EV misinformation.

[Peter Ward]

With a recent post on EV's it jogged a memory about the rubbish that gets spruiked in social and tabloid media about how dangerous EV cars are. I responded to the SMH about one of these outrageous claims a while ago. Hope you enjoy it

As an EV owner, I was interested in the following from The SMH Drive section (dated Feb 21st, 2020) on electric cars:

"According to Vision Australia, more than 380,000 Australians are blind or have low vision, with most citing walking their main means of transport. What? They are not driving? This can't be right! Given some of the idiots that do drive must be blind. I digress...

A 2018 report from Vision Australia and the Monash University Accident Research Centre found 35 per cent of people who are blind or have low vision have been involved in a collision or near-collision with an electric or hybrid vehicle"

So running the actual numbers, some 133,000 visually impaired people have had either been hit or had a near miss with an EV or Hybrid car!

Given there are only 6000 or so EV's or Hybrid vehicles actually on Australian roads at present, this is an extraordinary good effort by EV owners.

In round numbers, each and every EV driver must have run-over or come close to cleaning-up 2 dozen blind people since purchasing their vehicles.

That's quite a score.

I've only managed to just miss a few phone Zombies so far. I'm embarrassed to say my score is still zero for my first golden retriever and white cane carrying owner.

In desperation have tried several runs around my local Spec Savers car park, but to no avail. I guess it's the bright red duco that gives my car away.

As to whether the visually impaired population saw any of the other 19.2 million vehicles on Australian roads headed their way is not made by clear by this astounding survey...which lays the blame squarely at the feet of EV's because they are simply "too quiet" and pose a clear threat to those whose vision is terribly unclear.

The Monash uni accident centre has some explaining to do....why is my score so low? But if truth be told.... their study is a steaming crock of BS.

[FlashDrive]

:lol: .... nice one Peter

[Leo.G]

Yes but the blind people can smell my petrol exhaust fumes and stay out of my way. [/sarcasm]

I didn't know we had such an issue with the blind, what are their guide dogs doing?


You should know how these reports work, never let the truth stand in the way of a good story.

[Peter Ward]

Rather than petrol fumes I probably smelled a rat in this study courtesy my aviation background.

Gross error checks can save your life.
For example on the B747 if the flight time was say 13 hours, you expected the fuel burn to be about 130 ton.

If the flight plan (which was usually accurate within kilograms) showed say 60 tons you knew there was a serious error.

No one did a gross error check on that Monash Study. :rolleyes:

[sharkbite]

yeah i dont know much about being blind...but i know a thing or two about how surveys are done....

the data for the monash report looks like it was generated from 2 focus groups of a few people each, and a survey of about 270 people.

(how sad is this, i downloaded it and skimmed through it)

they did have questions that asked how many times survey participants had a collision or near collision....multiple choice ranging from zero to a few...

I'm just thinking - if i was asked to participate in a 20 minute survey for something that had never affected me (E.g. Blind, but never had a miss or a near-miss) i probably would decline the kind offer to waste my time....

this non-civic attitude would skew the results towards people for whom the subject matter is a concern...

Just sayin...

[Leo.G]

I have called the hybrid Camry "whispering death" after nearly being hit at low speed by a local taxi but it wasn't on the road, it was in a service station/truck stop. They didn't notice I'd stepped out from between the bowsers while looking down at something after having a meal break and taking off while not paying attention. It was no ones fault and while it was close they didn't actually hit me (they really should have been paying attention) but it was so close and I didn't hear a thing. I'm more observant now.


Peter did you live and have a dome at Engadine (or thereabouts, my memory isn't great) back around 94?
I was delivering Crystal soft drinks in the south of Sydney and one customer had a nice dome in the yard, his wife said he was a commercial pilot. From memory I only delivered the drinks when the wife was home. I didn't meet the husband but I would have loved to have had a look at the dome.

[Peter Ward]

It is true you have to have a good look in the reversing camera before moving in an EV. I have surprised many a shopper by having the car move silently.

As for the dome, yes we were in Engadine for a short time. I would have been on the B767 fleet with Qantas then....but it was before '94 and, sorry, we never ordered soft drinks.....just a case of wine or maybe two ;)

[Leo.G]

I believe the gentleman was also importing the domes from memory. It could have been 93 or 94, my memory is like a sieve these days.

[Peter Ward]

Ah...definitely not yours truly. I was not importing domes. My Sirius Observatory (still running well) was made in Queensland.

BTW the Sirius product is simply excellent. Mine is near on 35 years old. Cost me around $7000. So for $200 a year it was one of the best Astro investments I ever made.:thumbsup:

[Steffen]

Really? In 2023 it was a lot more.

[TrevorW]

Yes but they were Tesla's



Not a fan of EV's sorry

[Peter Ward]

I wrote the piece to the SMH back in 2020 and looked up the data then.

[Peter Ward]

Your prerogative.

With the seismic shift from China and European manufacturers ICE cars will be like photographic film, will go the way of the dinosaur.

