Thought on Autonomous Vehicle Driving in Australia

[glend]

You may have thought that autonomous driving vehicles are only found in other countries, like the USA (Tesla specifically), but I can assure you they are out there on the M1, and other busy high speed roads, in Australia everyday. This does not get much media coverage. I have endured a pretty stressful trip on the M1, at night, in a high end BMW M5, in which much if the trip was under autonomous control of the vehicles systems. My son--in-law was the monitoring driver (hands off).
I have heard from another family member ( the owner if a high end Mercedes) who also has autonomous driving mode, who claims he feels much safer hauling his kids around on these high speed roads with the cars system in control. His argument hinges on the cars ability to react being faster than his, and it cannot be distracted.
What are your thoughts on the use of these autonomous driving systems, in high speed situations on our roads?:question:

[xelasnave]

I love the idea...I wonder how they would manage the roads around here?
Probably more money than I will spend on a car..unless it becomes a necessity, which can't be far off...unless I am in the red car I think driving is such a waste of my time...like I have to go to town today so say good bye to at least three hours...
Alex

[dikman]

I thought it was illegal to use an "autonomous" vehicle on our roads.

[Hans Tucker]

My question is Why do we need Autonomous vehicles? Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable entrusting driving to an Autonomous vehicle.

Also, if the data from the Tesla trials is anything to go by the technology still needs a lot of work.

[glend]

Well, perhaps it is, but the manufacturers are selling cars in Australia with the capability, and have not disabled the feature. Maybe it falls on the driver to just not use it, but there are plenty of confused people. Maybe dealships are just not mentioning it, or using the "Nudge, nudge, wink, wink" signalling to mask it.

[leon]

How do these things handle off road, ya know a trip to the cape for instance, and it gets to a river crossing r a bog hole full of mud and the computer decides it is to deep, or slippery how dose that work.:shrug:

I am with Hans a waste of time in my book I would rather be in control and cross that river to deep or not, that is the fun and skill needed for a real Australian adventure.;)

My two cents worth.:thumbsup:

Leon :thumbsup:

[AstroViking]

Nope. No. Nyet. Nein.

I don't trust them at all.

There is (allegedly) a legal case going on at the moment where a car hit a pedestrian. The driver is claiming they are not at fault because the car was in autonomous mode at the time, and it should have responded in time.

So who is at fault? The driver? The car dealer for selling the car? The car manufacturer? The company that made the radar/lidar/sonar system? The programmer who wrote the object detection code for the "radar"?

I'd much, much rather see more resources spent on better driver training.

[xelasnave]

I dont know..you guys are presented with the best thing ever and all you can do is pass judgement without any personal experience...
Here is an idea...before you form an opinion why not actually get some evidence that either supports your knee jerk opinion or shows it to be unfounded.

And seriously commenting on a legal case without knowing all the facts never works.

Further study history and observe how the mob has made these types of judgements only to be looked back upon as rather silly.

Further do you think for one moment any car manufacture will offer a product that is going to bring countless legal suits...

Alex

[julianh72]

There are plenty of cars on the road with basic, limited autonomous capabilities for highway driving. The systems are generally described as "driver aids" or "safety systems", rather than "self-driving". Some are woeful, and some are very good.

My 2021 Hyundai i30 and 2022 Hyundai Ioniq both have Lane Following Assist, Adaptive Cruise Control, and Autonomous Emergency Braking. In practice, it means I can set my desired cruising speed on the highway, and the car will drive itself, staying in the centre of the lane, and maintaining a safe distance to the car ahead. They will slow down to a standstill if necessary, without any trouble or fuss. I have to keep my hands on the wheel, but I don't have to input any steering effort. If I take my hands off the wheel for 5 seconds or so, the car will beep at me, and after a few more seconds, it will disable the automatic driving aids. (I've only ever tested this when I was alone on an empty multi-lane highway, just to see what happens.) In practice, I always have my hands resting lightly on the wheel, and remain alert and in control. I tend to find that my hands are following the car's self-steering round a bend, as much or more than I'm steering it - it sort of feels like the car is reading my mind as to how to negotiate the curve.

They are far and away the most relaxing highway driving cars I've ever owned. The "self-driving" aids are the best new car technology for many years, and I look forward to the next generation of cars with even more sophisticated systems - I'll use all of the systems available to me as the technology advances. I suspect I will gradually relinquish more and more control to the autonomous vehicles as they improve, until one day I'll discover my car really is driving itself!

[Hans Tucker]

:mad2: How about you let people have an opinion regardless of whether if it is based on experience or not. For my own reasons I do not welcome fully Autonomous vehicles .. I think in some respects technology makes the human race stupid. My opinion if you dont like it .. too bad.

[xelasnave]

Well I don't like your opinion.

Alex

[AdamJL]

Can't wait for it to be rolled out. Too many stupid drivers on the road. Having AI control cars will be better. Mistakes will be made, I'm sure, but I bet not to the extent of what happens now.

[mura_gadi]

I really like the idea of driverless cars that could communicate with each other and eliminate several very expensive factors -

traffic lights , installation runs from 500k to 5million plus... the annual 24/7 call out cost for a set of lights is also very high...

Eliminate the stop/go cycle which adds greatly to the carbon emissions of every journey.

Reduce hospital admissions - while 1,200 people die on the roads, 40,000 people are hospitalised of which 10,000 are rated as "high level of threat to life" injuries. That is a lot of serious long term carnage every year... *

However I think the best use for autonomous cars is to have the cars drive themselves out of the CBD after the daily commute. You could open up a lot of additional business and residential space if you could refurbished carparks into buildings. Biggest waste of a car is the commute to leave them close by for 8 hours a day, no reason why the car couldn't go a short distance out and park for the day and be called back on demand. A small and simple change that still allows people to drive recklessly but could help our cities a lot.

But the fears of horseless carriages seems to be reborn for driverless carriages, its not like we have track records that would be hard to beat in regards to safety.


* https://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/road_deaths_australia_annual_summar ies#:~:text=2021%3A%20At%20a%20glan ce,year%20to%201%2C100%20per%20year . Open the xls and look at table 1.21.

[Hans Tucker]

Trouble is Councils are pushing to remove cars from the CBD's.

I see merit in Autonomous Vehicles for freeway driving.

Question. Would people feel comfortable with Fully Autonomous Aircraft, remove the pilot entirely?

I really don't know why we dont have fully Autonomous Trains.

[Camelopardalis]

Given the kind of driving I see on the motorway regularly, I can’t wait until the computers are driving :P

What are the 3 biggest killers on our roads, so we’re told?

