Shocking Massacre in States

[duncan]

Hi all,
Been listening to the news this morning. 33 dead at a college over there.
So sad. Wish people would stop and think before acting.:(

[LX200]

Terminator 4 live
grim & gruesome murder rampage

[nightsky]

G'Day,
Thats what happens when you keep guns in the house,there gun crazy over there,it's a bit of a change from killing the Indians and the blacks as they cant do that anymore (well legally anyway) so they go crazy in the schools instead.

[casstony]

The USA is a more harsh and uncaring place than Australia too - you either succeed or you crash and burn. Add guns into the mix and I'm surprised the homocide rate isn't even higher.

[h0ughy]

this is sad news indeed. No one deserves this

[Mr. Subatomic]

And yet George Bush still does not want to further enforce gun restrictions...

If anyone has seen Michael Moore's 'Bowling for Columbine', there's a lot more significance to an event like this.

[Ric]

I think they need to have a rethink about this "right to bear arms" garbage.

absolute stupidity

[nightsky]

G'Day,
Yes I agree, I'd recommend everyone to watch that,especially the yanks unfortunately there to busy watching soapes ;)
Cheers
Arthur
P.S.Not all of them of course,there are still some decent people living there

[nightsky]

G'Day,
Sad to say,but thanks to LITTLE Johnny Howard we're heading along the same road,the gap between the rich and poor in this country is getting wider by the year,It's obscene the salary that some people get,when is enough, enough and yet the banks etc want to make more profit to beat last years.I'd better stop otherwise I'll be getting my orange box out to stand on:)
Cheers
Arthur

[GrahamL]

Its a sad indictment of politics today that massacres as these will continue as long as the fear of lost votes outways the tears of the many who suffer from these unthinkable acts .:mad2:

I don't have a problem with people owning firearms , but the almost anything
goes atmosphere of ownership and what you can buy
http://www.impactguns.com/store/machineguns.html
needs to be dealt with .

[casstony]

The gun ownership question in the USA is more complex than it is here. Apart from fear of armed intruders breaking into a persons home, there seems to be a fear of the government acting against its own people. America has a much more violent history than Australia and any attempt to curtail gun ownership will have to be in small increments.

I must say it's very comforting to see the left wing sentiment expressed in this thread so far.

[janoskiss]

Might have to clip some wings if posts get overly political... :confuse3:

--- IIS Terms of Service (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=7856)

[ving]

so sad that so many innocent normal ppl need to die.
here is the problem...

[Ingo]

Yes it's a very sad and disturbing thing. Especially since I'm still in school knowing that it could indeed happen any day, is pretty frightening.

Most likely the guns used were bought by "gangsters" who bought them illegally off some underground market.

I wish libertarians went into power, it would take the market away from the gangsters and people selling drugs, weapons and allow full control by the government. Anything you do is legal, as long as it doesn't put anybody else in harm.

[Sausageman]

As long as they continue the "right to bear arms" under the constitution, things like this will go on.
Did you see Charlton Heston saying at a meeting of the NRA, "They can take my gun from my cold dead fingers"?
With attitudes like that, it will never end.

I have been a shooter in the past, but never thought about guns for anyone ever. Some people shouldn't drive cars because of road rage, but they can have a gun!
Crazy.

Mike.

[astro_nutt]

It saddens me to hear of such horror happening to our youth..no-one deserves this..the innocent ones in the final moment of their lives in total fear without escape..wittnesses to their deaths will forever hear their screams...those in power will argue the rights and wrongs and the why's and who's...and it doesn't matter if it's a gun..or a knife..explosives..or even a car...they can all be used to kill...and we humans are very good at that...

[Satchmo]

I think something like 70 lives were lost the other day due to Iraqi sectarian violence induced by US interference in Middle East politics . Some maniac using one of the 200 million privately owned guns in the USA , to kill 32 white middle class Americans has much more newsworthiness in the West.

[timelord]

If all firearms were banned and taken out of the hands of law abiding citizens who use them for legitimate and sporting use only criminals would still posess guns--I'll bet that the gangland murdererers and criminals never surrendered their firearms during Little Johnnys gun buy back scheme. If you want to live in a dream world then keep dreaming. 600+ people die on our roads each year yet no one suggests banning cars!
Ten times more people died in Iraq today yet made no news. Do we have our priorities right?

[Ingo]

Australia still has the record for the most dead in one man shooting incident.

[ving]

accidents are a little different to murder dont you think? should we ban cancer?

[huckabuck]

hello, i am an american. i own 43 guns. i have never pulled one on a human. there are nut-cases everywhere. this guy was gonna kill innocenent people even if he had to use a butcher knife. i have no problem with the opions expressed here from "the left side" because over here, guns are the reason we can say what we want - when we want. they freed us from a tyrannical government. we are still over taxed but at least now it's our own fault.