[TrevorW]

Beg to differ here not for the foreseeable future and definitely not within my lifetime in their current guise , nor do I see Australia achieving emission standards by 2035 or even 2050

[bojan]

It is hard to predict exactly when the really big and fundamental change in car market will happen..

It will depend on power storage (batteries), of course... and how power is generated. It is still VERY hard to compete with petrol energy density.

Currently, batteries are still too expensive (to replace), too small (in capacity and energy density) and too dangerous (to environment and to operate.. what happens in case of accidents? ).


And.. all my cars in Oz were second-hand and I paid 5-10k$ for each one of them. I don't plan to change that strategy (and so the majority of Aussies I think).

[sharkbite]

Yep its going to be a while...

As of January 2023, the total number of registered vehicles in Australia was more than 21 million. That year, the number of passenger vehicles in Australia amounted to approximately 15.33 million. Light commercial vehicles, which accounted for about 3.95 million, came next.

we sell about 1 million passenger cars in australia per yer...

so even if new ICE vehicle sales were banned tomorrow...it would still take 15 years to replace them all...

and they ain't selling that many at the moment.

[Leo.G]

I bought my current EB II Falcon (8/92 build date) as a repairable write off 17 years ago for $650 and it took me 6 months to get it back on the road. It only had 125,000 on the speedo. I don't do a lot of driving, mainly to the local shops and back, it now has around 200,000 on the speedo but is currently unregistered until a new brake master cylinder gets delivered, hopefully early enough today so I can get down for an inspection so I have my car for the weekend to do some shopping.

[sharkbite]

The mighty Ford inline 6.....that engine is only just run in!:lol::lol::lol:

[Peter Ward]

A quick Google search will objectively show the uptake of EV's in Oz is increasing rapidly.

Our first Tesla was an extremely rare bird seven years ago. People often looked twice probably wondering what make it was.

At the time EV sales were about 0.5% of all car sales.

Now they are 8-9% in climbing. In Norway over 90% of new vehicle sales are EV's. I'd happily wager Australia will headed to 50% by 2030.

I am not sure why some think EV's are inherently unsafe...the USA's NHTSA (similar to our ANCAP ) rated Tesla with more than five stars as it had the lowest probability causing of injury to the occupants after a crash *any car ever tested to date* (look it up it you don't believe me)

BTW those that dared to suggest at local camera clubs in the mid 1990's that digital would replace film were similarly met pitch-forks , clubs and flares.

You can ignore history but I'd suggest it will be at your peril...

[Leo.G]

I don't think they are unsafe, I think they are expensive for anyone on a disability pension who was forcibly retired before superannuation became compulsory.
I'm broke not cheap!
I'd love the acceleration, as mentioned, I've driven them in my sons games and the acceleration is amazing with real game physics.

[bojan]

Peter,
I would love to buy your old Tesla for 5 grand (with new tires and new battery ;-)
Let me know when you are selling.

[Nikolas]

MUARC have a track record of fudging figures to suit their agenda, the Motorcycle lobby for starters are still fighting this whole 5kmh over the speed limit means you wont stop in time and kill a kitten

[Peter Ward]

Yep. You wish. :lol:

I candidly admit the tyres were replaced recently.

Its low profile Pirelli's were not cheap!

Around $600 a tyre :jawdrop:

[ChrisD]

I've been close to pulling the trigger on an EV purchase once but backed off. It is stats like this that made me reconsider:

From drive.com.au:
According to a June 2024 McKinsey Mobility Consumer survey – which polled more than 30,000 respondents across various countries including Australia – close to half of Australian (49 per cent) EV owners said they are “very likely” to switch back to traditional petrol and diesel vehicles.

The most popular reason given was subpar charging infrastructure.

I'm going to wait till the stats look better, I wouldn't want to be in the 49% that regretted a $100k decision.

Chris

[louie_the_fly]

close to half of Australian (49 per cent) EV owners said they are “very likely” to switch back to traditional petrol and diesel vehicles.[/I]

I read that article too. I don't know who they surveyed, but everyone I know who has an EV have said they wouldn't go back to an ICE car. In fact, I know people who have upgraded their EVs to new ones several times (the benefits of novated leasing), and others who now have 2 EVs.

Having said that, I love my Cupra EV, but I have no plans on giving up my classic car. A guy's got to have some fun on the weekends. ;)

[Nikolas]

Have a read of this (https://cleantechnica.com/2024/06/27/unpacking-the-mckinsey-mobility-consumer-survey-henny-penny-edition/)

[ChrisD]

Thanks, I did. Clean Technica is a California based clean energy news aggregator. They didn't refute the McKinsey Mobility Consumer Survey, they just presented the details pertinent to the U.S. with a positive spin.

They state that "29% of electric vehicle owners are considering a switch back to a traditional combustion engine car", however, this is across all countries surveyed. For the U.S. alone it is 46% and the Clean Technica article does not dispute this claim.

For Australian EV owners it is 49% according to the survey, which is the highest of any country.

Chris.

