I may need to shutdown IceInSpace :(

[iceman]

Hey all

There's no easy way to start with this, so I'll just jump to it.
I think I'm going to have to shut down IceInSpace.

The server hosting is AU$2k per year , and it's not something I'm able to keep paying. The advertising that kept the site running has all but disappeared, and even on the current hosting, I can't get hold of Terry anymore so I literally don't have access to some of the backend/server going forward.

I'm pursuing options of how I can keep IceInSpace alive...

My current preferred option is to move to a new, modern platform with a modern version of vBulletin (mobile responsive, larger file size limits etc). Starting with the forum, and try to move the site/articles later.

The bigger risk is that I won't be able to migrate the 20 years of history of the forum to a new forum, too. I won't know for sure until I find a new platform and see what migration options are available.

I'm still working on how I can get the hosting bills can get paid (via a partner or similar), because the bill is due literally right now.


The only other option, is to say our goodbyes.. :(

I wanted to give you a heads-up.. I know there's some smart people in this community and maybe there'll be some ideas I haven't thought of.

[multiweb]

Implement a small yearly fee x the number of active members. That would give you time to move to a VPS and cut cost dramatically O/S assuming you're not already. Regarding old content, well, something has to give.

[bojan]

Oh no...


How about voluntary donations?

[chrisp9au]

100 hundred of us paying $20 a year would cover it?
There HAS to be a way! :thumbsup:

[atalas]

Noooooo! $1 donation from every member every year would fix this.

[Tulloch]

That is disappointing - I don't post here much (I prefer to use Cloudy Nights for that) but this site is my only trusted source for picking up 2nd hand astro items. Most of my equipment (from cheap accessories to my 9.25" SCT) has been bought from this site, and I'd hate to see it disappear.

Maybe send out a sitewide request on all forums for a $10/20 donation and see what happens?

Andrew

[stringscope]

I would happily pay an annual subscription. Also donation to get you over the immediate issue.

[Nikolas]

Happy to pay an annual subscription, will also be away to vet scammers who may try and sell items here, (not that there were many anyway)

[AnakChan]

Same for me, I don't really post much here, but IIS has been invaluable for its Classifieds.

I think it'll depend on your intent. IMO, in this current day/age, setting up a mandatory subscription is likely going to create "closed club" that buys time in short term, but not necessarily long term.

I'd fall on the soliciting donations, but at regular intervals sharing transparency on where/how the donations are going to. I reckon this would help increase donations IMO. This also keeps the site open if the intent is to have more a community than a members-only club.

Biasedly/Subjectively, I see Classifieds to be the main winner here and maybe this is the space to have a mandatory posting fee, or restricted membership access - both buying & selling.

Working areas to save costs too, looking at Projects/Articles, Equipment Reviews/Resources, etc. may not have such high traffic, so could save costs in dropping them? Don't know how much that'll save.

[Joshua Bunn]

I would also be happy to pay a donation now, and an annual subscription to help keep the site going.

[bojan]

It is not only Classifieds..

Most important (IMHO) sections are DIY and discussions on equipment and methods..

there is a wast amount of information here, we should preserve that.
I am sure most regular users (and others) will support IIS with donations and/or annual subscription.



Perhaps a poll with question could reveal the general feeling among members about that?

[Pasko]

I just tried the PayPal link to donate but it’s broken. Are the EFT account details still correct for donations?

[gaseous]

I think a lot of people would be happy with a $10/$20 yearly access subscription. I don't know how many people are regulars on here, but maybe even $5 a year would keep things in a healthy surplus going forward. Perhaps a 1% premium payable on classified sales would help as well, although I'm not sure how you'd police that. As others have mentioned, a poll would let you see what may be a preferable solution, as well as giving an indication as to how many people are willing to cough up a bit of coin to keep the site alive.

[leon]

Absolutely a 10.00/20.00 subscription for all members and new ones each year, :) I would be most happy to pay that or even more.:thumbsup:

This is very sad news indeed, :sadeyes: lets all work together to keep this forum up and running, i just love this place.:thumbsup:

Leon:thumbsup:

[AlexN]

Absolutely happy to pay a yearly memebership to help keep it alive, alternatively, I can help you to look into new hosting/migration processes etc...

It's been a few years since I've done a full website and database migration from one server to another, especially when talking about having to shape 20+ years of posts and user profiles...

I really don't want IIS to go away if we can avoid it Mike.

Let me know if there is anything I can do to help, but by all means, implement a membership fee for us all, I'd say the firm majority of active users would happily cough up $20~$50/yr... I pay more than that for Astrobin, just to host my photos so I can link to them on here!

[Saturn488]

Subscription model would be better than a once off donation as there will be a constant amount of funds coming through to keep the site running.

Somewhere in the neighborhood of $15 a year would cover it (if $2k to run it annually then 134 member payments would cover it and I am sure there is more than that here).

[iceman]

Subscriptions can be a barrier to entry for newcomers who might want to come to the site and enjoy the discussions, learn stuff, ask advice etc.

It's probably not as much of a problem for people who have already experienced the value. But for someone just starting out, they haven't seen the value yet, and would likely go elsewhere.

I'd prefer not to go down that route - there'd have to be elements that remain free for all / free forever.


Apologies, yes that's broken.
But you can still paypal to paypal@iceinspace.com.au, or the BSB/Acc# are still valid.

I haven't got time at the moment to reply more, but I'm reading the discussions and appreciate your thoughts.

[DarkArts]

Perhaps a half-way solution might work:

(a) Donations, with a suggested rate and a gentle hint that heavier users might donate more;
(b) A subscription fee but only for using the IIS Classifieds, which then keeps out the scammers and is an easier 'sell' for new users.

Just a thought.

Edit: Although I don't post much anymore, 9 times out of 10, it's the history that brings me back to the site - to look up some past wisdom or solution. It would be a shame to lose that.

[Crater101]

Seconded! More than happy to chip in and keep the site alive!

[MortonH]

We can't lose IIS. I probably spend more time here than all the other sites I visit combined.

$20 a year would be fine. It's less than a pizza and I need to lose weight anyway!

[RB]

You’re also the Icetrade king Morton.

:lol: :thumbsup:

[ccmanny]

Agree with the strategy of unhindered access for research/reply/post but a subscription to post in classifieds

[Joshua Bunn]

If a subscription is a turn off for new comers, who are yet to see the value in this site, possibly making the first year free would help with getting them on board, thereafter there is a fee, IF they want to continue.

