KG8]

Well there not getting MY car, or MY refrigerator, or MY (insert end use of fossil fuel burning)

And that's how we all think.

[erick]

Tough problems that the world faces. The world's population is predicted to almost double again. What standard of living (including energy requirement) should this world population have? I have been told that the Chinese government have what would seem to be a most reasonable goal - that each family has a refrigerator. I understand that refrigerator ownership in rural areas is around 3%. To achieve this goal on current energy performance of refrigerators would require something like 10 additional large base-load power stations. These are huge, global issues with no quick fix.

[casstony]

But we can make a difference at election time by voting for someone interested in promoting solar energy rather than coal or uranium.

[KG8]

I just put a Sharp 80-Watt module through its paces this morning in my back yard casstony "before the clouds rolled in luckily". It pumps out around 4.5 amps at 17 volts in full sunlight. I bought it a year ago for $800 when I read about the silicone shortage and decided to dig it out and use it to recharge my batteries when away on astrocamp.

Now I don't want to spoil your concept of a renewable planet but do you have any idea how much fossil energy is used to construct a single solar panel? To make the modules you have to melt sand and extract silicone, then refine it in a massive hi-tech vessels that cost a fortune. The silver for the wiring needs to be mined by heavy equipment and refined to 99.9% pure. You need to mine bauxite and refine it into alumina, then convert the alumina to aluminium by literally melting the ore with huge amounts of electrical current.

More energy is used in these processes than the solar modules could ever hope to produce in there lifespan. Then include the fuel shipping them from Japan and you see that we only have these solar modules because oil and coal have done all the work in making them for us. They did a study, to see if you could make solar panels just on the energy produced by solar panels. It was a joke!

Take away the oil and coal and you take away nearly every "renewable" source of energy on the planet I am afraid. How do you build dams and install generators for hydro without oil and coal? How do you manufacture hi tech components and steel towers for wind generators? Even Ethanol doesn't work without oil and coal. It's all a dream I am afraid, a dream cooked up by Uni professors seeking grants and by big business seeking government subsities.

[xelasnave]

I can not say much on this issue that I have not said before.

I have taken time to look at it in a great a depth as I can.. and I get into it when I get into it as they say...

I believe, and can offer authorities central to my view, that the following although simple is the best I can make of it all.

The world is getting hotter inevitably due to a historic climate change show to occur over the ages.

Humans may or may not be contributing to the warming.

There is no way humans can stop the climate getting hotter even if they left absolutly no foot print...that is the key..we wont stop it.

Certain humans seek to say humans can control the temperature of the planet by reducing green house gas output and that because it is in theory possible that it can be managed this way.. that in the real world it will be done...nay no way... does anyone think for one moment you can stop it , let alone reduce it.. do the sums..just do the sums.

The focus and the guilt leaves the hotter future as a solvable problem....it is not.... we wont solve this problem all we can do is figure how to survive in a hotter world.. If they say the sea will come up don't count on going nuclear will prevent it...

China and India have plans for 800 coal powered stations so I believe ..every effort that the West can make is water off the ducks back.. take whatever view you like... just understand the science... whatever you want it to say.. it says its getting hotter and follows historic cycles and finally there is zip we can do...

Polution and green house gas in this context is almost a side issue..but dont think we will win... it will take a major event where billions of people die to change things and the change will only be because there are less humans not that they have changed their ways.

The human responses are to put in better power stations etc when we should be thinking of what is happening to our food production, or water, our beaches..relocation of cities if the seas are going to rise..

Any one can form a view... but don't then be manipulated by folk who see profit in the calamity..Nuclear wont help..the only way nuclear is getting a hearing is because they pretend their contribution will solve the problem... it wont..going nuclear should be determined on other issues..cost effectiveness will rule it out...we are told profit is the GOD ...desalination rides high on the back of global warming the sky is falling marketing.. getting a desalinator should be determined on other considerations..again cost effective is the way to go..these things make water very expensive.

Our nation can profit by the changes that will occur .. I hope the seas rise I will get an island out of it..great...we can see opportunities but the folk selling the power stations don't want us to realise that our greatest asset is the Sun... our Sun shines all the time on our country...solar panel handle local demand easily ..12 vlts works so much..240 is used simply for transmission.. saves money on thick wire by going 240.

Imagine these solar furnaces that are proving the Sun really works..there is all the heat you want for a boiler for the steam turbine... what a way to open Australia..towns built like those around the Snowey but these towns service a solar furnace ...you can transport electricity around the world easier than oil...

This crap we get fed makes us feel guilty and we should fall for it..well everyone is entitled to their opinion ...but go for an opinion not based on guilt and one turned to facing the long term realities of living on this wonderful but changing planet.

The bright side I see is a lot of folk have a mission and a job out of this industry that's the only way it can be... and improvements will be made..that is good...but if we are serious a major long term problem is before us do we go out to meet it or wait for it to arrive???

I don't want to talk on this issue with an election in the wind. It should not be an election issue...vested interests still control the game..the only difference these days is we can see it...can we do anything ..I doubt it..

I would prefer our election to turn on issues that bring better comfort, health and well being to our citizens..this should be the focus.

The war etc should be similar..have your dam war just take care of home first is all we ask...

Why is petrol pricing a joke.
.why do Corporate criminals get away with theft.
.why is there no Government inspectors studying the books and seeing statutory requirements are or are not being met...
Security for all our superfunds.. you dont hear from those embarrassed to tell of their saving swindled..they feel the guilt and the villian escapes.

Maybe fix the transport system rather than spend 6 billion dollars between Sydney and Melbourne on desalinators plants..