[Camelopardalis]

I’ve never understood the logic of opposition with discussing EV. After all, they just have a different power source. Wars gave been won and lost on blind opposition to something much the same, only slightly different. Maybe someone here can explain the concept behind hate to me in simple terms.

EV will take the lead sooner or later on pure economics. I’ve used my diesel 4x4 twice (for relatively short, utilitarian purposes) since I bought my EV a year ago. Using my own solar, I haven’t paid to charge it in over 12000km.

Petrol/diesel continues to increment in price, and anyone who thinks it’s not going to surge in price at some point once the balance tips is just deluding themselves. Many also don't consider the energy independence equation, which is short sighted considering we don’t produce oil in significant quantity.

Sure, we have a way to go on charging infrastructure here in Aus, it’s more challenging than in more densely populated countries, but we’ll get good coverage eventually. Maybe more Optus than Telstra for a few years. How long did it take to setup petroleum distribution?

Everyone’s use case is different for sure, but Australia is one of the most highly urbanised countries in the world, and EV fit the majority of use cases very easily. It’s just the cost accessibility factor, which over time will reduce for EV and increase for ICE.

Of course there are use cases for the old tech which will mean some will cling to life for many more years to come, and that’s OK. But it’s foolish to think that we have failed just because we didn’t change the world overnight.

[Peter Ward]

A production manager for BMW noted some years ago that the engine for their premium ICE line had about 2,500 parts, of which several hundred were moving parts. The assembly line operator needed to install it with a crane. Once complete the engine would need constant fuel, lubrication and coolant replenishment plus maintenance of belts, plugs, injectors, bearings etc. etc. to run.

On their EV production line the engine had six main parts of which three were moving. The production line tech could put it in the car without a crane. Maintenance was effectively nil.
(this has certainly been my experience with Tesla)

Complex engineering with a massive on-going parts inventory or keep it simple with few parts? Humm...
From a manufacturer's perspective the die is already cast.

From a energy distribution perspective, you can power an EV with the sun from PV array on your roof. No need for deep ocean oil rigs, millions of pump jacks, massive bulk oil carriers, refineries, fuel-tanker trucks etc.

If there is an AC power plug nearby you can charge your EV car (albeit slowly). Fast charging stations for longer journeys are being rolled out.

Not a question of "if" IMHO, it's simply when.

[ChrisD]

Look guys, I agree. I just don't think the economics or infrastructure are there yet, well not to my satisfaction anyway.

Let me explain, I'll use the car maker MG since they make both one of the cheapest petrol, the MG3, and cheapest EV, the MG4 available in Australia. Very similar vehicles.

The MG3 sells for $18,990, the MG4 sells for $37,990. Similar cars but the EV costs $19,000 more.

The $19,000 saved will currently buy 11,875 litres of fuel for the MG3. The MG3 gets 6.7L/100km, call it 7L/100, so the 11,176 litres can give you 159,000km of petrol powered travel.

In other words, if you are paying nothing for your electricity you will have to travel 159,000km in the MG4 before you break even on the purchase cost over the MG3.

On service costs, for a 40,000km/24 month service for the MG3 it is $323. The 40,000/24 service for the MG4 is $296. Not much of a saving.

Battery life is another cost. MG say to expect a battery lifetime on average of 10 years and the replacement cost of the battery is currently $10,908. Now I have no idea what the ICE lifetime is on the MG3 but I would expect at least 15-20 years if you take care.

Now, again, I do think I'll be driving EV in the future, but I'll need better supporting infrastructure and longer life, lower cost batteries, or a massive hike in fuel costs before that happens.

Chris.

[Ryderscope]

Thanks for posting this Peter. It is a hobby horse that I get on to when I hear others trot out misinformation particularly in reference to EV safety and, more specifically, EV fires. One quite often hears statements that EVs will be more likely catch fire in a collision and this proposition is simply not supported by the numbers. There are millions of EVs in the world now so we have a very solid base from which to look at the statistics for EV fires v ICE vehicle fires.

Based on figures that I’ve seen from EV FireSafe (an Australian organisation) and European motoring organisations, ICE vehicles are EIGHTY THREE (83) times more likely to be involved in a fire incident than EVs. The numbers speak for themselves.

We are now proud owners of a Kia EV6 (since February this year) and love it. We’ve done a few long trips and survived to tell the story :D The energy running costs are a fraction of that of our ICE vehicle.

So for those that are resisting the change I will continue with trotting out the cliches by noting that if one does not get on the steam roller of progress one stands the risk of getting run over by it :D

[wavelandscott]

We were early adopters of the Tesla Model3 in the USA…it works very well for how we drive. Our cost of operating it has been frighteningly low. I look forward to the continuing evolution of the technology.

I work in a field that supplies materials into the automotive space, and some of the potential ways forward have the potential to radically change mobility.

[Peter Ward]

Also germane to the conversation is my personal favourite youtube video (https://youtu.be/1oVrIHcdxjA?si=hQEmTn8GcH9gA2WY) on the elephant in the room...emissions.