[Outcast]

Another site i use (not astro related) uses 'seller fees' (as well as other methods of raising funds).

From what I recall it is 4% of whatever you sell your item for... when you mark your item sold it prompts you for the fee.

Dunno how much $ wise gets turned over here in the classifieds but, a small fee on successful sale, provided such an initiative would generate sufficient income to cover hosting costs doesn't seem overly onerous.

Less 'exclusive club' like as access remains free & open, you just have to contribute to costs when you sell stuff via the sites...

My1.5c less, gst

[Startrek]

It would be sad to see IIS shutdown, 7 years for me , such a wonderful engaging Astro forum
More than happy to subscribe to keep it alive !!

Martin

[astronobob]

Agree with all said, subscriptions, donations and newbies 1yr free,, It is a fantastic forum, saddening to loose

[OzEclipse]

Mike,

Sorry to hear this.

I'm part of the moderator team for the sky searchers forum.
https://theskysearchers.com/app.php/portal

Our membership sits at around 4000 although active contributing membership number is much less.

Hosting fees are about USD350 per quarter, similar to what you are quoting. The donations button is only opened a fortnight before the next quarterly payment is due. It usually only takes a matter of days before the $350 is raised.

If we go over before the donation button is switched off, the money is set aside for the next payment.

Joe

[EpickCrom]

I agree with what everyone has said, we cannot lose IIS!

I've learned a lot from here since starting in Astronomy in 2020, and I'm willing to chip in financially as well.

Long Live IIS!!

[TrevorW]

Set up a free Facebook group for newbies then get them to shift over to paid web page later

[glend]

If you use a site like Astrobin as an example, there is an annual fee which is automatically charged by his system, unless you opt out. However, Astrobin offers a significantly different site than IIS, in that it is a storage site, and now it is backed up. There was a time when it did regularly have database issues but admin has significantly improved the infrastructure.

The second example is Cloudy Nights, which is owned by an astronomy equipment vendor, and where membership entitles a small purchasing discount. Cloudy Nights is a massive site, with a large primarily American membership, so sponsorships, and economies of scale are working there.

I am members of both of those sites, and happily pay my hosting fee at Astrobin (primarily because I do not have to find anywhere else, and I continue to get very nice views despite my not being so active in imaging these days).

I see IIS as primarily a chat site, and a sales board. And frankly the only time some people seem to appear is to flog something in the Classifieds. So yes, if your only selling stuff then be prepared to kick in a percentage of your sale. In recent years, a fair number of older, or longer appearing members, seem to have pulled back a lot. Some if this is likely due to the weariness of age, illness, and a lack of a sense of community which has been noticed. There used to be regular dark site trips in the eastern states, and local trips and events, all if which build the sense if community. All if the big star parties in NSW are gone, one of which was put on by IIS. Even the Astro Society is winding down. Poor Al Meehan is stuck with heaps of Star Party equipment, and a lack of interest in people helping out. Simply, the sense of community and mateship has gone. I organised a couple of Central Coast Morning Tea to get people talking and may be planning. The last time we met last year there were three of us that showed up, and a cornerstone member Al Lovett has sold off his astro equipment. We lost a big personality earlier this year, Alex E, controversial at times, but he got folks excited.

While I appreciate the issues that IIS faces, they are not unique issues, as many people are time poor, aging, and frankly everyone is squeezed financially, especially those with mortgages.

The future may have to look to fees but there needs to be some value associated with charging. And the older cadre needs more help from the younger ones to keep the excitement level up. In my opinion.

[dugnsuz]

Happy to pay an Annual subscription a la Astrobin to help retain IIS.

As for frightening off potential subscribers, perhaps a trial period/subscription similar to some apps could be used with an option for the potential subscriber to bail before money is debited, or stay if they like IIS??

It really would be a shame to lose the best, most trustworthy Astro classifieds section too.

[Saturnine]

Mikes post about a possible shutdown is not the best news I've heard today but going by the response already there seems to be plenty of forum members who would happily pay a yearly fee or donation semi regularly to keep the site afloat. That includes me, happy to pay in some way, maybe via Paypal or similar.
Maybe a poll could be launched to get an insight as to how many of the thousands of members would be happy to pay for the forum to stay alive. Would certainly miss the forums and classifieds if it were to disappear.

[pmrid]

The subscription proposal may not be the best if it creates problems with BAS statements, annual returns, accountants etc. Similar problems amay also arise with a User-Pays fee for Classifieds. Perhaps the donations idea is better suited from that point of view.

Personally, I favour a user-pays fee on sales of equipment. But there are numerous problems that go with it such as how to collect. Those who understand how PayPal works could possibly suggest a way to make it work.

For my part, IIS has become an entrenched part of my astro experience and I would lament it's passing greatly.

[Leo.G]

Forced subscriptions tend to annoy certain people and I have found a simple request for donations works great and members will give what they can inline with the value of the forum to each individual. Any shortfall is as simple as "we need a little more to cover costs" and members are only too happy to help out.

I run a small forum (past 6 years as administrator) and it's around $400US per 2 years for servers/hosting fees for VPS hosting with a company called A2 hosting.com. Unmanaged hosting for those with the time and abilities is cheap, managed hosting becomes a lot dearer. Web hosting is also cheap through them.

I can not afford any such payments myself for the forum and didn't start it but was asked to take over as administrator when the original owner had mental health problems. I was also administrator on the previous forum with 3,000,000 members world wide, again, fully funded by donations but I had absolutely nothing to do with the financial side of that place. I was asked to step up when the owner had a child and no longer had the time but I was happy for him to handle the financial side of the business. I believe that site cost $1500 per month going back as far as 2007.

The little forum I run, sadly members are dropping like flies (small community discussion forum for members of a much larger defunct forum to keep in touch, some members just got old and passed away sadly). Solid riendships were formed over the 17 years of the much larger forum being up and a lot of members became good online friends. It's just a place for us to keep in touch basically and discuss common interests and maintain friendships formed over a lot of years of getting to know each other.
Every time it comes time to renew servers there's a couple of things I do as the administrator. I have my son search out the best deals/hosts (he programs, runs servers and understands a lot of the finer details that I don't) and I put out a request for donations. At last renewal there were only around 10 members in a position to donate but the funds came in without a hitch in the shortest possible time to maintain the place. There's no donation lists kept or published and everyone participating in the forum are thanked for their contributions, whether financial or content to keep the place interesting. I've found in the past paid subscriptions tend to give members a sense of entitlement.

