First Telescope for a budding Astrophysicist

[bold.iron]

My 16 year old son wants to be a astrophysicist, and has been saving for a couple of years and is ready to buy his first telescope. We are after some hints/help please, below are the relevant things I can think of that might help in decision making:


He has AUD$1200 to spend
He is smart and wants to learn
He believes this is the start of a long journey into looking up
We already have a DSLR
We live in a semi rural area on a small acreage



I asked him to rate his features 1 to 10:


Look at stuff in space (1) vs Take photos of stuff in space (10) = 5
Deep space (1) vs Our solar system (10) = 3
Automatic/Easy/point and shoot (1) vs Hard/Advanced/Learn lots (10) = 7.5
Only used at home (1) vs Take it on holidays (1) = 6.5


If there are any more important requirements that are worth considering, let me know.



We would appreciate any help you can offer.

[croweater]

G,day mate. For that kind of money a 8 or 10 inch dobsonian will be by far best value for your dollar. Look at Bintel, Andrews Communication or Astroanarchy for what's on offer.
Cheers, Richard

[gaseous]

Well done to you and your son. As Richard mentioned, for $1200 your best bet for visual is probably an 8"-10" dob. This won't be motorised, but with a DSLR camera you may be able to take some quick exposure photos. It will certainly provide great deep sky views and be a good learning curve for him to build up his knowledge of the night sky in conjunction with an astronomy app like stellarium or skysafari.



From experience, I would say that after having a non-GOTO scope for a while, he might start to hanker for something a little more hi-tech with GOTO, which will open up a lot more of the sky for him, as well as providing tracking, which is a big bonus, although it still won't be ideal for long exposure photography. I'm not a photography aficionado, but from the little I know, you'd probably need a fair bit more than $1200 to get a decent equatorial mount and scope setup to allow for long exposure deep sky photography. Best of luck.

[Startrek]

My youngest daughters father in law bought an Skywatcher 8” Goto Dobsonian telescope a few months ago ( my recommendation) and loves it ( he’s 71 years old )
Easy to move out of the garage with a Bunnings collapsible light duty parcel trolley
He can set it up in the home or start position in 10mins , 2 Star align in 15mins
Tracking is good , Goto has good accuracy
Optics are excellent, he uses eye pieces at both ends of the market ( GSO , Skywatcher and Televue)
You can use a DSLR in this Telescope ( prime focus ) for Astro imaging using Lucky imaging techniques ( short exposures )

He’s observed open clusters , globular clusters , nebula , larger galaxies, moon and planets …….
Prior to this he owned a GSO 10” Manual operated Dob and was frustrated waisting time Star hopping trying to find objects !!!
Andrews had one in stock for only $1650 so he jumped at it

Very happy astronomer

He’s located in Bortle 6/7 Sydney ( south ) outer suburban

Good luck with your sons journey

[Dave882]

Hi - it looks like you’re asking all the right questions. A 8-10inch dob would be a great starting point for that money, but will be quite frustrating when it comes to astrophotography (which was listed as one of the favoured goals). My advice would be to keep an eye in the 2nd hand market which could well provide an offering of a small GOTO tracking EQ mount and refractor package within your budget. For example, there is a eq5 and ed72 for sale on IIS right now for $1100 for both. Something like that would be far superior for photography. Alternatively a 2nd hand 6-8inch sct on tracking mount may be in your budget and be good for visual and short exposure EAA (electronic assisted astrophotography). EAA is (in my opinion) an excellent pathway into astrophotography.

The second hand market requires a degree of care and discretion on purchasing, but can provide some quite good quality gear at a more affordable price (kits often include lots of peripherals that could easily blow a budget). Also, if he decides to go in a different direction you can often sell it for virtually the same price.

All the best for you and your son’s future stargazing and scientific endeavours!

[Crater101]

I can't argue with what's been said here in terms of value for money, but I'd add simply not to forget giving a good refractor some consideration as well. Often easy to transport and rarely needs collimation. It can be put onto a decent mount.


I'd also support the notion of not diving into a GoTo mount just yet. They're a great thing, don't get me wrong, but without it you have to visually learn the night sky. A handy skill for a budding astrophysicist.


Let us know how you go. I look forward to reading your son's name in the scientific journals in years to come.

[EpickCrom]

Hi mate, good to hear that your son is interested in Astronomy :thumbsup:

I'm purely a visual observer and as others have said a dobsonian reflector of 8" to 10" aperture is the perfect choice there. I started three years ago with a 10 inch dobsonian as my first ever scope after two years learning the sky with 10x50mm binoculars.