[SimmoW]

Hey we just bought a $20k bargain EV, Nissan Leaf, we can't go more than 200km but we only need to commute 70km round trip usually. So you don't need to be on a jumbo sized pension to afford one. Built amazingly well and solid, I'm a Nissan convert now!

[Peter Ward]

Good on you Simon! Just be mindful of the visually impaired, I've had no luck there to date, but never know. :D

[TrevorW]

Question ?? if petroleum prices are set based on supply and demand as demand for fuel for ICE vehicles declines with ever increasing EV numbers does that result in fuel prices declining to an extent where people will buy ICE vehicles as they become more economical and fuel efficient

[Leo.G]

Back in the early days of the automobile the majority were electric before petrol became ever increasingly cheap to fend off the evil early electric adopters.


https://www.history.com/news/electric-vehicles-automobiles-timeline

[wavelandscott]

Great question…I do not know but like the way you think.

Supply and Demand will certainly impact, I suspect that initially it might allow prices to drift down but at some point (assuming the trend continues), it becomes difficult to support a refinery without sufficient throughput.

I do not know the make up of the costs and taxes in Australia on the cost of petrol. Which would impact how quickly (or if) price would decline.

[Leo.G]

It will more likely result in people paying HUGE prices for petrol to keep the industry alive, we can't have the billionaire oil barons driving around in Toyota's.

[Peter Ward]

The level of subsidies that fossil fuel producers get from Australian taxpayers
is rather obscene $14.5 Billion in 23-24 (https://australiainstitute.org.au/report/fossil-fuel-subsidies-in-australia-2024/)

It's obscene as companies like Chevron, Royal Dutch Shell etc. have revenues that are more than many small countries (around $200 Billion) , yet continue to ask for taxpayer handouts.

Fossil fuels, as a high density fuel, still have a place in agriculture, aviation
and manufacturing etc.....but for a highly urbanized country like Oz ,having millions of us burning the stuff for a daily commute is madness.

It also beggars belief that as many city dwellers are being moved into high density towers, body corporates frequently refuse owners permission to install...at their own expense ..a garage charger! :shrug:

Yet State legislators do not have the gonads to invoke laws that would such
asinine refusals illegal. To quote Lennon (John) "Strange days indeed"

[TrevorW]

One should ask does democracy in its true form still exist, I think not and major corporations determine our future via Govt puppets, just today Albaneasy made democracy an issue regarding the latest attempt on Trumps life but in a true democracy someone like Trump would never be allowed to run, IMO he should just have said nothing.

[glend]

There is a Brit on Utube, who apparently now lives in Australia, has a Utube channel MGUY. He spends all of his time refurbishing EVs, promoting the idea that they are all firebombs waiting to go off in your garage. His latest post was about EV bans in China in under ground car parks, because they represent a fire hazard. Sure some early Li-ion batteries do comes with risks, but new battery tech is rapidly evolving to the point where drivingbnails through them fails to cause a reaction. Scare mongering has always been an effective tool to impead progress. Australia should deport him.

[JA]

No it does not. We have what I like to think of as a "monetocracy", where dollars are proportional to votes. Simplistically, one dollar = one vote, but definitely not one man/woman = one vote. It replaced the "slightly" unpalatable feudalism of many centuries ago. The current system keeps us "happy" by providing an illusion of choice.



I think he should continue along those lines:D:D:D

Best
JA

[rat156]

Maybe rubbishing rather than refurbishing?

And he's an absolute muppet. I recently commented on one of his videos, at length, to attempt to correct some of the many myths he promoted about a Tesla semi that crashed and burned in the US. He has not had the courtesy to either reply or to remove the flagrantly false assertations from his video.

Another is the self proclaimed "AutoExpert" John Cadogan, who, although he sells EVs through his website, including the Kona Electric (which he used to own one of and cans it mercifully), constantly gets the clickbaiters riled with EV misinformation dressed up as "Fact". Even in the one video where he acknowledged that he made an arithmetic error (which basically reversed the conclusion) he made another systematic error which has been repeatedly pointed out, but doesn't fit his narrative. Apparently hypocrisy is not on the engineer's curriculum. Of course JC is against Tesla becuase he can't sell them on his website...

Cheers
Stu

[DavidTrap]

Hi Peter,

Interesting thread. I drive a hybrid, my wife drives an EV. We also have a holiday unit and charge my wife's EV there with the granny charger.

The issues around garage chargers aren't straightforward. Apartment building haven't been constructed with appropriate electrical infrastructure to support multiple chargers drawing up to 11kW. If an early adopter installs a charger in their car space, it might rule out any one else installing a charger in their car space. The body corporate has to manage this conundrum - potentially budgeting for a major electrical infrastructure upgrade to the unit complex for which all owners will have to contribute through the sinking fund.

We are lucky that the powerpoint in our garage is connected to our unit's meter, so we're paying for our own EV recharging. If the electricity in a common garage area is paid for by the body corporate, it's not fair on other owners to be paying for an EV owners recharging - its not like there's always been a free petrol pump in the garage for ICE owners.