I have read on here in the past the owner/administrator doesn't want to make it a subscription forum and I wholeheartedly agree. I've also seen mention from a lot of members where they would be only too happy to make a donation to keep the forum running. Those in a position would do so without question. There's absolutely nothing wrong with accepting donations to keep the forum alive. A lot of people would really miss the place were it to go down.
I myself would like to add to the list of members who would be only too happy to donate. The trick is no precise amount expected, whatever people can afford/are prepared to donate. The funds would roll in so fast and would keep the place running.
If the administrator reads my post a couple of tricks, old hosts tend to be like insurance companies and add loyaltyfees to keep pricing cheap for new clients so it's best to shop around when renewals are due and multi year sign ups save a considerable amount of money.

My two cents worth but I'm happy to donate $50 if needed.

[leon]

Nice one Leo, I'm with you and the rest of the members, where is the donate button.

Leon

[mental4astro]

Hold on a minute folks,

Before getting too carried away, think a little about where IIS is now & how it got to be so from its hay day some 10 years ago.

Look for all the money raising ways you care for, but if the basis isn't there to maintain it, and it is in desperate need for maintenance & updating, what are you putting your money down for?

Mike, do you want to continue with IIS? Because if Terry is already gone, it looks to all still fall on you, mate, and you have already mentioned in this thread that you are way too busy to make more replies in the very thread you started asking to "fix" IIS. And if you don't want to continue, who will pick it up? This is far more fundamental than a donation button.

Mike, that you are tired of IIS, I get it. I really do. All power to you, brother. You have done an amazing job starting this up. It may well be time to let it go. It is an option too.

[gregbradley]

I would back this. Subscription model is what Astromart uses and they also have membership levels with different privileges such as different coloured fonts for ads.

Greg.

[AstroViking]

IIS was the first astro forum I joined, and it would be sad to see it disappear.

The classifieds section is great - I've bought both my scopes and my camera from here. I've looked at other astro buy/sell places and none of them can compare to IIS.

Similarly, the sense of community is really strong. Other forums don't seem to have the same atmosphere as we have here.

I'd be happy to pay an annual subscription fee to keep the place running.

V.

[iceman]

There's definitely points to consider in this, which I have already thought about. But don't have answers yet.

My interest in space & astronomy is still there, but not in a practical sense and not in a way that requires a lot of my time. We've seen countless times over the last 20 years people come and go.. some people rediscovered the hobby after many years away from it. Some people left the hobby after many years in it. That's only natural.

The easiest solution (for me) is to simply let it die - people will naturally find other places to congregate.

However, if there's ways to keep the site and community going, I'm keen to explore those options because this site is 20 years old! There's a lot to be proud of, and with some effort , it might be the chance to reinvigorate it - with help.
That is, finding someone who can help maintain the site or forums more. The moderators (RB, h0ughy, sheeny) and Suzy on FB have done a fantastic job keeping things ticking along. Whether it's them (they're tired too!) or someone else who has the inclination, energy, etc to help maintain things, would be required.

I definitely know that we can't stay on the current hosting site. I'll need to pay the current bill to keep the site going while I work on finding another provider, getting on a new platform (modern version of vBulletin etc), and can still get the marketplace side going. There's a lot of custom code Terry did to get IceTrade like it is now. So any new solution won't be exactly the same.




I was kind of alluding to this too.. there's definitely elements of truth here and that's natural with any community of any kind - online or in person. There's always changes, people come and go, and it requires a lot of work (and new blood) to keep the community invigorated.

[Peter Ward]

Perhaps take on the AstroMart.com model. Charge advertisers in the Buy/Swap/Sell section to make a listing ($5?) or have a two tiered user system...want to sell stuff? Then pay $15 a year...hardly a big impost.

[blindman]

Maybe gov.au can help instead sending hundreds of millions abroad for nothing

[Nikolas]

How about an icetrade system online like Peter suggests and then a reinvigorated private Aussie/NZ only iceinspace facebook page. Maybe even an Iceinspace classifieds facebook page. I know some of our more fossilised members are not facebook lovers but it may be a solution? Just make sure we have more admins/moderators, happy to do the facebook admin stuff as I am already admin/mod on other facebook astro pages.

[leon]

Although I would be sad to see IIS go, I will utter the line I tell my Alice sometimes when we speak of certain things and events that happen around us and in our own lives, and that is: "Nothing Lasts Forever" :sadeyes:

Leon:thumbsup:

[SimmoW]

Sad, but things seem to be changing so much tech wise, so I kind of expected this. Discord and other such things seem to be used a lot more lately. Not much development/renovation here, a consequence of the old system being used.

Issues raised now reveal some real risks of losing the amazing contributions from members. Anyone know if a full archive of posts has been taken on the way back machine or anywhere else? I've just checked and I couldn't find a full archive.

I often search here for ideas and solutions, so its loss would be a disaster for the community.

I see a big opportunity for a newer retailer like Sidereal Trading to step in and take it over and host permanently on their site, aligning their Aussie business direct with its base.

[SimmoW]

Haha yes, the inevitable theory of entropy, so ironic here!

[iborg]

Hi All

My 2c - for now, make a donation, then the site can keep going for another year (I think).

This will give some time to find a good solution for all, Mike included.

I hope it keeps going!


Philip

[MortonH]

Just donated $30.

[leon]

Hey Morton, I have been searching for where to donate, ;) however it has escaped me, so can someone please direct me to the right place please :shrug:

Thank You.

Leon:thumbsup:

[sharkbite]

Leon - its on the bottom left of screen, below "The Sun Now". you will likely need to scroll down a bit

[BlakPhoenix]

Hi Mike, I have some servers that I run private web hosting on. Hit me up with a PM and we can chat about the requirements you need for IIS and if I can help.

[Paul Haese]

I would be happy to make a subscription fee if that is required. The site serves as a source of community for online astroheads.

[Paul Haese]

Donated $20 just now.

[leon]

Thanks for that if it were any bigger I would trip over it.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Leon:thumbsup:

[leon]

Hope $40.00 will help.

Leon

[Startrek]

I just donated $20 as well
PayPal doesn’t work, use the direct banking details
Come on folk , let’s keep it going for at least another year or two until a permanent solution can be reached

Martin

[MortonH]

The DONATE button Paypal link is broken but Mike posted this yesterday:

...you can still paypal to paypal@iceinspace.com.au, or the BSB/Acc# are still valid.

[stringscope]

I have just donated

[ronson]

Donation done. Hope we can raise the needed money soon. Let us know how it goes Mike.

