Ancient unknown civilizations

[xelasnave]

I have been looking at the possiblity of there being a civilization that was wiped out approx 11000 years ago due to a massive sea level rise caused by a possible cosmic impact in North American.
The interesting thing is so many cultures have in their history a great flood. And although it is probable that any flood was not like the biblical flood it certainly seems from the ice cores a sea level rise of 30 feet within 24 hours did occur followed by a further rise of 400 feet over the following year or two...that could hide an earlier civilization ..if that happened to us it would mean places like New York and London would be 400 feet under water and covered by heaps of silt for folk looking 10,000 years from now.
So have you looked at this proposition at all...
The proposal is that a comet hit North America and that caused the sea to rise..there is a possible crator but as it is under a lot of ice they have not dated it as yet..but if that crator is dated at approx 12000 years ago it is clear that our history is different to that we have believed.
Have you looked at the possibility that a civilization existed and wiped out 12000 years ago.
It certainly seems most cultures talk of a flood which may suggest there is something to the findings of a dramatic sea level rise.
If the crator turns out to be 12000 years old will put history need to be rewritten?
Alex

[billdan]

There is the story of the Lost City of Atlantis, but I think that's fictional and not based on fact.

[LewisM]

It's all a myth. Humans can't be civilised.

[xelasnave]

Yes ...the story was told by Plato who apparently was told by one of his ancestors and I think he had it that the story was handed down over many generations and originally came from an Eygptian priest.

There are folk who think of Atlantis as an island that went under the sea..regarding it from myth to fact … but there are others who use the term Atlantians to loosely describe what they believe was a world wide somewhat advanced civilization that was wiped out by the supposed comet impact of approx. 12000 years ago.


There is a great deal of material on the net and I find it most interesting and certainly has me wondering if there could have been a civilization that is now hidden mostly by 400 feet of water and 10,000 odd years of fading away.


Most of this stuff was considered rat bag but there was a paper in Nature of all places that perhaps took the matter to another level.


I will try and find a reasonable vid from youtube and post it..the one I am thinking of is not too bad ..although as with most of these things folk get a little too heavily invested and can make little leaps where they really should not.


Even if the comet crator they have found fits the time line these folk follow more evidence is needed to establish the ancient civilization aspect.


One common feature of those views is that both the Sphinx and the Pyramids were not built by the Eygptians and that they merely took them over at some stage. And on this aspect it is interesting that the Eygiptians made no recording of them building the Pyramids...and also that notwithstanding common belief that they were tombs it seems no bobies have been found in any pyramid...the tombs are from the valley of the Kings ..


The proposition has been put forward that the Sphinx is some 12000 years old and that is because the water erosion at the sides of the enclosure could only have occurred when the climate was such that the rain would provided the water necessary to effect the erosion observed.


I find it all very interesting now that I have looked at many videos and sifted through what is hard evidence and what is supposition.


I do think the fact most cultures have a big flood story is interesting and if there was a flood it may be the sea level rise apparently recorded in the ice cores.


alex

Younger Dryas impact hypothesis
The Younger Dryas impact hypothesis or Clovis comet hypothesis posits that fragments of a large (more than 4 kilometers in diameter), disintegrating asteroid or comet struck North America, South America, Europe, and western Asia about 12,800 years ago. Multiple airbursts/impacts produced the Younger Dryas (YD) boundary layer (YDB), depositing peak concentrations of platinum, high-temperature spherules, meltglass, and nanodiamonds, forming an isochronous datum at more than 50 sites across about 50 million km² of Earth’s surface. Some scientists have proposed that this event triggered extensive biomass burning, a brief impact winter, the Younger Dryas abrupt climate change, contributed to extinctions of late Pleistocene megafauna, and resulted in the end of the Clovis culture.
Younger Dryas impact hypothesis - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis
Data from: Wikipedia

from NASA

The Hiawatha impact crater was first suspected to exist in the summer of 2015, from examination of a compilation of Greenland's sub-ice topography radar measurements made by NASA over two decades. The visualizations of the subsurface shown below are derived from a spring 2016 airborne survey by Germany's Alfred Wegener Institute, using a new ultrawideband radar sounder developed by the Center for Remote Sensing of Ice Sheets at The University of Kansas. Subsequent helicopter visits to the deglaciated terrain in front of Hiawatha Glacier by scientists from the Natural History Museum in Denmark recovered sediment samples from the main river that discharges water from beneath Hiawatha Glacier, through the northwestern rim breach. Laboratory examination revealed that these sediment samples contained shocked quartz and elevated platinum-group-element concentrations, both signs that the sediment records evidence of the impact of an iron asteroid more than one kilometer wide. The Hiawatha impact crater is potentially one of the youngest large impact craters on Earth.