I understand that it is a challenge for apartment dwellers to charge their EVs, but they've got to accept that it's not going to be a quick, or cheap, fix. Another conundrum is how will charging infrastructure on the highways ever be able to cope with periods of peak demand like the Easter long weekend - it's going to take time to sort that out, but eventually we will get there.

I'm an itinerant worker and have seen many EV owner plugging their personal cars into random power points in parking garages. There have been emails sent about circuits being overloaded and tripping (as well as trip hazards from extension leads). Again the electrical infrastructure in the parking garage was never designed to handle the load that is now being imposed. Ultimately it's theft. All of the people doing this are earning good coin and my sarcastic mind often contemplates offering them a fiver to help fill their tank!

Just my 2 cents worth.

DT

[Peter Ward]

Dave, you raise valid points.

We had to run 32 amp flex to our meter box and install another BCD for the Tesla Wall charger (admittedly being in a free standing home makes this easy)

Depending on the unit complex, installing high amperage flex to the owner's garage might be difficult or impossible, but I'd suggest a 15amp GPO would not be hard, nor should it affect the building's load capacity.

In the case to which I refer, the body corporate would not allow even that.

One would hope the building regulations would make EV charging capacity an imperative for all new constructions.

If the load comes off the common property circuit(s), it does not have to be "free" to the EV user. The BC could bill them a nominal charging fee or actual usage fee based on the car's charging data (I can pull up our Tesla data for the last year if need be, via it's App).

Just a bit of rational thought is required rather than a blanket "No".

[DavidTrap]

One 15amp GPO won’t overload the circuits, but one in every garage isn’t necessarily as simple as it sounds. Community living comes with compromise and decisions have to be made with consideration of the fairness of that decision on all owners.

My main point is that all of this infrastructure costs money, and those who want it should be the footing bill. The A380 needed a lot of infrastructure upgrades at the gates - someone had to pay for that.

DT

[sharkbite]

"Apartment building haven't been constructed with appropriate electrical infrastructure to support multiple chargers drawing up to 11kW."

Nor have the neighbourhoods where these apartments are built...

We live in a low-density area, and (before we had solar installed) we ran the pool pumps at night, to get cheaper 'off peak' rates.

On a really cold night in July 2023, with the aircon running, the hot water heating, the pool pump running, and a bunch of other things....we drew 8kw for a sustained period...(checked my suppliers app for this)

Even a granny charger (32amps) can draw up to 7.7 kw when its running....

suddenly adding dozens of large homes draw into an area designed for much lower draw means substantial upgrades to the supplier's infrastructure...


I personally am all for EV's - i'll get one when the mighty Falc wears out....*

But my use case is different....If i leave the house at all i use public transport, and the big fella only goes to the shops and back...so i can have an EV sitting in the garage all day soaking up the herbs from the solar...

I probably dont need a supercharger....

If we downsize to a flat i don't know how this would work...

*** hehehe who ever heard of a Falc wearing out....

[TrevorW]

Now moving forward on this obviously infrastructure in Australia can't cope with everyone going over to EV's one wonders how a place like China with the most EV's in the world (13million) handled this situation ?? and on another point what will the Govt do about lost revenue ($20 billion) when everyone goes over to EV's. Also what will the Govt do with 20 million ICE vehicles that will be banned on the roads by 2040. I also wonder how is a vehicle with less moving parts dearer to manufacture (albeit aside from batteries which will need to come down in price and improve)???


No I support EV's in principle but I believe a hybrid situation is a more logical way of moving forWARD. :)

[sharkbite]

- 13 million cars vs 1.3 billion people is the vapour coming off the drop in the ocean. They easily have the infrastructure to cope, and the resources to make it happen.
(as opposed to 25 million of us servicing a landmass almost the same size)

The Govt has ruled out the banning of ICE vehicles by 2040 - this was only a 'recommendation' by a lobby group, and never a serious option

Apart from the batteries and maybe some extra copper, i don't know that
EV's are more expensive to manufacture...but ICE vehicles are sold at greater volume, so profits are made with volume...
(chicken - meet my mate egg)

A sobering thought though - for the vast majority of human history, and as it is indeed now....personal vehicular, long distance transit was a luxury bestowed upon the priveleged few...and mainly because of the black stuff....we may have to come to terms with a future where this is no longer a thing...

[By.Jove]

Human history has shown we inevitably exploit a resource until it is gone. The shift away from coal, oil or gas won’t happen seriously until there isn’t any - at any price.

Politics is about the art of compromise - postponing any real action as long as possible. Politics is not about managing the environment responsibly.

[blindman]

Are you talking about this guy? After this video I will definitely buy EV


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqnja4hYYqw&ab_channel=ChinaObserver

[blindman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqnja4hYYqw&ab_channel=ChinaObserver

[Peter Ward]

Oh...pleeease. What a load of BS.

While the EV stats are a little tricky to nail down: until 2023, in Australia only two EV's caught fire,
and they were in a building that burnt down....i.e building burnt the car, not the other way around.