Btw, do you have any website and forum stats such as file size, db size, page views, bandwidth usage which could help looking for alternatives.

[FlashDrive]

Same Here ....I'm In. :)

[The_bluester]

Another forum that I have been on for 15 years or so has a voluntary donation gig, it has kept it afloat for the last decade or so. A lot of the regulars (Including me) donate on a semi regular basis. Occasionally things get a bit thin and a bit more of a deliberate donation drive is done. People always step up when that happens.

I personally detest Facebook for the kind of function that forum sites have always been around for, mainly as you have to go looking for the content you want and convince the FB algo to actually show it to you. Recently it has been feeding me a steady diet of advertising and AI produced dross and finding the actual user content I actually want is near impossible. I would hate to see a site like this replaced by that experience, even if I am not on here as much as I used to be.

[AstroViking]

Donation just submitted.

V.

[N1]

Likewise

[astronobob]

Donated very similarly :thumbsup: :poke: :cool2:

[AstralTraveller]

I love IIS and am willing to help it survive. Donation just sent. I think astronomy in Aust needs something like IIS lest we become atomised and lose interest in this wonderful hobby. I don't say much but I do visit regularly and truly enjoy the images, the news and the chat. I also imagine that the imagers appreciate somewhere to showcase their work.

It seems to me that the financial aspect can be solved pretty simply, either by some sort of fee or a regular donation drive. Just look at the response to this SOS. The thing is that I, and apparently many others, were not prompted by the Donation button that we scroll past every day. So Joe's suggestion of a regular email to the effect "OK folks, time to pay the bills. We need $XX in the next fortnight." might be sufficient. Personally I'm happy to pay a subscription but I can see the arguments against one.

The other issue is work to keep the site running. I'm retired and so have a bit of time and would be willing to assist, if I have any relevant skills.

I'm a member of a small, some might say tiny, astronomy club. A few people contribute to the running of the club but at any one time most of the work is carried by 2-4 enthusiastic members. There is a slow but regular turnover of leadership and in this way the club has survived for >60 years. I used to go to a bluegrass jam (I'm a very, very poor musician and they were very tolerant.). It was run by one bloke and after 16 years, during the COVID shutdown, he decided that he had done enough (and he had). Now people strum at home and, if they are like me, are doing less and less of that.

I don't know if we need an 'IIS Society' - there are overheads to running a society that perhaps we don't need - but it seems that we need some sort of structure/arrangement so that the site can outlive the individual. Any thoughts?

[gjr80]

Donation sent.

Gary

[Stefan Buda]

Donation sent.

[Nikolas]

There are so many astronomical societies in Australia could we not ask them for some support even if it is an annual donation/sponsorship from each of them? Most of us are members of these societies.

[Leo.G]

Donation sent.

[gts055]

Donation sent, hoping the website and all the knowledge and history held here is not lost.
Cheers Mark H

[ChrisD]

I agree, while I and many others would happily support subscriptions, unless the site has something to offer that cannot be found at any of the free forums, it's going to be difficult long term to attract new members. Be aware that there are consumer law and tax implications of fundraising/subscriptions, they differ from state to state.

From what I've read there are 3 problems here:
1. The immediate payment or reimbursement of the approx. $2000 to keep the IIS open.
2. Find a solution to the long term viability of IIS. Some forums are owned or sponsored by astronomy retailers.
3. Rehosting and data migration.

I suggest we address item 1 first to buy time to look at 2 and 3.



I've donated through paypal to help keep IIS open.

Chris

[kalon]

Would you consider Discord? It has pretty much all you want except it is chat rather than forum-based, and is a couple of hundred dollars annually. You would miss out on ad revenue but that doesn’t exist by your own report. Or partner with an existing server, like mine (Lonosham Observatory) or Bintel’s, but then you’re risking diluting your brand…

[tempestwizz]

This site has been a great and trusted resource for many years. $20 donation sent.
Thanks for the efforts of all involved.

[AstroViking]

The last thing I want to see here is for IIS to turn into a chat system like Discord or FarceBook.

Have you ever tried searching for anything on those platforms?

If you're not watching the endless streams of text (yes, they can be broken out into channels and sub-threads), you miss stuff. There is no way those platforms can replicate what we have here.

My preference is to keep IIS as a forum, like it is now, with all the separate topic areas and (most importantly) the search capabilities. This feature alone saved me hours of frustration when I was starting out - simply because everyone else had gone through the same thing and provided answers here.

I'm also aware of the massive task in migrating the site to a new home. I've quickly added up how many posts there are, across all the areas (and I've probably missed some). There are over 1.4 million posts, many with attached images, and then there are all the articles, reviews and what-not written by members.

To lose this resource would not be a good outcome, in my opinion.

Regards,
V.

[Pierre_C]

I like this idea. Four societies each paying $500 each year for server costs would add up to $2000 each year.

It might also entrench some shared institutional ownership of site administration, which would outlive any individual.

Perhaps set up a combined videoconference with the society presidents to workshop ideas - what IIS is, what the problem is, what the proposed migration solution is, what they might want, what they might gain, how they might be able to contribute, and whether they have any other ideas?

Perhaps an initial investment of $1000 per society for establishment and migration costs could also be sought to purchase expert IT assistance for a refresh and migration; or one of the societies may have an expert volunteer to help do this?

There are also New Zealand societies - I am not sure if they have an umbrella organisation that might be interested in formally being part of something like this.

[iceman]

Thanks for all your support, and to those who have generously donated.



This is exactly the approach I'm taking - get #1 out of the way first.

The donations up to this point appear to have been enough to buy another year and get enough time to work on #2 and #3.

I've had the hosts on my back and was able to get an extension until mid-next week, but looks like that will be fine now. Thanks to everyone's support.

I'll have more to say when I get more time, but I really appreciate all the posts and all the donations.

[CoolhandJo]

Agreed would pay membership

[CoolhandJo]

Just paid 20

[Leo.G]

That's a very good start and it's obvious members want IIS to stay and donations aren't a problem.
A forum as good as IIS is well worth preserving.

[gregmc]

Charging a fee could shut people out that you really want on the site. If you are selling something to upgrade, a new person may not see the value (yet) of joining (paying) and won’t see your add to buy gear.

Perhaps look at this from a different angle.
It’s an Australian resource. Could it be something that Australian clubs collectively fund for its membership so the entry fee would be belonging to an affiliated society.

