What Do You Think

[leon]

Hi All

OK, before I start I know that I will get some flack from what I'm about to say, well so be it, but I would like to voice my opinion on the subject of responses to Deep Sky Images.

Images on Deep Sky, yep mine included, are the work of the individual, and, or the combined effort of a couple, partner, or the like.

To make a long story short, I, as most others encourage the contributer on their efforts, and rightly so, and to be honest, we look at these images and say, (well done) (fantastic) (great Effort) (nice) etc,etc, and they are.

It is true, as a beginner, like myself, to get something recorded that we can see is a mile stone of our efforts, and we should be proud of these small achievements as we progress.

So, would it not be better to respond to a new persons image with something like, OK, that is great, but if you did this, or did this, or processed like this, rather than, great image, nice, good effort,

OK guys, probably, what I'm saying is this, tell people if they need help, or advise where to go, or improve their images. rather than, Nice, Great Effort,
and then think to yourself, well i just did that to encourage.

Encouragement is great, but help is better. ;)

OK, boy, am I in trouble.:whistle:

Cheers Leon :thumbsup:

[duncan]

Hi Leon,
As someone who has yet to get a camera and start imaging all i can say is "Well Put". When i do start i would prefer to be given directions on what i could do to help get better photo's. Let's face it , we all have to start somewhere and i'm sure some have been lucky enough to have had someone right beside them guiding them through it all.
I'm all for constructive criticism.
Cheers:thumbsup:
Ps. Hopefully Toucam at end of week.

[Rodstar]

Nice thread Leon, great effort!

[iceman]

I don't think there's anything you've said to be in trouble about.. What you say is true, encouragement is great and if you can provide help or assistance, that's even better.

It would be nice to think that every image posted could have some critique or someone offer suggestions etc, but a) there are a LOT of images posted, b) it takes time for someone to offer constructive advise, c) a lot of people may not feel they're worthy to offer the suggestions. Sometimes constructive help may be taken the wrong way by the imager, and it could lead to them feeling worse about their image.

I think a balance is best.. I always try to be constructive where possible, and where my area of expertise allows me to offer some suggestions I usually try. But in a lot of cases I just don't have the time, or I don't know anything about a particular technique (eg: DSO's).

I do think it's great when I read people's replies that offer suggestions or help that ultimately lead to better images. That's what it's all about. The open sharing of information and ideas that help us all to improve and produce better images in the long run.

If you have the time, and feel you have something to add that could produce a better image next time, then go for it!

[Astroman]

Good points Leon and I have thought the same a few times. Hell I have even just said "nice image" just for the sake of saying its a good photo. It would be nice to hear pointers from others. Personally I have no problem with people letting me know my images are crap or not and value the help from others that are more experienced. Some people do get offended by someone telling them what to do with their images, might be the way some come across over the net :shrug:

Another way I have seen on other forums is a separate area just for this sort of thing, so if you want people to criticize your image you put it in that area, if you just want people to say great image, you put it in the general Deep Sky Astrophotography area? Just an idea. :sadeyes:

[netwolf]

I think what you have said is spot on. One thought thought that perhaps we should institute a guide line for posting so that the newbies learn to record certain details. I know I myself am very poor at keeping records like this. This way a person responding can offer advise based on the process you applied. I am not sure if it would be a lot of work to implement but perhaps a log book should be enforced on posters. Before they post they must study the type of details to record etc. And perhaps the posting feature could be adapted to include field based entry to ensure that what is recored on paper is transfered to the post.

This has many benefits to newbies, it encourages the use of a repetitive method to be learned that records facts. This will also discourage bad recording habits. By no means is this an easy effort, but in the end if the individual is encouraged to follow this method then people can provide constructive advise based on facts.

Regards
Fahim

[jjjnettie]

For myself as a beginner, it's a difficult decision as to whether to actually post an image or not. There are so many talented astrophotographers here that I feel I'm bringing down the standards that have been set.
I like the idea of constructive critisism, it's a good way to learn.
But there are others who may take it as an affront to their percieved talents if someone starts telling them what they are doing wrong, especially if it is unasked for.
Maybe there should be a Beginning Astrophotography section in "Beginners Start Here!" where us learners can post our efforts.