Of the two more recent actual car fires in 2024, both had damage to their battery packs. Lord knows what standards might apply in the ROC but I'd wager
the computer generated voiceover and dramatic vision in your link wasn't created with objectivity in mind. :rolleyes:

No undamaged EV has spontaneously caught on fire in Australia.

Exhibit A: Attached are the Fire & Rescue NSW official Stats on car fires.

Near enough 24,000 cars have gone up in smoke since 2015 (about 60 a week)
in that entire time just two were EV's.

As to why this astounding anomaly exists, you might want to take a remedial chemistry class on
exothermic reactions and petrochemicals. :screwy:

Better still.... lean down next to an active EV charger plug and light up a smoke (I know smoking is bad for your health, but stick with me on this)
Then repeat, while leaning down next to the fumes coming from your petrol bowser when you next fill your ICE vehicle. ;)

[barx1963]

Interesting discussion. I was lucky enough to purchase a nice new Volvo EX30 a few months ago.
Yes it was expensive, certainly the most I have ever paid for a car bu a loooong way. I love the car and am constantly amazed at how much fun it is to drive. Not forking out $$$ to buy fueld is awesome and looking forward to summer when I will be able to do most charging using the solar panels.

Before buying it i researched a lot of options. Looked carefuly at 2nd hand Leaf. You can pick them up for less tha $20k now. If only driving around town, and more many peaople short trips of less than 50kms make up the vast majority of their trips, this would be a great option.

Was talking to a couple who purchased a GWM Ora a few months back. They absolutely love it, especially the happy feeling of driving past petrol stations.

It amazed me when I purchased the number of people who quite seriously told me to be careful about it catching fire!! This little titbit of misinformation has been lodged sloidly in many peoples brains. And I keep getting asked "am I still happy with it?". They all seem to expect me to change my mind:shrug:

Malcolm

[Leo.G]

I think some people mmistake those cheap Chinese hover boards for cars?

[Ryderscope]

As I said in my earlier post. When you crunch the numbers, EVs are 83 times LESS likely than ICE vehicles to catch fire.

I keep these numbers up my sleeve ready to challenge the dinner party conversations when the misinformation rears its ugly head.

[blindman]

Must be just one car on fire, due to one went on fire in my suburb (and whole house burned to the ground recently).
No hard feelings.

[TrevorW]

Lets extrapolate that out a bit - I read 6 EV's fires to date, now considering there is only 180000 EV's in Australia against 19000000 ICE vehicles, that ratio of fires EV's to ICE would ??? :)

[sharkbite]

For mine, it's not even how many.....there is one undisputed fact....

When they do go off, they are orders of magnitude more nasty....

-Battery fires cannot be extinguished with an ordinary fire hose....water only makes them burn more.
-the toxic chemicals they spew out are extremely corrosive and carcinogenic.

The likelihood of them burning may be less, or at parity, but the impact of any one fire is waaaaaaaay worse.

This alone would not stop me buying one, but makes me consider getting a house with a detached garage at the very least, and avoiding underground car parks...

[lazjen]

Good grief. Either type of vehicle on fire is extremely dangerous. There's far more carcinogenic material in the plastics burning anything else. And all types of vehicles are loaded with that.

[TrevorW]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-24/federal-government-approves-coal-mine-extensions/104391416


at the rate our Govt is going I don't foresee an ICE ban before 2100 :)

[sharkbite]

Indeed - the difference being that an on-fire ICE vehicle can be extinguished with common fire suppression tools like water or on-board extinguishers...
Battery fires cannot....water can actually make it worse...

[lazjen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_EOvqXdABA

[Peter Ward]

There is already a solution for this (https://brandogsikring.dk/en/news/2020/container-puts-out-inextinguishable-fires-in-electric-cars/#:~:text=However,%20an%20electric%2 0car%20can't%20be%20taken%20to%20a% 20car)

Unfortunately Australia is still in the dark ages with many aspects of EV infrastructure and uptake.
But this discussion about the possibility of EV fires is rather asinine.
EV's are inherently safer than a car with a tank-full of highly inflammable petrochemicals and the stats prove it. (Google Ford Pinto)

Rocks also fall from space....no doubt some would advocate wearing of hard hats because of this dire problem :lol:

[TrevorW]

Unfortunately Australia is still in the dark ages with many aspects of EV infrastructure and uptake.



Very true and won't get any better IMO considering recent policy decisions and the future impact those will have on emissions etc etc :)



But this discussion about the possibility of EV fires is rather asinine.
EV's are inherently safer than a car with a tank-full of highly inflammable petrochemicals and the stats prove it. (Google Ford Pinto)


Problem here is who in their right mind would ever buy a Ford Pinto.



