Pro-Am Collaboration

[higginsdj]

Hi all,

I'm researching a presentation I am planning to give to next years NACAA on collaborative work between Amateur and Pro Astronomers. I'm not looking for insights as such but I am interested to hear from people as to why amateurs in general can 'talk the talk' but just do not collaborate with the Pros'.

I guess I'm looking for preconceptions from those who would like to participate but don't or from those who have ever thought about it then thought better of it.....

Cheers

[xelasnave]

David I offer my input in an effort to assist.

Preconceptions.
I feel there is no need of us.
I feel that I could not contribute in a meaningful way.
I feel a lack of respect for one with out a degree.
I feel that reporting may be complicated.
I feel that allocated tasks would be boring and repetitive.
I feel it would intrude into “my” astronomy and astro photography.
I feel one may have to incur additional expense.

I have from time to time noticed folk say we can assist and I have thought of putting my hand up.

To place the above in some context for you, I have enjoyed positive thoughts about the experience.

I have outlined all the reasons that have crossed my mind from time to time simply to provide you with one sample.

I hope I help not hinder.
Alex

[higginsdj]

Hi Alex,

You certainly do not hinder. You have taken what I had thought down to a lower level which is excellent in seeing the source and thus enabling the possible resolution of these preconceptions.

Cheers

[higginsdj]

If people would feel more comfortable contacting me directly then please do so at:
higginsdj at bigpond dot com

Cheers

[Gargoyle_Steve]

David I must admit I agree with many of the points Alex made, especially point 3 in that I suspect many "professional" astronomers may not wish to have their professional world intruded upon by amateurs - those who have no relevant degree, and who "have not done their time" as such working their way through University studies and through the professional ranks.
I personally DO think amateurs may have much to contribute - simple current example being Terry Lovejoy and his namesake comet.

I suspect that point 2 (how to contribute in a meaningful way) has some truth as well. I think that should an amateur comes up with something of value to contribute it may attract the interest of some pro's, but that isn't collaboration is it? Collaboration implies planning to work together / share results / etc in advance of the project, not simply using any possible gains afterwards.

I would enjoy the opportunity to get involved in some sort of collaboration, but to be honest I haven't seen any pro astronomers asking for assistance of late.:shrug:

[iceman]

Hi David.

I guess the question that arises in my mind, is, are the pro's asking for help? asking for collaboration? Or is it the amateurs who are knocking on the door of the pros, saying "i've done this, is this helpful" or "how can I help?".

The difference there is, in the latter it's a matter of time - the amateurs time to actually do the research, analysis, etc and then go finding the pros who might be interested in what they've done.

If it was the former, ie: the pros asking for amateurs to assist, they'd probably get a lot more submissions/contributions because the amateurs would know that their work is required and would be valuable - instead of hoping that it might be valuable.

Alex made some very good points as well as to why more amateurs may not take that extra step into doing more scientific work with their astronomy, rather than just observing the sky. A lot of it could simply come down to time. We all lead very busy lives, with work, family etc and a lot of the scientific work is very time-based.. ie: it has to be done at a certain time, or has to be done over a long time. A lot of us probably just can't commit to a schedule like that.

Another factor is equipment. Systematic observations or images may need to be done with moderate to high end equipment with very accurate tracking, perhaps high-end imaging gear, not to mention time spent analysing or processing the data obtained. Those with an observatory are immediately better placed as well, because they don't have the hassle with setup, alignment etc.

Everyone is in this hobby for their own reasons - for some it's just to casually observe the sky and it's wonders, and for others they get more involved, observe every chance they get, others it's for astrophotography and taking pretty pictures, and then for others there's the science aspect of it and how they can contribute to astronomy science. It's a pretty small astronomical community in Australia as it is, and I guess once you divide it into the various groups there's not too many left in that last category.

Personally, I don't have the time to seek out how I could contribute in many of the forms of astronomy science. With a full time job, wife and family with 3 young kids, and a forum :), I don't get a lot of spare time. I know some of the guys are doing great work with occultations and timings etc, and it's an area I could probably contribute with the equipment I have, but again it's a matter of time - I don't have the flexibility to go out observing these events at the time they're on - and it almost always involves travelling, which then takes me away from the family.

For my part, I submit my planetary images to groups like ALPO and the BAA for scientific study - especially of Jupiter. These groups study images from amateurs to analyse the jet streams and other phenomenem and try to work out Jupiter's dynamic atmosphere. They rely on contributions from amateurs because it's so rare for them to get observing time on the large professional telescopes. So I'm happy that in doing what I love, planetary imaging, that I can also contribute in some way to planetary science - a definite area of interest to me.

