Paramount PEC and the Southern Hemisphere - finally solved?

[xthestreams]

Hola fellow owners of the crimson beasts.

In the process of trying to diagnose what I thought might have been a hardware problem, I've been working with Patrick Wallace and Matthew Bisque on what appears to have been a subtle bug in their PEC training routine that generated sub-optical PEC curves when trained in the southern hemisphere.

From what I could tell, the curve was slightly out of phase compared to what it should be, so it was correcting, just not as fully as it should/could.

I've been doing testing, there are still a few bugs to iron out, but I was wondering if anyone else wants to give it a crack?

AFAIK it's automatically downloaded as part of the daily build, so should be available to everyone with a subscription.

[Peter Ward]

Really? I never noticed.

My PMEII tracking was always "seeing limited" ...i.e. it was hard to tell the Dec from the RA curves most nights.

That said, sure happy to try the new daily build (when the weather clears :sadeyes: )

[PRejto]

This problem goes back so many years that I am actually "not a happy camper" when it comes to Software Bisque solving end user problems. Even though a friend and I laboriously years ago proved to SB that that the PE curve was 180 degrees out of phase it didn't get fixed, even though SB said it was fixed. Many of us in the S.H. told SB that it was still broken but they simply didn't believe us. Now supposedly it's fixed. Great. I hope so, but I will continue to use PemPro. Sorry if I sound overly bitter. I have posted serious questions on their forum that were jut ignored. The mounts are great when all is in order. Customer service varies all over the map.

Peter

[xthestreams]

Complete agreement - I saw your earlier threads and had assumed the bug must have been resolved.

Whatever the problem, it's subtle (at least for me), perhaps 15-20' out of phase but enough to make a difference.

Having said that I am yet to test on my Paramount ME, let's see if it's all in my head (versus me debugging my MX).

[macditto]

Thank you!
I tried so many times to get PEC working on my Paramount and at best it gave me the same performance as no PEC. Now I understand why I just didn't get an improvement in the peak to peak RMS error, when I went through the process most carefully. In the end Patrick Wallace ran the PEC training log data through his own analysis package and generated the PEC curve for me. When I applied it to the Mount I got the improvement I expected.
So now it seems all along, the problem was their end. I will have to go back to my posts on the subject and see what they have to say about that.
CS Niall MacNeill

[PRejto]

A simple enough test would be to run a PEC with PEMPro, run a PEC with TheSkyX and just compare the two curves after applying each curve to the mount. They wouldn't be identical, but they should certainly be similar in phase and in major corrections! If PEMPro gives a good result and TSX doesn't my strong guess is that the phase is simply shifted to an incorrect position.

If there is a difference this could be demonstrated to Software Bisque. It should be conclusive. I'd do it but I'm currently not able to set up my gear as I'm completing a new home build. When the home is completed should I not be completely broke (!) I will start on the new observatory where it is nice and dark.

Peter

[gregbradley]

I've only used Pempro with my PME and a PMX I had and got good results.
The SB program didn't seem to be anywhere near as polished.

I use the factory installed AP PEC curve on my AP1600 and that seems to be working. I should really update the curve as that
is recommended practice.

Pempro also has a nice polar alignment routine which is an alternative to Tpoint.

Greg.

[Logieberra]

OMG Peter I remember Phil and I had these same “Southern Hemisphere” issues with our MXs back in 2013/14. What a joke… :(

[gregbradley]

That was a bad experience but I must say customer service at Bisque has been good to me. My MX had a poor worm and I only had to mention it to Bisque and they sent me a new worm assembly that was excellent.

It looked like an expensive component.

Just use Pempro. Its an easy program to use and gives great results.

Greg.

[Googaliser]

They did the same for me too - I was actually in Bali at the time (remember those days when we could travel ?). I ran into trouble with my PMX and they Fedex'd a new worm block to me so I only missed a few days imaging.

[Dennis]

I took delivery of an MX+ recently and when I ran the new “Train PEC” Routine it failed – it actually doubled the PE rather than reducing it.:(

I raised a Problem Report on the SB Forum, and they acknowledged the problem, but have not yet provided a fix or a date for a fix.:shrug:

However, as I searched around, I came across this post on IIS (from Paul) and was extremely surprised to see that there has been an ongoing problem (several years) with the PE routine related to Southern Hemisphere owners, whether it be the “Legacy“ Process where the user performed several manual process steps, or the new “Train PEC” Process which is more automated.

I do hope SB fix this problem as I would prefer the HW/SW to work as described in the Manual, rather than having to resort to a 3rd party solution like PEMPro.

For those that have resorted to PEMPro, did you find it an effective solution? I have a feeling that I might be forced down this path given how long the problem has been outstanding and with no date yet provided for a solution.

Thank you Peter for commenting in my Problem Report of the SB Forum, it is reassuring to know that there is an alternative method.:)

Cheers

Dennis

[Bassnut]

Ive tried pempro and Sky PEC intermittently for over a decade now on my PME, they were always crap, I just gave up. Ive found that just a dense super model was fine. If your PE is reasonably smooth then you can just guide it out.

[Bassnut]

"daily build", what a joke, why not just get it right 1st time instead of using customers as beta testers. I have used sky6 on a remote rig for over a decade, updated nothing, it just works. Remote astrophotography is not suited to "daily builds", its dodgy lazy software development IMO.

[Dennis]

Thanks Fred, as a new entrant into the SB Paramount world, I appreciate your feedback in helping me navigate this new environment.:thumbsup::)

I have to set up and tear down each night, so I generally spend the first 20-30 mins running a T-Point Model of between 75 and 120 Pointing Samples and then touching up the PA with the Bisque APA Routine, which has worked well so far.