Sell us something we need..you can still get the 6 billion from building us train lines and hospitals...

So on the dark side... sit back and see how GW will take out eye off the ball leading to the election.

alex

[Muddy Diver]

My feelings exactly Alex

Over "real" time fluctuations in temperature are known to occur. In fact I saw a doco a little while ago showing a sharp rise in temperature just preceeding an ice age!! Could this be the real threat? If so our concerns are misplaced entirely as this would decimate life rather than make it less comfortable.

I don't like the way we treat our planet. Since becoming interested in AStrology and more aware of other planets environments I have become more aware of just what a jewel our planet is. But, like you, I don't believe all the hype.

On the subjects raised earlier of Solar panels, I remember that one politician on the radio stated that he had spent $30,000 on panelling his entire roof. However, the savings gained from purchasing a new, more efficient beer fridge for the garage rivalled the savings in grid power consumption over a very short time!

We think of ourselves as important just because we are the most intelligent life form to populate the planet. But this doesnt mean these environmental fluctuations will stop even if we thought we could influence them.

[casstony]

Since our energy originates from the Sun it seems like common sense to go straight to the source for our power needs. I'm confident that efficient technologies could be brought on line if there was enough political interest in the necessary research to develop them. Sticking our heads in the sand and saying there's nothing we can do seems irresponsible.

I haven't looked into the desalination technology but I think it uses vast amounts of electricity? There are glaringly obvious preferable alternatives to this.

With regard to general politics, I see the degradation of our education system as the greatest modern crime committed by the powerful against the pleb's, closely followed by the degradation of our media. The true journalist seems to be an endangered species.

[KenGee]

Have a look around the web, creationist, earth centrist and even germ theory deniers. Power and money are the usual drivers for these people but sometimes it's just because they are insane.:eyepop:

[xelasnave]

Who are you looking at???:lol: :lol: :lol:

My driver has always been hearing the sound of my own voice and even to me I sound strange:eyepop: .. but I have a good heart so all is forgiven:D .

I think if one thinks about who is saying something and who pays their way you get an idea of where they will fall;) ...and the good thing about the net you can look and find out so much info... sadly you can build a case for and exclude the case against but you would be crazy to think there is not something covered on all sides..so how good is that..past that we may have to think about the arguements for ourselves...most like prepackaged as they are well marketed.

alex:) :) :)

[xelasnave]

http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm
This site has a nice graph... is it reasonable? has the data been reviewed? I dont know... but my point you have to be very critical of everything before you...I wish I could be more so.
alex

[rumples riot]

Well I watched this doco today, via bit torrent download.

Lots of interesting data and it all conflicts, and suggests that sol is the cause of the problem, which when looking at the solar activity data does correlate with the global rise in temperature. Notable correlations is the mini ice age in which no sunspot activity was recorded for 70 years.

To be honest, not being a scientist makes it hard to truely gauge who is telling the correct side of the story. Time will tell though. Unless you are a meteorologist or have scientific training in this field I would not discount this theory as a possible cause of global warming. The CO2 increase shown in this data flows 800 years behind the rises in temperature. The heat comes first then the CO2 rises. Lots of the data is being misread by someone and I wonder who that is. Sols electromagnetic field has been highly energised this last century and it is strange that most of the temperature increase occurred before the 1940's and then it went down during the post war industrialisation for 30 years.

One interesting point is that people who disagree with the current line of thinking are accused of being in the employ of the oil companies. Maybe some would be but not all.

Food for thought.

[KG8]

yes rumples, that's how it is, even though the government itself earns the lion's share of the profits off oil with excise. Today activism is tolerated as long as you follow the politically correct line of thought. Step outside that and you are marginalized and the fingers begin to point at you.

If I look deep enough into the money trails I see all sorts of conflicting things. Like the fact that prince philip created the World Wide Fund for Nature that spawned Greenpeace, yet Phillip is married to the queen of england, who controls the house of Windsor, which owns the controlling share of Rio Tinto and has interests in half the other mining companies on the planet.

[xelasnave]

I bet with all this rain the deals have been done for both Melbourne and Sydney desalinators...
It must work like buying a new scope.. so I bet its their fault not those of us who punish ourselves that it was the lastest scope, mount or camera purchase that did it..

6 billion must get us a lot of rain..

And the rain in Queensland suggest maybe they are thinking about one..wow that would be 9 billion..floods for sure.

Money makes the world go around that nothing new ..the good side of the GW without comment as to overall success..is that folk may be a little thriftier..it was the way when I was a kid and more so in my fathers day..waste is a sin..maybe that will be addressed.. so that is good.

but it will get hot I reckon either way and people will profit.. so whats so new about that..zip
alex

[xelasnave]

Had the pleasure of seeing Mr Gore on midday TV.. good on him.. great show.
But the way he tells it GW is here now..maybe it is.

He says he is carbon nuetral because he trades off the imbalance..invests in forrests whatever...but I would still like to see some panels on the roof and some personal sacrifice to lead the others...but its all good.

He is worried about the sea wiping out cities and showed five little things we could all do to help (relieve the guilt he put there I guess whist selling the movie) and although I see thru his game some good will come ..people may do some little things..buy a light bulb..who owns that company??? well who cares ..its one of those things that will get people doing something together ..how nice is that.

Still raining ..all the rain is going down the drain.. I wonder how much energy to pump that much water thru a desalinator... there is a lot of money running down the streets right now... do desalinators add to greenhouse?

Without dealing with how..if all the ice melted all over ..how much will the sea rise??? this was avoided in rebutal to the fact the ice mass to our South is growing not shrinking???