I hope my thoughts are relevant in some way to the article you're writing. I'll be keen to attend NACAA next year, so I look forward to meeting you there and hearing your presentation!

[Glenn Dawes]

Hi David,

It’s really pleasing to see you raise the ProAm issue and your intention to contribute to NACAA. Having been involved with NACAA for many years and being on the Local Organising Committee for the 2008 convention in Sydney it is near and dear to my heart. I think the reason why amateurs don’t seem to collaborate with the pros is that no one is promoting how this is done or offering training and encouragement. NACAA is an ideal organization to address this issue.

Alex, I think you are holding the wrong end of the stick. The secret to collaborating with professionals is to work within your limits and look to making contributions in areas you feel comfortable with and most importantly ENJOY.
ProAm does not necessarily mean multi $10,000 computer controlled, all singing and dancing, observatories with 20” telescopes. Neither is it necessary to even have CCD capabilities. The 1000’s of amateurs across the world that contribute variable star observations to the AAVSO don’t have or are expected to have university degrees.

Here’s a few examples, starting the list with naked eye activities:
1) Meteor shower monitoring.
2) Aurora (for those lucky to live that far south)
Binocular:
3) Novae Patrol (visual or standard camera).
4) Bright Variable stars (good for beginners).
Telescope – visual or CCD/photographic
5) variable stars
6) Supernovae patrol
7) Transient Lunar phenomena
8) Lunar Occultations and grazes.
9) Comet monitoring
10) Comet hunting
11) Minor planet occultations ($100 webcams are making tremendous contributions here – path predictions are available through the RASNZ)

It is worthwhile noting even though it is true the professional high speed CCD, all sky surveys are now limiting the amateur’s abilities for discovery we are blessed with living in the Southern Hemisphere. Down here the professional surveys are still limited and like us are dictated to by the weather. So when they are clouded out, you never know your luck. Also don’t forget amateurs looking for comets can search closer to the Sun (lower in the twilight) than the professionals are willing to do or are capable of (I’m not counting SOHO here). Here are just a few amateur contributions:
• Bill Liller, in South America, has made dozens of novae and variable star discoveries using what I believe is a normal camera with 70mm lens.
• Bob Evans continues to discover supernovae visually.
• Terry Lovejoy’s latest comet discovery. OK it was with CCD but still an amateur effort.
• It’s only been a few years since Bill Bradfield discovered his last comet (visually)
• Variable stars are an obvious area for contributions. There are no shortage of ProAm bodies such as the RASNZ and AAVSO that will supply lists of stars of interest and charts for monitoring.
• Lunar and minor planet occultations. This is perhaps not as high profile as those above, but there are many amateurs doing this work in Aust and NZ.

Although it is true that in areas 3, 6 & 10 (above) the amateur may eventually be put out of business, the remaining fields will continue to remain open to the dedicated unpaid astronomer.

(so endth the sermon)

Regards to all

Glenn

[xelasnave]

Glen said
Alex, I think you are holding the wrong end of the stick ...

I hoped I was Glen
I knew that would be the case but my attempt was to identify misconceptions by reviewing my negative thought on the matter which I sensed maybe was the concern David was seeking to uncover.

I enjoyed your outline of the correct position and found it very encouraging and thank you for taking the time to provide a view of the realities.
..You can preach to this audience anytime you like truth is always a delight to enjoy.
I have learnt so much from your post thanks again.
alex

[xelasnave]

The question I was going to ask after I read Mikes post and perhaps goes to the heart of the matter at least for me is... where is our help needed.. what specific areas have a shortfall of contributers... are there professionals over worked that we can assist.
My motivation is one of helping rather than anything else and that was probably the strongest feeling..how could little old me help?
alex

[higginsdj]

OOoooo I love all these preconceptions :-)

1. The Pro's aren't asking.
2. Pro's dont' want Amateurs intruding - this is an interesting one - 2 aspects to consider for this one.
3. Got to prove oneself (Not a preconception - this ones a reality)
4. Do the work then find the Pro - An interesting approach - not recommended for beginners to collaboration. It is actually done (and funded) for the experienced who have "proven their worth".
5. Amateurs would rather observe the sky rather than contribute to scientific work (interesting point - what is it about scientific work that is considered not observing the sky? - not a rhetorical question)
6. Scientific work is very time intensive. If you haven't' done it - how do you know? (not a rhetorical question)
7. Scientific work is schedule based - and it's a strict schedule.
8. Need to have moderate or high end equipment. If you haven't' done it - how do you know what equipment is required? (not a rhetorical question)
9. Its a hassle setting up if you don't have an observatory. So do you use your equipment?
10. Pro Surveys are limiting opportunities.
11. A lack of understanding of what it means to collaborate with the professional community.