1. Speed
2. Alcohol
3. Fatigue

The computer won’t speed, unless it’s told to, it won’t drink when it shouldn’t and it won’t get tired. And with any luck, it won’t get angry at tailgaters and break check…and cause more accidents :shrug:

[glend]

Hans, most of the most modern aircraft are already fully autonomous. Capable of taking off on auto pilot, navigating the route and around weather, and landing using the airport ILS systems. Mostly pilots just monitor the AI. There has been discussion of reducing airline cockpit crews to just a single pilot. On long haul flights over oceans airlines are still required to carry multiple crews, but many of these folks never touch the controls, it's a monitoring function, but staffing is determined by flight time regulations for crew rest periods. AI does not get tired.

[ReidG]

I drive a Tesla S and have for about three years. I like the car but its so called Full Self Driving is not any such thing. It is not approved to be used in that way anywhere in the world.


It is not good reasoning to note that human drivers make mistakes, of course they do, and conclude that an automated system will not, that has to be proven not assumed.



It has yet to be proved to the satisfaction of authorities anywhere that any car manufacturer can supply such a system. A fully automated system is Class 5, most today are Class 2, with Germany having approved a Mercedes as Class 3 in restricted circumstances. There is a long way to go despite a great deal of money having been spent by major companies including Google and Apple. It may happen one day but it has not happened yet.



Any Australian driver not monitoring the vehicle and being ready to take over in an instant might be well advised to get a legal opinion about his liability. As it stands the driver is responsible seems tot be the clear view.



No manufacturer is close to being able to demonstrate an automated system for the general driving case. What they have achieved is the car to be able to manage the driving in particular cases such as well behaved freeway traffic.



To get an idea of the state of the art I suggest having a look at


https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-software-updates-australia.172268/


and


https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/phantom-braking-return.290542/


Like me most owners love their Teslas but opinion on self driving is far from universal approval. The same situation appears to exist with other manufacturers but for now there are far more Teslas out there on Australian roads.

[gary]

Hi Hans,

In Sydney we do. :) The Metro has been operating with driverless trains
for over three years and has moved in excess of 50 million commuters.

You can even stand at the front window where the driver traditionally
was and watch the view.

The Sydney Metro is currently undergoing a major expansion.

[The_bluester]

I reckon autonomous cars are going to be a legal minefield for the reasons others have given above and the current "Assistive" systems still very much so. When it goes pear shaped (And it still does) who is responsible? The tech needs to be bullet proof and the legal quandaries sorted first. I detest the Tesla habit of beta testing safety critical functions by selling them to anyone who wants to buy it (Knowing that what they can supply here is limited compared to the US market)

I have driven a few cars with semi autonomous "assist" features like radar cruise and lane keeping assist, the only ones I would give you money for are the radar cruise in my wifes Everest (Which works a lot better than others I have used) the cross traffic alert when reversing which is useful as it will throw an audible alarm and flash a direction on the screen for instance when you are reversing out of a parking spot, before you can physically see the car coming.

Autonomous braking is a maybe, anyone can get caught out by glancing in a mirror just when the iced up junkie passes you on the footpath then stops dead in front of you to punish you for not going over the speed limit. That one literally happened to me in a work kia and I was braking hard before it stopped beeping and started braking for itself, but another moment looking in the mirror and it may well have saved my bacon. But then the same Kia reacts horribly to cars travelling slowly or stopped in front of you but turning off the road, any competent human can see that they would be long gone before you arrive but the car would respond with a panic stop, it nearly got me rear ended a number of times. It's radar cruise was mostly OK but responded very badly to a car passing you and pulling in a little close in front (90% of cars passing you on a multi lane freeway in other words) as it would brake hard then speed up again as the gap opened up, for a car that would have had an appropriate gap in a second or so anyway. The Everest would generally never do more than moderate the power a little until the gap opened up. The Kia trained you to jump on the accelerator when a car cut in close in front of you instead of hovering over the brake.

The less said about all the lane keep assist systems I have experienced to date the better. Safe to say that all I have used so far were quickly turned off. Ditto speed sign recognition, I am glad the Everest just flashes a symbol at you on the dash when it reckons you have missed a speed change as every "40 at school times" sign has it waving it's arms around to get your attention while you do 60 in a 60 zone, and every "60 ahead" or similar speed change warning sign has it flashing at you as though the speed limit has already changed. The Everest is the previous gen one so it may be better in the current car. I would hate to have it actually changing the cruise control set speed instead of just flashing a symbol at you.

Until autonomous cars can be a 100% hands off, have a nap while it takes you home type of experience I am not interested at all, and I would still want a weekender that is actually designed to let you enjoy the experience of driving instead of being white goods on wheels.

I know people who are too frightened to brake hard enough to bring on ABS in a panic stop, these are likely to be the people most attracted to the type of "Mostly" autonomous driving that Tesla and others offer overseas, imagine how they are likely to react when the car lets out a couple of beeps and suddenly dumps control back in their lap for something it can't cope with which needs an immediate decision and action!

[pmrid]

I have learnt to drive defensively - anticipating the other driver by expecting the worst. The other driver is something an autonomous vehicle must deal with better than a human driver can. But can it. Some of the aggressive, dangerous, stupid stuff you see all the time must be a challenge for the AV. And speed limits change all the time, particularly around roadworks. An AV will somehow have to be aware but that, too, will be a struggle.

I can see a use for AVs on long distance freight haulage - in fact, I believe it will revolutionise the industry in many ways. But the idiots of this world will always find a way to screw it up.

[N1]

It would have to be the person operating equipment in public space that then harms others. Seems pretty clear to me.

[Hans Tucker]

Some savvy Lawyer will present a case that will blame the manufacturer rather than the driver.

Reports revealed the US Department of Justice had launched a criminal investigation into Tesla in 2021, following more than a dozen motor vehicle accidents involving the US auto giant’s cars.

The investigation alleges drivers have placed too much reliance on Tesla's driver assistance technology because the names of the systems exaggerate their true capabilities and ignore their limitations.

Humans are idiots.

