Fornax A - How deep can we go? Thanks Scotty!

[strongmanmike]

This image was collected over three nights (with the usual beer through the night and Maca's on the way home :P) and is a deep rendition of the interacting galaxies in Fornax, NGC 1316/1317.

I framed it to take in the usually overlooked, looping tidal tail/extension, to the lower left of the galaxy in this image, make sure you have calibrated your monitor (https://pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/55347254/original) in order to clearly see this faint feature :thumbsup:.

Stretching and enhancing the 10hrs of Luminance data (12 inch aperture at F3.8) reveals that when the faint extensions and halo are factored in, this tumultuous galaxy tango field is quite enormous on the sky, covering slightly more sky area than the full moon!! :eyepop: and it barely all fits in my 38' X 30' FOV!

Cool to note too, that the only bit of recent star formation that has occurred, in either galaxy, is the ring of blue stars encircling the inner regions there in NGC 1317, the rest of the scene looks to be made of rather ancient stars..? :confuse3:

NGC 1316/1317 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/strongman/50593873117/in/dateposted/) (click on image and pan around with your cursor)

Enhanced Luminance (https://pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/171213541/original) (to better reveal the very faint tidal tail, various extensions and the massive galaxy halo)

To go galaxy hunting HERE (https://pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/171213159/original) is the Full Res Full Size version.

A close up look at the complex array of dust lanes, within the inner 2' X 2' core region, is attached to the post and also HERE (https://pbase.com/image/171213555/original) :thumbsup:

HERE (https://pbase.com/image/171216187/original) is a comparison with the ESO 2.2m telescope at La Silla :D

EDIT: How faint can we go?...

Scotty Alder (Tornado33) made an interesting comment regarding this image on Facebook, that gotta me to a thanking....hmmm? :question:

Scott commented that he would like to see me push my big fast scope to see how deep it can go, hey a bloody great idea :thumbsup:...but then I thought, hmm? I took 10hrs with a 300mm dia scope at a fast F3.8 under reasonably dark skies, so I wonder just how deep I had already managed to go..? :)

So I searched for deep images or even better, quantitative empirical papers on the brightness of some of the faint outer tidal tail regions of NGC 1316. Well low and behold it didn't take long and I found one :D

A paper by E. Iodice et al (https://www.eso.org/public/archives/releases/sciencepapers/eso1734/eso1734a.pdf) from 2017 shed some very interesting light on my enquiry. This paper used deep imaging data from the ESO VLT Survey Telescope (VST) a 2.6m F5.5 modified Ritchey-Chretien optical layout with a two lens wide-field corrector and located at Cerro Paranal in Chile.

In fact this paper revealed that some of the very faintest structures captured in my data were only identified as recently as 2017 and reported in this paper, the faintest of which (labelled L9 in the annotated image at the link below) shine at an almost impossibly feeble 30.1 mag/squ arc sec!! (which is about 2000X fainter than the core region of the galaxy!)...but never the less, still detectable with amateur equipment :eyepop:

So the initial answer to Scotty's question is..well? in 10hrs worth of 10min exposures through my 12" F3.8 Newt, using a modern commercial cooled CCD camera (SXVR-H694) I can (at least) record faint structures with surface brightness's fainter than 30mag/square arc sec!...that's BLOOD FAINT...in this case, so faint in fact, that even for a significant and regularly studied galaxy like NGC 1316, they weren't identified until just 3 years ago! :thumbsup:

Here is the image analysis showing the depth reached (https://pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/171241883/original) (remember to have your screen adjusted (https://pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/55347254/original) properly with brightness turned up as these features are very faint)

Enjoy

Mike

[GUS.K]

Thanks for sharing Mike, stunning images.I'm set up at our local club site right now, and the Fornax galaxies are on my list tonight.

[strongmanmike]

Cool :thumbsup: I looked it this galaxy while I was imaging it, using my 12" visual dob under reasonable (Bortle 4) skies, it was two fuzzy blobs side by side, one larger than the other :lol:....love to look at it through say a 24-30" Dob (like Allan Wades (http://www.sdmtelescopes.com.au/scope-showcase/sdm100-32-f3-3/)) under Bortle 1 skies though....:question: :D

Mike

[kosborn]

Great image Mike. There's lot's of good things about this hobby of ours, both scientific (which is what attracts me) and artistic. This image is a great example of the artistic while preserving and show casing the science in the hobby.