I'd like to immediately address points 10 and 11.

Surveys take images for a given purpose. At best they will cover part of the sky each night and the entire sky over a period of days or weeks. This is fine for some type of work but certainly doesn't cover the needs of the majority of work. How about variable stars with short periods for example? Minor Planet Physcial Studies (ie lightcurves), any type of transient event, monitoring Sn's and Novae, hunting/confirming Extra solar planets. Surveys are just that - a survey - there is no detail.

Point 11 is an interesting one. Collaboration may imply to many participation on an equal standing but for the most part amateurs will be members of the observing arm of the collaboration and not the "scientific" arm. There are exceptions of course and it is a matter of proving yourself in the given field (the recent YORP paper in Nature is a prime example - the first reference used by the author was to the work of an amateur). This of course does not mean boring data collection and no analysis etc but it does mean that you don't try to second guess the Pro's (or argue with them) ie you need to learn and you need to know your place int he team.

The biggest 'fear' for the Pro is that their work is degraded by poor quality data or that too much of their time is spent in bringing the amateur up to speed. This really becomes the joint task of those amateurs leading the field with the finishing touches provided by the Pro's. Also it's not a matter that the Pro's are over worked. In the majority of cases it is a lack of quality data that is the problem.

Cheers

[rogerg]

I have always held the ideal in mind that pro astronomers do on the whole appreciate input from amateur astronomers. However I have never seen much evidence either way.

Back when I was on the MPML list I'm pretty sure there was a lot of talk about it there, I remember reading through a website which helped facilitate proAm collaboration by providing a link between pro projects and amateur resources.

However I doubt I'd ever realistically be able to provide meaningful assistance to a pro by anything more than chance or carrying a cup of coffee.

I once recorded the occultation of a 15th mag star by Pluto/Charon, because there was talk of that information being useful to pluto probe missions. However when it came to finding a pro interested the trail ran dry. I exchanged 2 emails with a person in the US who was writing papers on the occultations but that just died for no apparent reason - no responses to my emails after initially encouraging discussions. I suspect that person considered it just too hard to work with me - I didn't understand a couple of things they'd said already and we were only 2 emails in to the discussion! If I were them I'd have been thinking it wouldn't be worth continuing to get my data.

I'd love to think what I am now taking photo's of could be used to some purpose but I doubt it'd ever happen. What would a pro want with amateur images of faint galaxy clusters?

I don't think it's a problem with the equipment, that is up to scratch, but it's a problem with the amateur's dedication, knowledge (general astronomy and specific to the subect) and perhaps also the problem of pro finding suitable amateur or vis-versa.

[jjjnettie]

Most Amateurs are observers only. It is only a minority that go on to specialize in a particular field and it's an even smaller percentage that become truely skillful in their chosen field.
But it is these few that contribute greatly, as mentioned earlier, to AAVSO, comet hunting etc etc.
The Pro's must find such people invaluable resources.

[astroron]

At Astrofest 2006 the guest speaker Dr Brian Schmidt was looking for amateur astronomers with medium sized telescopes and CCD imaging capabilities to be involved in a Gama Ray observing program, Peter Marples and Greg Bock have joined him in this program.
I am involved in a Supernova search as are the two above mentioned observers, if we discover one the information is of use to the scientific community

[higginsdj]

Looks like one of the biggest preconceptions appears to be apparent need to work with the Pro at their level!

All those currently working with Pros or Pro groups are first and foremost - Observers. For the purpose of the work they do with the Pro this may be the collection of data in a specific field but this does not limit the observer to just that field ie our images contain lots of data about lots of other objects.

Note also that the 'skill' you refer to is not to a specific field in astronomy but to a specific method ie Astrometry, photometry, spectroscopy etc. These methods apply across numerous fields and it is the observers proficiency in these methods that are highly sought after.

Cheers

[DobDobDob]

Hi gang, I had this story in another thread because it deals with Binary asteroids, however part of the story is very complimentary to amateur astronomers and their impact on professional astronomers, so here is the link:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070329145626.htm

[higginsdj]

But the press only care when the big boys are involved. Here we see several of the largest telescopes in the world (plus many amateurs) discovering 1 Binary Asteroid.