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future." --Adolf Hitler, 1935

[matt]

Hi Huckabuck.

I'm not sure whether that Hitler quote supports your case or makes a mockery of it?:shrug: Maybe I'm missing something, but I certainly appreciate the irony in that quote.

Yes. Guns 'freed' the USA from a tyrannical govt... a few hundred years ago. Would you say the same situation applies today? Would that make the Constitution's section about your "right" to bare arms something of an anachronism, tied to another age - the socio/political landscape of the time?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not pro or anti gun. I just think they make it too easy to kill too many people in too few seconds for someone with a will to use them for that purpose.:)

[Mr. Subatomic]

thats...a lot of guns.

[ving]

i have to admit tho that i am attracted to the idea of owning and using a rifle of some sort. but theres a time and a place for everything. :)

[huckabuck]

yep....it is alot of guns. looking back i really can't remember the reasoning behind the purchase of most of them. i guess i just got "caught up" in the whole deal of owning guns. oh, well, i'm over it now. now i go for eyepieces. i have 19. can't remember the reasoning behind that either.:shrug:

and yes the whole idea behind the right to bear arms is, to some extent, antiquated. i was raised in the south and not only are you taught from birth that they insure your freedom, but also, after our civil war(another tyrannical gov't.{not really, thats just the way most southerners saw it in the 50's,60's and 70's}) guns were a necessity for survival in many cases. without them many would have starved. all went hungry. i guess it's more of a programed response than an actual fear of the gov't that causes such a stir over here on that issue. anyway, live and let live. and even though this whole episode was incredibly sad, unnecessary,revolting,and many other adverbs....it is a fact of life that innocent people will be killed be madmen. not that i am condoning such action or making excuses for our laws but if someone has it in their head to go down in history then usually they will find a way.

[iceman]

Let's keep the topic to the sad death of 32 innocent people and give our thoughts to their families, and stay away from topics like gun control and US politics. There are better places to discuss that than an astronomy forum.

[huckabuck]

you are absolutely right mike. sometimes i get carried away. sorry

[fringe_dweller]

I was under the impression that the US attitude to private gun ownership underlying reasoning was one of - who would dare invade a country whose citizens are armed to the teeth with firearms?
and btw paying taxes isnt a form of communism its called society! LOL
which is the impression I get from such trojan horses of cultural imperialism as pay tv ie fox news in particular (ironically owned by a sort of aussie), i'll never forget bill o'reilly with frothy venomous spittle coming off his chin saying something about 'why should my taxes (money) pay for your sick (and dying?) child - in a rant on that vile form of communism - medicare. scary stuff to an aussie lol sometimes we are closer to the english (mother country after all) than a new world/wild west/frontier frame of mind)
please dont take this as anti-US, it isnt, and i'm not, there is very much more to admire and love about the US of course - just an observation on one single aspect of an, obviously, very complex and ultra successful society/country/superpower

[nightsky]

G'Day,
With all due respect Mike,the same can be said about deaths,thats not about Astronomy either,maybe we should have a "Obituary" column or thread that way we can publish and chat about not only idiots killing each other in the States but we can also mention the 1000's of killings and murders around the world mostly war related.
Cheers
Arthur

[fringe_dweller]

btw the way. i have known quite a few gun collectors/enthuisiasts in my life (including me at one point early on, but i am from a the 'smiley get your gun' generation), and at least two of them ended shooting their wives (and then themselves) I think the sqeemish would think twice before using a knife or other gory intimate method, whereas a gun gives a sense of detachment, and distance? making the carrying out of violent thoughts that bit easier?
as for cars and guns - i think a car has many more uses and vitalness than any gun, in this counrty at least - i mean you can transport yourself to the hospital after you've accidentaly shot youself?

[ving]

'smiley get your gun'

:shrug:

[fringe_dweller]

http://www.answers.com/topic/smiley-film-1

its the sequel to this film - some info is there on it - i was refering to an era when it was a common aussie right of passage for a young lad to get his first rifle - usually a .22 - usually to go rabbit shooting with the family.
I also knew some close friends on one of these trips that went horribly wrong - in a accidental shooting, one was left a vegetable - plenty of examples of what happens when harmless fun with guns goes awry.

for a black and white film that had high rotation/prominence on tv when i was a boy in the 60's, there is scant info on the net :shrug:

[Dennis]

At times I am sure most of us have felt the emotions of rage; be it road rage, supermarket rage, or whatever.

However, the sense of self our parents and upbringing instilled within us, overwhelmingly prevents those emotions of rage from dominating our consciousness, to manifest as such wanton destructive behaviour, devastating so many innocent lives.

We were a poor family, but somehow retained a balanced sense of self, although we didn’t know it at the time, nor label it as such. Most people in our neighbourhood were in the same boat.