Then have the collective societies haverepresentaion on an organising/funding/direction committee.

We should have (or bring back) this communication between societies in Australia anyway and this could be an extra reason.

Greg
(VP of the Northern Sydney astro society)

[leon]

Nice one guys, it seems that we might have saved the day in the short term, lets hope all the top "Techy" people here can sort it out, ;) I personally wouldn't stand a chance.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

We need Alex back, he'd fix it.:)

Leon:thumbsup:

[DavidTrap]

Donation sent. Best of luck!

DT

[AlexN]

I would be happy to step up to help rebuild it, reenergize it and run it, should your interest be gone Mike.

Pm me if you'd like to discuss.

[MortonH]

I've set up an automatic payment of $2 per week to the IIS bank account. I'll never miss it but IIS gets $104 a year. It's a bargain considering the amount of time I spend on this site and the enjoyment I get from it.

[iborg]

I'll do much the same as Morton when we have a better idea of the future.

I have this setup for a couple of other things that I also highly value.

Philip

[wasyoungonce]

Just Paypal $50 but will do more in future. A subscription idea is ok also pay to sell fee....This site has and is an aussie institution .....thanks Mike! I hope you can "find the path"!

[Jackstar]

Just sent a donation of $20, great value, I like the idea of a weekly $1 or 2, won’t miss it at all. I’ll wait to see what settles from here.

[dugnsuz]

Onya Alex :thumbsup: - donations are essential but reading Mike’s original post, it seems like the longevity of IIS will depend on someone like yourself with the time and appropriate skills stepping up and moving the forum forward.
All the best
Doug

[wasyoungonce]

Yes that’s very kind offer.

It’s a pity big corporate cannot be encouraged to donate. Obviously mike has explored this. Maybe a “go fund me page”? Wish I had some answers and was younger in better health to assist. All I can do is offer stoopid suggestions and some dollars.

[Ramius]

While I may not post much I don't think I would have taken up astrophotography without this site so would be happy to contribute.

[EpickCrom]

$30 donation sent. Long live Ice In Space for the benefit of Australian Astronomy :thumbsup:

[ColHut]

Myswag.org is partly funded through donations and they have a nice way of letting people know how things are going:

http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=57231.0

Worth a shot?

[JC17]

I would also be happy to support by an annual subscription. I will also send $20 now to help out!
The IceTrade Classifieds may also be an income source? Perhaps a small charge to post an add?

[Nikolas]

Donation sent, Seriously we should consider getting the various Aussie space societies to chip in. What better way to expand Astronomy in this country if we could get them all to work together.

[AlexN]

$100 Donated.

[NCRAW]

Donation made.

Thank you for your hard work.

[iceman]

I've sent you a PM

[AstroViking]

It's fantastic to see the IIS community band together to keep the place running. After seeing Mike's last message, the prospect of the site moving to a new home makes me happy.

However, don't expect any help from the ASV. I wandered into their FarceBook page last night. Someone had posted an "IIS is in trouble" message. The responses from the ASV people (and the president, in particular) were along the lines of "just let it die already".

To say that I was disappointed in such a short-sighted attitude would be an understatement.

V.

[wasyoungonce]

I'm also concerned funding got to the "scraping the barrel" level with advertisers et el. Also my ignorance of not even thinking about it. Too caught up in my own world.

[leon]

"just let it die already".

Well that is just not very nice, is it, lets stick it up them and make IIS prosper

Leon

[bojan]

Yes, very, very narrow view.. Now I know why I never joined ASV ;).
Well. they are local to Vic it seems, and IIS is more Au oriented, even international to some extend.
It is curious why IIC lost adds..

[ahmed_haider]

Donated to ice inspace paypal account. Happy to play my part to keep this community alive!
As a first step perhaps the admin can make a post in all of the classifieds sub-pages asking sellers and buyers to donate an amount for the services we get for free.

[Matthieu]

Donated via BSB. I read the classifieds everyday so it's almost like a community service provided by ISS.

As for long term options, personally, I'm not a fan of subscriptions. As a hobby, it's already not the easiest to attract people so the less barrier to entry there are, the better. That said, I can see the merit of a once a year contribution to be allowed to post classified listings. I'd avoid asking buyers to contribute as a successful classified page needs as many buyers as possible.

Regarding comments around refreshing ISS as a community, something that might reduce ISS attractiveness is that it's cumbersome on mobile phones whereas Facebook is best on them. I think this clunkiness makes it less attractive for new entrants in the hobby. I'm wondering it a different forum package might come with a builtin mobile experience.

[Leo.G]

IIS is the one Astronomy forum in Australia where you can get help with models and equipment common to the country, along with amazing members who can and do do anything to help.others. Joshua Bunn with his design/machining services at incredibly reasonable prices, Stefan Buda with his amazing abilities and a wealth of information from people in the know. It's all relevant to Australian conditions, sky features and a LOT of experienced high end members who don't mind helping out with information.
It would be the biggest travesty were it to disappear and while I like CN and SG lounge everything is Northern hemisphere models, availability and pricing. Still a wealth of knowledge but local knowledge is the best.


Then you add in the world class astrophotographers and not only their wealth of knowledge, their insanely incredible images, we need all of that. Members offering 3D printing services, members making amazing projects with a Pi/Arduino to automate many tasks, so many members and such a lousy memory to mame them all but they know who they are.

The classified section which has allowed me as a broke disability pensioner to acquire some very nice deals and even receive some goodies for the cost of the postage, items I wouldn't normally be able to afford otherwise on a disability pension and incredibly kind, caring, generous members who have gone right out of their way to help not just me but many members here. I've been given older dedicated cameras I could never afford to buy, free and the only way I can give back is to try and search for answers for people with problems, I have a lot of time on my hands and a reasonable amount of knowledge on many subjects despite declaring myself an idiot frequently.
IIS has to survive and I think the influx of offers and donations has proven many people feel exactly the same way.

[alan meehan]

Ican understand Mike maybe a facebook page is all we need when time goes on its hard to keep up i just stepped down myself as president of the newcastle astronomical society because after 10 yrs in the job i was tired ,i love icein space would gladly donate to it even gumtree now charge to advertise there I still love all things astro and have made some lifetime friends on this site thanks everyone see what happens ALAN

[leon]

Na Alan, "maybe a Facebook page is all we need" I and I expect many older members would be gone.

Leon

[AstroViking]

The last thing we need is a FarceBook-like site.