Cheers

Dennis

[PRejto]

Hi Dennis,

I think you shouldn't hesitate to use PEMPro. It is quite easy and the results have always worked for me. My MEII has very good uncorrected PE (~2.5 ArcSec PTP) but after correction has gone down to .6 PTP. Admittedly you need a very good steady night to get this result. If you want to guide, well Fred is correct, you can guide it out. However, if you want good unguided results a good PEC is required!

Also, if you have a good model you really only need to recalibrate the data. You don't need so many points to recalibrate and this can save a lot of time!

Peter

[Dennis]

Thanks Peter, given that SB could not provide me with a fix by date for the Southern Hemisphere PE “doubling up” issue, I used PEMPro last night and had excellent results.:thumbsup::)

It only seems to work with the 32 Bit version of The Sky X, so I had to configure that to get the ball rolling. I also got an ASCOM error for my camera (QHY268M Bin 1x1) but when I changed the Binning to 2x2 it seemed okay.

For the pre-PEC run, PEMPro reported the following for my MX+ Mount:
RMS Error = 0.834
Periodic Error = +2.1 / -2.1

For the PE Enabled validation run, PEMPro reported as follows:
RMS Error = 0.752
Periodic Error = +0.0 / -0.0

I was a little puzzled by the 0 value for PE so I slewed to M8 and then M16 and grabbed 120 second test shots (at a FL of 2250 mm) and the stars were nice and round, no sign of any egg shaped trailing, etc.:thumbsup:

Previously, in a batch of 30 sec exposures I would have some 10-20% showing evidence of slight trailing, so a good result.

Thanks again for commenting in my problem report post on the SB Forums, it steered me in the right direction.:)

Ypipee - no more autoguiding....

Cheers

Dennis

EDIT:
1. Just added a 60 sec x 20 frames Unguided Raw shot of M16. No calibration, just Align and Stack in PI so it looks a little rough.:)

2. SB just advised that PEMPro can be used with The Sky X Pro 64 Bit and their ASCOM2X Mount Adapter, so I will give that a try next time.

[PRejto]

Hi Dennis,

Good that you finally got an acceptable result with PEC!

What might be interesting to look at would be the curve from PEMPro that works and a curve from TSX that doesn't. My guess is that they will look similar but either be phase shifted or inverted. Maybe you could post them here because I'm really curious. It also might assist Software Bisque (or convince them of the error).

Peter

[Dennis]

Hi Peter

I've just had a look at the PEMPro generated Data Files, and the Bisque TCS Train PEC Log generated Data Files, and they appear to be in different formats.

So, it seems that I can render a BTCS log file in The Sky X Environment to produce results and a rendered PE Curve, and I can then do similar in the PEMPro Environment (Log Viewer) with PEMPro generated data files.

However, it seems I cannot mix and match and I don't have a Data File generated within the BTCS AFTER I had uploaded the PEMPro PE Data to the MX+ to get the final results.

The next time I am out, I will run a data collection process within the BTCS on the PE as uploaded by PEMPro and see what that looks like.

I am cognisant of commercial processes and data, so I don’t want to breach the trust of the relevant software developers by exposing any proprietary data, etc.

Cheers

Dennis

[Dennis]

Hi Peter

As I wasn't expecting any Southern Hemisphere related PE problem, it took me a while to validate my set up and operational practices to make sure that I wasn't the source of the problem.

This has left me with data files scattered over several sessions and 3 PC's which makes it difficult to analyse that data with confidence due to variations in Image Scale, Position Angle, windy nights (lots of them!), etc.

However, now that I believe that SB has acknowledged that there is a Southern Hemisphere PE defect, I am better informed. For my next session I will create a formal running sheet and make records of the output from PEMPro, the SB Legacy Procedure and the new SB TrainPEC Procedure.

In the meantime, I opened my last (successful) PEMPro Log File in the PEMPro Log Viewer and it indicated a Peak-to-Peak PE error of 0.851 arscec/pixel.:)

Cheers

Dennis

EDIT:
Added the BEFORE screen capture to show the PE before it was measured and applied to the Mount.

[Dennis]

Help, I find myself in an awkward position, caught between advice that appears to be contradictory in how an end user can implement it in the relationship between these two SW products.:(

I don’t want to be “right” – I would just like my Paramount MX+ and The Sky X Pro to work as described in the TheSky X User Guide. That is, PEC Training working in the Southern Hemisphere.:)

On the SB Forum I am led to believe that PEMPro is interoperable with TSX 64-bit.:shrug:

I posted a question on the PEMPro Support Forum re The Sky X Pro 32-bit and 64-bit interface to PEMPro and have been advised that PEMPro is a 32-bit application and by Microsoft design will invoke the 32-bit version of other applications it interacts with.

I understand and I am sympathetic to the position of developers who may restrict themselves to only commenting on their own software products, and their right to protect their commercial and intellectual property interests, but it leaves the end user in no man’s land as to what is the truth about how these SW products interact considering such apparently contradictory advice.

Oh well, at least I know PEMPro works with TSX 32-bit and gives me excellent results, so I’ll count my blessings for that positive outcome.:thumbsup:

In the meantime, I would be most glad to hear of the experience of any Paramount user who has used PEMPro with their Paramount, within The Sky X Pro 64-bit environment, or have you all used the 32-bit version?:shrug:

Cheers

Dennis

[PRejto]

Hi Dennis,

I don't use the 64bit version of TSX so I can't comment in that regard.

I think you might be over complicating the comparison between the two programs. What matters is what the curve looks like after it is pasted into TheSkyX and you can do that with both programs quite easily. Just take a screen shot of both curves. My guess is they will look rather similar but phase shifted or possibly inverted and also possibly phase shifted.

