Max wins F1 Championship

[Andy01]

Well that was entertaining! :lol:
Unexpected but maybe F1 is learning from Nascar.

Nascar always has Green/White/Checkered flag finishes following a pace car incident, regardless of the number of laps completed - it's a sure way to guarantee a happy crowd and a proper race finish. :thumbsup:

Too bad MB got caught with their pants down playing it safe, and well done Max & RB for gambling on tyre strategy that paid off.
So just for a change, the best driver, not just the guy with the fastest car, won the championship.

Best quote of the day from Race Director Michael Masi - "it's a motor RACE, Toto". :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[ausastronomer]

There's no denying that Max deserved the win, but many would question whether he's the best driver and didn't have a faster car this season than Hamilton had. Without question between Hamilton and Max, they are the 2 best drivers.

There's a really good reason why the best driver (s) always end up in the fastest cars :)

What Max doesn't have that Hamilton has, is maturity, humility and grace, which was clearly evidenced when he carried on like a 5yr old after the 2nd last race of the season.

Cheers
John B

[JA]

Yes Andy I did see that and, It's already been memed...
284499
Best
JA

[gary]

On Saturday before qualifying, an extended family member asked me
why I enjoyed Formula 1.

I answered that, "Because it mimics real life".

"How is that?", they asked.

I responded, "Because it is rarely fair and the rules keep changing".

So in that regard race director Micheal Masi making a series of
unprecedented calls just prior to the final lap did not disappoint. :)

The mechanism of the end of the Safety Car period was like no other
we had ever seen. Initially, lapped cars were instructed that they
would stay in place. Then in the penultimate lap, the decision is
reversed but with a brand new twist made up on the spot that
we have never seen before. Just the five cars between HAM and VER
would get out of the way but the others remain in place.

But it got even better. For years there have been calls to speed up the
end of the Safety Car period whilst we tediously waited for lapped cars to unlap
themselves and join the back of the pack. So at this championship
deciding race, the race director decides they will do that for the first time.

It turns out the rules really do mimic real life because they are full
of contradictions.

Article 48.12 states that "Unless the clerk of the course considers the
presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has
passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the
following lap".

My highlight. "At the end of the following lap". No, we have the Safety
Car this time come in immediately.

On appeal, the FIA's "out" turned out to be rule 15.3, which says :-


At its heart F1 is a technical sport. The decision of how to design the
car's aero package and engine and the minutiae of strategy and so on
are computed, estimated and guessed as best they can.
The events of the race act as the joker in the pack. Do you cover
an undercut, do you pit for fresh tyres, do you pit under a virtual or
real safety car and so on.

It seemed to me that it wasn't so much Mercedes making a bad call on
whether to pit for new tyres when the Safety Car came in, it was
they appeared to estimate how long it would take to clear the wreckage
on average plus the time it would take for overlapped cars to join the back
of the pack would exceed the number of laps remaining.
In other words, the race would end behind the Safety Car.
This technical estimate was based on years of prior experience based on how the
rules and procedures had been followed in the past.

But what they didn't take into account was my original comment about how
in F1 the rules are rarely fair and they keep on changing.

It is understandable that the race director is in charge of safety.
But at some point he decided to put on a racing spectacle by contriving
how the safety car period would end.

The weakest point of soccer is the penalty shootout. It only happens
when there is a draw.

But in this instance the director took upon himself to have a penalty shootout
when there was no draw and one player has availed himself of a pair
of brand new boots.

Even if the slowest car in the pack was given a set of fresh softs and
allowed to have a sprint against the Mercedes with a set of now really worn
hards, the underdog would have more than likely won.
So it was fait accompli.

If Latifi had crashed, say, on the final lap, it would have been a completely
different outcome.

It certainly will be controversial for many years to come. :)

In any case, the most dramatic, melodramatic and exciting season
for years is over.

There's that wonderful 1965 movie The Great Race, where the handsome
hero played by Tony Curtis, whilst kissing Natalie Wood in front of the
finish line at the Eiffel Tower, allows the villain played by Jack
Lemmon to win the race.

The Jack Lemmon character at first is jubilant because he has won, but
then calls for a re-race when he realises his final victory was hollow.

It has been an incredible and well deserved season for Max, but if it
were me, not how I would have liked to have finally won it. :)

BBC commentary on the events by Andrew Besnon here :-
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/59631665

[Wussell]

I don't think anyone saw that coming.... I was expecting a Senna Prost incident at the first corner.
What a race, what a finish
The safety car certainly added a twist, and in my opinion that is the way it should be done.
Well done Max :)

[ausastronomer]

That might have been the quote of the day but you can take it to the bank that next season Michael Masi will be in the grand stand selling hot dogs and not Race Director. While I think Max was consistently the fastest driver all year, in a fast car, that was without question one of the most appalling decisions I have ever witnessed in professional sport. Not only was Michael Masi flippant about his decision, his decision was clearly wrong and outside his jurisdiction as race director. He was also flippant to the wrong people. ie. The ones that pump the 10's of millions into the sport each year. I don't want to be buying shares in Michael Masi.

Cheers
John B

[Andy01]

Actually, finishing under the safety car is more akin to a penalty shootout imo :)



:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:



Except Bottas is proof that is not the case, at least this year! :lol:



No, it's Formula One RACING, and entertainment for billions on TV, not "boring, follow me under the safety car Grand Prix" (we had one of those in Belgium this year already)... it was probably scripted by Netflix, Masi may be sacrificed yes to appease MB, but then will likely get a long term gig with Netflix and I can't wait for the next season of "Drive to Survive!" :lol:

[ausastronomer]

If you want to make it a spectacle for billions and not have any rules that's fine, but if you are going to impose rules then they should be followed, not one person breaking the rules in the interests of the spectacle.

Cheers
John B

[Andy01]

I think this season has amply demonstrated that the ‘rules’ are interpreted differently each race by the stewards. But you must admit it’s been way more interesting than the snoozefest of MB outright domination since 2014. :D

Final thoughts... After an F1 session which was the best advertising for F1 in a long, long time. Mercedes has now decided to destroy it all for their own interest and drag F1 down the drain in a future courtroom. This team has have had almost a decade of good publicity and worthy champions through F1. Now Toto has decided to destroy it all by not taking part in any interviews, showing exactly how a petulant, spoilt, entitled person behaves demonstrating equally average "sporting" behaviour.

Mercedes should drop their case, they've had an awesome run and deserve to be considered quite possibly the best team of all time, albeit at the cost of "entertainment" for the viewers :)

[SimmoW]

Yes the best season and finish for many years! Both drivers were that close, literally.

No one seems to be talking about that first gimme to Hamilton for his detour through the chicane. I reckon that deserved a bigger penalty. So the decisions evened out.

Bloody Merc drivers 😂

And yeah, the farce of finishing any race with a procession of say, 10 laps led by a sluggish pace car, that is, well, a farce.

Maybe next year, a tied championship could be decided by a race in perfectly equal cars prepared by the lowest scoring team. In the wet.

[glend]

It was an engineered win, to boost ratings and supply content for the Netflix series " Drive to Survive". Not to mention placating the millions of Max fans in the Netherlands, who have been claiming F1 was a British series and stacked against him. Netflix pays the F1 owner a significant amount of money, beyond the usual television rights deals. F1 is a big business, and the owners expect a good return on their investment.
Lewis Hamilton has nothing left to prove in this area, and honestly I would completely understand if he just decided to walk away from F1. He is extremely wealthy now, and at 36 he has indicated more often recently that there are other things he would like to do in life. Why put up with contrived results?

There are, despite what some here may say, rules that have applied for many years, related to safety car procedures. As many of the drivers have observed, the rules were ignored to create an opportunity for Max. If the rules had been followed Lewis would have likely won. If Lewis was made aware of the intention to ignore safety car procedures, in this race, he most likely would have pitted to change to soft tyres. As I said, it was contrived.

[JA]

It's was a motor race, one team won, the other didn't, with representatives from the world governing body present, presiding and adjudicating.

Throughout the season and even the last race, decisions which likely could have impacted the final outcome went both ways.

It is what it is. I don't own a Red-Bull, but I'm OK with it :D

Best
JA

[raymo]

I stopped caring about F1 more than 30yrs ago, so many races are boring processions. Monaco in particular is a joke, overtaking possibilities being
almost non existent.
raymo

[ausastronomer]

This is the exact reason I think it was all wrong. Making it a spectacle is one thing, but one person decided not to follow the rules, unannounced, to make it a spectacle just bared Hamilton's arse to the wind, handed the Championship to Max and gave Hamilton no chance.

