Intel NUCs for telescope control

[AdamJL]

Hi all

I currently have a laptop (Surface Book 2) that has 2 USB-A ports and 1 USB-C port.
This is one less than I need (mount, guide camera, main camera, polemaster) and so generally I unplug the polemaster when it's finished aligning.

But I was thinking of getting an Intel NUC or similar to use in the field as quite a few have 4 USB ports, but have a few questions, if anyone else is using something similar.

1. I never shoot from my backyard because I can't, so always have to use mobile power. Do these things require lots of juice?
2. Anyone know the voltage requirements? I saw one that had 19V printed on it, which seemed high. My Surface Book says it needs 15V but it runs fine from my Jackery.
3. I presume people just take a tablet and remote into the NUC?
4. Any issues to be aware of?

Cheers!
Adam

[Rerouter]

You can usually find reveiws for NUCs that will cover things like its power consumption. Looks like most fall in the ballpark of 5-10W idle. To 70-90W full load.

Each model may use a different voltage and you will have to look it up once you have narrowed down what one you want. However based on the wattage I would expect similar to a laptop power brick meaning you can lilely use a laptop dc-dc power brick to run it off 12V like the rest of your gear

Before all this. You can try a powered usbC hub. The cameras to your USBA ports. And the polemaster and mount should be happy sharing a usb3.0 pipes bandwidth

[glend]

Just be careful, some imaging cameras require a direct dedicated USB3 port on a laptop, the ASI are one example. I had to use a powered USB3 extension cable, direct to my laptop, and everything else through my powered hub to a second USB3 port on the laptop.
The USB cables supplied with some cameras are too short if your any distance from right under the tripod or pier, and extending pretty much demands a powered extension cable (5V supply via an AC or other adaptor).
So sort out any field issues before you commit.

[The_bluester]

I have been using a NUC at the telescope for about 18 months now. I now have two of them, one for each rig. One is an 8th gen i5, the other a 10th gen I3, 8G of memory and a 500G M.2 drive in each. They have been reliable performers. I can't say exactly how much power they pull but on my refractor (Small heater belt) I have a 9AH 12V gel cell backing up the power supply and it will run the mount, heater, NUC and camera for maybe half an hour in the event of a power bump. It is not intended for longer term supply, just to float it over any interruptions. the NUC is not exactly a power hog but obviously uses more than a Raspberry Pi. On my SCT with a heater that runs to 2A it would not last long in an outage. I have them mounted in plastic enclosures to keep the damp off them, with USB3 extension cables ending in through-panel USB ports so I basically never need to open up the box. The NUCs are configured to boot on power being applied.

You need a router of some description to make it easy, but I remote in to mine via Teamviewer with "Exclusively accept LAN" connections enabled so they only work within my own network, and you don't need a Teamviewer account to get to them.

Later versions of the NUC are supposed to run from 12V to 19V supply but I found at least the first of mine (Which should be 12V compatible) flaky at 12V so I use 12V-19V DC-DC converters off Ebay. The input supply is 12V to simplify what I have and the NUC still runs off it's preferred voltage. At 12V it would sometimes start boot looping.

Edited to add: My experience is different to Glens, One of my rigs (The ASI294) is direct connected to the NUC via a dedicated USB3 cable, the other one (An ASI2600) on an iOptron mount is connected via a USB2 cable to the hub at the top of the mount and then to the NUC via a USB3 cable from the base of the mount. I had issues finding a USB3 cable between the mount and camera that worked reliably so I dropped that section to USB2 and it has been fine since. Even at 50 meg or so file sizes the camera download only take a couple of seconds at USB2 speeds. I have a spare USB3 port cabled to the NUC inside it's box if I ever get around to running a dedicated camera USB3 cable through the center of the mount.

[glend]

I should add that my cabling issue with the ASI1600MM-C, was distance based in my observatory, and in the field to my field workstation. Many other ASI1600 users have also had issues with the USB3 cable when it is shared with the guide camera. The common fix was to use a powered hub for the guide camera on a different Laptop port. Not all cameras may experience this issue, which is why I suggested you test first.

[The_bluester]

The only time I have had a problem was when moisture in the USB-C port of my guider caused an issue, the USB-C port was (And still is) connected to the USB2 out on the ASI294, but when it messed up it took both cameras offline.