If it did how high I wonder world over? A few places would go under or not?


alex

[xelasnave]

and what will happen to the wool industry if we wont need jumpers?
alex

[matt]

Some fair points, Alex.

I'm still a little dubious about Big Ol' Uncle Al.

Despite his repeated denials, I still think he'll eventually have another tilt at the White House and what better way than to ride on this 'Wave' of enviro-politics.

Call me cynical, if you like. But once a politician....

It's certainly given him a very prominent position from which to run. And even if it turns out he's wrong, which will be nigh on impossible to prove during our lifetimes, he still looks like he was acting in the best interests of our planet.

He has assumed a very significant position in a growing global 'consciousness'.

[xelasnave]

He does not fool me and I think he would be a fool if he was not working the angles..with a take of $46 million on the deal he is well paid for getting people to focus on their waste.

Matt I have to give him a fair go ..I have been very cruel in the past and he must be right he was on TV for goodness sake.

So long as the PM does not come out saying this is all we need to go nuclear I dont care.. many things I fear will be pushed to save us when in fact that is remote... but it so interesting to see this all pass by...
And it is worse than the y2k bug so I worry they cant fix it.
alex

[matt]

:lol: Yeah. As if anyone on TV would lie!

Cheers.

[joe_smith]

The quote above is from wikipedia.

From what I see happening in the world all of this is happening now. Even the flu is getting worse each year as has been so tragically demonstrated in WA and Asia. Dont listen to what people say, just look at the world around us, all this is happening now. the Great Barrier Reef is in great danger because of climate change. Glaciers throughout the world are shrinking and many say that the glaciers are the Earths canneries. The effects of global warming have many more effects then just us getting a bit warmer. The biggest threat with global warming I see for us today is climate change.

The only thing that is placed above the safety and heath interests of the community, are the profit levels of the major world company's. Thats why many of them cant or wont see global warming is real and spread misinformation to confuse us even more. We are all free to make up our own mind about the problem. As you can tell I'm on Al Gore side :thumbsup:

[Bassnut]

On the subject of fraud....

The greens would have us all drive fuel cell electic cars and use solar panels.

Although electric propulsion is efficicient, the manufacture, delivery and storage of Hydrogen for fuel cells is extremely inefficient. Maufacturing Hydrogen is very electric power intensive, guess where that power comes from, coal fired power stations!!.

With todays technology, a hydrogen powered fuel cell powered electric car generates double the greenhouse gas a regular petrol car does. Banning fuel cell electric cars should be the 1st priority!.

Silicon solar panels, use lots of silicon (duh), glass and steel framing. The energy required to make a solar panel (think processing silicon and glass from sand, and steel from raw materials) is VASTLY more than the energy the solar cell would ever produce in its lifetime.

Fred

[joe_smith]

3 words solve that problem "nuclear power plant" its the year 2007 coal fired power stations should be a thing of the past, but the coal industry is worth billions of dollars a year so we are stuck with 100 year old technology thats dangerous to our health and environment. Nuclear power is clean, safe and efficient. Lots of countries use them without trouble. yes I know about Chernobyl....... But Australia isn't the same as the Soviet Union, so I don't see that as a excuse not to go nuclear.

[casstony]

Having worked in heavy industry I've been able to see first hand how safety standards deteriorate when the company is under financial pressure. Plant maintenance is minimised and short-cuts are taken in operating procedures. The boss will heavily police the wearing of safety glasses though to give the illusion of being concerned about safety. When something goes wrong only one bunny needs to be found to take the blame. I would not be happy living next to a nuclear power generator.

[Bassnut]

Absolutely Joe, with you there, now tell the greens, see how far you get. They are in dream land, no appreciation of reality. Its the only clean BASELINE power scource we can have now, all the rest is intermittent puffery (solar, wind, etc).

Fred

[joe_smith]

I agree with that 100% it happens in most company's now. Even the one I work for is guilty of that.

I would be happy to live near a nuclear power plant, now a coal fire fueled plant I wouldn't want to live 100 kms from one. you have much bigger odds being killed in a car crash then a nuclear power plant accident but that dosent stop you traveling by car ;)

[joe_smith]

I agree most of the greens are pot smoking tree huggers and live in there own fantasyland. I am a bit green myself (not in a pot smoking tree hugging way) but I care about my environment around me, and nuclear power seems like a good choice with the technology we have now. So in 100 years time we will have much better air then another 100 years more of coal power :thumbsup:

[KG8]

I think nuclear for SE qld is the go for sure! We can put the generators over the Mc Pherson range in northern NSW and ship the spent fuel rods off to the SW corner of Tassie :thumbsup:

[xelasnave]

I have my own fantasy land and plenty of trees to hug:thumbsup: .my own carbon credit system and fresh air supply... one worries about the world but you can only control a little part of it... I look after my bit of the planet you can still have things without going to the stone ages.. humans will come thru:thumbsup:

I have views for and against N power but it wont last for long either.

The day will come where we have to face the fact we are going to have to get power direct from the Sun..because everything will be used up..no oil no coal no yellow cake... so in the end man will have to do what all animals have to do who hang around for a while..harvest the Sun.

I used to get fired up about this because of the vested interests twisting things on both sides but the wonderful thing is at least the problem is being addressed...

I liked Al Gore today..and I have given him some stick in the past.. jeeze you cant blame him for having a go ..and doing some folk some good...but he is getting something moving.

I dont know how the problem of China and India can be addressed ..their coal burning activity effectively means all we do counts for zip... no alternate power choice by us will change that... thats the futility in my view.