Any society or culture that predominantly promotes material success, over-achievement, fame, sporting success, business success, etc as the key success factors to creating the only meaningful self-image, also creates losers – those people whose sense of self is overwhelmed by what they have not. If only I had that bigger house in the poshest suburbs, the prettiest girlfriend/boyfriend, the biggest telescope, the shiniest or fastest red car, a win on the lotto, the perfect figure, attended the best University, etc.

There is no glory in poverty, nor does it appear that there is any intrinsic happiness in wealth. However, if you have that balanced sense of self, it is easier to manage the difficulties of poverty and the potential excesses of wealth, without loosing sense of who you are. I think the answer to many of our ills lies in rearing generations of balanced children, as more and more laws just cannot seem protect society from extreme behaviour?

Cheers

Dennis

[Outbackmanyep]

Well to ME, RESPONSIBLE gun ownership has reinforced my belief in self-control and responsibility and to be a law abiding citizen, i know that if i stuff up i lose that privilige......the deal is that its not the guns its the people that use them....and gun ownership in Australia nowadays isnt as easy as people make out.....all the registration hoohaa has done has helped the police distinguish between lawful and unlawful people.....
Dont forget that the gun used in Port Arthur was one that had been "handed over for destruction" to Victorian police, and sold out the backdoor....so who can you trust really?
And the media beat up the fact that NSW had the lowest hand-in count compared to other states for the 1996 buyback....for people who dont know that NSW already had a buyback scheme in 1988-89 for particular rifles (ie: self loading centrefire rifles with a capacity of more than 5 rounds - BANNED in NSW in 1989!) that were banned under the 1996 review in other states....so its no wonder the count was low cos they werent there to begin with!!
America has a big problem with guns, but more associated with drug and gang warfare, and they already have firearm registration laws! For those guys that are law abiding owners that want to keep shooting or hunting if there are drastic changes its best to ride the wave......

Sorry, now im ranting!
The tragedy in the US is bad enough without my two cents being added but i needed to get that off my chest....

[styleman333]

Seems quite ironic that America would defend their right to bear arms but would attack countries like Iraq and threaten the rest for their wish to bear arms .... kinda weird .
Anyway sad situation, my thoughts and condolences to all involved.

[Mr. Subatomic]

I would say that more people have died as a result of guns than weapons of mass destruction, yet we persist looking for these WsMD when they're right under our noses; Things that are a lot smaller and more readily available to public members of society: Guns

[Ingo]

The problem, in this case as in most, was that the kid had serious mental problems, and as such was frustrated and had, in his own eyes, no other way out. When you see a kid doing this, it's because he doesn't think about the consequences because he just doesn't care about life anymore. Nothing can be done to prevent someone who just doesn't care about life anymore from committing some violent crime like this, whether with guns, bombs, or what have you.

It really is becoming more tragic. The media is giving this guy exactly what he wanted, and did it all for in the first place. It truley is saddening seeing the comments on the victims myspace pages such as "please call me asap so I know you're all right" or "call your parents asap"...posting that comment, then knowing your son/daughter/friend/etc. has been a victim in the incident...must be really hard and...it's just...sad. I'm still a senior in high school, and I've thought about what would happen if somebody came into our school and starting shooting people. How much it would change my thoughs on life, and other people around me.

[matt]

Yeah. You're right. I reckon whenever a crazed gunman goes on a rampage and kills dozens of people it's really questionable why the media would report this?:rolleyes:

What were they thinking? That's not news. Anyone can see that.

If this guy was only after publicity, don't you think it's peculiar that he's not around to enjoy 'what he wanted'?

[astroron]

If that's not news, what is it:shrug:
If they don't report it, then they are pushing the problem under the carpet, and after all we cannot expect the media to report only happy stuff.

[matt]

My point exactly:)

Enough with the media-bashing already.

That was just my way of making a point, Ron;)

[Meade bloke]

Not at all , he has made it into history , as others in this country have, for all the wrong reasons..

BTW a weapon / gun has never hurt anyone ........

[matt]

The point I was trying to make was that if these people are simply narcissists looking to gain their 15 minutes of fame through the media, the cruel twist is that their narcissism can hardly be sated if they're dead and not around to enjoy their 'handiwork'.

Just an observation.

I don't believe this guy carried out this attrocity simply because he was certain there was a waiting media ready to immortalise him.

That's too simplistic and naive.

There was a whole lot going on inside this individual's head other than the chance to have a Big Brother moment in the sun.

Just my opinion:)

[nightsky]

G'Day,
IMHO it can all be sumed up in one word "Money"!! until all the resources of this Universe can be equally divided among all it's people and environment, we will still have this sort of thing happening,it's just a matter of the "haves having to much" and the "have not's having much less".Wars are not started by people who want to bring democracy to another country and it's people,it's about "wealth" and wanting more of it.Until we all get a fair suck of the sausage there will never be peace.
Cheers
Arthur

[matt]

Think you make a very fair point, Arthur.