So while I have not had any real issues with cables and hubs there are certainly advantages to dedicated cables. It was a bit of messing about before I worked out the guide cam not the main cam was causing me the problem.

[AdamJL]

My laptop won't drop below 45W to be honest, even on a good day.
Sometimes it idles at 65W. I've just plugged it into the Jackery and have the screen at the lowest setting and it's at 64W. So even if the NUC spikes, if it idles at 4-5W, that's beyond amazing..



Thanks. Yes the USB cables seem fine for now, but I'll have to make sure the cameras have dedicated ports from what I have also read. I don't know if the mount also needs it, but we'll see



Hmm. 9AH is a small unit, sure, but 30mins isn't great. My Jackery is a 240Wh (16.8Ah) battery. I have another LifePO4 that can be used to charge it, and it is 12Ah, so that seems like about3-3.5 hours based on your use-age.
I guess I'll have to find power draw specs online for these NUCs before I go any further.

[glend]

Don't skimp on your battery power. It's not just a case of the NUC draw, but the cameras (if cooled it will require a separate power supply for the cooling). Also consider any dew heaters you might need to power, likely through a heater controller like the Kendrick. Come winter you will need them. I used to carry a 100ah gel battery on my trips out to Bretti (Dark Site), and recharge it during the day. The NUC maybe the least of your worries in the field.

[AdamJL]

I have one dew heater, might get another (though I still like the old hand-warmer and elastic band trick), but it doesn't draw much power.

Lead acid/gel batteries are out of the picture; I don't want to lug something that heavy. Might look at a higher capacity Lithium pack instead.

[Astronut07]

Howdy Adam

So I have the following on my mobile rig
I purchased this mini pc from Amazon it is 12VDC

Beelink Gemini X55 Windows 10 Mini PC Computer 8GB RAM 256GB SSD Intel Pentium J5005 4M Cache, Up to2.8GHz, Support 4K 60FPS Play, Gigabit Ethernet, D https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B07Y4ZTS4W/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apip_WHsRAEsGstJSn

I also run a Pegasus astro pocket Powerbox advance to power mini PC, camera, dew heaters & focuser

I run win10 pro & remote into mini pc with either iPad or laptop that I just have Incase iPad connection fails

Attached is pic


Cheers
Ben

[The_bluester]

That is an estimate on my part. To really know I would need to test it properly, the half hour probably came from using the NUC directly on 12V (So it would fall over earlier than using the boost converter for 19V) Just remember in my case the battery is not intended to "Run" the rig, only to keep it alive through power bumps. We are at the very end of the line feeders wise for our power supply, our reliability is not what I would call great (And I work for the distribution business we are supplied by)

[Camelopardalis]

I have a few NUCs for various purposes, mostly because they’re cheap and versatile.

I’ve not had a problem with any of them running off 12v. If you don’t need the processing power, then look for one of the Atom based older generations, as they really sip power - I measured mine at 2W. The Atom models are now out of favour and so dirt cheap.

The Core-based ones can be pretty reasonable, but not that low. And once you add a nice SSD and memory to it...you just have to watch whether the cost hits your target.

FWIW, you don’t need a fast machine to do deep space imaging - a faster unit is really only useful if you do processing on it as well.

[The_bluester]

I would agree with that (Not needing a very fast machine) I went with the i5 new for my initial one to make for snappy plate solving, but on the second one I got a near new i3 off ebay. Blind solves take noticeably longer but not offensively so. near solves with PS2 are nearly as fast, the background estimation takes noticeably longer but that is about it. Though I have paired the new camera (50mb files compared to 22mb) with the i3 not the i5 as that is just the order I bought and built them.

[AdamJL]

Nice one, Ben, that looks great. Also, can I ask what scope is that? I'm looking at a 130 this year or next, which looks around the same size as that.
Interested about the iPad remote connection failing, does that happen often? That was my only worry with a NUC... if the remote connection fails, getting into the machine would be an issue which would require more gear to take along



Okay thank you, Paul.



Fantastic, thanks Dunk. Glad I can run a low power rig on 12V. That's my aim.