[sharkbite]

All that money on an M5 just so it can drive itself?
On a presumably empty M1?
(where's the fun in that! ;))

....once you hit pennant hills road and Sydney traffic however....

sign me up and wake me when we get there!:lol:

[ChrisD]

Researchers trick Tesla Autopilot into steering into oncoming traffic (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/04/researchers-trick-tesla-autopilot-into-steering-into-oncoming-traffic/)
By "researchers" I think they mean Hackers ;)

24 Self-Driving Car Statistics & Facts
(https://carsurance.net/insights/self-driving-car-statistics/) There are 9.1 driverless car crashes per million miles driven. (The National Law Review)
The self-driving car accident rate is higher than the one of human-driven vehicles. That is to say, regular vehicles have a rate of 4.1 crashes per million miles driven. Even though these cars’ goal is to prevent as many accidents as possible, they still have a long way to go to have a lower rate of accidents than regular cars. However, when comparing the severity of injuries, fewer severe injuries are caused by self-driving cars.


I think that governments will eventually need to develop a Star Rating system for autonomous driving systems. Something like the ANCAP ratings, so you know what level of safety you're purchasing.

Chris

[astro744]

How would an autonomous vehicle handle a flood situation with countless potholes and water up to the edge of the road for hundreds of metres or even kms on both sides and on a road with no breakdown lane either side with a 110km/h speed limit.

Would it slow down approaching a pothole? Any pothole or just the large ones? Would it swerve left into flood water or right into oncoming traffic? Would it know what the oncoming traffic is likely to do and react early enough! Would it break hard and stop at each pothole (perhaps cause a rear collision)?

If there is water over the road would it know by reading the warning signs prior or once it senses the water? Would it know the depth and go through because a car in front went through safely and the water reached half way up the wheel? Would it know the velocity and depth of the flood water?

Would the autonomous vehicle make the same decisions whether it is daytime or nighttime and be aware that food waters over the road are more difficult to judge the depth of a night. (Watching what a vehicle in front does is very useful in one’s decision making even though there is still risk). In fact is it riskier to wait and let flood waters rise or go through at a safe speed taking into consideration vehicle weight and payload, velocity and depth of flood water. Would such a vehicle simply stop half way through if it senses danger perhaps leaving the vehicle in more danger?

Would the monitoring driver react and override if sensing the car had made a dangerous decision or now that he/she has two hands free to use their mobile device would they even know what is happening?

The dynamics of a situation I describe have infinitesimal variations that need a supercomputer to manage and I don’t think AI cars are at supercomputer levels yet.

You say such a situation is unlikely. It was exactly like this Lightning Ridge to Gilgandra particularly the stretch from Walgett to Coonamble recently on the Castlereagh Highway during the flood period late October. That part of the highway has a black spot too for mobile service from any provider so no phone calls or information advisory app monitoring are possible.

If relying on real-time data to make decisions I think not. Flood over water information was at least 2 hours behind and that was around the major towns. This country is too big and does not have enough people and infrastructure to provide real time data in every situation.

[xelasnave]

In extreme situations there will be a robot travelling in front off the autonomous vehicle at walking pace carrying a red flag.

Alex

[astro744]

Please define extreme situation.

[xelasnave]

The one you describe;)
Alex

[astro744]

I thought you were joking. Please compile a list of other extreme situations. How will you know when your list is complete? The possibilities are endless since an infinitesimal variation in a dynamic situation can cause a vastly different outcome requiring a further assessment and action and the list goes on.

I personally am not ready to place my trust in an automated vehicle nor the programming behind it. Is it a legal requirement cars have steering wheels or is this because they just always have? If no legal requirement then why do automated vehicles have a steering wheel or is it because even the manufacturers don’t trust them and put one in just in case? Perhaps it is for the ‘extreme situation’ in which case the monitoring driver then needs to call for a robot escort to be ahead of the vehicle.;)

I wonder if it’s possible to enter an automated vehicle at the Bathurst race with no driver?

[oska]

For a flooded road, the car would stop and error something like "unable to proceed: path blocked or unable to be determined", as would you in a normal car, obviously.

Autonomous racing: https://www.youtube.com/c/Roborace

[AndyG]

Yamaha's Motobot appeals to my weakness of the machine wishing innocently to be more than it is...


https://global.yamaha-motor.com/design_technology/technology/motobot/past_initiatives/

[astro744]

“as would you in a normal car, obviously.”

No this is not as obvious as you may think. It will depend on many factors and this my point. You are assuming it is safer to stop and go no further than to proceed. You could be in more danger stopping and waiting for that water over the road to rise than crossing. Sure stop and evaluate the situation and by all means don’t cross if unsure but how is an automated vehicle going to evaluate the situation after stopping? I just hope those programming such automated vehicles don’t over simplify scenarios.

I think the priority should be 100% mobile coverage on any mobile network at least where there are roads before any automated vehicle technological advances. At least then you’ll be able to call someone when your vehicle stops because it came across water over the road or a pothole.

[xelasnave]

I wasnt joking but neither was I being serious.

I can understand folk have concerns and guess what car manufacturers are very interested in their concerns and working hard at producing vehicles that are safer than vehicles driven by humans...that is the game.

There is a place where there is a fleet of autonomous taxis...goggle that.

Driving is a task that requires many calculations and many observations and I am entirely confident that at some point a computer can do a far better job than any human..can a human maintain a 360 degree view ..no...think of this a computer can beat a human at chess..now not so long ago you would bet your house that such was not possible..in fact one could have lost a lot of houses betting against new inventions.

The way you put it one could assume you think humans are infalable and that simple skills such as driving a car can not be done by a machine...but we need bigger computers you say..now you are not in the business of producing autonomous cars but already you can focus on the problems..don't you think major car companies can employ people that with countless qualifications can not only work out the potential problems but solve them...you like so many who don't like the idea have formed that notion as a belief and as with all beliefs the evidence so often shows that your belief is wrong.

Now why would you say that having autonomous cars race at Bathurst to be impossible..I bet ( not my house but say $10) that within our lifetimes such a thing will happen.

What is to prevent it..make a list and I bet the car manufactures already have teams of clever people working on the problem.

You can stick with the past but the future is here and the for best ..the "against" with autonomous cars is your perogative and you can complain and build straw men as I don't care because I suspect ( know) what you are worried about will all be fixed...there is so much money and manpower invested it ain't going to stop.

Anyways I am going to have a look at the Hyundai as the assisted driving appeals to me..I welcome change and am ready to jump on any benefit it brings.

Alex

[Hans Tucker]

Yet again reading into people's response things that weren't said. He said I wonder if it’s possible to enter an automated vehicle at the Bathurst race with no driver?, he never said impossible.

[xelasnave]

Well spotted Hans ...I hope that put some joy into your evening...I could back pedal and change it I suppose like you did with your wild generalisation about all humans being idiots...was that what you said...I can't find it now..did you think better of your bitter outburst?

It was rather clear what I was responding to and hardley called for your nit picking generated because I have annoyed you by showing you to be wrong... get over it.

Alex

[glend]

Please don't get this thread killed.

[xelasnave]

You are right Glen.

To Hans..I am sorry for annoying you I recognise that I can be over the top at times.

And I will sincerely try to be more respectful of the opinions of others in the future.



Alex

[RB]

:)

[xelasnave]

I hope posting this link is not seen as off topic but I do hope that it may help folk get a glimpse of what is being done these days which would have been unimaginable only fifty years ago.

https://youtu.be/Wu1kpnCylKQ

Alex

[ReidG]

Cars good. Self driving not up to much.


This article is about Tesla of course but I have friends with other brands and none get close to real safe self driving.


https://electrek.co/2023/01/13/tesla-new-autopilot-full-self-driving-hardware-leaks/


As an interested engineer I keep close tabs on the industry and no manufacturer is close to achieving genuine self driving. Australia is probably particularly difficult because of our generally poorly engineered and maintained roads.



What we do have is some, at times very brave, owners assuming the car is capable of more than it is. Several in the US have been killed as a result of over confidence in the car automation.



This is a pity because electric cars are easy and generally fun to drive. I recently had a young woman take her first ever drive of any car in my Tesla S. She did very well and did not scare either me or her parents who were in the back seat.



What happens is still the responsibility of the guy in the drivers seat, read the fine print on what the manufacturer says not the vastly optimistic PR nonsense.

[muletopia]

As ReidG says " Australia is probably particularly difficult because of our generally poorly engineered and maintained roads.'


Some of us live in rural locations with generally unsealed roads, frequently narrow,
I find the main hazards are kangaroos, fallen trees sheep and the rare oncoming traffic.
At harvest time the traffic mainly consists of road trains carting grain, they take all the formed road. When autonomous vehicles can cope with these and decide whether to drive over the tree or round it on or off the formed road (or go home and get a chainsaw) they are of no use here.
Chris
PS The upside of living here is that my back yard ob is under bortle 1 sky

[ReidG]

I do envy your Bortle.

[EpickCrom]

Chris, you are one very lucky guy. I have driven past your way at night, those pitch black bortle 1 skies are to die for!:eyepop:

[leon]

Agreed Chris, love to see then compete with a Road Train
Apparently two more have come to grief, one just stopped for no reason and caused a 8 car pile up, and one ended up into a pool, overseas somewhere.:sadeyes:

I will just drive my Car till I am to old, and that might not be so far away.:shrug:

Now you control yourself Andrew.:lol:

Leon:thumbsup:

[The_bluester]

I suppose that is the crux of it. If I am responsible for whatever happens when some software engineer makes a typo or some "edge" case of 16 different things happening occurs (The old OH&S swiss cheese model) then leave the job to me thanks. I will live with some simple things like radar assisted cruise control (Though having one car with it and one which you drive less which is without it leads to moments as you realise it is not going to settle in behind the car at a good distance) Autonomous braking I am less keen on due to my experiences of it getting in a flap over turning cars etc, I hate the feel of lane keep assist tweakign the steering etc...

If you "Need" autonomous braking or lane keeping assistance then you are likely either too tired or just not concentrating on the job and you should just stop, not let the car take over the housekeeping stuff.

[RB]

:lol: :thumbsup:

[sharkbite]

:lol::lol::lol: This is what they did when cars first started to replace horses!



I have over 35 years driving experience, but i'm just a suburban boy and would struggle to come to terms with the situation described, let alone a less experienced, or dare i say 'competent'? human driver.

I'm thinking of some possible benefits when it comes to say driving the the big smoke, where infrastructure is better, and traffic is worse.

- the reason we leave a 2-3 second gap between cars is the generally poor reaction time of our puny human circuits trying to trigger our slow muscles.
In Manufacturing, AI can monitor products on a production line, and react in milliseconds, removing faulty products from the line.
If cars could autonomously brake based upon data such as the brake lights, or perhaps data from cars all around (maybe 6 cars in front) we could reduce this gap and get better traffic flow.

- with the same sensors, cars could leave the lights in a 'train' and get more cars through the lights in one go, rather than waiting for dopey up the front to get a-movin'

- if cars could all talk to each other, they could detect a rogue car about to run a red, and stop traffic from entering its path.

- with the same 'chatting' ability maybe we dont need lights at all, and traffic could be calculated to run without stopping.

These are pretty basic examples, and i'm sure wouldn't survive close scrutiny, but are worth thinking about - computer systems would be able to cope with these scenarios.

[ReidG]

A friend brought this new Mercedes electric by yesterday so a test drive was in order.

As with the other electrics it is an easy and fun car to drive with no noticeable problems in any department.


Sitting there anxiously watching a computer try to drive is far far more stress than actually driving the car myself. Humans are terrible at sitting watching, the mind drifts off to more interesting things. Computers are excellent at watching humans however, they do not get bored or distracted.


My solution is drive the Tesla myself and have fun and if anyone ever does get a self driving system which works for the general case I can get it then. I do not expect to live long enough to have to worry about that, it may take 25 years. It may never happen given the complexity of reality.

[sharkbite]

Question: More, or less stressful than sitting there watching a Learner try to drive?

:lol:

I'm tipping if you tell the Merc to stop - it will do it!

[gary]

One of the major sponsors for autonomous vehicle, aircraft, ships and
robots over the decades has been DARPA - the Defense Advanced Research
Projects Agency which is a research and development agency of the United
States Department of Defense responsible for the development of emerging
technologies for use by the US military.

These are the same people that helped bring about the Internet, GPS
and the stealth bomber.

Now and then they offer prize money for successfully completing one
of their DARPA Challenges, such as a successful demonstration of
autonomous driving.

In February last year, DARPA, Lockheed-Martin and Sikorsky demonstrated
an autonomous Blackhawk helicopter running sorties by ferrying loads.
Interested readers can learn more about that here including a short video :-
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/news/features/2022/safe-reliable-and-uninhabited-first-autonomous-black-hawk-flight.html

Compared to civilian autonomous vehicle demands and requirements,
the smarts required for military vehicles is a double-edge sword.
For example, whereas as a tank in a combat engagement doesn't need to
bother with traffic lights and which way to go around a roundabout,
it still has to deal with getting over or around obstacles such as dunes,
tank traps, trenches and so on that are arguably as nuanced and
computationally difficult as a civilian car deciding what to do about
potholes, or a turtle crossing the road.

For me, by far the biggest technological advancement in the year 2022
was the huge improvements in AI neural network systems in particular
with language models and text to image systems.

What we now know is given rich enough training sets, neural networks
show great practical promise. In the future, purpose built neural networks
are likely to play a large part in self-driving cars.

For example, the training set may end up being sensors and cameras
from countless trips with humans at the wheel. Hundreds of millions of miles,
from thousands of drivers, in cities and roads across the world, encountering
everything from those pesky cyclists in a peloton to a roadblock and an armed
hold-up event in some suburb of Beirut.

[ReidG]

Well I have sort of tested that.:D


When I had a teenager with zero driving experience driving my Tesla we came across a horse. I suspect an automated system would have been in something of a quandary because it possibly had no idea what a horse is.


The learner driver handled it without concern or needing advice. She knew a lot about horses already, she also recognized that it had a rider who was an adult and clearly in control and on the other side of the road on the grass verge. She slowed down and moved to the left. Analysis completed and response implemented in a fraction of a second.



I have been using neural nets since last century and they have developed and improved. They can do great work under certain circumstances but so far they have zero capability to come to reasoned conclusions. Teenage drivers can do that.


This is the big challenge ahead in using neural nets and other software to handle driving. They are trained using vast data sets and really can do some very useful things better than humans. However our roads offer almost infinite possibilities for the unexpected. The expected is easy and the AI can be trained but it has no idea what to do when presented with the unfamiliar. As Elon Musk noted somewhat sadly after a bit of a fail in automation, 'humans are much underrated'.


A reference for the interested
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jan/13/chatgpt-explainer-what-can-artificial-intelligence-chatbot-do-ai


If you ask it for a recipe for an omelette, it’ll probably do a good job, but that doesn’t mean it knows what an omelette is.

[xelasnave]

Your appeal to authority is a classic no no when you apply the rules of logical fallacy but perhaps more so when you use Elton Musk as the authority as I suspect if you farmed his comments you may find he is more supportive of AI than you suggest.but It seems that you missed the point that Gary was trying to put on the table with your claim that AI has no idea what to do when presented with the unfamiliar given his last paragraph...it would seem that it will be the human that has the problem of "the unfamilar".

Perhaps the main thing to remember is the development of autonomous vehicles is a process and it is going very well and although folk argue against it the reality is like so many new inventions some folk will rail against them for no other reason then they have difficulty in accommodating change often evidenced by their inability to lay out specific issues that can not be overcome and further fail to realise that problems will only define the area of ultimate application of a new technology...the problems are invariably overcome or managed and change takes place leaving those resisting change the future objects of ridicule for their short sighted comments.

Alex

[ReidG]

I do not regard Musk as an authority:( More a lose canon who has done some good things but also made some big mistakes. A typical entrepreneur really taking big risks sometimes with other people's money.



Mr Musk is fallible as the rest of us really, just a lot braver. He did have a huge push to go for total automation on the initial Model 3 production line and had to back off which is when he made the comment about humans. Humans have admirable flexibility and can adapt to the unexpected better than any current automated driving system which is why there are no Class 5 systems out there yet.



Evolution has prepared humans fairly well for the task of driving. We all have ancestors who were successful hunter gatherers, they detected and reacted to threats like predators whilst being effective predators themselves. The unsuccessful ones did not have descendants. Driving is not all that dissimilar and nor is playing football. Those involved need to be aware of the world around them and react to often subtle signs which requires experience and reasoning to reduce false conclusions.

For Australians the difference between a tree stump and a kangaroo can be quite important and there is not time for a really good look. It is that sort of reasoning which for the moment at least has evaded most AI. They cannot yet draw conclusions and as one US expert (I am not) noted, it might be better to call the current state of the art Advanced Statistics.

[xelasnave]

Which expert and context please..

It seems to me the context in which you injected Mr Musks opinion fits the logical fallacy that I pointed out...I do not know about the man sufficiently to make any comment upon him.

As to evolution preparing us what you say may well be true so it is good that such evolved humans are the folk who write the software and produce these autonomous vehicles. I think you miss the fact that although we call AI as we do it is hardly artificial given the human input.

Now you seem preoccupied with the difference between things such that you seem to think a machine is not capable of being given the required sensors and programing to probably make far better judgement than either of us can...why would you think that a machine can not analyse whatever its constructors instruct it to do?

In any event may I suggest you keep a copy of your comments here and read them say in ten years time and at that point comment on your current opinion.

Most enjoyable chatting with you.

Alex

[rat156]

Hi All,

interesting discussion...

I have a Tesla model 3 and over the Christmas period we all got a "present" from Tesla of their Enhanced Autopilot (EAP) package which retails for $5k. It allowed us all to try out some of the Full Self Drive (FSD, $10k) enhancements, such as summon mode and autonomous driving on major roads (including things like autonomous lane changing and navigating to your exit. Most drivers would have tried them out I suspect. I did and hated it, but then I don't even use the self steering mode which is standard.

Why do I hate it, well it's a combination of things, but mostly because of the way it steers the car. I find the autopilot's approach to a constant radius curve to be underwhelming, it iteratively attacks the corner, steering into the corner, straigtening up, then turning again, makes me motion sick!

The attempt by the vehicle to negotiate a dual lane merge (where the right lane merges with the left of a freeway and the left lane is added, M8 to M80 inbound in Melbourne) was frightening.

There is a loooong way to go before we have anything that could be called FSD, Tesla should remove the option and refund peoples money.

Here's the things about autopilot (which is very similar to other manufacturer's assistance packages) which don't work...

Does not recognise overhead electronic speed signs.
Phantom braking
Braking unecessarily when vehicles slow or turn in front of you.
Lane keep assist
Lane departure warnings, don't swerve to miss that pothole, kangaroo, (child!), motorcycle with low mounted tail-lights...


Having said all that. I love driving the car, the acceleration is addictive, I'm going to buy and lease another one soon.

Cheers
Stu

[Hans Tucker]

So does Tesla treat owners like guinea pigs and collect data from your vehicles to help them refine onboard systems like the EAP and FSD?

[julianh72]

You bet they do! FSD has always been a Beta product since it was first released - and it is being tested by all the owners who have paid for it.

By the way - whether you own a Tesla or not, you are also helping them and other autonomous vehicle designers to improve their systems. Have you ever wondered why so many of those annoying Captcha grids that you need to access some web content require you to identify traffic lights, pedestrian crossings, motor cycles, etc? You didn't think that was just a randomly-generated test, did you? And you didn't think your responses were thrown away as having no value to anybody?

(Although I must admit - I'm puzzled as to what internet billionaire sponsored the last Captcha I had to use, and to what AI training purpose: identify all the Pandas on Armchairs. Has anybody seen a report of a Tesla driving full-speed into a panda sitting on an armchair in the middle of the highway, because it didn't recognise what it was seeing?)

[Boozlefoot]

Bloody pandas! They're everywhere out here.

[dikman]

The last Captcha I did this morning asked me to identify ladybugs, yesterday it was sunflowers. A bit hard to link them to autonomous driving.:lol:

[Kal]

The autonomous driving that is legal in Australia atm is really just driving assist tools, such as lane keeping and smart cruise control. The driver is still 100% responsible for the driving and needs to be alert and ready to take full control in an emergency situation. I view these tools in the same way as I view standard cruise control when it was introduced - it is just a tool available to the driver, and the driver still must pay attention and be prepared to take action.


Alot of other arguments in this thread about "what would the AI do in this situation?" are all moot since the driver must be in control of the vehicle. Just as I do not use cruise control on wet roads, the choice to deploy drive assist tools should be made accordingly to the conditions on the road.

[xelasnave]

Without straw men there would be no discussion;)

I never would have thought to take control of a car in flood waters I guess ..
Good to have sensible input...I hope you are going well.
Alex

[Malewithatail]

There is a valid application for such equipment, agriculture.


A modern planter, drawn by a 500 hp tractor, is so complicated, the 'driver' has no time to steer the tractor, so rely's on the auto steer function.



And whilst we are on the subject, electric tractors are not gunna work, ever, unless some really radical breakthroughs in tech happen. EG: A 500 hp tractor, say 380 kw, usually runs at pretty well full power, or sometimes more, when planting,harvesting etc. At that power, the biggest Tesla battery, which is 120 kwh, would last 120/380 hours, or about 18 minutes. Then another battery will be needed, giving another 18 minutes of work, now continue that for 23 hours a day during harvest, and you will need nearly 70 battery's, at $30k each. Got a spare 2 million ?


There is an application, the market garden with a 30 hp tractor would work.


Comments ?

[Boozlefoot]

"There is a valid application for such equipment, agriculture."

No different than public road use - it won't drive itself under all conditions and whoever is behind the wheel still has the ultimate responsibility.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-11/gps-blamed-for-rise-in-farmers-hitting-powerlines/101056726

[oska]

Simply untrue. You have to steer and keep an eye on the hopper level. That's it, assuming you're not getting clogged by trash. The rates are set (it's not a harvester) so don't need to be fiddled. I know coz I grew up on the land and did it as a child... GPS is for pretty lines and convenience

[The_bluester]

I think that semi-autonomous function is probably good in agriculture in some settings (To aid the operator when doing tasks which would otherwise be stultifyingly boring) but that news clipping is showing that in agricultural use the issues that the same problems of "How much data is enough" apply as they do to cars.

Plug the wrong data into a "Dumb" system that does not have clearance sensors or forget to program an obstacle and here you are. The problem in Ag though would be (And the crashes into power poles probably just highlights this) that as in cars, automate the basic driving of the machine when you are sowing a couple of hundred acres at a time and the operator's attention is invariably going to wander.

[doug mc]

From what I've read, the use of internal combustion engines in some areas will be with us for some time yet. It just maybe fossil fuel won't be used.

[ReidG]

https://www.thedrive.com/news/mercedes-benz-gets-approval-to-deploy-level-3-driving-tech-in-nevada

[The_bluester]

I do have to admit that a mostly autonomous Merc would leave me with more confidence than a Tesla given that the company is not founded so much in the "Take risks" ethos of a relative startup that seems to spill over in to sending safety critical stuff into the market effectively to test it using paying customers, under a name that hints at a lot higher level of capacity than it actually has.

[xelasnave]

That would seem more than reasonable.

The problem I see with either side of the electric car / fosill fuel etc arguement is things must be black or white...we must go electric..everything! No exceptions or the IC crew fight the electric car as if it were evil...there are places for both no doubt and before folk become dogmatic about getting rid of fossil fuel perhaps a regime of sensible energy use could be tried...it bothers me the number of lights on at night that are unnecessary, or the waste of fuel on toys and un necessary stuff... limits on motor size for racing perhaps...in Asia they drag race 150 cc motor bikes and it seems like a lot of fun and the engineering challenge is obvious so why not? Let's get real with tractor pulling...multi motor tractors just need to go...change the V8 Super Cars to V4 s... now I don't know what fuel could be saved but the important thing is it would be helpful to change this more power mentality that wastes resources...

In any event we are predominantly in a market economy and new products simply need to be better to survive...I find it funny that the reason Tesla cars seem to be loved is because of their acceleration...that seems the first comment from owners but tells us the market wants better than before...autonomous cars will win because they will be better and that is only a matter of time...all the concerns, misgivings and straw man legal issues will be overcome simply because finally the market will demand a car that is easier to drive...And the folk who protest really remind me of the people who claim you are not really driving unless you have a manual transmission... And I admit once I was like that...automatics are for sooks...but now take my little red car ( Mazda MX 5) it is a 2 litre auto and if you want to play manual just hit the paddles on the steering wheel...honestly better that a manual and sure there are times when manual is comforting..like going into a corner when auto feels a little floaty..well hit your paddle and down shift...fantastic.

And I expect all those who voice opposition will learn to love the autonomous car of the future...maybe you only use the feature one the freeway or in peek hour traffic but you will adapt it's facilities to suit..that is what humans do...if you want your car to drive in flood waters perhaps get a boat.

Alex

[The_bluester]

I reckon Alex you are probably right in that eventually autonomous cars will become the norm. It is a bit like the current trend towards utes out of their equivalent SUV (I still hate that term) 20 years ago the talk was how far your average SUV had come in terms of ride and handling, and how model "blah" now handled amazingly, for an SUV. Now some of those set the bar pretty high, and they are starting to talk about how the new Ranger for instance drives and rides very well, for a ute... A couple of years more development and the "For a ute" bit will disappear. The same sort of development must eventually happen with autonomous cars. Right now it might be "They usually make better decisions than an L plater" but give it ten years and it will be "Oh, sorry, have we arrived? I was asleep" and the sooner the mainstream makers get in on the party the better.

Just so long as I can still go and enjoy a drive on the weekend in something small and light where I get to do the work. Your Mazda would be nice, though I am one of those folk who would rather a manual.

[xelasnave]

Hi Paul, I hope you are well...the hand paddles convert you immediately..they just work so well.

But not as good as the column shift on a three speed EH holden however.
Alex

[The_bluester]

For me, a paddle shift would have to be paired with a DSG type gearbox. I have not driven a modern one but I hated the way the early ones behaved where you had to order up the gear change you wanted a second or so before you wanted it!

Just so long as I never see another car with the horrid electronics integration that my current work car has where among other things it constantly pops up messages on it's display which obscure the data you actually want, the one that particularly annoys me is "Shift denied" when you ask for a shift and it does not want to give it to you, next is "Grade braking active" when it decides to downshift, and the message stays there until it stops doing it or you manually dismiss it, until next time!

[ReidG]

Well, there is one gear to match the electric motor to the drive but that is all.
A Tesla S high performance model can get to 200 miles per hour with that arrangement so what would a gear box do?
Gearboxes in petrol and diesel vehicles are used to match the performance of the motor to the required road speed.
Electric motors are close to ideal for traction use supplying maximum torque from zero speed to maximum.

Tale a test drive and enjoy the experience.

:)

[The_bluester]

Actually not quite the case that electric motors don't require a gearbox. They are at their best when stalled (Maximum torque at 0 RPM) but after a certain speed, efficiency falls off. If that is actually going to matter in a real world EV when they get more mainstream and start getting away from the (Largely Tesla inspired) sub 4 second 0 to 100KMH times is another question. If you could gear a real world family hauler EV (Say a size equivalent to a Sorento/Kluger/Pathfinder sized SUV, as the current replacement for a Falcon wagon 20 years ago) so that when pressed it can do say, 6 seconds 0 to 100KMH, and still be in a good RPM range at 110KMH, then maybe they don't need a gearbox, but there has been talk around for ages about two speed gearsets for EVs to give both the current EV party trick of headrest smashing acceleration from a standstill plus efficient operation at higher cruising speeds that you might find in Germany for instance.

I might be anti "Autonomous" or semi autonomous cars as they currently exist, but I am not anti EV. Give the batteries another generation or two of development and some catch up of charging infrastructure and they are going to become pretty compelling for most sensible uses. Aside from current price they probably are compelling right now for most commuter use. If I did not regularly need long range and towing capacity (If I was just commuting for work with my current 140KM round trip) they would be pretty attractive to me even now and would certainly be so for my wifes 40KM round trip.

[rat156]

Hi Paul,
Skip the DSG, they also have the gear change lag. The best transmission available now has been around for years, the 8 speed ZF (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23367341/automatic-transmission-best-zf-eight-speed/). I have one in my F-Type Jag and it's just like a manual tranny, engine braking and all, it is simply brilliant. It is fitted to many high performance vehicles.

Interestingly it is more efficient than the manual transmission fitted to the F-Type. I bought the car in The Netherlands, where you are taxed on the CO2 emmissions of the vehicle, the tax was less on the Auto version than the manual.

[ReidG]

At the moment the only production electric car which has more than a single speed seems to be Porsche.

All the others seem to work well with just a single gear. Manufacturers are probably quite keen to avoid an expensive gearbox.
No one seems to find the performance unsatisfactory. I have driven a BYD which is certainly not a Tesla in the acceleration, or price, department but it has no problems keeping up at the lights. The owner owed a Porsche and is not granny on the way to the shops.



Despite promises of a stunning breakthrough in batteries for more than 20 years what has happened is gradual improvement, more normal in engineering really.

What we have now is workable which is why almost? all major manufacturers are going electric. Of course regulations in most countries make that essential. Even Toyota is getting on board.


As I have commented before autonomous vehicles remain a dream pending a major breakthrough. The electric vehicles being sold now are adequate for most and perform well. The ones with less range would require more stops for long trips but it is not absurd or even brave to contemplate say BNE to SYD in a BYD.

[Malewithatail]

Modern large scale farming couldn't exist without self driving tractors, indeed, the operator has so much to do that he/she doesn't have the time to drive ! This is especially so when pulling a 48 row planter that digs the furrow, plants the seed, inoculates it and then covers it up in one pass.



And this could lead onto a comment re electric vehicles, especially tractors.


A modern broad-acre machine is rated at around 500/1000 hp, some even have 2 engines. Assume 400 kw, then the biggest Tesla battery pak is around 150 kwh, so would last 150/450 hours, or about 20 minutes, then u need another and another etc, for 23 hours per day during planting/harvest. Anyone see a problem with calling for electric everything ?

[xelasnave]

All that is needed is a central battery bank and a long lead so no problem ..this is not a new idea ..for example I think that is the way they power the machines that tow huge ships thru the Panama Canal...the only problem is folk not thinking outside the box and remain stuck in a narrow minded attitude that things can't be done...I have heard you say that you believe all things are possible so why not all electric farm machinery..or is this one thing that is just not possible? The central battery bank can be charged by solar panels and wind generators and do away with the need to do things the old way.

Plus why not have an army of smaller machines rather than one single big unit...say 20 self drive machines each following a plotted course...as one runs out of power it returns to the central charging station for a recharge...multiple small investments not one huge one..down time for repair will never be a problem as you send the units needing repair or maintenance back to a central place that can now afford to employ experts...and the rest continue doing the job...

The fact is everything must change and we need to stop wasting fossil fuels for energy and save them to make all the important products that come from coal and oil...even though there seems like there is plenty of oil and coal it is finite and when world population trebles or more as it must do we are going to need much more fertilizer and nail polish remover...we need to prepare for a world of many fold more people...say 20 billion or more.
As international law becomes more recognised there will be less wars and conflict, that plus the better management of killer pandemics like covid 19 and our new ability to produce effective vaccines much faster, will all help to ensure population grows to the sort of level that we can work on colonizing other planets...at no point in history has the future of humanity been so wonderful and clearly things are just getting better and better....poverty and crime is dropping and everyone is far better off than ever before in history.

Clearly also the huge harvesters and seeders must be shelved as it is really a thing of the past and we need to move forward and find better ways to do such a simple job... why not go back to a man walking along and throwing seed out and trusting the universe to provide a good crop.
Farmers just want tractors so they can waste fuel engaging in the mindless pursuit of tractor pulling...now that their jobs are so easy they get bored and follow such mindless pursuits.
Alex

[glend]

Many of these fancy tractors are pretty much autonomous already. I recall watching a Utube video of a young lady in the US midwest, describing how her tractor knows the size of the field, GPS way points, turn locations, row alignment, etc. And it was air conditioned and had an InterNet connection. Her task was pretty much just listening to music and waiting for something to go wrong.