A forum like this, with separate threads, discussion areas, and, MOST IMPORTANTLY a searchable archive so people can find information they are looking for is what I want. (And probably most of the people here feel the same, too.)

Yes, I am parroting what Leo G just said.

The last thing I want is a continuously scrolling thread of (un)consciousness where it's impossible to follow a conversation.

Rant over.

V.

[toc]

Probably a generational thing, but I dont really 'get' discord as a replacement for a forum - I do enjoy some of the informal live events/group chats we do on the ASV planetary Facebook group, so I guess discord could function in a similar way?

In terms of IIS, I guess the bottom line is that Mike is not obliged to keep IIS going if he lacks the motivation to do so. I am more than happy to donate to keep it going for another year at least :thumbsup:

I was thinking though that I really only use the classifieds and look at the DIY forums - You are lucky to get more than one or two replies to gear related questions here, but that is to be expected as there is just not enough of an audience to be able to compete with the likes of CN when it comes to questions about gear in particular.

Excluding local stuff like classifieds, I guess you have to consider what the value is of an Australian focused Astronomy site :question:

Not saying it shouldnt exist, but I guess look at the things that would make people want to post/visit here? Obviously there is that fact that we are in the Southern Hemisphere and have different targets and priorities. It could probably be more of a hub for all the astro societies for events, but I dont know if that is something that could be achieved.

I dont really like the idea of a site being beholden to ads and vendors, because that leads to censorship of posts that are critical of products/vendors, so I would support a yearly donation, just like astrobin.

[JeniSkunk]

Just learned of this and donated $20 to the IIS PayPal

[gaa_ian]

Hi Mike
It would be a great loss to not have IIS, not very active ATM myself, but IIS, the Astrocamps & everyone who started this up and kept it going all this time is the genesis of the business I now have.
Anything I can do to help I will.
We NEED a national Astronomy community.
With no national Magazine it’s even more vital.
How about a one off donation drive (Wikipedia style) to keep things running
Then work on a sustainable solution going forward.
Would be pleased to hear from you
Ian - Nightskysecrets

[AnakChan]

Didn't notice the BSB option! Donated!

[Ryderscope]

There is one aspect to this discussion that seems to be missing and which plays into the strategic direction that IIS is, or should be, heading. Firstly let me say that it would be tragic to see IIS fold. I read the latest posts every day and have used the classifieds on many occasions. We should do whatever we can to keep this going but let’s have a look at what this means.

What strikes me is the currency of the site generally and exactly what format and structure IIS should adopt in the future. Whilst the forums and the classifieds are very active, the rest of the site is not.

If a new or prospective user/member enters the IIS web site via the home page, they will see articles and resources and other items which are at least 10 years old at best and very much out of date. This first impression would deter many from going forward as they would not realise how active and valuable the forums are. It is quite apparent that when IIS first started the resources, articles and equipment reviews were contributed by members on a regular basis but this is no longer the case. The equivalent sections on Cloudy Nights are quite active (acknowledging the fact that they have a much larger market).

So from a strategic direction viewpoint, IIS needs to consider exactly what format it is going to adopt. My thoughts are that we may need to just do away with the non forum based content and re image IIS as a specific forum based entity which, along with the classified ads, is where we all go to on a regular basis.

Mike has done a fantastic job in starting IIS and we owe him many many thanks for creating this fantastic resource. I fully support his current position and that we need to look at different options going forward.

In terms of options and to throw my hat into the ring here, I agree with one observation that the Discord platform is not suitable as a replacement for IIS. It lacks the specific structured threads that are very useful for tracking particular issues. I haven’t researched other options and don’t have the skills to recommend a particular technology. If it would be possible then maybe the current site could be reconfigured into a specific forum structure only, whilst retaining all existing forum based content.

I note one observation regarding content on mobile devices. This is an important issue that may be critical for newer members but does also come with an increased level of complexity.

So in summary and apologies for long post, not only do we need to look at funding the site, we must look at the objectives of IIS and the most appropriate format and structure to suit the needs of our members.

Clear skies,
Rodney

[netwolf]

late to this but I hope this place continues , whatever we can do to help we will.

[Crater101]

Rodney speaks well.
I've never been an admin or a mod for any online site, but I've known one or two people who performed those roles, and am aware of the commitment of time and effort that it takes behind the scenes to keep a forum like IIS running, let alone to set it up in the first place. The folks who started, and who keep this forum going, have my utmost respect, and sincere thanks.
I'm not on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter / "X", Instagram, or any of the social media sites because for the most part I don't trust them. To migrate the site to one of those platform would see me leave, I suspect along with a number of other members. IIS is my only almost-daily online resource.
IIS is a magnificent community, and has a far better feeling and camaraderie than many other online forums. You can read it in the posts, and it's why I came here. I've learned a lot (and still have a long way to go) and would like to support the site continuing.
This is a great place - let's keep it going.

[leon]

Yes Warren I am with you, this place has been so helpful to me and I visit daily often may times a day.

Social Media, I don't use it at all and as you, this is my only online gathering, so to speak.

If it goes to Facebook or other I too would move on with thanks to IIS for many fantastic years.:sadeyes:

But then I am from the old school, as many other members.:shrug:

Leon :thumbsup:

[wasyoungonce]

Leon I am the same! I see social media as a pox on society run with little social governance balance mostly at the whim of whoever owns it and is at the helm! Just look at “X” or what ever it’s called nowdays. Full of :disaffected; conspiracists, far right, far left, and foreign national influence (who are not there for fun) as d snake oil sales. Some media is nothing but 15 second attention grabbers that frankly makes me run….if I could.

I abhor such things and same as Leon love the atmosphere here while allows views right or wrong but mainly built on those helping each other. No better ethos base could be found; made or moulded.

So yeah I cannot shift to social media and enjoy the current format too much. Just like whirlpool form …some small tinkering but changing what is not broken will see it’s Denise

I understand this has exacted a great toll on iceman and it’s drained him of his essence he’s given all and reward has been little …advertisers and funding desertion must leave him feeling “what must I do”…but this is just part of the issue you can only squeeze an orange once for its goodness. So I hope iceman and those that be can find a way

I am happy to donate or pay per year this forum has been good to me and I do not want to see it go ….but can do little to help except offer dollars and “giddy-on-up” words

Cheers

Brendan

[norm]

Just donated. Thanks Mike for your efforts, it’s a big ask and we’re all indebted to you.

[FlashDrive]

Donated today ....Thank you Mike

Col.