I think for some people the imbalances and unfairness of life can build to such a point that human emotions just explode.

Some people just get to a point, I guess, where all the injustices they feel that have been visited upon them just become overwhelming and consuming.

For them perhaps the only way out is .... out:shrug:

[peter andre]

That's Why I Believe In Skywatching ......it's So Peaceful!!

[Dennis]

All I can offer is my deepest condolences to the families, loved ones, students and community members affected by this awful, senseless tragedy. I cannot even begin to imagine what they must have gone through, or will suffer, upon hearing this most terrible news about the loss of their loved ones.

It seems the most loving and kindest thing we can do, is to offer them our love, prayers and kind thoughts in what surely must be their darkest moment.

May they find some comfort in the collective love and prayers directed at them.

Dennis

[Moonman]

A friend from the US sent this to me the other day just after the news of the shootings. Hope its not too long for a post Steve and Mike

If It Were Up to Me
Words and Lyrics by: Cheryl Wheeler

Maybe it's the movies, maybe it's the books
Maybe it's the bullets, maybe it's the real crooks
Maybe it's the drugs, maybe it's the parents
Maybe it's the colours everybody's wearin
Maybe it's the President, maybe it's the last one
Maybe it's the one before that, what he done
Maybe it's the high schools, maybe it's the teachers
Maybe it's the tattooed children in the bleachers
Maybe it's the Bible, maybe it's the lack
Maybe it's the music, maybe it's the crack
Maybe it's the hairdos, maybe it's the TV
Maybe it's the cigarettes, maybe it's the family
Maybe it's the fast food, maybe it's the news
Maybe it's divorce, maybe it's abuse
Maybe it's the lawyers, maybe it's the prisons
Maybe it's the Senators, maybe it's the system
Maybe it's the fathers, maybe it's the sons
Maybe it's the sisters, maybe it's the moms
Maybe it's the radio, maybe it's road rage
Maybe El Nino, or UV rays
Maybe it's the army, maybe it's the liquor
Maybe it's the papers, maybe the militia
Maybe it's the athletes, maybe it's the ads
Maybe it's the sports fans, maybe it's a fad
Maybe it's the magazines, maybe it's the internet
Maybe it's the lottery, maybe it's the immigrants
Maybe it's taxes, big business
Maybe it's the KKK and the skinheads
Maybe it's the communists, maybe it's the Catholics
Maybe it's the hippies, maybe it's the addicts
Maybe it's the art, maybe it's the sex
Maybe it's the homeless, maybe it's the banks
Maybe it's the clearcut, maybe it's the ozone
Maybe it's the chemicals, maybe it's the car phones
Maybe it's the fertilizer, maybe it's the nose rings
Maybe it's the end, but I know one thing.
If it were up to me, I'd take away the guns.

(P) October 1, 1997; Penrod And Higgins Music / Amachrist Music ACF Music Group International Copyright Reserved
http://www.cherylwheeler.com/songs/iiwutm.html

[cahullian]

I read in the paper the other day that the Australian Gun Buy Back saves up to 280 lives each year. That has to be a good enough reason to keep guns off the streets.
Growing up in Belfast Northern Ireland I have seen first hand the destruction guns can do to human beings. Victims and their families. I for one will never use a gun or allow any of my children to use one either. My heart goes out to all the relatives in this tragedy.

I do think the kid involved wanted a lot of publicity because he sent his home made video to a news channel. That was reason in itself never to play the thing on air. The news media love this kind of thing and it makes me ashamed to be a human being seeing others gloat and glorifying over something that to me makes me sick to my stomach. No sooner had people heard about the murder of their loved ones, they had to put up with seeing the rantings of their murderer all over the media. I know, I know, the freedom of the press and all that. Somewhere somehow there has to be a line drawn and never be allowed to cross. The tragedy has to be reported I'm not saying it shouldn't, but the home video's of these deranged killers should be for the authorities only, not the general public.

Gazz

[nightsky]

G'Day Gazz,
I was born in Belfast also, so I know what you mean,as a former member of "Oglaigha na hEireann" I have seen seen the carnage,mental and physical that is caused by guns.
Cheers
Arthur

[fringe_dweller]

I can't believe the answer to this issue from the NRA and others, was that every person on campus (and what about postal workers?) should be packin a piece for defence purposes - and their deadly serious OMG! I cant get over how powerful the gun lobby is in the US - freakin weird!
As said before, handguns and automatics of all descriptions are for one purpose only - keepin the squirrels in check ;)

[ving]

or as they say in the business: good news doesnt sell... its not about reporting news, its about selling it.
$$$ :(

i'd love to turn to the news and see something other than death and destruction or pollitics but it isnt gunna happen.
I am 100% sure that more good things happen in this world than bad.

the media has alot to answer for...