But its seems that China will have lots of solar power if any one follows the rising career of a Chinese Aussie.
He plans to sell power from panels and rival oil companies as an energy supplier..will he can he...
This sort of thing will happen and maybe we can stop all human causes..

But it will still get hotter seems to be the expert view as well... heard some scientists share that view on the radio so it must be true... they saw a need for doing everything possible even if futile...and they effectively said its a case of how we can slow it so we can prepare for the worst...

I have to say I sortta agree..even though that sounds like an about face.. but my reaction to special interests has hidden my real view I guess. Still how can we stop it even slow it..

Any ideas folks:shrug:

alex:) :) :)

[KG8]

I doubt "WE" can do anything now. Perhaps in the future, if social change occurs. At the moment though corporations run the planet, and people silently consume because they believe that the 2 party political structure gives them a choice in the running of the show. Deep inside most people is the feeling that government is corrupt but they believe strongly in the system. While they still believe, that is to say, while the system still gives them a decent standard of living, they will continue to vote and not act.

[Karls48]

Without wanting to offend anyone I ‘m sorry to say that most of you gentlemen do not have clue about realities of life when going gets tough. Australia had it good for at least last 100 years and the population has been to the large extent isolated from man made disasters that affected rest of the word. Australia is indeed “lucky country” and I very much hope it will stay this way. However if all the people of Australia start pushing in different directions it will eventually be end of “lucky country”. Most of great civilizations ended this way. I’m sixty years old and been living in three different countries. I base my views on life experience not on how it should be, based on moral, environmental, religious or whatever view. And I s@!t (s@!t) on visionaries as Che Guevara, Lenin, Hitler, Marx to name few from recent history as their social experiment caused deaths of millions and life long suffering of tenths millions people. Starry-eyed journalists fresh from university don’t cut ice with me, they may have great ideas but they don’t know what they talking about. If you are really honest about this global warming debate as yourself following questions. Because if you are going to radically change economy and political system of your country those are situations that you may find yourself in. How many of you have been shoot on by the foreign forces invading your country? How many of you did have to bow and appear to accept ideology that is contrary to your believes? How many of you have ever been hungry? I don’t mean being stuck in traffic jam for couple of hours with no KFC or Mac Donald’s in sight. I mean really hungry when you eat very little for weeks and then nothing for two or three days. When the piece of months old rock hard bread covered in green mould tastes really good. In that situation if you come across last koala in whole word and if you and your family is starving, you are going to kill it and eat it regardless how “green” you are.
Nuclear power will become more and more spread, regardless if people like it or not. The fear of nuclear weapons being developed by the countries with nuclear power is baseless as to day any industrial country can develop nuclear weapon in few years
Alex got probably best advice that come from this debate. Global warming – if its coming for what ever reason - adapt to it and make money from it. This ability to adapt and to take advantage of any situation is what makes us dominant species on this planet. Did our the evolution come to the end.?

[joe_smith]

I think its more big business that run the world, the government are under pressure from them to do things to keep the economy going. The problem is we ARE to much dependent on fossil fuels. the whole world is based on it, the middle east solely relies on it for there economy also its worth billions of $$$ and where the big bucks are so is the greed and corruption. Its a dangerous predicament to be in we are damed if we do and even more damed if we don't do anything.

alex, I think when we start to run out of fossil fuels is when ww3 will start. By the time we use up all of earths resources I think the earth will be a bad place to live anyway thats if we can survive that long. I would like to see how the world will be in 500 years time from know

I agree, the way the planet is divided things will never change for us to move to the next level. The people of Earth will have to be as one, living by the same rules and conditions and reaching for the same goals and I for one cannot see this ever happing. If we are a experiment or a life like game of life by some great alien force, then I think that experiment/game has failed big time :sadeyes:

"rival oil companies as an energy supplier" I doubt that will ever happen The USA invaded Iraq for there stake in middle east oil supply. Fossil Fuel company's don't like competition thats why theres no alternate Power in general use around the world.

[xelasnave]

Well on the bright side and I am not suggesting this will solve the problem but its a ray of hope for the carbon part of things...as I understand it a plant only gathers its carbon from the co2 in the air.. I also believe and presume there would be authority but can not remember mine..so this is suspect..mmm..everything is suspect when you think of it...
Plants evolved in a 3% co2 air content..which is now only 1% approx?..so as the co2 goes up the plant life does better..well that may or may not be so but I tell you up home the trees have taken off... its like Day of the Trifids the way they come in...up the top is like a forrest...where I was going to put a pier needs the chain saw..and the forrest down at Sandys..it only went in 18 mths ago..I have never seen tree grow so fast... could they be already helping getting more co2.. mm we need another study.

I did not suggest our mate has any chance of pulling the solar thing off my point was once this was nonsense.. but a man with such a view heads a billion dollar New York listed company..an ex Sydney sider ..neat eh... if he says it I would still wait and see... he may be a leader that changes much..he already has.

Or another way of looking at him...any one who can make a billion or two I wont dismiss as not having a chance.
alex

[joe_smith]

no offense taken by me mate ;)

we are the dominate species that has wipe out 100s of species of animals including our own, in 1803-1833 us in our lucky new country wiped out 1000's of Tasmanian Aborigines. we striped millions of acres of trees and forest. Put more pollution into the atmosphere then all of the volcano's on earth. I say that makes us the stupidest species on the planet that will eventually wipe it self out and along with everything with it. the biggest disaster to happen to the earth is modern man.

on a lighter note I dont think we will have that problem today as you can walk from one maccers to the next anywhere in the world now ;) BUT, what you suffered all those years ago is still in place in the world today and will never change.