[erick]

I'm late to this thread. :( Donation made to help funding the new ideas for continuation of this valuable site. :thumbsup:

Many thanks Mike, for your vision and continued efforts over a long period.

[Renato1]

Just saw this thread and made a donation.

My idea - keep the site free, but have optional membership, where the membership allows one to access the Ice in Space classifieds for buying and selling.
Regards,
Renato.

[Londoner]

Donated today ....Thank you Mike.


Mick

[skysurfer]

How can I make a donation ? I have no Paypal and live in the EU.


I use this forum intermittently, beside CloudyNights, the latter being American in most cases. Occasionally I travel to southern locations like South Africa or Australia for doing astrophotography or visually viewing the southern skies.
I like this forum much.

[Logieberra]

Would happily pay a $20/yr membership fee. This site got me into the hobby!

[AnakChan]

Bottom of the left bar where you'll see an icon Donate IceInSpace

[DebinOz]

I am in another large group which uses the Mighty Networks platform. This works on computers and also has a mobile app. We each pay $50 a year to maintain that site and it offers fantastic opportunities for sub groups, member to member messaging, etc. Our local Astronomical societies are using the Member Jungle platform, which works on mobile devices.

[Addos]

has anyone reflected on why after the massive influx of interest during covid, this forum seems to be dying?

[Stonius]

Is it dying in terms of engagement? Mikes issues seemed to be financial / time stresses, not engagement related.


Even if engagement has dropped a bit, that's no reason to shoot the puppy. IIS fills a niche that nothing else does.

[Stonius]

I'm admit I'm dumb when it comes to such things, but do existing forum sites allow archive integration? Would it be as simple as writing a script to translate the backend database into the format the new site requires?


Like I said, I'm dumb on such things - I'm sure there is a reason why it can't be done, I'm just curious what it is.

[leon]

has anyone reflected on why after the massive influx of interest during covid, this forum seems to be dying?

As said it is not dying we wont let it, it just needs a little help.

Leon

[morls]

I'm trying to make a donation, but the link takes me to a paypal page that says the link is broken...

[bojan]

Try this (post #17)

paypal to paypal@iceinspace.com.au, or the BSB/Acc# are still valid.

[morls]

Got it, thanks Bojan. Just donated.

Thanks Mike and everyone else involved in running this forum, it's a wonderful resource.

Stephen

[Atmos]

I haven’t really been posting much in the last year or two but like a fly on the wall, I’ve continually been hanging around ;)

I tend to believe that subscriptions to use the forum, although solving the immediate problem, could slow down or stop new members into the future. Peter Ward did have a good option of putting on a subscription onto the classifieds (i think this is better than a % of sales). The biggest wealth on this forum is the two decades of information and putting that behind a paywall could stop new growth.

Moving this forum to Facebook or Discord; not something that’ll work in my opinion. Forums allow for a topic separation that make them functional. Plus, there is so much knowledge that’s already on here!

[Anth10]

Well put Col - I tend to agree with that.
Hope resolution is reached.
A

[dabbeldi]

I have only just seen this thread, even though I am on Iceinspace regularly.

I am in favour of the voluntary donation model. I'm personally happy to donate to things like Wikipedia and the Inaturalist app to keep them afloat and keep the big corporations out of discussions I really enjoy. Having read the entire thread, there seem to be enough people around who think the same.

I value Iceinspace, so am happy to contribute this way.My resolution is to post here more often as well.

[Drac0]

Hi Mike,

Took a few months off-line so missed all this (first time in over 30 years!). My donation is also coming.

I'm happy to go with a donation model, even putting out a call every couple of months if needed. I would also support a yearly subscription to SELL on the classifieds - it would eliminate any scammers & still allow access for new members to make use of the site. I don't really like the idea of a subscription just to use the rest of the forum, that may drive too many away & prevent encouraging new members to become involved.

I think the site itself needs a "refresh" and more regular updates. It's been about 10 years since the last review or article was done. People need to be encouraged to write on what they know, not just on the forums but instead keeping at least the article section new & fresh - so much has changed. I would do some, but my lack of real knowledge would be a let down. And some of the links & info are so out of date (IceInSpace AstroCamp???). We need something new!

While it has been over 20 years since I ran websites & forums I'm willing to help in any way I can if you need it.

Cheers,
Mark

[thebonz]

I Just saw this alarming thread
I would support the forum in the way it seems fit to carry on.
Regards, John

[alpal]

I noticed the site was down for over 12 hours today.

Maybe someone could buy the site from you?

cheers
Allan

[AlexN]

I would consider (and made Mike aware during our discussion a couple of months back) buying the site...

Still keen to have that discussion if that's the direction Mike wanted to go.

[RB]

Sorry guys, Houghy forgot to put the phone back onto the acoustic coupler before he left yesterday.

:lol:

[alpal]

Ohh really?

Well - is the site for sale?

if so - how much? - my PMs work if you'd rather be silent in public.

cheers
Allan

[RB]

I’ve also got a bridge for sale if anyone’s interested.

:lol:

(I don’t own IIS Allan) :D

[alpal]

OK - the first post on this thread seemed to imply that you did own it.

So - maybe the owner could chime in?

cheers
Allan

[alpal]

It says here:

https://www.iceinspace.com.au/aboutus.html

[RB]

I’m Andrew a.k.a RB (Rocket Boy).
I’m neither iceman Mike nor mojo Terry.


:)

[alpal]

Thanks Andrew.
If this site was ever closed down it would be very sad to lose
all of the technical information.
That happened on another site that I used to write posts on
called the Radio Board.
Just a few small pieces of it got archived:
https://web.archive.org/web/20200704000540/http://theradioboard.com/rb/viewforum.php?f=2

Basically 99.9% of it was lost forever.
I did my best to recreate my articles on another radio board here:
https://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=12
and so did many other people.
I reposted: circuits, designs and photos etc.

That could all have been avoided if the owner had offered the site for sale
before it was all closed down.
I'm sure someone would have bought it.
It's possible that the owner died before he could sell it.

I hope this site can be saved by someone?

cheers
Allan

[EpickCrom]

Nah Andrew mate, we know that you are the owner :lol:;);)

[RB]

What a shame such a wonderful resource as Radio Board was lost Allan.
I love stuff like that.

I can't offer any extra info on what Mike will do with IIS, that's up to him.

It sure was hard to go 24 hours without IIS during the recent outage.
Can't imagine if it ever disappears.

:sadeyes:

[RB]

:lol:

Just doing what I can to help out around here Joe.