Peter

PS I can kind of understand why you desire to keep everything in TSX. But, there are quite a few things that other programs may do better. For example, automation in TSX is quite limited.

[Dennis]

Hi Peter

Thanks for your reply and suggestions, I appreciate them.:)

During the testing phase, I recorded data with the camera at PA’s of 0 degrees and 180 degrees, and sometimes Binned 1x1 or 2x2 all of which can affect the data collection.

It looks like the PE data can be found in one of the SB Files but extracting it takes a bit of manipulation, and then the environmental variables (Image Scale, PA, etc.) are in a separate file.

I would prefer to capture some fresh data over a single session, at the same image scale and PA so I know that whatever data I have in each file is the “truth”.

Incidentally, it seems that the SB Forum post that stated that The Sky X Pro 64-bit works with PEMPro was based on using simulated hardware, and not real hardware. PEMPro have confirmed that PEMPro is only a 32-bit application. I wonder if that lies at the root of the Southern Hemisphere PE problem – have the developers and testers tested it on real HW in the Southern Hemisphere?:shrug:

I have customized TSX 64 with my obstructed horizon, FOV indicators, Chart Elements, Optional Database’s, Custom Toolbar, and many other specific settings to get it to work how I want it to. I really don’t want to have to keep these settings synchronized across TSX 32 and TSX 64, so I would love it if SB would fix this problem.:question:

And then there are those changes beyond the control of SB where external data sources change, such as Comet, Asteroid, etc. source links which have changed at least twice since I have been using The Sky, requiring me to make manual changes within Preferences and replacing a text file in the SB Application Support Folders. Granted that these changes only happen infrequently, but when they do, at least I only have to make a change in TSX 64.

I did run my old Tak EM200 using NINA and Voyager but found that as I set up and tear down each night, TSX can manage each session without the need to go outside its capability.:)

Cheers

Dennis

[gregbradley]

I use Pempro to do PEC on my PME. No issues I have noticed. SB's PEC program is not as good as PEMPRO's.

What issue are you having with Pempro and SkyX ? I think Pempro may like PME mounts though.

On another note I read about PHD2 having some sort of PEC training that may be cutting edge. Perhaps try
that.

PHD2 also has multi star guiding which many have reported as reducing tracking errors significantly.

Greg.

[Dennis]

Hi Greg

Thanks for comments, it is good to hear of your experience.:)

I am not having any issues with PEMPro and TSX 32-Bit, it’s just that a post on the SB Forum suggested that PEMPro will work with TSX 64-Bit, which I could not see how to do, nor get to work. I work in TSX 64-Bit and I was not keen on maintaining a cloned copy of all my setting in 32-Bit as well. Too much of an overhead to keep the two versions in sync.:shrug:

However, it seems that the SB Forum post that stated that The Sky X Pro 64-bit works with PEMPro was based on using Simulated Hardware, and not Real Hardware and in a question I raised on the PEMPro Support Forum, it was confirmed that PEMPro is only a 32-bit application.:)

This led me to wonder if using Simulated Hardware may lie at the root of the Southern Hemisphere PE problem – have the SB developers and testers tested it on real HW actually located in the Southern Hemisphere?:shrug:

From reading the comments in this Thread on IIS, it seems that there has been a long history of PEC Training issues with the Legacy Method, and these seem to have also reared their head using the new TrainPEC Method, which is more automated.:shrug:

The good news that pending a fix from SB, it is good to have a robust alternative solution in PEMPro.:)

After PEC Training with PEMPro, my MX+ Mount has shown that it can take un-guided images at a focal length of 2,200mm for up to 120 seconds with no signs of trailing, so I am very happy with the mount and its performance.:)

The only thing I will need auto guiding for is when I have to Dither, as I believe that TSX cannon Dither in the un-guided mode?:shrug:


Cheers

Dennis

[gregbradley]

I stopped upgrading my SkyX when it went to a subscription payment system.

Not sure what the gain is from 64bit. I guess everything is a bit more accurate.

Unfortunately these types of programs are all written by northern hemisphere people and sometimes errors creep in where the system acts as if its in the northern hemisphere.

I recently lost a rare clear night because my mount all of sudden acted as if I were in the northern hemisphere - pointing to objects at the ground etc, (I think I leant on my keyboard and must have accidentally given the mount a command).

If the curve is out of phase then it will be less effective - is that one of the issues?

Greg.

[Dennis]

Hi Greg

There is a bit of history to this, so here goes.:)

During testing over several sessions, utilizing both the Legacy PEC and the new TrainPEC routines, I discovered that uploading PE Data to the MX+ actually worsened the PE in the “After PEC” phase, by a factor of almost x2. The new TrainPEC procedure in TSX is quite slick and highly automated, which I found to be a great improvement over the Legacy PEC Procedure. But it still doubled the PE.:shrug:

However, these tests were performed under very poor conditions, (our wettest Autumn in 10 years) with very strong wind gusts hammering the MX+. I attributed these anomalous results to user error as this was a brand-new mount, thinking this was part of the (steep) learning curve. Normally I would not even set up under these very windy conditions, but the run of poor weather and time constraints forced my hand.:(

Unfortunately, I also encountered some problems with Image Link during these tests and this sort of muddied the waters, but the folks at SB set me straight on that minor diversion.:thumbsup:

After providing some (wind affected) TrainPEC Files to SB, they provided me with a PE File that I was able to upload to my MX+ via the Bisque TCS and this did indeed improve the PE as follows

Pre-PEC
Periodic Error = +3.1 arcsecs, -2.9 arcsecs and +3.2 arcsecs, -2.7 arcsecs

After PEC
Periodic Error = +1.2 / -1.2

However, browsing the web suggested that several Paramount owners were obtaining After PEC results of better than +- 1 arcsec, so I figured the wind blasts had polluted my results. By this stage, Peter joined the conversation on the SB Forum (alerting me to PEMPro) and I also discovered this very Thread on IIS, where it seems the issue has been active since around 2013/2014.:question:

So, I purchased a PEMPro License and used PEMPro to collect the PE data under no wind loads and it produced the following very pleasing results.