Over the same period of time, several of the worlds smaller pro scopes - the 1 metre class - (plus a few amateurs) have discovered more than 20! (the BinAstPhotSurvey and CdR&CdL teams)

Cheers

[fringe_dweller]

the only experience i have directly, other than years of sporadic comet monitoring and imaging of bright comets, meteor counts/observing, and aurora monitoring/imaging reports submitted to public sites.
was our brush's with the Ulysses Comet Watch (they are interested in ion tail directions, length and anomalies, as they reflect/trace out the suns activity/solar wind, like ink in water as they described it once, particularly our series's of images of comet WM1 in early 2002, as we had some of the only pics of the comet during the period before it's famous outburst. And it was during the surprise second peak of the solar max and the comet was in a unique position above the southern pole of the sun, and we did indeed capture a tail disconnection event, the only ones to do so :)

http://www.fg-kometen.de/00wm1cfo.html

the highlight was probaly exchanging emails with a certain very nice and happy Jack Brandt!

we contributed also with a pic of V1 later on, as we clearly had the ion tail (widefield) - i assume with the advent of STEREO that we southerners may not be needed so much in this area any longer?

[fringe_dweller]

Glenn, you have to add extra-solar planet detection to that list these days, would you not?
I remember a thread about some amateur Kiwi's discovering? or confirming one? or is that quite common these days?

[fringe_dweller]

accidental discoveries? - do they count as pro-am? how about variable nebula monitoring and discoveries? ie McNeil's Nebula

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040219.html

- several aussies also caught that one, Paul Haese comes to mind

[ving]

well speaking for myself and not the community as a whole... I lack the experience, knowledge and know how to really help in my opinion :)

lol, but then i dont consider myself an amatuer astronomer, just a casual star gazer with an interest in binaries :)

but hey, thats just me. there are a stack of people here that could help out the pros but i doubt they know what the pros want, so they do thier own thing and either find something new or stumble across it. :)

[higginsdj]

That would be Jennie McCormick of Farm Cove Observatory near Auckland. She was one of the observers in the Microfun team that discovered it. I'm a member of that same team now and maybe one day I'll be lucky enough to score one.

There are very few amateurs observing extra solar planets via Gravitational Microlensing but there are a few doing followup photometry via the Transitsearch team.

Again - there is no reason why amateurs can dive into this work from an observing perspective - neither observing effort takes rocket science - just confidence in your equipment and a good observing ethic!

Cheers

[fringe_dweller]

ah thats the one David, thanks!

one factor, and its not critical in all area's of course, is that maybe 80+% of aussie amateur astronomers live in light polluted to very light polluted locations, I know this to be at least a problem re *proper* comet and meteor, aurorae visual obs. and the LP and urban sprawl just gets worse everyyear of course, and we have to undertake ever further drives to escape it. Its the country people in the box seat for all this stuff, but they seem to care the least??? *generally speaking* and IMO - to busy just surviving maybe?

[higginsdj]

Light pollution may be an issue for some visual observations but I live in and observe from Canberra Suburbia as does several other ProAm collaborators and it's not a huge factor for the type of work we do:

Minor Planet Photometry
Minor Planet Astrometry
Planetary Moon Astrometry
Occultation (Lunar and Asteroidal)
Sky Survey (Comet, Nova and Variable Star hunting)
Supernovae Search
Planetary Imaging
Stellar Photometry (Variable Stars and Extra Solar planets)

The list could probably go on. Yes I'm on the outskirts of Canberra but the others aren't! The point is, you do what you can.

Cheers

[fringe_dweller]

I did allude that I was aware that it isnt critical in many area's David :) just the ones I am interested in.
I dont want to go off topic, but waay back, when I was a very active visual planetary observer, I always thought that even the planets were much better when viewed from under dark and dust particle pollutant and heatsink conditions free country skies, colours in particular were better. not that that has anything to do with this subject, just an observation.
My former longtime residence was also a edge of suburbia type location, and altho i'm still not in the city exactly now, I fnd here its a loooong way from what I had with that previous backyard.
Also i fear that no-one will say an obvious reason why they dont get into pro-am, is it is that dreaded four letter word - W-O-R-K, and unpaid at that, I suspect that for most AA's, their time out under the stars is escape and release from W-O-R-K and daily presures (exept for imagers of all kinds LOL ;) ) thats it in a nutshell really?
cheers

[higginsdj]

LOL, but thats where an automated observatory comes into its own ;) (and when is a hobby ever work :-) )

I work full time+ and have the observatory open 1000+ hrs a year - and I don't lose any sleep. Technology is opening up so many opportunities to the amateur these days.