You know thats sadly a true fact. People make money from war, people make money from people being sick and dieing and people make money from people staving to death seems you can make a buck anywhere..............

[joe_smith]

So many points being raised :thumbsup:

Did you know thats also an effect of our planet warming up, plant life will thrive. I read an article in Sky and Telescope about how our sun will end, I guess many of have read it also, and it say plant life will be the dominate species along with insects. I guess we will evolve into fertilizer at that stage.

[matt]

ANU Media Alert
News from The Australian National University

TUESDAY 10 JULY 2007
LEADING SCIENTISTS TO DE-BUNK THE DEBUNKERS

Scientists from The Australian National University and Stanford University will address the scientific flaws and half-truths in the claims of climate change skeptics at a public forum at ANU this Friday, July 13, from 1pm-2.30pm.

Entitled “Debunking The Great Global Warming Swindle” the forum will critique the claims aired in The Great Global Warming Swindle to be televised on ABC TV Thursday evening.

The forum will focus in particular on claims that global warming is not due to greenhouse gas emissions but other ‘natural’ causes.

Speakers and topics at the symposium will include:

·Dr Janette Lindesay, Fenner School of Environmental Science at ANU: The Science of Global Warming: Instrumental Records

·Professor Robert Dunbar, Stanford University School of Earth Sciences: Lessons from the Past: Manmade Climate Change versus Solar, Volcanic Forcing

·Professor Malcolm McCulloch, ANU Research School of Earth Sciences and CoECRS: Why we should Avoid Dangerous Climate Change: Risks, Thresholds and Mitigation

Following the presentations the forum will be open for general discussion and questions.

The public and media are welcome to attend.


Something I just received via email notification.

Could be interesting for ACT folks:)

Shame about the time of day for the forum, though.

[ving]

bring on the iceage! :P

[xelasnave]

I can finally understand why one would rather look at big brother or the simpsons:eyepop: ...it is a real worry:scared: ....gw or whatever the future with the growth in population holds many chalenges..and until a major major event forcing action we put off the day of reconning when we run out of stuff..be it weather or fuel.. I find that scarey on a bad day..on a good day ..humans will push thru:thumbsup: ... or something better will take our place;) .

really when you really think about ..in a worst case scenario... the way Mr Gore presents it he sell well the evidence such one must be concerned... I think there would be some who have a worst case scenario both of effect and of time frame..serious starting tomorrow... its seems that such a time will be in humans future history ... mmm a worry indeed...
And the plant thing as Joe pointed out..are triffids possible..mmm..
We need to move off the planet ..who's coming :lol: :lol: :lol: ?
alex:) :) :)

[joe_smith]

I least I have something in common with the triffids we both love music :)

I don't think we have to worry in our life time about major change just minor ones. I'll book a seat on the next ship out of here :thumbsup: "Space the finial frontier"

To survive as a species we have to travel out in space or we are doomed as a species as the planet will be destroyed by the sun anyway, but going by our track recored we'll will be extinct sooner then that.

[cahullian]

Even if we could change things for the better if we all pulled together it will never happen. I walked to the local shopping centre today (about 400 m ) and two neighbours who live closer than I do drove there and back. I also picked up pages of junk mail laying on the ground and two plastic bottles. I walked passed a pizza box and about half a dozen other bottles discarded.

I am on the green energy grid (not cheap) and use long life low power lightbulbs but I also like my beer cold and we have three cars in the house now the kids are adults they want their own freedom to go where they like when they like. I do insist that I drive us all to work and school each day so we use one car for that.

All in all I try my best but contribute as much harm to the planet as the next person.

Gazz

[casstony]

Pessimism breeds apathy and nothing gets done. (not aimed at any particular poster)

Better to prepare for the worst but hope for the best.

[joe_smith]

Thats the whole problem you, me, them and us, we cant do anything about it its like a runaway train. As i said in one of my post we are 100% depended on fossil fuels without it we cant survive and countries would topple. The only thing I can see happening is its all down hill for every living thing on mother Earth thanks to modern man.......... But the good thing is we are safe now and for many years to come, I pity the poor people in 200 years time

[casstony]

It certainly seems like an uphill battle, but that shouldn't stop us from trying to reduce our impact on the planet. It's not a big jump from where we are now to the point at which we can efficiently use solar power. Government scientific research organisations could be better funded and governments could offer large cash prizes to private enterprise if they reach a certain goal. I wonder what could have been achieved with those multi-billions of dollars wasted in Iraq? If the west can develop appropriate technologies and give/sell them to China we might have a chance.

[astroron]

Recieved today http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6290228.stm

[matt]

Interesting read, Ron:thumbsup:

Certainly worth adding that to the discussion 'mix'.

There is always the danger that if we ascribe too much of what's happening 'down here' to what's going on 'up there', then we are not looking closely enough at our own activities.

I think it's in our nature to blame something far off or 'other' for what's going on, rather than hold a mirror up to ourselves and be willing to do the hard, difficult things.

I'm not personally convinced one way or the other, yet.

But certainly food for thought and I'm keen to keep reading and listening to both sides of the argument.

Also gives us another interesting topic of discussion when we catch up at Cambroon;)

[M110]

I'm getting on to my local polititian and demading we get some of that global warming. Hobart seems to be missing out as usual.lol

[xelasnave]

Who will head the delegation asking India and China not to open 800 coal powered plants??? (the ones that will provide heat and power to many without it now).

Lets start a list of folk who would like to see their world not change and select from that group..