[leon]

JJJ,,

Afront or not, I can see what you are saying, however, as a first time imager, with all the learning curve, that is involved it is important to make suggestions on improvements, I reckon.

Basically what I'm saying is,, be honest.

My last effort had square Stars, well I had never seen that before, but i was please that someone pointed that out to me.

Leon :thumbsup:

[ballaratdragons]

I agree Leon. I don't know if I give flippant answers or not. I'll have to go back and read my responses to peoples posted pics. I hope not :ashamed:

But yes, I'm sure some may take offence, but I suppose that's where diplomacy comes in.

"That looks OK, but I don't like the colour" isn't very helpful, whereas "Thats a good start. Maybe if you try a bit more red it would help too" would be a nicer way to help.

I suppose it all comes down to how it is said. People critique my images at times and I like the help :thumbsup:

[jjjnettie]

I enjoy reading all the helpful comments that are posted in the imaging sections.
What is best is when the person who took the photo takes the time to write in detail what they did to capture and process it. It's sort of like a recipe for sucess.
If I can't use the knowledge now, I can file it away for later.

[Kal]

I think alot of beginners that post images already know that they can, and will, improve alot on their technique. It is when an imager reaches a point where they are struggling with how to improve their images when constructive criticism can really be helpful, and quite often the imager will make it known that they are at that stage. For someone posting their first images ever it feels like an achievement for them and I don't think constructive criticism is warranted at that stage (unless directly asked for) but over time I'm sure all people that want to progress further will gladly take all constructive criticism on board as being productive. I guess it is up to the commentors to simply recognise at what stage of the learning curve the imager is at - someone who is stoked just to capture something or someone who's improvements are starting to slow down and is really posting to get feedback on how to improve their technique. I think that their is a healthy mix of both on the forums atm :)

[Doug]

Yeah? who are they? present company excluded.
One's best efforts are always excellent. Though there is always room for improvement

I find it discouraging to read an endless string of fantastic, wow, etc.etc., if I think the image could do with some simple processing to fix it up. In other words finding an image posted with heaps of well dones, I feel like I'd be being a bit of a killjoy coming along and saying something about the lack of colour depth, or alignment or noise reduction, flat fielding etc. etc.



Who is to decide who belongs to the elitist group and who belongs to the pleb group?
Any dinky di Imager will admit the he/she is on a learning curve and IMNSHO anyone who thinks they have reached the top, need to have a long hard look at themselves.

jjj if you have any images please post them and share what you have. I for one have only ever seen one image that was so bad I honestly wouldn't know where to begin with criticism (not counting some of mine):D
=================================== ======================
Sometimes when I post an image I just say something like "enjoy". That does not invite criticism, usually I probably know more of the faults than anyone else will, but am not interested in trying to improve that particular set of data or effort.
Other times, if I'm open to critique then I usually ask for it, detailing what I think the problem is. That is not to say that I take unbrage at uninvited criticism, cause I don't.
Everyone has a valid point of view (if theirs is different from mine, they are just misguided that all.:whistle:)

Leon I think I'm most comfortable with the "Comments/Criticism welcome" approach to signing off on an image post, that way no matter how many oohs and ahhs have gone before, 'constructive' critism will never be out of place.

[Ric]

Hi Leon, this is a very good post. I must admit I am guilty of this myself but it is more because of my limited knowledge in the imaging game. As I take more images myself I also realise how much imaging time and processing time goes into producing these images so I would hate to upset someone with a comment based on my own lack of knowledge.
A better option for myself might be to ask more questions regarding techniques, exposure times etc.

[avandonk]

Very good post

Bert

[ballaratdragons]

:rofl:

[matt]

I agree whole-heartedly with pretty much everything written here.

I guess a lot of the process begins with the individual putting up their image for viewing by others.

I think it's helpful to others if that person encourages/asks for constructive or criticial feedback. I don't think it should be taken for granted that a person is seeking feedback every time they post an image and I don't mean critical in the negative sense. You know what I mean.