Good point on platesolving! I've set NINA up to run ASTAP first and Astrometry.net as a backup. Astrometry is the better blind solver but it's all done online so no local resources required. ASTAP though, I've never used it in the field, so not sure how much power it needs to solve. I'll test that out.

[The_bluester]

It is actually possible (And not hard) to build a local astrometry.net server so you can locally blind solve with it online.

[Astronut07]

Adam

Scope is WO132
Remote connection via iPad normally fine
I always bring laptop with me
Only reason I had on in shot was I was going to show other members software I have installed & running on both laptop & on the mini pc

[RugbyRene]

Have you considered a Raspberry Pi instead of a windows PC? They're cheap & use little power. It will mean replacing some of the software you use but there's good alternatives like KStars for acquisition.

Rene

[Camelopardalis]

On the plate solving front, you can install ANSVR (https://adgsoftware.com/ansvr/) - that bundles up the astronometry.net tools and helps you install the right index files for local use.

Obviously, plate solving becomes faster on faster CPUs, but is mostly single-threaded, so if you have multiple cores it's typically only using one. And of course, CPUs consume power...but they don't consume much while it's just tracking, guiding and taking regular "long" exposures.

I found a big speed increase going from my earlier Atom-based NUC to the i3, so going from about 30-40 seconds to solve down to single digits, for a hinted solve (ASTAP, PlateSolve2). Blind solves always take longer because it doesn't have that hint about where it should start looking.

The flip side is that the i3 uses (at idle) 5x the power of the Atom. I see it as a case of horses for courses...my Atom NUC is now relegated to (mostly) DSLR stuff while the i3 is the general workhorse...which includes lunar and planetary, writing to NVMe SSD :D

[The_bluester]

I have a DC current clamp, I should take a reading sometime on what the i3 and i5 boxes pull current wise during the various stages of imaging.

[AdamJL]

Thanks. Beautiful scope :) Out of my budget, I'll look at the Astro-Tech AT130EDT instead.



Yeah, but it seems way too fiddly.



Thanks! Hopefully NINA can talk to ANSVR.
I guess I could accept the higher power draw when plate solving seeing as it'll be done very few times in a session, then set the CPU to ramp down.



That would be most helpful to me and anyone else interested, if you could do that!

[Camelopardalis]

When it comes to power consumption, the average will be a result of the power profile set in the “bios”. Most modern machines are very configurable in this respect, and the NUCs are no exception. This controls the hardware response to heat, and the operating system energy controls interact with this.

For reference, a good guide is the TDP = Thermal Design Power, which is the heat generated during “normal” usage. Of course, it’s mostly a useless metric because not every use case is the same, and the processor manufacturers measure it differently, to try and one-up each other.

But if you see a measurement for TDP-down, that usually relates to the average energy expulsion using a miserly energy profile. Just be careful with the energy settings, because some energy profiles manage power supplied to USB ports, which in turn can affect the behaviour of connected accessories, such as cameras, etc.

[Andrew B]

Hi guys - just starting to dome setup for my Meade. I have a NUC question please.
I have a Pegasus ultimate v2 power hub and pegasus say I can fit the NUC and the power hub to the scope on a dovetail and the use Remote Desktop to connect via a dummy laptop. Can I guide and image at the same time via N.I.N.A and the take image on USB stick into house for processing at the end if the session. Can the NUC run both together with N.I.N.A controlling???
Many thx for collective wisdom
PS - any pearls on managing moisture for all the gear would be great too.

[AdamJL]

Hi Andrew

Yes that's how I do it. The NUC is on a dovetail clamp (it used to be on the Losmandy bar itself, but I took it off so I could use the NUC on other setups) and below the NUC is a Pegasus Powerbox Advance.

These all move with the scope and I control it all via NINA.
For the Pegasus, you can connect the device to your NUC via a USB 3 Type B cable. NINA will then connect to the Pegasus (just make sure you start the Pergausus software first in Windows, otherwise NINA won't run it).

Can't help you on the moisture for the dome, as I don't have one. I just use two PrimaLuceLab dew strips that are plugged into the Pegasus.

[AdamJL]

Here's an image of the setup. It's not technically a NUC, it's a Beelink mini PC (Modern NUCs really want 19V and I can only provide 12-13V)