We could send the head of the formula one racing association... or the head of the drag car association... that guy behind the v8 super cars..he could give them many reasons why they need to cut back... Your population can freeze so our population can have their V8s.. yeh they could buy that.. our population has bought similar crap.

All the wasters of energy and the wasters of resourses must be able to offer reasons why they can waste and the rest of the world must fix it up... will they stop their waste..no..no..no. so why should anyone bother if the wasters go on wasting. They mess it up we fix it up..not likely ..get real or give up on it..

I will do something if they do something first...

Dont you get it .
.the hypocracy.
. the worst sin of all.
.dont do as I do do as I say.

. those who "have" are worried that if those who "do not have it" get it, it will get hotter so someone else must pay..

how much carbon to produce a 4wd that never goes off road with a truck power plant, how much energy wasted in the city office buildings the factories etc that leave the lights on...

I have done my bit and purchased a new 5 watt and a 10 watt light (the curley energy efficient one Mr Gore said to get) to replace the 25 watt...

I wiped the two solar panels so they will be more efficient, put an extra blanket on the bed so that will be less wood on the fire...

I dont feel guilty and wont be made so by the gluttons who say one thing and do another.

They are my last words ever on this subject.

Over to you Mr Gore.

alex

[alan meehan]

i couldn,t agree more alex what about the global world concert,they used more lighting &power than ten small cities not to mention the rubbish left behind ,global warming will make for some good weather photos.

[tbentley]

It's amazing how egotistical we humans are isn't it. We can't believe for a second that anything is beyond our control.
Do we really know if it's warming? If so is it any different to the long term history of the planet? The only evidence we have is based on data taken from ice. Of course the interpretation of all of this data is subject to lots of assumptions which we can't possibly know are correct, unless we had the original data to verify it. Chicken or the egg anyone?
Of course even if it is warming how can we possibly know what is causing it? We can have educated guesses, theories or whatever but there is only one way to prove it. Change the rate at which we emit carbon and see if the warming changes in accordance. As it seems it will be very hard to reduce our emissions rapidly I propose that we increase them by massive amounts to prove it one way or the other.
In the name of science I ask you all to turn on your heaters and air conditioners on full, breathe more, kill the trees, drive the long way to work and turn all your electrical appliances on. In ten years or so we should have the data we need.
LOL
Travis

[Omaroo]

I know it's been said before, but those who wholeheartedly follow apocalyptic headlines as gospell are probably made up of the same group who believe that the world was going to end because of a "Y2K" bug. That was a doozy - a hell of a lot of people were convinced that their laptop was going to eat them.

Damn amusing....... there are people who just love attention.

What also annoys me is that the BBC "Swindle" presentation tonight on the ABC is being labelled "contentious", yet Al Gore's apocalyptic ravings aren't. Incredible - we humans are worse than sheep. This must be an age where people believe what politicians say about scientific phenomena rather than scientists. :screwy:

[casstony]

Ego has little relevance here Travis. The point is we may or may not be facing a serious threat. It's up to each person to look at the evidence and decide whether to guard against this potential threat or not. Having been wrong often in the past makes me cautious about taking a stand, but I'm sufficiently concerned that I think we should do something to reduce our CO2 emissions. We have to wean off fossil fuels sooner or later anyway.

Having a strong opinion and then being proven wrong - now that's something that really dents my ego.

[astroron]

Where there is smoke there is probably fire.
What do you propose to do, sit back and do nothing?
I as an older bloke ,with only maybe at the best 2 score years left on this mortal toil, it wont affect me that much, but what are we leaving our future generations?

[matt]

The latest out of ANU...for those interested:

ANU Media Release
News from The Australian National University



THURSDAY 12 JULY 2007
SCIENTISTS TAKE THE HOT AIR OUT OF ‘SWINDLE’

Leading scientists from The Australian National University and Stanford University have dismissed much of the content of “The Great Global Warming Swindle” to be broadcast on ABC TV tonight as a lot of hot air that fails to present any credible evidence to back up its claim.

ANU climate scientists Dr Janette Lindesay and Professor McCulloch, along with their Stanford University colleague, Professor Robert Dunbar, will critique the claims aired in the documentary at a public forum at ANU this Friday lunchtime, focusing in particular on claims that global warming is not due to greenhouse gas emissions but other ‘natural’ causes. All three have viewed the original documentary that went to air in Britain.

“Nearly all the ideas presented in the documentary as arguments against human-induced climate change are either carefully selected parts of more complicated stories or are in fact recycled hypotheses that have long since been rejected by the science community based on thorough testing and analysis,” said Professor Dunbar.

“The record of pre-20th century climate change has been developed by 1000's of scientists working all over the world. Contrary to the unsubstantiated assertions in documentary, this record strongly supports the view that carbon dioxide levels have an important and substantial influence on climate, at timescales ranging from years to 100's of thousands of years. Climate scientists have also examined the influence of other factors that force climate change, solar forcing and ocean circulation for example. Although these are found to be important, the collective wisdom is that carbon dioxide levels are very important, particularly the current and previous periods of planetary warming. The fact that climate can change "naturally" in no way argues against the idea that humans also influence climate.”

Dr Lindesay said there is unequivocal scientific evidence that global average temperatures are higher today than they have been at any time since world-wide instrumental measurements began in the mid 19th century, and strong evidence that they are higher than at any time in at least the last 1000 years.

“It is equally indisputable that there is an identifiable anthropogenic (human) signal in the temperature trends during the last 100 plus years, overlaid on natural variability.” Dr Lindesay said.