So... if you want feedback/advice/ a critique... then ask for it:)

I do, however, think it's good form (etiquette) to seek permission before doing a reprocess on someone else's image. That's sometimes an area where misunderstandings can occur.

[leon]

Matt, good point about reprocessing other peoples images, I have also noticed that being done without consent, so to speak.

It is something like this, Hope you don't mind, but i have fixed up your image a bit, and it probably dose look better, but did the person have a choice, after the event.

Leon :thumbsup:

[RB]

What you've said is correct Leon although it's very difficult at times to judge how the person will react.
Matt's correct in stating that people who are looking for advice should state it in their post.
I've seen people on many forums get very offended at others when receiving good advice or have their image corrected for the better.
Unless I know the person or how they'll take the advice, I'll err on the side of caution and not offer any constructive criticism/alteration or advice and if I do then am always willing to help or show the person what to do.

Personally I don't mind if people offer advice or play with an image, but that's just me.
It is polite though to ask permission before altering someone's image.

In one forum I belong to, they solve this by offering members the option when they sign up to choose whether other members can alter their images by stating "Image editing OK" in their Bio (see attached image).

[matt]

Andrew's on the money, here.

If you've built that sort of a relationship with someone where you exchange info and advice, then you're on pretty solid ground.

Otherwise it can go pear-shaped quite quickly even if your intentions were 100% well-intended.

The web is sometimes a strange place, where fellas who would normally get on like a house on fire in the real world can find themselves at each other's throats in cyberspace.

RB - that bio thingy is a fairly nifty idea. Would avoid many potential dramas.

[Shawn]

I edited that image to bring out a bit more detail...:D...

But In all seriousness now and joshing aside, I think the piont here is very good, I for one am learning, and would really appreciate criticism in a constructive way. Its a good thing, and I dont believe anyone here would be offended by such criticism/advise...

S

[Sharnbrook]

What do I think? Very much like you Leon.

I'm sure, not only from the very supportive posts so far, but from a personal point of view, that you are unlikely to get into trouble for your comments.

I believe that there are too many "Excellent first shot" comments, when really the image is ordinary at the best. It would be far better to say nothing, than to give praise to a shot that really has nothing to commend it.

When I do post, I shall ask for constructive criticism, and hope to receive it. A comment such as "That was a bloody awful shot of the Moon" would be worthless and hurtful, but a comment that said "OK, but more contrast would be better" would give a clue to what the problem is. Better still would be "Have you tried playing around with curves in Photoshop, to increase contrast and give the shot more impact?"

Constructive criticism will lead to better images, and an interchange of ideas and techniques. Gratuitous praise will lead nowhere, except more of the same.

Not only a note that "Image editing is OK", but also that "Comments and Constuctive Criticism welcomed" would be worthwhile considering as part of the posting process, much the same as the example above, that I assume is from POTN, the Canon site, or if not, then from a similar site.

Regards,

Mike

[ballaratdragons]

Rather than Terry (Mojo) and Mike mucking around with the site to set up this 'Image Editing & Comment Approved' idea, just put it in BOLD text in your Sig. I just added it to mine.

[RB]

That's a lovely re-process Shawn :P
Would you like to share with us what you did to improve it.....:lol:


Absolutely agree Mike.


Yes you're spot on, it's from POTN, I've seen you on there once or twice Mike. :thumbsup:


Great Idea Ken. :)

[jase]

Constructive Feedback
“Morale boosting” statements are fine.
Constructive criticism statements are fine.

However, the poster needs to make it clear what they want to hear from members;
An all comments welcome or stating nothing at all indicates they are open (fair assumption). If the poster specifically says constructive criticism only, then those who feel they can’t provide advice to assist the poster should not make comment. Simply stating “great image” or “you’re stars are too blue” is not good enough and only introduces “noise” into the thread. Tell them how you would go about addressing the problem – work with them publicly so that others can glean knowledge from the thread. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here with numerous levels of astrophotography experience – leverage off it by being specific for what you would like to hear.