[Malewithatail]

Whilst a lot are autonomous, many still are not, but for most reasonably modern gear, upgrade kits are available. yes, they rely heavily on GPS to work out where they are, and the early ones didn't have forward or rear radar, so would run over someone if they were not awake.


Most people have no idea just what it takes to grow food, and with the drive on for meatless products, the situation can only get harder. They think that they can just throw some seed out, flick dirt over it with their boot, and a few days later up comes food. Are they in for a shock WTSHTF !



From personal experience, John Deere charges $500/hr for a telephone chat re any issues, then $1,000/hr on site. Large scale food growing isn't cheap, but in a world of 7 billion, someone has to do it !


Wish it was that easy, feet up, listening to music, but dragging a planter which is 30 meters wide behind the tractor takes a lot of concentration, just looking at all those seed drills and plough plates.


The voltage drop over a long enough cable would be really bad, even if done at 3,300 volts or more, not to mention the extra drag on the machinery pulling 10 km cable behind, and the tangling potential. The drive is for automation on these large scale farms, so lot of individual small machines, with their associated maintenance wouldn't be cost effective.


The tow locomotives on the Panama Canal only operate in one dimension, in a basically straight line, and most now use a series of bus-bars to carry the power, not cables.


The one application for an electric tractor could be the small scale farm, in the 40 hp range, say an orchadist. 25 kw is doable, especially as its not needed continuously usually.


Meanwhile, a gasifier allows me to run a generator from wood, which is a 100% renewable resource, so I'm OK mate.

[xelasnave]

How do you know multiple smaller units would not be cost effective..your statement is off the top of your head without reference to smaller units as they dont exist in this context so your are merely expressing an unsupported opinion.

Same as drag you don't know as there is nothing to look at to determine if drag could not be overcome but if that is an issue then just put in over head power lines like trams...cheap and efficient.

Given the extraordinary fees for fixing the current machinery the current approach seems un necessarily expensive...

It is easy to grow food and will become easier when we move past the current inefficient internal combustion engines and go fully electric...I must look up the numbers but I suspect an electric motor is much more efficient than an internal combustion engine.

AND on that note why a gasifer? Just go electric...solar panels..wind generator ..batteries..and if you want a generator go diesel with canola oil ...Diesel invented his engine so as to run on canola oil.

Anyways new modern farm machinery does not need the attention that the machine you talk about requires...the owner just needs to update it maybe consider something electric and leave the high call fees behind...electric is the way forward.
Alex

[Malewithatail]

Most people have no idea of the complexity of modern farm machinery. Just the code for the engine/transmission computer is over 100,000 lines long. Basically unfix-able. Something goes wrong, software update needed.


Add in the auto steering mode, auto braking and navigation and its truly daunting. Even the steering motor has a microprocessor built into it, as I found out when repairing a issue last month. Indeed, each wheel has its own microprocessor and sensors to tell pressure and travel etc.


In relation to multiple smaller units, it hasn't been done, why ? Maybe the labor costs, and in agriculture, bigger is better, more reach, more production for the same inputs.


The sun doesn't always shine, nor does the wind always blow, hence a backup energy source will be needed.


Poles and wires in a paddock, imagine trying to steer a 30 or 40 meter wide boom around power poles spaced at 30 meter intervals. Insane idea, brought on by looking through the wavering end of a beer bottle to often.

[xelasnave]

0

What a terrible response to my arguement with a terrible and untruthful character assination.

Obviously I am presenting so many good points you must resort to punching below the belt...well it wont work...Let me ask you this...how old is the machine you are talking about?
it new or second hand? Is it anything like the unit Glen is talking about?

Placing poles in a field something that is not possible you say on the one hand but you also say anything is possible. What is it to be? I can list probably a thousand engineering feats must harder than putting in a few posts and suggest your negativity is just that you dont want change and cant see a future beyond the internal combustion engine.

You should appologise for suggesting that I am a victim of the demon drink..shame on you.

Alex

[Malewithatail]

If you are so sure of yourself, fork out the cash, buy a few dozen small electric tractors, a few hundred battery's and chargers and prove yourself right, until then I'm sticking with what works, may not be the most efficient way to do things, but proven to work under most conditions.

[xelasnave]

It is not a case of proving me right ...everyone knows I am right...and do you think I am so shallow I would buy all that stuff just to prove I am right? No way. And very few would disagree that the electric motor is more efficient than any internal combustion engine and it is that efficiency difference that finally will see internal combustion shelved...just like steam power...great at the time but I am thinking of the bright future ahead of us with say 20 billion humans all working to leave the planet that has been ruined by fossil fuels...

Perhaps the machine you are working with is now relatively old ..things get old real quick because tech changes so fast.... and efficiency in any business is what reflects profitability...less efficient means less profit...

In any event I think the new machines are delivering the dream that Glen referred to...the world is getting better by the day so the machines we will see as each year passes will be better and better as everything is...have a great weekend and hope to see you next week...

Alex

[Malewithatail]

Pity we haven't got that much time left......

[xelasnave]

Maybe for you and me as we are humans of advanced years we don't have that much time certainly however there is plenty of time for the young bright folk coming thru ...I have seen so much change ( for the better) in my 76 years I cant imagine how great it will be in another 76 years with all the improvements in health, economics and education... we are ready to welcome in Utopia ...maybe in my lifetime.

Alex

[glend]

As an old dodger standing at the counter at the RTA waiting to take my drivers eye test, I did consider the merits of an autonomous driver vehicle, should I be banned (which is really a matter of time now).
Perhaps we need a new probationary plate for autonomous driven vehicles.

[Malewithatail]

We are the last generation.

[xelasnave]

Not me I have children and grand children and as such can not be called the last generation...so you are at least two generations out for a start even before we ask "why would you say such a thing?"....which I won't:D..don't let things get you down everything is fine in fact the world is a better place now than ever before in history and you only have to look at statistics on crime, poverty, life expectancy, starvation, etc...really go back two hundred years and tell me things were better...cheer up and get ready for the coming utopia...self driving cars and more good food than we can eat, plus personal assistant robots to shine your shoes and take out the garbage..I can't wait.


Like Glen I am at that stage where in the near future an autonomous vehicle will be needed...And thank goodness I live in a wonderful time in history where such magic will be common place....

Alex