One thing is absolutely for certain ! Had the positions been reversed Max would have carried on like a 5yr old schoolboy, just like he did after the previous race. Hamilton on the other hand was gracious and left the arguing, protesting and complaining to the team, which is the way it should be handled.

Cheers,
John B

[The_bluester]

I have not had a chance to watch the full race, but recent history left me pretty comfortable with the first lap business. The precedent was starting to look pretty sound that dive bombing the car in front and pushing them off the track on corner exit was a valid way to overtake. The type of thing that in club level motorsport would involve an "Animated" discussion later at the back of the pits. At a non Tilkedrome type track with ten thousand acres of high grip runoff the "Overtaken" car would likely end up beached in kitty litter and out of the race, or in a wall. It could still have cost him the championship but I would honestly have preferred to see Hamilton keep to the track limits and if Max ripped both their wheels off, so be it.

My issue with the outcome was that the race director effectively made himself the race (And title) decider. Stick a safety car out there and Redbull were always going to roll the dice with sticking new tyres on. If the race ended under the safety car, nothing lost. If the lapped cars were sent through (Or just the ones between the leaders as was boiled up for this race) then they would be right behind the leader on nice fresh softs while the leader is on geriatric tyres that might be a couple of seconds a lap slower. Mercedes was ALWAYS going to sit it out instead of diving in for tyres, dive in and all Redbull had to do was cruise past into first place on track and a good chance of a win, certainly a much better chance than they had from behind the Merc without a tyre change, assuming the race ended under a green flag. If it ended up under the safety car as would probably have been expected then they would walk around for the win.

There was no downside to the Safety car for Redbull, and nothing but downside risk for Mercedes, but the "Anything for a green flag last lap" approach took a potential advantage for Redbull and turned it in to a real one.

It is a real pity that the season will probably always be remembered for this and not the competition. It is close to unarguable that they are the best two current drivers, and they are in the best two current cars and I hate to see the title decide by the stewards or the courts.

[Hans Tucker]

That is 'Sir Lewis Hamilton' now.

Max gets the win ... Sir Lewis Hamilton gets a Knighthood ... everyone win so no more complaining.

[fornax]

pretty sure that the race director was only trying to achieve what all the teams had agreed to ... that the race finish under green conditions and not yellow. He did just enough to ensure that - no more, no less

[astroron]

The FIA and Liberty media etc were determined that Max would win the championship, whether by fair means or foul.
That they have a rule that over rules all other safety car rules
and in doing so makes the race Director, a Race Dictator, makes all the other rules superfluous.
That Red Bull were slagging off Masi in previous races now think he is the
nicest man in F1.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[Rainmaker]

Looking back on several incidents throughout the season I think Lewis benefited from just as many decisions as Max.

I for one prefer to see a final lap like it was rather than cars cruising around under Safety Car conditions.

When you listen to the audio of Toto telling Masi not to deploy the safety car for one incident and begging Masi to let them race and then later in the same race whinging because Masi brought the safety car in to let them indeed race….
No wonder Ross Brawn has decided to prevent the team principals having direct comms to the race director for 2022…

[ChrisD]

I don't think Merc/Toto are "bad sports". They are taking the same steps any other team would take in the same situation. If the positions were reversed, i.e. Max had lead from the start and was passed on the last lap by Lewis who boxed for softs under the safety car and Masi ignored the safety car restart rules, then RB/Christian would be protesting.

Michael Masi has 2 options within the rules, to leave lapped cars in place and bring in the safety car on that lap or let them unlap and bring in the safety car on the next lap. Masi opted to ignore the rules and allow only the lapped cars between Ver and Ham. Now they first had safety cars in formula 1 in 1973. I started watching F1 in 1974 and I've never seen this type of restart procedure used in any other race.

If the rules were followed, Merc knew that if the lapped cars were allowed to pass then the safety car couldn't come in until the lap after the last lapped car passed the safety car, so the race would end under the safety car and Lewis would win the championship. If they left the lapped cars in place, they might get a racing lap but there would be 5 cars between Ver and Ham so even with old tyres Lewis would likely win. If Merc boxed Lewis he would have rejoined after Max and so if the race ended under the safety car, Max would have track position and win. The only strategy for Merc is to keep Lewis out on the old tyres.