For those that feel inferior when posting a sub perfect image, remember people have traveled the same road before you. You will only improve with experience and knowledge sharing. Get out there and post those images and ask for constructive feedback. Don’t take your images to heart. Acknowledge them for what they are and look for flaws.

When I stop learning, there will be a medical report classifying me as officially deceased.

Image Editing
What’s the point of editing someone else’s image from this site? :shrug: As it is, you're limited to 150k file upload size, thus the uploaded file is small and highly compressed. If you seriously think you can improve the uploaded image while it is such a compressed state, I wish you the very best of luck.

Try it for yourself. Open the image that you've posted and modify the curves or colour balance - I doubt you'll improve the image as the compression has reduced how much data you can work with. It will introduce more noise and have a "washed out" look. The only way to improve an image is to have access to the raw data. So lacking this - don't bother. Just provide constructive feedback if you have the capacity to do so.

If the astrophotographer provides a link to an unprocessed higher resolution file(s) specifically asking for assistance or to simply have a go at processing it, then you can make a difference. In such a case, you should provide information as to the exact steps they have used to process the image. Also, those who reprocess the image should also acknowledge that the data still remains the property of the astrophotographer. Don't try and rip it off and post your version on your website (I have seen this happen) or use their data for layering within your own images without consent.

I find the 150k limit restrictive, but understand there needs to be a limit. Those in the know usually provide links to their external website to better convey their work so that don't have to comply to such file size limitations. After all there is no point spending all this time collection data and image processing into a masterpiece when you can't display it in all its glory.

[ballaratdragons]

I don't care if the resolution is low, I have seen my pics edited by others and there was improvement, which shows me an example of how it could look better. Then I take the original back into PhotoShop and try it.

This is all meant to be fun. If you were extremely serious about your image quality, yes by all means attach a link to the full res version. I personally am happy to see people adjust my low res images to help improve them. The quality may be rubbish, but the example is there to use.

[matt]

Maybe some folk are both having fun and being 'serious' about their images at the same time?;) These two standpoints are not mutually exclusive.:D

Maybe some people are here to have a bit of fun and get serious about their imaging. I think it's horses for courses.

[ballaratdragons]

I'm both, but sill welcome editing to help :thumbsup:

The fun for me is taking the image, the serious bit is trying to make it look good.

[matt]

Yep. Me too. I enjoy getting constructive feedback on my images and believe it's a good thing to ask for it too:thumbsup:

[iceman]

I don't agree with this. A first shot is a first shot. There's a lot to commend someone for actually a) getting out there and trying to take a picture, and b) posting it when they know it's not up to the standard that others might be.
I've often said "excellent first shot, better than my first shot" because in all honesty it is!! In saying comments like this, I hope that people look at my images now, they can see that through perseverence and hard work they can get great images.
Of course in an ideal world everyone would say "great first shot, next time try this or this or this", and often I do - but not every time. Sometimes I just don't have the time to reply to every image thread with indepth comments about how I'd improve it.

Newbies to imaging NEED encouragement. If everyone took the opinion of saying nothing if they couldn't help out in some way, it would be very discouraging for them to see 0 replies to their thread.


Well said.



I know what you're saying and any file size limit is not ideal, but if you saw the size of the backups we need to take each night! :eyepop: There just has to be a limit for logistical reasons. As you say, most people upload higher-res images to their own website, or we offer an upload FTP area for storage of hi-res images as well.

[matt]

That's about as good a summary of this issue as you'd hope to read.

[WadeH]

While I agree to various extents with all of the coments made in this thread I feel that the most important thing is to remember that there are all levels of amatuers here from the fantastic picture takers like Mike etc with amazing gear and software to those such as myself with my little hand held compact digital and am lucky if I can do basic cropping and brightness controls.

I (and I am sure many others) am very happy to see any amount of, great first shot, for my pics. At least someone has taken the time to look and post a comment. I am sure that if they feel up to it and have the time, the advice will be comming.

As to making special beginers forums for pics etc, lets not go overbord and make things to complex, its nice to see our work amongst the greats!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[leon]

Spot on WadeH, :thumbsup: I was going to add to your post, but I think you have said it all

Leon:thumbsup: