Barrenjoey dark sky observing park has some residents concerned

[gary]

Natassia Chrysanthos in the Sydney Morning Herald reports on the
Northern Beaches Council plan to turn Governor Phillip Park on the
Barrenjoey Headland into the country’s first urban night sky park, which
would have international accreditation and welcome families for
telescope stargazing or astronomer-led picnics throughout the year.

The council will forge ahead with its original plans based on a motion
that passed in August, with 10 votes for and five against.

But some residents and councillors have concerns.

Article here (may have a paywall depending on how many SMH articles you have read) :-
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/sydney-set-to-be-home-to-australia-s-first-urban-night-sky-park-but-locals-aren-t-all-pleased-20211005-p58xh7.html

[Sunfish]

I saw that Gary. Very interesting initiative. Palm Beachers don’t know how lucky they are. The dark area surrounded by water is a fortunate location for Sydney.

[Sunfish]

Accidentally hit the blue winking smiley. Oops. Better than the purple meanie.

[sharkbite]

Not wishing to feed the naysayers....


Apart from the reduced sky glow....

Is the site itself an ideal place?


Is Astro by the beach any good?


The last time i was at north palmy was on a bright sunny day,
albeit with the wind blowing....so the car was covered in dust
and salt when we got back....and the spray from the waves managed
to filth up my camera lens even though we were walking up to the lighthouse (nowhere near the water)



What would it be like at night with $K's worth of kit pointing skyward?


would the seeing generally be any good?



I really don't know so would be interested to hear peoples opinions...

[Sunfish]

Interesting to find out. Maybe on top of the headland. Sites surrounded by sea can be good. But then there is the lighthouse. There are other similar sites that would be good to try.

Now I have light bulb. Jeez.

[By.Jove]

Ok for a PR exercise with noobs, which is what this is.. I’ve tried observing near beaches with breaking surf, the night air is very humid, loaded with salt and the dew is bad, you figure…

[xelasnave]

It may have disadvantages but perhaps one can get around the salt etc with a clear something over the objective.....what is important is that the thing gets off the ground if nothing else to serve as an example of how wonderful it is to have such a facility such that other councils see an opportunity for their district..like I am sure Hornsby Shire could find somewhere for example..just a little South of Brooklyn maybe...
But perhaps we should get behind the idea rather than think of reasons why it wont work.
Alex

[multiweb]

I find it really annoying every time the "security issue" is brought up when talking about darkness. This is why it is going to be really difficult selling the idea of dark skies. It would be such a good thing for people mental health in trying times to look up and chill. It's something that belongs to everybody and the benefits would far outweigh all the "security concerns".

[xelasnave]

Marc you are so right about looking up to relieve stress etc. If you put things in perspective most problems are really insignificant in the greater picture and there is no better way to make one realise just how insignificant ones problems are than to gaze up and about and factor is how small one is and here for less than a blink in time.

Darkness and humans stupid paranoid obsession with more and more lights...when in the Gold Coast hospital for my back opperation every night ( various times from midnight to dawn) I would look out my window and observe no cars or people yet lights everywhere...I posted here at the time...so many could be turned off, so many were just too many... areas with eight lights where three would be more than enough..all night..the only beneficiaries are moths...the greatest problem I have with the climate change thing is that all it can focus on is cut fosil fuel ( which clearly hints at a political imperative rather than a genuine concern to save the world) and never is there any call for greater efficiency with public lighting which certainly would make a great impact on cutting omissions. Of course there was the time where they legislated against incandescent lights but clearly that was just a ploy to capitalise on the fear so someone could make a quid if one were yo be entirely cynical...like if you followed thru on that worthwhile step why not reduce public lighting to a sensible level..no excess allowed maybe..I am not even advocating turn them off but only not adopt an over kill.. why put up eight lights when three will do..AND these paranoid fools who think there are scoundrels sneeking about in the shadows wont go out after midnight anyways..

Imagine if we got sensible about lighting the omission reduction that must be or could be achieved..if you could not get 5% down just by a sensible approach to lights I would be surprised...
What we need is to link the over kill in lighting to omissions..make lighting overkill as bad as refusing to make your next car electric...when I was a kid you had one light on in the house ..can you guess which room..the one you were in...now just look around where you live..not only every room on the house but the front and back yards fully bathed in scoundrel deterring light.
Alex

[JA]

One can't always have perfect - it certainly won't be an Atacama desert with long cloudless periods and excellent 0.5 arc second seeing, but I suppose it's a site selected from within the confines of the council's control. I'm sure it would be possible to do better elsewhere around Australia, but good on them for stepping up with an idea/facility for their area for viewing and potentially imaging the night sky.

It's certainly dark enough, although it could be darker, at around SQM = 21.3 Mag./Arcsec^2 roughly Bortle 4, Sky brightness = 338 µcd/m^2. Given that a perfect dark sky site is around 171 µcd/m^2, this site is around 2 times brighter than perfect, but I would suggest still very good. Where I am in Melbourne the Sky brightness is around 3130 µcd/m^2 or about 18 times brighter than a perfect dark sky site! There's even worse than that closer to the CBD in Melbourne and Sydney and most other capitals. Take a look at the this excerpt from LightPollutionMap.Info for the area in question: Barrenjoey / Governor Phillip Park ....
281883



There's no reason, given the right conditions, why Astro observing, imaging and Landscape photography by the beach couldn't be enjoyable and fruitful. On the issue of wind, sand & waterspray, if you want to go out when there is wind and spray etc..., then cover your gear: in the case of a camera under your coat or in a bag and with a lens cap when not taking snaps. Or if imaging you'd need more extreme/larger cover, but then maybe just choose another night or more sheltered location.




It could be dreamy in the right conditions



Good question. I checked on Meteoblue for that location and it seems it's as good if not better than most, with around 1 to 1.5 arcsecond seeing and below. Even down to 1 to around 0.6/0.7, although that's a day reading in the short snippet of data I have attached below...
281884





Ok you have mine :D I love beach location landscape and astrophotography and for me, even a short trip gets me to a much darker (approx. 3 times darker) location than home. It can be much darker than inland suburbia, especially if your astro targets are situated looking out over the water, where there are unlikely to be any significant light sources except for possibly the light domes of distant towns/cities.

Best
JA

[Peter Ward]

Indeed. "Security" concerns are opinion masquerading as fact.
Police reports show crime actually goes down during a blackout.
Seems the crooks don't like to use a flashlight that would herald their presence in the darkness! Duh.

Motion sensing lights are also effective. Again heralding movement in an
area where there should be none. Burning floodlamps all night long
as wasteful. lazy and dumb.

But some adults and little children don't like the dark...Bogey men and monsters under the bed. :lol:

[gary]

"Come see the Moon!", he would call out to pedestrians in downtown
San Francisco on the corner of Jackson & Broderick. "We are looking at
the Moon".



The stated goals of an urban night sky location is to be a place close
to a metro area that acts as a model of dark sky protection so that
communities, elected officials and business leaders come to
identify the conditions of natural darkness as a valuable asset.
They also provide a place for the public to be able to come to enjoy the
night sky.

In many ways, the concerns of residents in this instance is the very
thing that such settings are attempting to put at rest.

There is the demographic of astronomy enthusiasts that includes people
who own telescopes, belong to clubs, read forums such as IceInSpace
and who go to star parties.

But there is a demographic several orders of magnitude larger than that
who are curious about the natural world and of the night sky but who
don't own a telescope, are unlikely ever to own telescope or to join a club
or read an astronomy forum.

I have yet to meet someone who, when the subject arises, is not
fascinated by the stars and the universe. I've sat next to people on planes
who strike up a conversation and will then say, "I love this stuff" or "I love
watching programs on the universe on the Discovery Channel" or "I once
got to go on a organised camping trip ... " or "I once went on a cruise ..."
"... and the view of the stars and the Milky Way was unbelievable."
And now and then, someone would say, "My uncle is an amateur
astronomer".

Sydney is a city of some 5 million inhabitants and in recent years
increasing urban density has seen a dramatic rise in the number of
apartment buildings, greater demand on open public space and increased
levels of light pollution.

In the City of Sydney, approximately 50% of Australians were born
overseas and in Greater Sydney, about 40%. Some of these people
who now have made Sydney their home have come from places where
the opportunity to glimpse the heavens was even more difficult.