Pre-PEC
RMS Error = 0.834
Periodic Error = +2.1 / -2.1

After PEC
RMS Error = 0.752
Periodic Error = +0.0 / -0.0

After uploading the PEMPro generated PE File to the MX+, a subsequent validation run yielded a PE of 0.8 arcsec Peak-to-Peak, a result I am extremely pleased with. :):)

I then grabbed a 120 sec un-guided exposure of M16 at a FL of 2250 mm, and the stars were nice and round, although it is worth noting that in TSX, I had all the following Enabled:


Apply PEC
Apply pointing corrections
Activate ProTrack
Enable tracking adjustments


Although it might sound a painful journey, it was also a good learning experience so I remain optimistic and have faith in the MX+ and TSX.:)

Cheers

Dennis

[PRejto]

Dennis,

My limited understanding of why TSX is now offering 64 bit versions has to do with new CMOS cameras and the large amounts of data they generate with short exposures. I don't think the 32 bit version suffers at all using a standard CCD camera.

Also, I read a post of Patrick Wallace's (on the SB Forum) and I believe he made a comment that it is nearly impossible for software developers to adequately test programs in the SH. SB ought to have taken you up on your offer to run your system remotely!! Perhaps if you can verify the problem with your new tests you can offer again because I think they miss a lot of posts and tend to jump in to the middle or end of a post missing vital info. It can be mighty frustrating! They make a great mount but customer service is all over the shop....sometimes excellent, other times non-existent.

Peter

[Dennis]

Hi Peter

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.:)

That is also my understanding of why 64-Bit over 32-Bit. In fact in PEMPro, I had to Bin my QHY268M Pro 2x2 to avoid ASCOM errors at 1x1 which might have something to do with the size of the image files.

I suspect that most astronomical SW & HW suppliers have limited resources and it is likely that they evaluate any product issues, or defects, based upon an assessment of their severity (showstopper or mild inconvenience), how many users are affected, is there a work around, etc.:shrug:

I am left wondering that as there are relatively few SH users, given that PEMPro is an excellent work around, the defect is deemed to not be a showstopper, etc. then it might be a long way down their to do list. Having invested their resources to design and implement the new TrainPEC capability, it must come as a great disappointment that the SH defect seems to persist.:shrug:

I find their Support Forum quite limited in functionality and it seems to have been designed as part of an Engineering Management System, to just gather the data in a somewhat terse, impersonal manner whereas for example, here on IIS, it is geared more towards being a social platform, where there is more friendliness, banter and toing and froing.:)

Cheers

Dennis

[PRejto]

Well, Dennis, I hear what you are saying, but it doesn't make me happy to pay SB for yearly subscriptions and then have them pretty much ignore and never fix issues. And, instead of giving service on the forum they depend a huge amount on other users to respond and help out. I just think it's rather bizarre. I've been on the receiving end of both terrific service and also having what I think are important posts totally ignored.

P

[gregbradley]

The sad fact is us southern hemisphere users of SB SkyX are a minority.

That's a great result for Pempro corrections.

I am happy with my now earlier version of SkyX and don't see many reasons to upgrade.

Image link has always been a bit of voodoo. It doesn't work, it doesn't work, it starts working and then stays working. Usually your image scale is a bit off if there are failures. Also use All Sky when doing an image link, it works more reliably.

Greg.

[Dennis]

Hi Peter

No argument from me there Peter, you have pretty well summed up my experience and having used their products and services, and paying for the annual subscription, in my opinion, they do fall short of what might be considered best practice in terms of support and bug fixes for such a premium product at a premium price.:(

In the end, I decided that to keep me sane, all I can do is take care of my own side of the “relationship” and “interactions” and just accept that I do not know what goes on at SB, what challenges they face, the impact of CV-19, component shortages, (short term) etc.:shrug:

I do trust that fundamentally, they manufacture a good product and that all the shortcomings, however much they impact me, are not intentional or negligent.:shrug:

This is not an excuse for poor performance, and it is plain wrong that this issue has been around since at least 2013/14, it’s just my method of keeping my head above the swamp water.

This approach is the only way I have at my disposal to keep me on an even keel in this hobby, as there are so many challenges in getting everything to work all right on the night.

I guess this is my version of home-spun Dennis psychology 101, and how I try to stay calm and sane in a frustrating on-line world. It doesn’t always work but I mostly manage to get back on an even keel and count the blessings I do have.:)

I have been advised by PEMPro that I can collect autoguiding data log files (Relays disabled) in TSX64 and then use a PEMPro Wizard to generate a Paramount PEC File, which I can then upload to the MX+, which is excellent news as I no longer need to sync TSX32-Bit and TSX-64Bit now.:)

Cheers

Dennis

[Dennis]

Some follow up information using PEMPro to upload the PE data acquired from The Sky X Pro via the autoguider logs, to my Paramount MX+:

Well, after a few months of cloudy nights (thanks La Nina :() I finally managed to get out one clear evening and record the PE Data for my Paramount MX+ using The Sky X Pro 64 Bit (Imager.25.log for 4 worm cycles). This was the Pre-PEC File with Autoguider Corrections disabled (Legacy Method).