However you mentioned you son is interested in astrophotography. I would suggest that he starts with visual first to learn his way around the sky before plunging into astrophotography. You mention that you are located in a semi rural area which would be great for visual observing! I also recommend an app like Sky Safari which is extremely helpful in getting to learn the night sky.

A long and fascinating journey lies ahead for your son ( and hopefully for you as well ;) All the best!

[bold.iron]

First of all thank you to all who replied, this is really helpful.



Reading these and then continued our research was some roller coaster of thoughts and ideas. Can I please get some confirmation on some thoughts.


* Non computerised is a great starting position to help learn.

* A GOTO mount is handy, but for someone wanting to learn, it can come after.
* A equatorial mount is necessary for long exposure photography.
* A 8-10" Dobsonian sounds like good bang for buck
* Second hand would offer even better bang for buch, however with not prior knowledge we might get into trouble





So from there, we are starting to think we will spend all our money on a telscope and reuse an existing solid DSLR tripod for 6months, then think about something a little smarter in the tripod space. He has already spent 12months looking through binoculars and a borrowed 600mm SLR lens, so hoping some of that will translate to a telescope.


So the questions we have:


There were a few refractor recommendations. We couldnt work out why? Why would you refractor vs dobsonian?
I assume equatorial by itself is a mechanical thing and you have to adjust the counter weight to get it right? where as GoTo with tracking is electrical, and a little more set and forget?
I believe not all GoTo are equatorial/tracking, is this right?
We see some dobsonian have more like a frame and not a complete tube, I assume the only advantage of these is compact for travel, and they would then start to introduce the disadvantage of extra light getting in?
Can you get a scope like this, and later add a GOTO mount - https://www.bintel.com.au/product/starsense-explorer-8-smartphone-app-enabled-dobsonian-telescope/
Can you get a scope like this, and add it to a DSLR tripod - https://www.amazon.com/SkyWatcher-S11540-Maksutov-Cassegrain-180mm-Black/dp/B00Z4HVTT0



If its also not too much to ask, can we get some example photos please. i.e. what would you expect with a 8 vs 10" and a long (tracking) vs short exposure in DSO vs local solar system?



THen thinking way into the future, is the idea to attach something like this instead of the DSLR? https://www.amazon.com/SVBONY-Telescope-Astronomy-Astrophotography-Compatible/dp/B09XQY6RG2/ Does something like this really give a much better photo that a DSLR?



thanks again for all the help

[The Mekon]

OK, if astrophotography is your aim, right now on this site's classifieds -

EQ5 Goto Mount $650
Evostar 72mm scope $300

great start for AP. The focal length is a bit short for visual.

If you are anywhere in my area, pop me a p.m. and I will give you an observing night with a sample of equipment.

[gaseous]

I'll preface my answers by saying I'm purely visual and have avoided EQ mounts like the plague, so others with more experience in these matters may correct me if I'm speaking through my hat.

The caps lock is to highlight my answers - I'm not yelling :D.



"* Non computerised is a great starting position to help learn. CORRECT

* A GOTO mount is handy, but for someone wanting to learn, it can come after. SURE. IF YOU STAY WITH DOBS, YOU’LL POSSIBLY WANT GOTO SOONER RATHER THAN LATER
* A equatorial mount is necessary for long exposure photography. CORRECT
* A 8-10" Dobsonian sounds like good bang for buck CORRECT, FOR VISUAL.
* Second hand would offer even better bang for buch, however with not prior knowledge we might get into trouble. CORRECT, ALTHOUGH WITH A NON-GOTO SCOPE, BOUGHT THROUGH IIS, THE CHANCES OF A SIGNIFICANT ISSUE ARE PRETTY SLIM. I WOULD EXPECT THAT PEOPLE WHO OFFLOAD DODGY GEAR GET A BAD REPUTATION PRETTY QUICKLY

So from there, we are starting to think we will spend all our money on a telscope and reuse an existing solid DSLR tripod for 6months, then think about something a little smarter in the tripod space. He has already spent 12months looking through binoculars and a borrowed 600mm SLR lens, so hoping some of that will translate to a telescope.