Kevin

[alpal]

Great image Mike,
I didn't realise that target was so large in a frame.
Thanks for posting that.


cheers
Allan

[marc4darkskies]

Very interesting image Mike! Nicely done! :thumbsup:

The faint foreground stars seem a little thin on the ground though. I'd have thought with 10 hours of Lum they'd be more obvios?? :question:

[strongmanmike]

Cheers Kevin, it's always cool to check your pretty picture data, for cool things within and appreciate the object and all the interesting things captured in a FOV. It can be easy to find ourselves focused on trivial processing perfection and completely forget what it is that we are actually doing :shrug:...ie. imaging cool stuff :thumbsup: :D



Yeah it's huuuuge! :)



Thanks Marcus :thumbsup:

Interesting observation mate...hey? perhaps, dunno?...but to be honest, not a biggy for me in the scheme of things :shrug:....plenty of other cool stuff in the image :thumbsup: I could probably enhance the fainty wainty stars back in a tad but de-emphasising the stars does help showcase the galaxy detail :D...think star removal and Topaz AI :lol:

Your comment got me curious though :)...HERE (https://pbase.com/image/171216187/original) is a full res 1:1 comparison with 2.2m ESO data (https://www.eso.org/public/images/eso1411a/)...if you look very closely, with a nice bright monitor, the missing stars are only the very tiniest faintest ones here and there but most can be faintly seen in both shots...apart form the missing fainty waity stars, I recon the overall galaxy detail, otherwise holds up very nicely to the muuuuch bigger aperture in better seeing :eyepop:, so meah, I'm happy enough :)

In the end, the reality is, limiting magnitude is essentially a function of aperture...and of course seeing (wobbly atmosphere scrubs out the faintest stars), so, unless you hammer mega data (ala Rolf Olsen :prey2:) a 0.3m aperture has a hard time matching a 2.2m, at least as far as reaching faint stars goes...but!...detail in extended features is a different story :)

Mike

[Andy01]

Great image Mike, well documented too - great job! :)
I enjoyed the deep view into feint fuzzyland as well - thanks for sharing. :thumbsup:

[jahnpahwa]

Unreal, Mike :thumbsup: A very, very interesting one to look long and hard at :)


To anyone thinking that the thumbnail attached is the main show, I suggest taking the time to load up one of the links!


The comparison with ESO is testament to your talent, effort, experience, etc. What a gun!

[strongmanmike]

Thanks Andy :thumbsup:....woooonder....what.... yoooou ...collected under dark skies...:confuse3: aaaaah? ;)

Mike

[strongmanmike]

Thanks JP :thumbsup:...yes, like actually reading the post :rolleyes:... I am sure there are many who canni be bothered clicking on the links either :doh:...oh well, never mind, their loss :D :thumbsup:

Mike
..a gun...? :question: :nerd:

[Andy01]

Lol 😂 nothing! Spent the night with my mate Paul programming & calibrating all my gear to work & play nice with SGP - Automation at last! Started an image run at 2:00am but clouds rolled in an hour later. Didn’t matter though, as everything is now working and I can potentially image platesolve & flip, while sleeping - worth burning a night in the country to get that done! 🙂

[strongmanmike]

Ok but..? was any beer or wine had through all that? :question:

[The_bluester]

Beer, wine and whiskey..

[vlazg]

Great image Mike, spent a lot of time going over the details, awesome 😎

[strongmanmike]

Indeed Paul...I have a nice Talisker out at the observatory, a wee dram is always good to top off a productive clear night :D



Cool, Great to hear George :thumbsup:

Mike

[marc4darkskies]

Nah, forget AI - it's just a buzzword for automating somebody else's heuristic logic. Use your own RI (Real Intelligence) - much better results. :P



Cool!

"Fainty wainty" eh?! Is that a new advanced astro-processing term? :lol:



You mean like the wobbly atmosphere last night that scrubbed ALL my fainty wainty stars? :P

Nice image Mike. :thumbsup:

[gregbradley]

Only just saw this one. Wow, what a stunner. Such amazing resolution. Look at that blue ring around the core of the smaller galaxy. Is that all new star formation going on?

Greg.