“In Australia, the effects of rainfall variability have been exacerbated by rising temperatures, as is evident in the long-running drought and recent severe bushfire seasons in south-eastern Australia. The rainfall decline in the south-west of Western Australia has been linked with large-scale shifts in atmospheric pressure patterns associated with climate change.

Professor McCulloch warned that the program takes a step backward in attempting to deny the reality of global warming. “It ignores for example recent temperature data that shows that the beginning of this century has included the 2nd to 7th warmest years recorded with the years 1998 and 2005 being the warmest on instrumental records. Other so-called scientific data are at best distortions or in some cases blatant misrepresentations.”

“Whilst there is no question that our planet has previously undergone major shifts in climate our current era of global warming is unique in being driven by man-made emissions of greenhouse gases.

“Our current era of global warming is being driven by increased atmospheric CO2 , and is occurring almost 100 times faster than during the period at the end of the last ‘ice age’, and is of enormous concern. In fact, such rates of warming have rarely, if ever, been previously encountered by our planet.

“So what can be done to prevent this? Action taken now can substantially ameliorate some of the worst effects. Clearly the reduction of CO2 emissions is a key challenge, which requires more efficient energy usage, and the development of new and alternative technologies, such as solar and wind power, as well as the wise use of our vast natural endowments of gas, coal, and uranium. Given the expertise and calibre of Australia’s scientific community, and thus our potential technological capacity, there is clearly a great opportunity for Australia to play a leading role in the development and implementation of a new energy regime, which takes advantage of our natural resources. In such critical times, scientists have a clear responsibility, to not only get the science ‘right’, but also in educating, not misleading the general populous as this program does.”

The public forum, “De-bunking the Debunking 'The Great Global Warming Swindle” will take place from 1.00 pm – 2.30 pm on Friday 13 July at the Finkel Theatre, John Curtin School of Medical Research, Garran Road, ANU.

[xelasnave]

As I said I am not going to say another thing about global warming other than if its real I am sure we can fix it just like we fixed the problem of children dieing all over the world thru lack of food...

I think its down to only 50,000 a day dieing now... now that seemed like a problem that the West could not fix and yet we have.

How many died today from starvation I wonder... 6 billion dollars earmarked for desalinators for Sydney and Melbourne and 50,000 a day die...

I wonder when someone will do a movie about that and the other problems that Mr Gore helps us avoid...

In truth I dont know how many a day die from starving ...who does? who cares? when we have bigger issues to dribble on about... now theres a good movie title..."The Sad and Unwanted Truth"...we could have bands do concerts to fix it..the ongoing hunger..... er was that done or was that a movie plot I remember.
Yes it was done..Sting was there U2?
mmm get aid for the funds and knighthoods all at once.. near stopped people starving so they abandonded it ... fads can only be milked for so long.

Maybe we just concentrate on fixing something within our reach like stopping humans consuming more energy and becoming more glutonous.. much easier than feeding the staving.

alex

[sarahpsystudent]

hello! :) - I'm a psychology student in Melbourne who is currently working on a thesis about attitudes toward global warming and various current and potential energy sources. There is very little Australian-based research in this area at the current point in time.
In short, I am conducting an online, anonymous survey that takes around 10 minutes to complete.
If you would like to contribute, here is the link:
http://opinio.online.swin.edu.au/s?s=2235 (http://opinio.online.swin.edu.au/s?s=2235)
Thanks to those who do take the time to share their knowledge and opinion on this important issue.
Apologies if this post offends/bores or impinges upon anyones enjoyment of this discussion - I hope I am not considered a spammer and promise to only post this once - please let me know if there is any problems though and I will remove it if this is the case... :hi:

[ballaratdragons]

Your welcome to become a regular contributor and join in the conversations.

You never know, Sarah, you might even get hooked on Astronomy!!!! :thumbsup:

[ballaratdragons]

What gets up my goat is the world-wide concert 'Live Earth!!!!

It didn't do anything but entertain youth around the Globe with their favourite bands.

Oh, sorry . . it did do some other things. BIG things.

It caused massive pollution from the enormous mountains of rubbish left behind at each venue worldwide, It delivered tons more car exhaust from all the people driving to the events, the concerts around the Globe in total consumed more Electricity than a city, and don't even mention the massive amount of paper that was involved in hand-outs, programs etc!!!

What a fine example of cleaning up the Earth :thumbsup:

Sheeeesh! :screwy:

But Hey! The Youth got to go to great concerts :rolleyes:

Did 'Live Earth' make you save the earth?

[OneOfOne]

Unfortunately Ken, I have to agree. I would love to be able to say that Live Earth has begun the world on a path of fixing the global warming problems, but as a lot of skeptics have said "it was a concert", and that is all it was. I had exactly the same thoughts, they may have used bio fuel for the generators, but I am sure the audience didn't walk and the staging equipment wasn't dragged there on trolleys! And I would be very surprised if they all, or anyone, put their rubbish in bins. Maybe we have been on this planet for too long Ken. When the "concert" generation takes over the world, I hope I am pushing up daisies.

I can picture it now...."interest rates are set to soar", lets have a "Live Interest" concert, "we are running out of water" -> "Live water" and so on. My generation we not driven everywhere, we didn't get cars when we were in high school, or dare leave a light on when we went out of the room, we didn't have a computer and TV in our room, a new mobile phone every year, new clothes every other week etc. I think this generation (as a whole) will inherit the Earth they insisted their parents make for them (pollution and resource wise at least). I hope the less self centric teenagers take an interest in politics and do DO something rather than sing about it, so the human race may have a chance of surviving.