Formula 1 has rules for safety and to provide a predictable environment for drivers and teams. Teams use the rules to make strategic decisions during the race.

Then Masi let half the lapped cars through and brings in the safety car 1 lap early, outside the established and agreed rules.

He actually broke his own rules. When Masi was criticised for not allowing racing to resume quickly in the Eifel GP in October 2020, he defended himself and said: “There's a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars past.”

Michael Masi can't have it both ways.

Not only was Lewis' race compromised, Sainz was sitting in 3rd behind Verstappen. Masi left Stroll and Ricciardo (lapped cars) between Sainz and Verstappen. So Sainz had no chance to improve his position. He might also have been able to pass Hamilton and take 2nd in the race.

I don't think Masi will be Race Director in 2022.

Chris

[ngcles]

Hi All,

Out of all this one thing is absolutely certain:

Nicholas Latifi will not receive a Christmas card from Lewis Hamilton this year!

I wasn't personally much invested in either driver but I think on the day, Lewis was dudded.

That said, it has been a year filled with controversy and conspicuously poor sportsmanship on the part of both Lewis Hamilton & Max Verstappen. Both are win at all costs types.

So it took seven years for the trailing pack to finally be able to match it with Mercedes at the last gasp at the very end of the season with the current regulations. Next year, the slate is wiped clean and they're all starting from scratch in terms of car development. I wonder how long it will take before somebody comes up with a car that can again compete with a Mercedes? Three? Five? Seven years??

Best,

L.

[astroron]

The new head of the FIA is Mohammed ben Sulayem.
The FIA is Motor sports governing body.
He has just announced that Lewis Hamilton and Toto Wolff
May be punished for not attending the
presentation ceremony.
That would be a great start to his presidency, not.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/59705074
Cheers:thumbsup:

[Rainmaker]

Pretty poor effort by LH and his faithful companion Toto in boycotting the presentation gala……. Maybe they should take up sulky racing……

[ChrisD]

[Mohammed Ben Sulayem] Asked to clarify whether he was saying Hamilton would be penalised for not attending the gala, he said: "Forgiveness is always there. But rules are rules." :rofl:

[astroron]

Yes Chris, I thought that was rather ironic.
Rules seem to apply to one side of the fence
so to speak.
F1 needs Mercedes more than Mercedes.
I would advise them to travel carefully.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[Rainmaker]

If Mercedes had pitted Lewis for some fresh soft rubber and then Max had stayed out for track position, do you guys suppose that they (TW & LH) would have then said Max deserves the win rather than using Lewis's fresh rubber to pass Max......

Mercedes and Lewis gambled on the safety car staying out to nullify any further racing, a gamble that didn't go their way. Having met both Lewis and Max I have no particular issue against either but I was pleased to see the race not end under safety car......

[astroron]

From what at least 90% of the pundits and other commentators said
and I agree also.
Lewis and Mercedes where shafted.
It was a carefully managed scenario by the FAI, Liberty media the owners
that there wouldn't be a race finish under a safety car.
The whole fiasco just fell into place with Latifi's convenient crash.
AKA Piquet's 2008 Singapore GP crash that allowed Alonso to win the race.
Put it this way,if I was shafted like Lewis and Mercedes,I wouldn't go to the presentation either.
Cheers:thumbsup:

BTW if Lewis had pitted he would have come well behind Max,and judging by the actions
of Masi in the eventual finish,god knows what Masi would have done.
One thing is for sure,they would have not allowed Lewis to finish before Max.

[ausastronomer]

That's not correct Matt. Mercedes had nothing to gain and everything to lose with whatever decision they made and whatever scenario unfolded, unless the prevailing rules were followed, which of course they weren't. As I said in an earlier post "Michael Masi will be in the stands selling hot dogs next year".

Without question this was one of the most apalling decisions I have seen made in over 50 years of watching professional and amateur sport. Almost as bad as the decision in the first Jeff Fenech V Azumah Nelson fight. That's the only time I have ever seen someone get the "living sh_t" punched out of themselves for 10 and arguably 11 of 12 rounds and end up with a draw.