So the questions we have:


There were a few refractor recommendations. We couldnt work out why? Why would you refractor vs dobsonian? REFRACTORS ARE GENERALLY A LOT SMALLER/PORTABLE THAN A DOB, AND ARE USUALLY MOUNTED ON AN EQ OR COMBINED EQ/ALT-ALT MOUNT, SUITABLE FOR LONG EXPOSURE PHOTOGRAPHY AS THE MOUNT WILL TRACK WITH THE ROTATION OF THE EARTH. WHILE YOU CAN GET AN IMAGING NEWTONIAN, A LOT OF NEWTONIANS ON ALT-ALT BASES (IE, DOBS) ARE MAINLY USED FOR VISUAL, AS THE LARGER APERTURE PROVIDES MORE LIGHT GATHERING THAN A SMALLER REFRACTOR, AND THEREFORE A BETTER RESOLVED IMAGE FOR DIMMER DSO’S. YOU CAN STILL GET LOVELY SHARP VIEWS THROUGH A SMALLER REFRACTOR, BUT APERURE IS KING FOR VISUAL ONLY WORK (SO THE OLD SAYING GOES).
I assume equatorial by itself is a mechanical thing and you have to adjust the counter weight to get it right? where as GoTo with tracking is electrical, and a little more set and forget? AN EQ MOUNT CAN BE MOTORISED OR NOT, BUT YOU’D STILL NEED TO GET THE COUNTERWEIGHTS CORRECT REGARDLESS.
I believe not all GoTo are equatorial/tracking, is this right? MOTORISED EQ MOUNTS WILL TRACK WITH THE ROTATION OF THE EARTH, MOTORISED DOBS (GOTO) WILL ALSO TRACK, BUT THEY DON’T ALLOW FOR FIELD ROTATION AS THE SKY WHEELS ABOUT THE CELESTIAL POLES, SO LONG EXPOSURE PHOTOS ON A GOTO DOB WILL SHOW THE IMAGE AND STARS BLURRED DUE TO THIS ROTATION.
We see some dobsonian have more like a frame and not a complete tube, I assume the only advantage of these is compact for travel, and they would then start to introduce the disadvantage of extra light getting in? CORRECT, SLIGHTLY MORE SPACE SAVING, BUT YOU CAN BUY A LIGHT SHROUD TO WRAP AROUND THE EXPOSED FRAME TO PREVENT LIGHT GETTING IN.
Can you get a scope like this, and later add a GOTO mount - https://www.bintel.com.au/product/st...ian-telescope/ (https://www.bintel.com.au/product/starsense-explorer-8-smartphone-app-enabled-dobsonian-telescope/) DUNNO ABOUT THE CELESTRON DOBS, BUT THE SKYWATCHER DOBS CERTAINLY HAVE THE CAPACITY TO ADD THE GOTO SYSTEM LATER. BEAR IN MIND, THE GOTO UPGRADE COST IS 50%-75% OF THE ORIGINAL SCOPE COST, SO IT’S A LOT OF COIN TO UPGRADE. YOU MAY BE BETER OFF SELLING THE NON-GOTO DOB AND GETTING A NEW GOTO MODEL FOR THE SAME OUTLAY
Can you get a scope like this, and add it to a DSLR tripod - https://www.amazon.com/SkyWatcher-S1.../dp/B00Z4HVTT0 (https://www.amazon.com/SkyWatcher-S11540-Maksutov-Cassegrain-180mm-Black/dp/B00Z4HVTT0) ONE OF THE RESIDENT CAMERA JOCKEYS WOULD NEED TO ANSWER THAT."

[wavelandscott]

I might also offer a couple of thoughts…since you are both new, I would suggest joining an astronomy club…there are a number around. Some even offer learner scopes to borrow. Also a few viewing nights out with the group will allow you an opportunity to see some gear and try out a few things with knowledgeable and enthusiastic folks who I am confident will be thrilled to have some new (and younger) members…

After that, get your (son’s) money out and buy with some confidence.

There will also be a few other useful observation aids (like a good adjustable height chair, Telrad etc) that will certainly add to the viewing experience.

[Merlin66]

If he is serious about a possible career as an astrophysicist, then I'd introduce him to spectroscopy.
You can get a star analyser grating and mount it on front of your DSLR lens and obtain useable spectra. Spectroscopy 101.
Astrophysicists very seldom even look through telescopes! they look at the data collected by others.
Seriously, by all means have fun learning about the sky, the constellations, the brighter stars and the beautiful nebulae visible in our southern sky, but think about how you can/could support the youngster in his scientific journey.
http://www.astronomicalspectroscopy.com/analysis.html

[Merlin66]

I would also recommend a good book to reinforce the learning.
I used this book for night classes in astronomy many years ago and all the users felt it helped them and the question and answer sections were good to set some targets.
Dinah L Moche “Self Teaching Guide to Astronomy” published by Wiley.
It covers all aspects of astronomy in 12 Chapters over 336 pages.
Strongly recommended.