Quote "electric vehicle battery fires are rare. Indeed, the available data indicate the fire risk is between 20 and 80 times greater for petrol and diesel vehicles. Fire risks are also greater for electric scooters and electric bikes"

Rocks also fall from space....no doubt some would advocate wearing of hard hats because of this dire problem :lol:


No more likely man made space debris will get you :)

[sharkbite]

Good luck getting that to the bottom deck of the QVB carpark:lol::lol::lol:

[Peter Ward]

The reality is no EV has spontaneously gone up in smoke in any basement carpark in Australia to date....and BTW don't forget your hard hat for that occasional rock from space. Suffice to say there have been a number of ICE cars go up in smoke in carparks to date.

That said, it would be prudent to educate EV owners whose cars have been in a collision...infact...maybe even mandate a safety inspection...to ensure the HV pack is not compromised.

[Leo.G]

I find an alfoil hat is the best, it stops the aliens (and the government) scanning my empty, brainless void too!

[sharkbite]

Not sure if this is meant for me?

(i'm not worried about rocks from space?)

[blindman]

Nobody can force me to buy vehicle which can be stopped remotely!

[Peter Ward]

Fair enough. My first ICE car (a Morris) was clearly ahead of the play...that
heap of $_it would stop often, without any remote intervention :lol:

[ReidG]

A lot of cars have the possibility of remote control including US ones. Police in some places want to have the ability to disable cars to save having to chase cars. Too open to abuse or error for my liking.



I cannot see any situation short of D Day situations where anyone would benefit from a mass disabling of cars. Doing that would destroy the reputation of the manufacturer world wide. Even your least favorite politician is surely not that stupid.


Like Peter I have had a few English cars which had automatic random fails as a feature. Lucas electrics stopped many a car. You could fix English cars at the roadside which is just as well, you had to. All major manufacturers products are far more reliable now.


On Chinese EVs I have had the opportunity to examine a couple closely and found them to be very well made, certainly well up with the leading brands. They drove well too. Worthy competition for my Tesla S which has been loads of fun and totally reliable thanks. Never looked like running out of electricity either. Only tiny brain power and planning to avoid that problem, The car keeps you accurately notified about battery charge level.

[blindman]

Big Brother wants control due to "climate warming".
What about update? :eyepop:

[Leo.G]

What absolutely baffles me with Tesla in particular (I'm not sure whether other manufacturers do it) is every conceivable feature is built into the car but you have to pay a premium to unlock them. If my car comes with a stereo I want to listen to it without having to pay extra to have knobs installed so I can turn it on (analogy relating to vehicles I'm familiar with).
Heated seats, other features, all provided dependant on your willingness to pay a premium for a software update to activate them, it seems like nothing more than a scam. Were I ever in a position to buy a Tesla I'd soon have my son writing a hack to get me the premium features I've already paid for (as far as production costs go, they don't just give them away) and activating them all.


Soon life will be a subscription service, pay up or die.
Software scamming has become UNBELIEVABLE.

[sharkbite]

Did you hear about the guy who bought the Apple i-car Operating System?

(couldn't open Windows)

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Peter Ward]

Sorry Leo, this is simply not true.

Tesla seat warmers, radio etc. work perfectly without the need for a "subscription"

There is a premium connectivity that gives you internet access audio streaming
and a "google earth" like option on the Nav system with real time traffic delay
data. That's about it, and you certainly don't need it to have a fully functioning car.

I believe it was actually BMW who had the gall the charge a subscription (https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/7/23863258/bmw-cancel-heated-seat-subscription-microtransaction) for heated seats etc. Suffice to say that "business model" was a total failure.

[Leo.G]

As per most people Peter I have no idea about the Tesla's or other electric vehicles I'm only mentioning what I've read online.
I shouldn't have used subscription I meant pay extra to access luxury features built into the car. I get it, you want luxury it costs extra but when it's already installed and covered in the original purchase price (they don't just give the luxury features away and lose money on production costs) I don't see why they aren't unlocked standard.
I do understand that there's nothing that makes the car unsafe or inoperable.
Then again it could just be the empty void between my ears and it was BMW I'd read about, not sleeping does that to a person.

[Camelopardalis]

The only function that I’m aware of in my Tesla that requires an upsell is the Full Self Driving package, which isn’t available or legal in Australia yet.

All the sensors are otherwise used for parking, autonomous emergency braking, cruise control etc anyways.

There’s a lot of FUD about something new. How much of that comes from the other businesses whose model Tesla is bucking is tricky, but not hard, to guess. I mean, car salesmen are eliminated, 6-month servicing is eliminated. Oil companies are bypassed. Not suspicious at all ;)

Seems to me that in this “farcebook-world” we now live in, people have lost the ability to retrieve and analyse facts and think for themselves.

[muletopia]

Folks,
At this time I would opt for a BYD Seal Premium.
Any comments?
Chris

[Leo.G]

As mentioned, I only know what I read online, I don't claim my information is accurate. I'm totally unfamiliar with any electric vehicles other than forklifts I worked on in the 80s as a forklift technician and electronics engineer.


Other than soon governments will figure out how to make life a paid subscription service. Of that I'm convincing myself more and more each day.