Pre-PEC
I then used this “Imager.25.log” file in the PEMPro “Paramount Quick PEC” Wizard to “Create Paramount PEC File”. I have attached the following screen captures of the Pre-PEC Graph from PEMPro and The Sky X Pro (Bisque TCS). Both generated from the same Pre-PEC Imager log.

PEMPro
Periodic Error +2.4/-2.0 arcsecs.
BTCS
Periodic Error +1.9/-2.1 arcsecs.

After uploading the (pre-PEC) file generated by PEMPro, “ParamountPec-2022-10-03-115503.txt”, to the Paramount MX+ via the Bisque TCS in The Sky X Pro 64 Bit, I Enabled PEC in The Sky X and collected another Autoguider log (Imager.26.log for 2 worm cycles) with Autoguider Corrections enabled. (Legacy Method).

AFTER-PEC
I then used this AFTER-PEC “Imager.26.log” file in the PEMPro “Paramount Quick PEC” Wizard to display the AFTER-PEC Graph in PEMPro. I have attached the following screen captures of the AFTER-PEC Graph from PEMPro and The Sky X Pro (Bisque TCS). Both generated from the same AFTER-PEC Imager log.

PEMPro
Periodic Error +0.8/-0.6.
BTCS
Periodic Error +0.5/-0.4 arcsecs.

The Image Scale was 0.346 arcsec/pixel with a Position Angle: 180° 28' from north through east. The guidestar was at DEC=0.6 degrees W of the Meridian.

I was pleased with these results. It's a pity that the new SB TrainPEC Routine in The Sky X Pro still does not appear to work for us folks who use our Paramounts in the Southern Hemisphere.:sadeyes:

Cheers

Dennis

[DavidS]

I've been struggling with the TSX PEC routine and cannot get it to produce any sort of PEC at all and hence have just acquired PEMPro only to now get the 32 bit v 64 bit issue. I've started the TSX 32bit version but PEMpro still fails to connect to the mount. Was there any tricks that people used to get these two to talk?

:help:

:bashcomp:

David

[Dennis]

The issue
With my Paramount MX+ and The Sky X Pro, during testing over several sessions, utilizing both the Legacy PEC and the new TrainPEC routines, I discovered that uploading PE Data to the MX+ actually worsened the PE in the “After PEC” phase, by a factor of almost x2.

From reading the comments on IIS, it seems that there has been a long history of PEC Training issues for Paramounts with the Legacy Method, and these seem to have also reared their head using the new beaut TrainPEC Method, which is more automated.

Whilst the new beaut TrainPEC procedure in TSX is quite slick and highly automated, which I found to be a great improvement over the Legacy PEC Procedure, it still doubled the PE.

My workaround
However, there is a workaround, use PEMPro.

I understand that PEMPro is a 32-bit application and by Microsoft design will invoke the 32-bit version of other applications it interacts with, so it will not launch The Sky X Pro 64 Bit application.

But you can use the Legacy PEC Method in The Sky X Pro 64 Bit to generate the “Imager.nn.log” files in TSX Pro with the Autoguider Corrections disabled (Legacy Method).

Jumping into PEMPro, you can use this TSX Pro 64 Bit generated “Imager.nn.log” in the PEMPro “Paramount Quick PEC” Wizard to “Create Paramount PEC File”.

This file can then be uploaded to the Paramount MX+ via the Bisque TCS in The Sky X Pro 64 Bit.

My procedure
When generating the “Imager.nn.log” file using the Legacy PEC Method in The Sky X Pro 64 Bit:


I used the main OTA and QHY268M as the Autoguider, not my smaller guidescope.
I chose a star near 0 degrees declination and near the meridian (due north in the Southern Hemisphere).
I had the Camera PA set to 0 degrees.
Using Image Link in TSX I made a note of the Image Scale (arcsec/pixel) and confirmed PA=0.


Hope that helps some.

In summary:

I collect PE data using TSX Pro 64 Bit which saves this as an “Imager.nn.log” file. This is the PE data with Autoguider Corrections turned OFF, so no Autoguiding is taking place, you are just recording the excursions of the guide star as is.
I then us the PEMPro “Paramount Quick PEC” Wizard to the “Create Paramount PEC File”.
I then use TSX Pro 64 Bit to upload this PEMPro file to the MX+ via the Bisque TCS.


Dennis

[DavidS]

Thank you Dennis. After reading the various posts around the place I decided to get PEMPro which I have now done and am still getting it calibrated so if I can't i'll use the method you have outlined below. :thanx:

David

[Dennis]

It’s a real shame that Paramount users in the Southern Hemisphere continue to experience this long-standing problem, given how many competent users have reported the issue to SB over the years.:sadeyes:

It seems they do not have the appetite to fix it, as when I enquired about a solution, they would not provide a roadmap to a fix, so we must purchase additional SW such as PEMPro for a work around.:shrug:

The procedure that I described 2 posts above is quite lengthy but essentially it boils down to a 3-step process:


Collect the Raw (unguided) PE Data in The Sky X Pro 64 Bit making use of all the whistles and bells such as T-Point, Protrack and a good Polar Alignment.
Open the log file in the PEMPro “Paramount Quick PEC” Wizard and generate a txt file that can be uploaded to the MX+ via the Bisque TCS in The Sky X Pro 64 Bit.
Upload PEMPro generated file to the Paramount MX+ via the Bisque TCS in The Sky X Pro 64 Bit.


The only catch is to make sure you meet all the requirements of the various steps, such as correct image scale, camera PA, star near Dec 0, etc.