Cheers
John B

[JA]

Apparently (and people can search for a reference) the F1 teams agreed at the start of the season that it was desirable to finish races under green flag (racing) conditions. This presumably is to avoid the appalling look of a precession behind the safety car all the way to the chequered flag. Mercedes didn't factor that in to their team's strategy and left Hamilton out there to maintain track position some 5 laps before the end of the race, whilst RedBull pitted Verstappen for tyres as the Latifi crash was cleaned up. In fact as I recall the radio discussions during those closing stages, Hamilton I seem to recall asked his team if he could/should pit for tyres and they advised against it, stating that he should maintain track position. I'll see if I can find that conversation/video snippet, if indeed my memory serves me correctly (???).

I don't feel anyone was robbed or there was some sort of dark conspiracy, it's just the way it is. The race is about many things, but 3 in particular: The Machine, The Driver and The Strategy. One team had all 3.

Having said that I feel that in hindsight it may have been preferable to have red flagged the race at lap 53 and then restarted for a final 4-5 laps.

Best
JA

[ChrisD]

I don't think it was a conspiracy, in-fact, has anyone on this thread suggested that it was?

You're right, there was an expressed preference by the teams to complete the race under green flag conditions, but that doesn't override the rules. In AFL or NRL no-one is happy with a draw at full time, but you wouldn't like the ref. ignoring the rules of the game so you get a winner.

As for red flagging the race, the rules state:
If Competitors or officials are placed in immediate physical danger by cars running on the track,
and the clerk of the course deems circumstances are such that the track cannot be negotiated
safely, even behind the safety car, the race will be suspended.

Clearly, the red flag is only to be used if it is unsafe for cars to circulate even under the safety car. You cant use the red flag just to give the fans a good finish.

Chris

[JA]

The Race Director and officials can decide if things are unsafe or not and experienced enough that they don't need it codified by rules to be sure - they can use their discretion. If there is debris on the track which can cause punctures AND nearly half the width of the track is obscured by a car sideways on the track, then that's not so ideal, as an understatement. That car has to be maneuvered or craned off the track. They are all dangerous obstacles even in an inert state, as in the terrible case of the death of Jules Bianchi may years ago on colliding with the recovery crane which was still on side of the track clearing a previous accident. Different circumstances, but it all stemmed from responding to/cleaning up after another car. My suggestion centered around safety. Despite that it would also have allowed 4-5 laps of racing, tyre change for those that needed it and I feel a less controversial result, given the fact that the drivers would have had more time and opportunities to attack and counterattack rather than just 1 lap.

Of course opinions differ.

Best
JA

[ausastronomer]

Guess who's applying for a job selling hot dogs in the grandstand for the upcoming formula 1 season ?

I guess that was to be expected when your own importance and making a spectacle of the event, is more important than "the rules", fair play and the reputation and public image of the people that invented the car!

Cheers
John B

[Andy01]

Whilst you are entirely entitled to your own opinion, might I suggest reading this excellent article which presents a more balanced perspective. :D

https://www.speedcafe.com/2022/02/18/making-sense-of-masis-formula-1-demise/

[astroron]

This the final paragraph from that article.
It is a load of poppycock.

Michael was and remains a world class race director. The challenges thrown in front of him were simply insurmountable, and it is unfortunate that it is he who paid the price in that lesson being learned.

All as Michael Masi had to do was follow
the rules that he as director was paid to
administer.
Not make up his own rules
When advised of his error by Toto Wolff
gruffly replied "it's called racing Toto".
FI and Liberty media had stipulated that
they didn't want the race to finish under
the "Safety Car" which Masi duly provided even
though it was the wrong thing to do.
His actions brought the sport of F1 racing
into disrepute.
BTW this article keeps mentioning mistakes,
they were not mistakes they were a deliberate acts
Cheers:thumbsup:

[glend]

Time to end this thread

[astroron]

Another "time to end this thread":rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Cheers:thumbsup:

[Todo43]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43HCYSXZ9GI

[JA]

^It's just SUPER ......... _ _ _ - - _ _ _ - - _ _ _

Thx Lachlan :thumbsup:

Best
JA

[Todo43]

No Worries JA. I only got into F1 last year. Been rewatching and realized how god Max is. Love that clip though.

Will always love Riccardo though.

[RB]

Did Leon show his tomato again?...

:lol:

[Hemi]

Thought Hamilton/merc were very unfortunate in the last race. But that is a cool video. Love that euroPop sound!