:)

[leon]

Na he is telling fibs, :Phe really runs IIS in the background :lol::lol:

Have a nice day Andrew :thumbsup:

Leon :thumbsup:

[alpal]

Thanks Andrew,
yes - I look at this site and Cloudy Nights almost every day and I always look at
the latest pictures posted and I like to read the technical articles.
This one is the best in the Southern Hemisphere.
We have better targets than the Northern Hemisphere.
I only wish I could use my telescope to
get out and take some of my own pictures.
The light pollution is too strong were I live -
night is turned into day.
I can barely see the Southern Cross.

cheers
Allan

[RB]

:lol:
Leon, you're like my own personal kryptonite....
I've asked you not to reveal my secret. :lol:



Oh, how terrible about the light pollution Allan.
When I visit Sydney I can't believe how bad it is.

:(

[RB]

We have a good team with Al and David moderating on IIS.
We do our best to keep things in order.

RB
:thumbsup:

[EpickCrom]

Andrew, you, David and Al are doing an outstanding job! We all appreciate your hard work behind the scenes. ISS is the greatest astronomy forum in the southern hemisphere, let's hope we can all keep it going...

Clear Skies
Joe

[RB]

Thank you for your kind words, Joe.

:)

RB

[Shano592]

Although RB did sell me this bridge once...


Darned if I know where to find it. Mangrove Mountain seems such an odd place for a bridge. I'll keep looking for it up there...

[sheeny]

I didn't know Mangrove Mountain had so many bridges! I've got one there too! Bought it of RB (Retail Bridges)...


:P

[RB]

You both own the same bridge.

:D

[Shano592]

:lol:

[AstralTraveller]

I'm just trying to find the bridge. Has anyone seen the bridge? Where's that confounded bridge!

[RB]

:lol:

[RB]

Guys I’m gonna lose my job if I keep spamming Mike’s thread.

:sadeyes:



David, your bridge is in the router I sold you.
:face:

[erick]

Agree - 100% :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[RB]

Eric, thank you so much.

RB
:cheers:

[leon]

Hey Andrew Mike wont care, at least we have some fun here, not like the other Astronomy forums.

As mentioned, this site is honest, clean, safe, and the best i have ever seen and that is because you moderators are the best, you guys are brilliant.

And if this ever falls over it will be a sad day.:sadeyes:

Leon:thumbsup:

[RB]

Thank you Leon, I love working with Al and Dave.
This is a great forum and the members are terrific.
The last 20 years have been amazing on here, made lots of friends and have learnt a lot.

The great thing is that we can laugh at ourselves and still be friends.
And that’s special.

Cheers my friend.

RB
:cheers:

[RB]

Leon, btw, dose you wanna buy a bridge too?

:jump2:

[AstralTraveller]

Don't do it. Mine was routered.

[varshnei]

Just saw this now and donated $50. Site (and classifieds) have been invaluable

[AstroViking]

As a question to the site admins and moderators - now that the IIS community has stepped up and contributed funding to keep the lights on (as it were), what plans are there for next year?

I fear that without a serious plan for the site's future we will see a repeat of this, and that the lights will go out.

V.

[RB]

Steve, only Mike can answer that question.
The mods don’t know either, we just keep an eye on things here.
(And sell bridges as a side hustle) :lol:

Cheers
RB

[iceman]

The plan is to find alternate hosting this year, somewhere that is easier to setup and maintain, and probably cheaper.

[Drac0]

Hopefully you can find something suitable Mike. Just know the community is behind you & really do appreciate your efforts.

Cheers,
Mark

[Startrek]

Mike,
Appreciate your time and effort
Hopefully you find a suitable hosting
Thanks

Martin

[Leo.G]

I've used A2 hosting to run a forum for the past 4 years and paying for 2 years hosting at a time saves a decent amount of money (in USD).
There have been no issues to date with the host.
Every second year I ask for donations to cover hosting costs and they are usually near enough to the required amount with a little from my own pocket. That's more a lack of members, sadly active membership dropped off during COVID and never recovered.

[Spacedad]

Hi,
Made my donation, I hope it helps.
It is great having an Australian site.
Thanks

[Windston]

+1 to everything stated above. Forums like IIS have far more value (i feel) than new aged facebook groups. I find the quality of discussion from members of a forum like this to be leaps and bounds higher. Not to mention the ability to reference conversations of 20 years ago. Facebook and the likes make it impossible to find any post after it disappears from your feed.


Donating now but happy to provide a small financial contribution annually.

[Shawn]

I have spoken to Mike, and offered to take it over. but I feel the man is too busy to do that, and the emotional attachment ,well its been a long time after all.. The platform needs an upgrade for starters, the For sale section needs to be for paid up members to have the privileged of selling goods or services, IIS may get it sponsors back that way... JMTCW . I would hate see IIS give in to FB..

[leon]

I would hate see IIS give in to FB..

I presume you mean Facebook, :sadeyes: sadly if that happened I would be the first one out of here:sadeyes:

Leon :thumbsup:

[Shawn]

Quite correct Leon, I have been a member of IIS for well over a decade, sadly some of the guys I chatted with have gone, Alex for one, I still miss him..If the issue of running the forum is left for too much longer it will die. I,m not entirely sure it can be resurrected to its former glory..But I,m prepared to give it a go, and have the resources to do it...Be well...;)

[DarkArts]

That's good to hear. And I'd also run a mile from FB.

No disrespect to Mike, but if he doesn't have the time to run IIS properly then surely handing over to someone who can is the better choice (rather than shutting it down)? I'd even volunteer some of my own time (I spent a few years as a volunteer admin on a linux forum ... although I am no doubt quite rusty).

[Shawn]

Well I guess its up to Mr Salway. It is my hope that as he gets older, he will find a second wind, and more time to continue with the legacy, that is IIS. I myself moderate a global BMW forum, why I should I am not sure, the car is 26 years old, It will die before I do...You get what I'm getting at here. Mike knows he has me as a back stop. IIS will never die if I have any influence..And of course NO disrespect to Mike, hes a Stirling bloke, I would like to meet him in person..

[icenov]

Hi
As a new member, I thought a small donation would be appropriate - but the link for PayPal is broken "This organization's page is broken." and so went to the bsb account.
But Paypal is useful and easy. Maybe worth a fix?

[acropolite]

I think a donation meter showing the accumulated funds would be an idea, that way users could see how the site is going financially. I haven't visted or posted for a while but still value the forum and have just donated.

[Nikolas]

Read over the thread there is a paypal solution