Cheers

Dennis

[DavidS]

Thanks Dennis

I tonight loaded the TSX log file and was able to generate a PEC curve. I had only recorded 2 cycles so will now load that up to 5 as per PEMPro recommendations.

:thumbsup:

[Dennis]

That's great, well done.:thumbsup:

Don't forget to then collect a log file with PEC enabled and Autoguider corrections turned ON, so you can then import that Log file into PEMPro which will then show you the corrected PE.:)

If the PE has doubled, then the Camera PA was wrong i.e. 180 degrees out of phase.

I think my MX+ was +2.4/-2.0 arcsecs before PE training and then +0.8/-0.6 arcsecs after PE training.

Cheers

Dennis

[PRejto]

I'm not sure I understand what the issue is about using PemPro because as best I know TheSkyX loads both the 32 and 64bit versions. Why not just use the 32bit version with your camera to get the job done? It's so much easier to collect the data in PemPro! The camera can be at basically any angle and star selection is fully automated. And, you can easily view the data as it is collected and graphed. The graphing gives one a very quick visual evaluation of the errors in PE both before and after correction. It's actually not necessary to go through the wizard. You just need to know the resolution which you can get in lots of different ways. It's also not necessary to get PemPro to slew the scope or move it during the Wizard routine. For some reason it can't move Paramounts easily...not sure why but it's not necessary to get the PEC done.

Also, on both of my Paramounts (MEII and MX+) I have always been able to be below 1 arc-sec PTP. It does take a good night, however, but worth going after in my view particularly if you want to try unguided imaging.

[Dennis]

From what I understand, SB will eventually retire the 32-Bit version, albeit no date has been set just yet.:shrug:

Using 32 Bit PEMPro, I found that it could not handle my QHY268M Pro Bin 1x1 due to 32 Bit file size limitations. However, PEMPro would work when I binned the QHY268M Pro 2x2.

When I used PEMPro and TSX 32 Bit the T-Point Model only applied to the 32 Bit TSX environment and could not be migrated to the 64-Bit environment.:question:

I found it clunky using the PEMPro/TSX 32 Bit combination then disconnecting my imaging system and mount to then open TSX 64 Bit and reconnect everything. Even though one might only run through the PEC Training routine once or twice a year, I decided not to operate in both 32 and 64 Bit TSX environments.:)

Having to maintain Pointing Models, Telescope, Camera, Focuser, Filter Wheel and Rotator Profiles, Custom Chart Settings, Custom Tool Bars, Custom Horizons, User generated Chart Elements and SDB’s, etc. in both a 32 Bit and 64 Bit TSX environment represents a major maintenance overhead, so I have settled on TSX 64 Bit just so I can maintain a single environment and update one instance of the SW.:)

The new beaut (sadly broken) Train PEC Routine in TSX 64 is quite neat, pity it doesn’t work for us poor sods in the Southern Hemisphere.:sadeyes:

When I purchased the MX+ I was not aware that I was acquiring a non-compliant system – it does not meet the requirements of PEC Training as stated in the literature and user guide when operated in the Southern Hemisphere. Worse still, it seems there are no plans to fix this long-standing, much reported, fault.:sadeyes::shrug:

Cheers

Dennis

[PRejto]

Dennis,

Sorry you had to go to such trouble to get Pempro to work for you.

I fully support your irritation with SB over their inability or just plane stubbornness in refusing to admit that the PEC routine just doesn't work for us down here!

Peter

[PRejto]

I may have figured out what is wrong with PEC in the S.H. I posted the following on the Bisque forum (which requires one to log in to read). If anyone with a Paramount is willing to try this and confirm, I'd be most appreciative.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had to redo the PEC for my MX+ recently and given the S.H. issues with TSX/PEC I thought I’d compare the results with PEMpro comparing both the old and new way of generating PEC in TSX. I’m running build 13811

I have posted a folder here that contains 3 images, and the guiding log (old method): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/18gy2E9wk9QeQy-dGGY0hG9sEA3SrRnN3?usp=sharing

My main camera was used and the plate scale was .5 arc-sec. This was the value used by both TSX and PEMPro

1. I started with PEMpro and generated a curve as seen in the photo of the Bisque TCS. This curve reduced my PTO of 2.2 arc-sec to unmeasurable. (see photo of the curve in the Bisque TCS)

2. I switched my main imaging camera to the guider camera, rotated the camera so that X=RA and collected a log as contained in the folder. It measured a PTP of 1.1 arc-sec (obviously with the PEMPro correction turned off) using the image scale of .5 arc-sec . I find it curious that this is exactly 50% smaller than the PEMpro measurement. Coincidence? I did not bother loading the curve because it was obviously not going to work given the PEMpro curve at double value was working. (Guiding log is in the folder)

3. I then gathered PEC in the new automated way after calibrating the imaging camera. Again the curve was measured to be 50% of the value of the PEMpro measurement, and then the measurement was saved to the mount obviously inverted. The correced PE worsened by 50% and the message was “PEC failed.” (see photo of results and photo of curve as automatically saved to the mount.)

I think there may be clues here to hopefully fix the issue with broken PEC in the SH. I have a sense that if one used a plate scale double the actual (in the old method), and then saved the curve inverted, PEC would work.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To test my theory, double your actual plate image scale when running the automatic version of PEC inTheSkyX. That is, if your actual resolution is .5 arc-sec, set 1 arc-sec in the tool. The run will "fail" because the generated curve will be inverted from what it needs to be and your pE will double.. The correct curve is an inverted curve; copy it (no white spaces) and load to the mount in the bisque TCS. It is the image.xxx.pec file in the train PEC folder.