[multiweb]

Impressive details in that bright core. Nicely done. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[strongmanmike]

Yeah, like "worms" :)

[strongmanmike]

Thanks men :thumbsup: I assume Greg, lots of blue stars? I can't make out any HII but that could just be a resolution issue?..generally speaking we would assume blue stars are likely to be rather cosmically young...unless, like is hypothesised in globular clusters (think Blue Stragglers), they have resulted from the merger of two big old stars...? :question: :thumbsup:

Mike

[Bart]

Wow Mike, that is awesome! Love the galaxy structure!:eyepop:

[h0ughy]

What can I say, still trying to comprehend what you gathered but it looks cool

[strongmanmike]

Thanks guys, it's a rather unique galaxy (dance) huh?...and not imaged that often really either :)

Mike

[Placidus]

That's awesome, astonishing, and wonderful Mike. I'm amazed that you could pull all that out in only 14 hours. The F/3.8 helped I guess.

:eyepop::eyepop::eyepop:

Helps one to visualize the process of interaction between the two galaxies.

Very best,
MBJ

[codemonkey]

Awesome job, Mike! Doesn't get any better than that. Wasn't sure on the composition until I saw the enhanced luminance with the faint tidal tail and then it all made sense... I don't remember that tail from when I imaged it. Again, awesome job!

[strongmanmike]

Thanks Mikey and Trishy :)...certainly a mess has been created :eyepop:



If you can't see that tail-loop in the main colour image, you ain't got yer monitor calibrated properly for brightness/contrast mate :doh:, it stands out nicely on both my monitors and the ones at work, particularly if the room isn't too bright :thumbsup:

No, there are very few images out there that show this faint tail/loop actually :):)

Mike

[Ryderscope]

Definitely stunning in many aspects. Technically very informative and a visual extravaganza :thumbsup:

[codemonkey]

I'm less convinced of that than you are. I suspect you run your monitors way brighter than I find comfortable. I don't need my monitor frying my retinas every time I look at it.

If I turn my monitor up to its brightest setting, I can see a hint of that tail loop in the "main colour image", I definitely wouldn't say it stands out nicely. My monitor is calibrated with a Spyder.

I think the key is how bright our monitors are. I find it most comfortable when "white" is about as bright as a piece of standard printer paper is under the current lighting conditions; I thus adjust my monitor accordingly throughout the day. You may say I run it too dark. I think I would find yours uncomfortably bright. I have the feeling when you get prints done they probably seem way too dark too.

[strongmanmike]

Thanks a lot Rod :thumbsup:, there aren't too many galaxy tangos like this up there, certainly not many as close as 60 Million Lyrs anyway :)



He he, easy solution then, when you are looking at one of my images, hey, turn your screen brightness up so you can see it more how I see it :lol:...you can then turn it back down again, call it Mike setting :P

Mike

[topheart]

Well done Mike!
Very illustrative.... would have been a shame to remove the background thinking it was a gradient in the image!! :D

Cheers,
Tim

[Retrograde]

Amazing image Mike!

Haven't had a chance to look at everything yet but will have a good long on the big monitor when I get home. :thumbsup:

[John Hothersall]

Comparison with 2.2m scope shows pretty similar dust contrast although the big scope shows smaller stars as expected - the comparison is a great benchmark to how well you have done - always love these side by side. Enhanced luminance is superb.

John.

[strongmanmike]

Thanks Timbo, ha ha yeah, I am sure plenty have done this before when processing this baby :)

Mike



Cheers Pete and remember to have your screen brightness up (https://pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/55347254/original) ;) and view in a darkened surrounds if possible, the faint outer tidal tails should be more obvious then :)



Thanks John, was happy with the capture overall :thumbsup:
How's your big 350 going? Still shooting any deep sky?

Mike

[The_bluester]

I can see I am eventually going to have to replace my old SCT (And the camera that is attached to it) I shot the same target with that combo for 11 and a bit hours of 300 second subs (The ASI294 does not reward longer subs than that) and it just lacks that final bit of sharpness.


I can't complain too much having pressed pretty marginally suitable gear in to service, but my image is certainly not a patch on yours!

[strongmanmike]

Generally speaking, SCT's seem quite good for lucky imaging for planets but seem to deliver slightly under par for deep sky, with the resolution suffering and the stars tending to look somewhat blobby. Of course, like you have demonstrated, there are still many fine images taken with a SCT, they just never seem quite as crisp as those taken using their RC/Newt brethren :shrug:

Mike

[The_bluester]

Yeah, at the limits it just seems to be a bit soft, I know it was in focus as Voyager really nails focus from what I can see, and lacking a temperature sensor I have it set up to burn a bit of imaging time and do focus runs quite often (The SCT shifts focus dramatically with temperature changes)

I really can't complain, I bought it as a visual scope and that was ten years ago! Maybe time for it to retire back to putting light into squishy eyeballs again and get/make something more suitable.