[TrevorW]

I'm sticking with my 2009 VW Passat tuned TDI wagon 140000 klm still going strong highway cycle 4.7l/100k - over 1000 klm on a tank of gas - 0-100 7s - oil/filter change everey 12000 klm and it's probably last me another 140000 klm - :)

[The_bluester]

Regards EVs and fires. The outcome is much the same between a tank full of fuel (Petrol) that has split open and caught fire and a battery pack cooking off. Funne enough you do not see the EV haters promoting us all driving diesels instead of petrol engines cars due to the significantly greater difficulty in getting a diesel spill to catch fire.


I could do about 70% of my current work role in an EV, if the percentage was just a bit higher I would be very tempted to lease something like a Kia EV6. My work is too likely though to call for me to get in and cross half of Victoria in an afternoon, regardless of the current state of charge, sometimes into remote areas that are a long way from charging infrastructure, and that is without looking at the reasons I am in a (smaller) 4WD. If it was just for commuting use I would probably be in one already.

[TrevorW]

MY final point most EV's, except the expensive ones, are ugly :)

[Peter Ward]

And cheap ICE's aren't? :lol:

That said I've found euro styling tends to date better. Older Japanese cars remind me of brown velour suits...they dated soooo badly.

Lexus clearly have a crack baby heading up their current design team with their absurdly large grills.

It doesn't have to be that way.

Almost everything that comes out of Maranello (aka Ferrari) is beautiful and becomes a classic. BTW even Ferrari are making hybrids. Their exhaust notes are still symphonic....but as Zimmerman said "the times...they are a changin' "

[Leo.G]

This may be of interest to a few people here:


https://newatlas.com/automotive/panasonic-4680-battery-factory/


Panasonic, a brand of National which is actually Mitsush!ta electric company (Part of the name is a naughty word in English and gets censored, hence the !, I'm not trying to fool the language censor, it's what the company is called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panasonic) have incredibly high standards. I worked for them in the early 80s after several years at RANK where there was no quality let alone quality control, National was always spotless and a lovely place to work with the most advanced working conditions in the country at the time (38 hour week in 81). Their quality control and safety standards were always to the highest level, something I'm sure many would look for in battery production.

I'll be keeping an eye out on the release of these cells if they do get released for public access (other than just to vehicle manufacturers).

[JA]

Daily Mail, today, 2nd October 2024...
Urgent recall of 200,000 hybrid SUVs that can catch fire and explode (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/urgent-recall-of-200-000-hybrid-suvs-that-can-catch-fire-and-explode/ar-AA1rxlri?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=c9910683f2284da3cbfa0222371df0 ae&ei=19)

Best
JA

[Peter Ward]

Yeah right. Another gratuitous headline.

I did a quick web search. A total of 13 cars have caught fire. Not great...but it doesn't have quite the hysteria of "200,000" cars.

...Jeep infamously have their problems. You might want to Google a disgruntled Jeep Cherokee (non-hybrid) owner who destroyed his car due to it being a total lemon.

Seems Jeep's management have migtrated that pathetic ethos to their hybrid builds. :rolleyes:

[julianh72]

Interestingly, the statistics show that hybrids (HEV) have the highest fire risk of all, followed by ICEs, with pure battery EVs (BEV) having the lowest fire risk. It seems that combining the risks of carrying around a tank of petrol with a high voltage battery is a bigger fire risk than a battery alone - who would have thought?!

[Peter Ward]

I suspect this is the source (https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/) of that statistic

In the same article the highest total number of fires is for ICE vehicles (12x more) but given the sheer number on the road, not surprising.

Hybrids are technically complex....and expensive from a servicing point of view as you have an EV and ICE system in the one vehicle.
Could be, required maintenance, because of cost is not being performed :question:

[AstralTraveller]

Going to work about 20 years ago I used to walk past a Merc A Series covered in lemon stickers and a sign on the rear window 'This A-Series is a lemon'. It made it into the media but I don't know if Merc heeded their cries.

Another fun factoid about Jeeps. I was chatting with my mechanic maybe 10-15 years ago and he mentioned the fun someone was having with their Jeep (forgotten the model). The front wheel bearings needed replacing. Trouble was the bearing was integral with the wheel hub and brake disc assembly. At the time bearings for a Toyota were ca $40 but the best they could find for the Jeep was $700 - per side. That'a a huge cost to save a bit of unsprung weight.

[Leo.G]

This is not particularly an EV only issue currently in the news, it's several new cars with internet connectivity, the collection of what should be private driver and phone use data.
Apparently phone data has been sold for training AI.
Any thoughts (but Tesla is apparently at the head of the naughty list in relation to it)?


More a smart/connected car than EV.



There's even mention (not currently happening in Australia) of selling driver data to insurers.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2024-10-09/car-brands-are-tracking-and-sharing-your-data-with-third-parties/104440742

[DJT]

Privacy settings from Teslas web site can be found here.

https://www.tesla.com/support/privacy

Just double checked my settings though..just in case

Nothing there that worries me. Certainly not as bad as some other organisations in terms of what they do with our data