If you compute the curve in the old way with a guiding log and your camera set X=RA, you can invert the curve in the compute PEC window. You may or may not need to invert it to get it to work. It seems the main issue is the incorrect manner in which the plate scale is handled in the computation of PE.

If you try this, please post your results here.
Thanks!
Peter

[Dennis]

Good work Peter, well done.:thumbsup:

I hope that SB uses your investigation as the catalyst to galvanize them into remedial action and supply a software solution to finally fix this problem. It is long overdue.

On a personal note, I will continue to use PEMPro as I know it works.

I have wasted far too much time on the few nights I am able to set up, trying to get the SB methods (Legacy and the new TrainPEC) to work and it has left me somewhat jaded.

Dennis.

[PRejto]

Dennis,

I know exactly why you feel as you do. I hope I'm right; the issue is so hopelessly long and ignored. Anyway, I had some free time during this moon period and thought it wouldn't be so hard to investigate.

Cheers,

Peter

[atalas]

Peter and others,when I first received the MX+ I read through the manual how to collect PEC and use It and had great results.

Showed 3.1" peak to peak and got a 0.9" result after implementing so, whats
changed in the latest builds since I have no idea.

With a 200 point model and ProTrack activated I was able to shoot 30 minute unguided exposures with my then FSQ 106.

No way I could of done that without that 0.9" pec and ProTrack.

From memory I think I just sent It to home position before I started recorded
data but don't quote me on that.....I might of adjusted Dec closer to 0.00
can't really remember for sure about that.

Maybe try going back to build around 2017 and see If that works and If It does It might give SB something closer to look at.

[PRejto]

Hi Louie,

Well, you are one of few that claims it works properly. In my case I have no need to investigate as PEMPro works perfectly. My PEC went from 2.2 PTP to unmeasurable. On the same night, same image scale, same camera, etc using two different methods, TSX was unable to give any correction that looked anything like the very successful PEMPro model. I have owned two Paramounts for more than 15 years and I never once, 2017 or not, was able to achieve a successful PEC using TSX. I think you have been extremely lucky! Are your results repeatable? Are you still using a version of TSX from 2017? That is really quite old, and many things have changed, for sure!

My only reason for the experiment was because a friend - and relatively new user of TheSkyX with a MYT - has failed to get a usable PEC using TSX. He started a thread on the SB forum that went nowhere. I recommended PEMPro which he may try, but I do think he is right, Bisque needs to repair their damaged software. He is fully capable of following instructions and not inexperienced. (He writes scripts for Pixinsight!).

I do appreciate your comments!

P

[atalas]

Peter, just so there's no further miss understanding. I wasn't meaning that anybody can't follow instructions or anything like(It's very simple) that but instead, just relaying my experience with the MX+ in the 2 years I owned It.

Oh and If you remember I did put up the results of my unguided image on the SB site and here on IIS so I think It's a little bit more than a claim :)

[Dennis]

My experience pretty much follows that of Peter.

Paramount MX+ purchased in 2021.

Multiple attempts over multiple nights, using both the Legacy Method and the new TrainPEC Method.

Result: 100% failure.:sadeyes:

After I installed PEMPro, I had 100% success from Run 1 and subsequent runs as I investigated the issue.:thumbsup:

I set up and tear down every session.

With PEC trained via PEMPro, a 100 Point T-Point Model, Accurate PA and ProTack enabled I have no issues with unguided 60 sec exposures at focal lengths of 2350mm (C9.25 F10) and 2415mm (Mewlon 210 F11.5).

Dennis.

[PRejto]

Louis,

I apologise if you took my comments in a way not intended! I don't doubt your success.... I know for a fact that the nearly certain position that Software Bisque takes with customers having issues with PEC is they have incorrectly run the procedure. Perhaps that has made me feel defensive and it wasn't intended to lessen what you wrote. I do find it curious that you could succeed when many of us have failed, hence my question as to whether you may have tried the procedure since your successful run?

Regards,
Peter

[atalas]

All good Peter and as far as trying again since, well, didn't you buy my mount quite a few years back?

Anyway like you and others have said.... SB should address this issue and other bugs too from memory and not ignore the southern part of the world because of lower sales.....just a guess.

ps.you want to sell me the PMX+ back :P

[PRejto]

In sending some files requested by Software Bisque I made an embarrassing discovery. When moving my imaging camera over to the guider tab I forgot to reset the binning from 2x2 to 1x1. Consequently any comments I made with respect to needing to double the imaging scale are moot.

I still contend that the curve generated by TheSkyX is inverted (or reversed?) depending on one's terminogy. i.e, the curve goes neg when it needs to go positive and visa versa. It appears to follow fairly close the PEMPro curve in terms of phase.

Peter

[PRejto]

HaHa, NO! But, I do wonder if you ever tried more than 1X or if you just got lucky?

[atalas]

Lol

Yeah I did back then when I changed back to the RC and all worked well......I don't think I ever had the FSQ mounted again since the first tests.

There was a time when I had to invert the curve.....can't remember why.

I Stopped gathering a new PE after a strip down and re grease because I had great guiding anyway.

The one thing that use to bug me was the drift in RA when collecting data and I would of thought that ProTrack should correct for that but never did:question:

[PRejto]

I did two additional tests using "Train PEC" In both cases the resulting Bisque PEC was placed "inverted" in the TCS PEC window.

The two images below show this. Fortunately the phase seems correct so it ought to be a fairly simple fix to make this work for all users in the S.H.

Run 1 1 sec exposures 4 periods
Run 2 .5 sec exposures 4 periods

The green line is the Bisque curve.
The Red line is a working PEMPro result.