[The Mekon]

"bold iron" seems to have gone quiet amongst all this excellent advice.
Perhaps a true story from my past may cause him to re-think his outlook - not that I would wish to discourage him at all, just be aware of the facts.

When I was 15, my first choice of career was also to be an astronomer. I elected to study the required Level 1 maths and physics in high school but struggled with the higher learning and soon realised I would not make it.
As many on this forum know, after high school I went to sea as a ship's officer (they use the stars for navigation) and pursued that until retirement.
Some years back when I was a ship's captain, I saw an advertisement in "The Australian" newspaper for astronomers at ANU. The job entailed working on campus, and at the AAT. Requirements for the positions were extensive - PhD's and much more. Clearly only open to very smart qualified people, much brighter than me!
Then I looked at the salary range - the pay was less than half what I was then earning.
Fact is that we do not pay our scientists well in Australia. Be aware of that when putting in the many hours of necessary study.

[Merlin66]

John makes a good but sad point!
I likewise thought about astronomy in my youth and did my Bsc (Hons) with a design study of the Isaac Newton Telescope.
A couple of professional astronomers I met said their biggest issue was getting time to do their research on one of the large telescopes. There are many more astronomers than there are research grade telescopes.



Something like a three year wait period for some programs on some telescopes.


Later in life there was an opportunity to work as a engineer at Siding Spring.
Even with the free house (up the mountain) the salary was about half that I was on.....with three kids etc etc. It wasn't a real option. Such is life.

[dannat]

*i would go against the dobsonian recommendation, great for visual, but hard to mount & long focal length for photography, there is ad ed80 triplet in he classifieds here, very good photography device, and decent for planet visual -satisfies his requirements, also light weight so mounting is not hard & expensive. he might want to get into EAA, take long exposures & use software to create a good image on an iPAd to look at -can also be sued for photos -the commercial units start at $3K, so best to get scopes & separate mount -then use other software

[Malewithatail]

"Later in life there was an opportunity to work as a engineer at Siding Spring."


If I had known what I know about myself now, I would be working for NASA, the same organization that means "never a straight answer".

[xelasnave]

What's this "never a straight answer" nonsense...if you can fault the press releases of NASA complain about their press agent/ public relations officer not cast such wide generalisations usually run out by rat bags who have no understanding of how journalism works.

To say such stuff is just plain wrong and indefensible.

What job do you feel you could hold down at NASA ?... press agent and public relations officer? OR Head Rocket Enginner? Truck driver? Cleaner? Please be specific but first explain your negative comment "never a straight answer" in relation to some specific news release whatever.



Alex

[bold.iron]

thank you everyone for this great information. Sorry for the delay in response, we went camping for the end of the school holidays.



Based on a suggestion from this thread we have decided to visit the local Astronomical Society meeting, and check out a viewing night. Oh and of course, it wouldn't be a hobby if it didn't include raising the budget.


thanks again, I will report back when we have a plan.

[Rod-AR127]

What was the outcome then?

:shrug:

[bold.iron]

Got sick, and project put on hold. Life if back to normal now, and schoo work experience starts in 2 weeks with a Astrophysics team. Will commit after that.


Getting close.

[JA]

As far as the equipment is concerned I like John's advice earlier in the thread (Hello John), of the HEQ5 and Evostar 72 that were listed in the classifieds.

As far as any career is concerned, .... Choose carefully depending on your loves, strengths and goals.

Best
JA

[Paulywoo]

Hey,
I see that your rural and on acreage, me too. I just wanted to let you know about a few MOOCs I completed a while back and would recommend them to anyone wanting to learn about astrophysics.
I did 4 interconnected courses on the edX platform These were offered by the ANU and the instructors, Paul Francis (worth it just for the vests!) and Brian Schmitt (Nobel Laureate) Made the courses totally understandable. I managed to complete them, paid for a certificate (ego???) and learnt heaps. I cant overstate how knowing how all that stuff above our heads works increases the wonder of the night (and day) sky. Also a nice way of getting your feet wet.


As for 'scopes, I bought a second hand C8 and Orion 80mm refractor for a good price, forked out some dosh on an EQ6-R, happy days! The C8 is great at gathering data, spectrums, photometry etc, but the 80mm just makes things look 'pretty'. If I was just looking, I'd go the refactor any day. But really, give the edX MOOCs a look.
Cheers