[OneOfOne]

I haven't seen the global warming show yet, I hope to see it over the weekend. I did see a couple of snippets while rewinding a tape or two. The one comment I can agree, at least partly with, is that developing nations will not be happy when we say to them that they cannot embrace all the technology that we enjoyed and insist that the be "green". You could see the shows point that the "environmental side" is holding back the development of these countries, but the Earth could not survive the environmental onslaught caused by the whole of Africa driving cars, mobile phones, world travel etc. I guess we had the benefit of living at a time of plentiful energy, but by the time we realised the errors of our ways, it was too late for anyone else to join in.

The energy party is about over and it is getting time for everyone to go home and if anyone turns up now to join in....to quote a very famous saying..."tough titties".

[PCH]

I always recall what a well known English gentleman of the 'old school' type said on radio once. I forget what the interview was about, but he said ...
"all we can do is hope for the best, expect the worst and take what comes". I think it's pretty spot on here too!

Cheers,
Paul

[rogerg]

I haven't really been following this topic, and have only seen a little of the documentary in question.

To be honest I wouldn't be sure if the documentary is right or the global warming scientists are right, I'm not a scientist, and I don't particularly care....

I think the point is, people on the earth waste an awful lot of everything, energy, fossil fuels included. We don't need to waste that much. This "global warming fanfair" is as good excuse as any to cut that waste. Doing so would surely have a less burdening impact on the planet, which can only be a good thing.

Also, I'm all for reducing our reliance on fossil fuels irrespective of global warming, it doesn't make sense to so heavily rely on something which will at some time just suddenly run out completely, leaving us "up the creek without a paddle".

Roger.

[KenGee]

Very sad that even oh a science related website like this it's impossible to have a rational science based discussion about the facts and what science can and can't draw from them. Too many people are getting what scientist are saying and what environmentalist and worst the environmentalist are saying. Worst still many people seem unable or unwilling to follow some very basic scientific principles. While there are differing scientific opinions on what the facts mean. Despite what some groups may wish people to believe the science journals are a hot bed of robust debate. This subject has been thrashed out in the pages of science journals over the last 30 years or so. There are times when very good scientist are just plain wrong. Einstein views on QED are a good example. He hadn't or couldn't keep up with the change in understanding and in the end just plain didn't want to except the conclusions. In fact his famous comment on QED namely “God does not play dice” has become the catch phase of many a nut.
The same can be seen with global warming denial’ers, anti-evolutionist, and just about any modern scientific world view you’ll get some fridge group coming out against it. Often with very common sense reasons why the scientific consensus is wrong. I think what was most disappointing part of last night was the question(?) from the audience. It would have been a good chance to talk about some of the issue however that’s not what we got. Now it’s a fact that all scientist bring their own hypothesis however hypothesis don’t become mainstream theories except via the weight of facts. For those who doubt that just me an example.

[xelasnave]

The free, unhampered exchange of ideas and scientific conclusions is necessary for the sound development of science, as it is in all spheres of cultural life. ... We must not conceal from ourselves that no improvement in the present depressing situation is possible without a severe struggle; for the handful of those who are really determined to do something is minute in comparison with the mass of the lukewarm and the misguided. ...
Humanity is going to need a substantially new way of thinking if it is to survive!" (Albert Einstein)
alex

[xelasnave]

The notion that all these fragments is separately existent is evidently an illusion, and this illusion cannot do other than lead to endless conflict and confusion. Indeed, the attempt to live according to the notion that the fragments are really separate is, in essence, what has led to the growing series of extremely urgent crises that is confronting us today. Thus, as is now well known, this way of life has brought about pollution, destruction of the balance of nature, over-population, world-wide economic and political disorder and the creation of an overall environment that is neither physically nor mentally healthy for most of the people who live in it. Individually there has developed a widespread feeling of helplessness and despair, in the face of what seems to be an overwhelming mass of disparate social forces, going beyond the control and even the comprehension of the human beings who are caught up in it. (David Bohm, Wholeness and the Implicate Order, 1980)

alex

[casstony]

It's good that you have yourself to talk to Alex :)
I enjoy reading your posts but it often takes me a little time to decipher them.
When looking at the big picture it's hard to see Humanity's path to an enlightened future..........so many problems............but if we are able to solve one problem at a time hopefully the path will become evident. Of course, to solve a problem we have to actually tackle it first.

[xelasnave]

Well its a case of listening to the great writers of history ..there are many .
I am never lonely therefore.
Thank you for the encouragement
alex

[tornado33]

What astounds me is the way people waste electricity with excessive lighting (yes as an amateur astronomer I do notice wasted lighting a lot more) but I notice many houses dont just have an outside light, they have dual 150watt floodlights, and not sensor ones, but ones permanantly left on all night. How do they afford the power bills?

The best thing governments can do to start limiting our "carbon footprints" is to have the same lighting ordinances in every city in Australia as there is in Coonabarabran, and lighting like this
http://www.mso.anu.edu.au/news/archive/2004/03_mar/
MUST be mandatory. It should also be illegal to lave on any light outside that isnt for an essential purpose. Every streetlight must be shielded, and the wattage of its bulb halved. All these acts would at least halve or more, power consumption for lighting across Australia, yet still provide adequate and safe lghting where its needed. It would, as a not too small side issue give us MUCH darker night skies in the cities :)

[Outbackmanyep]

You watch.....like the halfwits at the Water Board, you reduce the electricity consumption then the electricity companies will lose money, they'll jack the prices up to cover the deficit.....
Although power reduction and less lighting will be good the consequences could be that we pay more in the end anyway!