The PEMPro result does look smoother. This may or may not be due to these measurements being taken on different nights. The PEMpro was in excellent seeing. Last night was just average.

Cheers,
Peter

[Dennis]

I admire your tenacity Peter, well done.:thumbsup:

I truly hope that SB implements a fix for this long standing, vexatious software/system bug that cripples PEC Training in the Southern Hemisphere via TSX.:shrug:

Dennis.

[PRejto]

SB has responded that the PEC routine is much more complicated than I've made it out to be. Namely, they need data from both sides of the meridian, data from a mirrored camera, and with the camera where X does not = RA.

I will attempt to do this because I started this quest.

However, I also think what I've shown is straightforward and a basic scenario. One would expect the PEC software would at least come up with a workable solution.

When the moon is once again casting too much light I will return to this project!

Peter

[Dennis]

I think you are a real trooper with the ongoing work you do for SB.:)

I have previously uploaded data files from my efforts where the program bug was producing incorrect results, and I believe that others have too.

I still believe that we are not being taken seriously in the SH, which is a real shame. SB do not appear to have the resources or appetite to fix this.

Well done you, Peter.:thumbsup:

Dennis.

[PRejto]

I posted the following in the Software Bisque Forum yesterday:

Test 1. OTA on East side of mount. Train PEC fails and puts an inverted correction into Bisque PEC.

Test 2. OTA on West side of the mount. Train PEC fails putting in an inverted correction.

Test 3. OTA on East side. Camera produces a mirrored image (I used an ONAG). Train PEC succeeds

Test 4. OTA on West side, Mirrored image, PEC succeeds.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Success was measured by comparing the successful PEC generated by PEMPro to TheSkyX results.

All of these tests were done with the new "Train PEC" option. I used my main imaging camera at .5 arc-sec for the first 2 tests, and 1 arc-sec for tests 3/4. The imaging camera was calibrated and x was not aligned with RA (as requested bt Software Bisque).

I have noticed (as others have also reported) that if the PEC is incorrect the 2nd part of Train PEC also fails. I believe this is because the incorrect inverted PEC drives the guide star out of the guiding box before the second part of Train PEC starts up. Perhaps using a much larger guiding box would solve this problem, however, the fact that the guide star is lost is an instantaneous warning that Train PEC has failed.

Thus far, no response from Software Bisque..... Hopefully this will lead to a repair.

Peter

[Dennis]

Well done, Peter, I am impressed by your dogged determination in the face of numbingly unresponsive support, given that this behaviour has been reported by several competent users over many, many years.:shrug:

Excellent job.:thumbsup:

Dennis.

[Joshua Bunn]

+1
Determined and persistent, well done!

[PRejto]

Thanks Dennis and josh,

It is nice to finally know what the problem is!
I do wonder if Software Bisque has the ability to repair this given the departure of Richard Wright. I'm pretty sure he had a big role in developing this software. At the moment I'm not sure thay have anyone workinhg on software, hence Daily Builds are more like quartely or yearly....

P

[Dennis]

Any news yet Peter?

I see that on the SB Forums no one has replied to your post with any details of if a fix will ever be attempted, or if so, when it might be released for us long-suffering Southern Hemisphere users??:shrug:

Dennis

[DavidS]

I’ve been following a few threads - the subject gets brought up enough it must be bugging them (sorry - couldn’t resist) - there was some indication a few days back that they are working on a fix although it didn’t sound like next week.

I must say it doesn’t sound like a hard thing to fix that a decent dev couldn’t do in a few days. They already know which hemisphere it is in.

I think their bigger issue is the tracking of the star and the separating it from the noise and hot pixels. They seem to get a constant stream for help around that. That is a more difficult problem than just working out which file to load.

[PRejto]

I have to say that being totally ignored on the SB forum after my last post has beeen a bit demoralising. I have given them what they need to fix it and it really couldn't be that hard.

I feel confident that if you are using a mirrored camera the results will work. If not, as most are, the result will fail unless the curve is inverted.

Cheers,

Peter

[Dennis]

So sorry to hear that your efforts are being ignored Peter, that is a very sad state of affairs indeed for such high end mounts.

From what historical information I can gather, it looks like this Southern Hemisphere PEC software bug has been around for some 10-12 years, at least.:shrug:

It has been consistently reported by what I believe to be several competent Southern Hemisphere Paramount users, so it does not appear to be the result of operator error.

I believe a significant management/technical change needs to happen at SB before this bug will be fixed, as the current management/technical team have demonstrated that they have no appetite or resources to fix this embarrassing problem.:sadeyes:

In the meantime, I will continue to use PEMPro as a reliable work around.

Dennis.

[PRejto]

Thanks Dennis. I think the departure of Richard Wright was the end of SB being able to be innovative with TheSkyX. Daily build have basically stopped. It's a situation where people will just not resubscribe because there is so little that is "new." Just my 2 cents.

P

[bxobservatory]

Just came across this thread, incredibly useful, I am lucky, I already have Pempro installed.

SB deserve a serious listening to.

Thank you

[atalas]

Hey Pete....interesting you say that because when I had success with pec I was using an onag which gave me a mirror image.

[PRejto]

Louis, that's interesting ana a nice confirmation!

I was finally contacted by SB privately and I sent additional information from my tests. They may, or may not, log into my observatory to run some tests. Hopefully they doit to test a revision. It would be nice to put this issue to bed!

Peter

[Dennis]

I hope something comes of this Peter, thank you for supporting SB with your test results.

Dennis.

[Dennis]

I’ve just seen a post on CN which writes that the Software Bisque website has been down since around 13th Feb.:question:

Have you had any news on the bug fix yet, Peter?

Dennis