[strongmanmike]

Just enjoy the process (pardon the pun) the challenge and most importantly the fun this game brings, there are enough imagers whose pursuit of absolute perfection in imaging consumes them to a point of losing touch with what they are actualy doing and that's capturing scenes and portraits of amazing celestial and cosmic intrigue, a half decent image can be very satisfying...it doesn't need to be perfect or a prize winner :) :thumbsup:...amen :lol:

Mike

[gregbradley]

Good point Mike. The whole activity is a lot of fun plus it gets you out in the environment looking at the night sky. The environment takes on its own beauty at night. After all we are in Australia where a lot of life only comes out at night.

Greg.

[strongmanmike]

:stargaze: + :campfire: + :drink: + :astron: + :drink: + :computer: + :drink: + :painting:..?...yeah + more :drink: = :party: (of course, be careful, cause all that = :driving:)

[strongmanmike]

Scotty Alder (Tornado33) made an interesting comment regarding this image on Facebook, that gotta me to a thanking....hmmm? :question:

Scott commented that he would like to see me push my big fast scope to see how deep it can go, hey a bloody great idea :thumbsup:...but then I thought, hmm? I took 10hrs of Luminance data with a 300mm dia scope at a fast F3.8 under reasonably dark skies, so I wonder just how deep I had already managed to go..? :)

So I searched for deep images or even better, quantitative empirical papers on the brightness of some of the faint outer tidal tail regions of NGC 1316. Well low and behold it didn't take long and I found one :D

A paper by E. Iodice et al (https://www.eso.org/public/archives/releases/sciencepapers/eso1734/eso1734a.pdf) from 2017 shed some very interesting light on my enquiry. This paper used deep imaging data from the ESO VLT Survey Telescope (VST) a 2.6m F5.5 modified Ritchey-Chretien optical layout with a two lens wide-field corrector and located at Cerro Paranal in Chile.

In fact this paper revealed that some of the very faintest structures captured in my data were only identified as recently as 2017 and reported in this paper, the faintest of which (labelled L9 in the annotated image at the link below) shine at an almost impossibly feeble 30.1 mag/squ arc sec!! (which is about 2000X fainter than the core region of the galaxy!)...but never the less, still detectable with amateur equipment :eyepop:

So the initial answer to Scotty's question is..well? in 10hrs worth of 10min exposures through my 12" F3.8 Newt, using a modern commercial cooled CCD camera (SXVR-H694) I can (at least) record faint structures with surface brightness's fainter than 30mag/square arc sec!...that's BLOOD FAINT...in this case, so faint in fact, that even for a significant and regularly studied galaxy like NGC 1316, they weren't identified until just 3 years ago! :thumbsup:

Here is the image analysis showing the depth reached (https://pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/171241883/original) (remember to have your screen adjusted (https://pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/55347254/original) properly with brightness turned up as these features are very faint)

A reminder to look deep and carefully into your data, you never know what you might dig up or discover :astron:

Mike

[Geoff45]

Stunning work Mike. Makes me wonder how much other interesting undiscovered stuff there is out there if only we have the patience to go really deep.
Geoff

[strongmanmike]

Hey cheers Geoff, that's right, always worth a look-see :) the pro's are often being quite specific with their targets in terms of what they are looking for, so plenty of really faint stuff isn't always picked up or noticed by them :thumbsup:..in this case had I shot this same data set in say 2016, I might'a perhaps had another discovery under my belt :D..all great fun.

Mike

[tornado33]

Wow that's remarkable stuff indeed. Im so glad I had a part in initiating the big effort!
I just knew when you got such a fast scope and a high quality cooled astro camera that a long imaging session on the one object would show things rarely or never seen before.
Amateur systems might not be able to match the resolution of professional observatories but if one is prepared to spend many hours on one area of sky at a dark site with fast high quality scopes and astro cams, the depth of the image could go beyond what has been imaged before even from professional observatories. Imagine the cost of say, 10 hours on the AAT or Keck. It would be rarely done unless there was a specific observation need. Thus its up to the advanced and dedicated with their own equipment to capture these amazing things. Well done!

[strongmanmike]

Cool, huh Scotty?...cheers mate, thanks for the impetus :D

Mike