Cheers

[rogerg]

Agreed, automation works wonders for achieving more astronomy for you available time. I still hit the limit though of having enough time to script the automation and process the resulting images. It's often hard to find enough time to build enough scripts to automate enough nights to take advantage of the clear nights.

Perhaps that just means I need better automation - automate some of the scripting and automate some of the processing :)

[higginsdj]

I guess it depends on the automation software and your targets. I have predefined scripts that run Plans for my variable stars and my SN work. For my Minor Planets those targets change weekly and takes 30 seconds to change the MP number from one to the next (autolookup out of MPCORB.dat). For the adhocs - just a modified Minor Planet plan to a name and co-ordinate. The software takes care of everything else!

Of course the data processing takes time. the 60-80 variables from a session take about 4-5 hrs to reduce. Each Minor Planet target takes about 15 minutes for each session and the others just use 1 or 2 scripts to calibrate then either mail off (Microfun) or sit and compare to dss images (about 30 seconds per target). Variables are the most time consuming and they are limited to 1 set per month (when the Moon doesn't allow me to do my MP photometry). The rest takes up an average of 2 hours per week....

Note that I use ACP4 for my automation.

Cheers

David

[rogerg]

I suppose most of my problem comes from the type of targets I'm trying for. It takes me something like 30 mins - an hour to look through TheSky and find a field of galaxies I like the look of. Copying, pasting & then altering a script takes another 10min or so.

Relating back to the thread topic, my targets aren't useful for pro-am collaboration where as yours are. So perhaps for the purpose of pro-am collaboration automation tools are sufficient to significantly cut scripting & processing (to a lesser extent the latter).

I haven't looked in to ACP4, but just found their site, the buy page, and figure I'll avoid it and stick to CCD Commander for now, save my pennies. But I do appreciate that the cost is possibly offset by time savings.

[higginsdj]

Also note that there are various flavours of ACP4. I have the basic license - single user, non web.

[rogerg]

Something else that significantly slows me down is the small size of my imaging chip and my guide chip. I either have to be very confident of the field or do a test-run of scripted objects to ensure there will be a suitable guide star available. I can't not have one for 20 - 40 min exposures and if I get it wrong the night's a waste because it fails and then parks for the rest of the night :(

Hmm. Anyway.

Re price of automation software, yes, $349 I think it was, is quite affordable for such a setup. Still, in contrast I think I paid $50 for CCD Commander. I expect you get what you pay for.

[higginsdj]

My setup is more predictable. The 14" SCT is operated at f/4 with an ST-8E and a Meade f/3.3 FR (at f/10 for MicroFun targets). Attached is a 4" SCT operating at f/6.3 with a Starlight Xpress MX716 used as a guider.

The Guider has enough resolution and light gathering to always get a guide star and the ST-8E fov is always big enough to have a near perfect plate solve (it has a hick-up ever now and then) to synch and repoint to center the target.

Even with 120" PE (reduced to ~20" with PEC) at f/10 I can mostly get round stars at up to 300 second integrations (but I prefer to stack shorter, 120 second integrations just to make sure and not waste any images)

Cheers

[fringe_dweller]

:lol: Yes but its work (and money) to get to that point of automation isnt it?

I have nothing but the upmost respect and admiration for AA's like yourself David, that are giving it a red hot go :thumbsup: In another life maybe i would give it go, but not this one unfortunately. Meanwhile I will just enjoy reading about ect., and observing/admiring some of the discoveries from the advanced amateurs :thumbsup:
regards

[higginsdj]

7 years ago when I first started astronomy, I bought a Tasco 114mm reflector - it's all I could afford. Not long after I was eyeing off all the goto scopes thinking I would never be able to buy one (I didn't even know about CCD cameras back then) - I'm now 4 goto scopes on from there...... (and still married :lol: )

It's interesting what events and opportunities can transpire when one takes a step down a certain path... The impossible sometimes becomes possible :)

Right now I am eyeballing a Meade 20" RCX on a MaxMount with a 2kx2k Back illuminated AP camera (about $50-$60K) At this point its way out of my league - but who knows, there might be some kind benefactor out there :D.

Cheers