Shortly before the pandemic a friend asked if I could help by bringing
a telescope to a public outreach event at the 20 sq km Glenworth
Valley Horse Riding property just off the northern M1 freeway out
of Sydney. The event was a nightscape photography workshop.

Before I arrived, I anticipated perhaps a couple of dozen people.
Over 400 turned up.

The typical demographic were a young couple, living in urban Sydney,
typically in an apartment. Owned a DLSR and a tripod. And they all
thrilled at being outside at night in a place where they could see some stars
and have the opportunity to try their hand at capturing some of that
beauty with their camera. This was an environment in which they felt safe,
where they could enjoy themselves, where they could laugh with friends,
where they could engage in a physical activity and they could learn
a skill in the process. What is aptly referred to as the pursuit of happiness.

Likewise I experienced similar enthusiasm at public outreach
events at the Western Sydney Parklands before the pandemic.
Young families, young children, picnic blankets, look up at the stars,
thrill at a glimpse of the Moon or planet through a scope.
Talks on aboriginal astronomy. Shown the Milky Way. Shown the emu.

At the public outreach events held at Parramatta Park some years
earlier, the number of visitors were in the thousands. Long queues
formed to get a glimpse through the large Dobsonians we had brought
to the event.

Again, families picniced under the stars, children did cartwheels on the
grass and if you didn't hear a "Wow!" when someone looked through
the eyepiece, you knew the target had drifted out of the field of view.
You would ask them if they wouldn't mind stepping aside, re-center the
target, re-invite them back to the eyepiece and right on cue there it
would be, "Wow!" and they step aside with a smile, still staring into
space whilst they attempted to keep that once-in-a-lifetime image
imprinted in their heads.

After a glimpse of Saturn, an elderly woman had tears in her eyes.
"You know", she said, "Since I was a little girl, I've always wanted to
see that. Oh thank you, thank you."

A young boy said to me after looking, "Mister, that is not real. You have
a picture stuck in the front". I lowered the scope so he could see his
own reflection in the primary and like a magician, assured him there was
no trick. I re-centered Saturn and he took another look. "Wow!", he said.
He had a beaming smile. I thought and hoped that perhaps one day,
many years from now, he would still remember.

After the crowds disperse and young families take their children back home
to bed, there is usually a small gathering of those who want to know
more. They impress you with their own knowledge and you do your
best to answer their questions to try and fill in the gaps.
After all, "Science" is just the Latin word for "knowledge" and its
democratisation is key. Apart from scratching their own itch to "know" it
helps empower them to educate their own children, their nieces, their
nephews, their grandchildren. It helps inform and shape their opinions
on the environment and on outdoor lighting.

A couple of 17 year old, year 11 public school girls from Sydney's
west stand by. One is inquiring about a career in the sciences.
Her goal is to do as well as possible in the HSC with the hope to get
to Sydney University. She asks a lot of questions including about the
telescope. One day, she says, she now plans to save up and buy one.
Her friend hopes to do well enough to do veterinary science.
Born here, both of their parents were born overseas.
They confess that tonight was their opportunity to bring out a little
of their inner geek. You wish them well. And you hope you may have
made a small difference.

This is the power of an urban night sky park. :)

[multiweb]

Nicely summed up Gary.



:lol: ... and astronomers :eyepop:

[Startrek]

If it’s classified as bortle 4 , I suspect imaging anywhere from southwest to south east would not escape some of greater Sydney’s monster sky glow

Still nice to see some parts of Sydney are still quite dark ( definitely where I live , I’m under that monster sky glow )

It’s quite alarming driving at night from the South Coast to Sydney when you hit the top of Alfords Point on the A6 and get a panoramic view of Sydney’s Sky Glow. You say to yourself how in the hell can anyone image under all that, then reality kicks in , well we do , so don’t worry about it. But seriously it is getting worse year by year

[Sunfish]

Yes. Any kind of dark site is a good step as is carefully designed lighting. Not everyone considers themselves an astronomer .

There is nothing quite like a view of a planet with its moons with ones own eyes through an eyepiece , sharp, great dynamic range and 3dimensional.