alex

[mynameiscd]

Yeah i was going to say Atlantis too. Stories about Noahs flood and Atlantis must have come from somewhere. Even Japanese history talks about an underwater city.
The last ice age when there was a land bridge from Indonesia to Tasmaina and also one across the bearing straight between Asia and Europe and Americas.
This ice age ended around 10000 to 11000 years ago which the sea levels would have risen to their current levels give or take 10m or so.
So these stories of instant floods and sunken cities may have happened over many years but got translated to folklore.
Also this may explain where the Jewish people came from. A large migration of people coming from Northern Europe to a warmer equatorial region and over many years.
These people would look different and have totally diferent cultures but eventually settled in the area. Fast forward thousands of years and it might explain a few things about why these people have been persicuted for thousands of years and have been called "a wondering tribe" etc.
The Americas have been populated from Asia over 3 main ice ages.
The first populaion wave about 40000 years ago ended up in South America and are Incas, Astecs, and the current indigenous people that are still there today.
The second wave when Europe and Asia was freezing over came over around 20000 years ago and have settled in North America and are the American indians.
The Last population wave when a not so dramatic ice age came about 10000 are the Eskimo which have still asian similarities.
Then we have Australia and New Guinea which definitely have 3 distinct races of people but with similar DNA but only little pices of written history that we know about. Hopefully we havent fully destroyed the history of the aboriginal people that goes well past 40000 years but we are doing a good job if it and not understanding it.
We will never really know but human DNA is a pretty good indicator.
Anyway im only telling what ive learnt at school so could be wrong but it does make sense.
Cheers
Andy

[xelasnave]

Here is a reasonable video..he does get a little distracted mid way through but like most things on youtube it is an production made by a guy with limited resources...but if you have the time...

https://binged.it/2KOBX4E


alex



Thanks for your contribution Andy.

Something I noticed the other day and did not follow up..which I regret now...but apparently dna tests link Australian Aboriginals to South America..which is something I have never heard of...so I must follow up on that.

If you look at the Sumerians history you can form the impression that survivors of the supposed sea level rise were the gods they refer to ..or at least these survivors were seen as such...interestingly they lived in the garden of eden or paradice which translates to "where the animals are kept"...


There is a underwater city in India that I understand the government stopped research on because it threatened to cut across popula history.


alex

AND this...the implication can only be that agriculture started well before popular history suggests as it would be near impossible for hunter gathers to build this....from wiki...

Göbekli Tepe (Turkish: [ɟœbecˈli teˈpe],[1] Turkish for "Potbelly Hill")[2] is an archaeological site in the Southeastern Anatolia Region of Turkey approximately 12 km (7 mi) northeast of the city of Şanlıurfa. The tell has a height of 15 m (49 ft) and is about 300 m (980 ft) in diameter.[3] It is approximately 760 m (2,490 ft) above sea level.
The tell includes two phases of use, believed to be of a social or ritual nature by site discoverer and excavator Klaus Schmidt, dating back to the 10th–8th millennium BCE.[4] During the first phase, belonging to the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (PPNA), circles of massive T-shaped stone pillars were erected – the world's oldest known megaliths.[5]
More than 200 pillars in about 20 circles are currently known through geophysical surveys. Each pillar has a height of up to 6 m (20 ft) and weighs up to 10 tons. They are fitted into sockets that were hewn out of the bedrock.[6] In the second phase, belonging to the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB), the erected pillars are smaller and stood in rectangular rooms with floors of polished lime. The site was abandoned after the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB). Younger structures date to classical times.
The details of the structure's function remain a mystery. It was partially excavated by a German archaeological team under the direction of Schmidt from 1996 until his death in 2014. In 2018, the site was designated a UNESCO World Heritage Site.[7]

alex



Many a true word spoken in jest.
alex

and re Aboriginal link to South America ..a lead...needs more work.
https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national/2015/07/22/discovery-change-view-human-history/

alex

This guy is disliked by mainstream and this video perhaps demonstrates why.

https://youtu.be/cYbe154a6C8

Alex

[Startrek]

Alex
My skin cancer guy , Dr Phil Flambas wrote a book about the lost city of Atlantis I think about 5 years ago
He’s into Greek history , Greek philosophers and Paintings etc...
I don’t have a link but type his name in and his profile will come up
Maybe check it out
Martin

[AstralTraveller]

FMD another conspiracy theory! And about as convincing as the fake moon landing.


After I got the drift I skipped ahead to a random point and the first thing he said was total BS. Either I got 'lucky' or the stuff is easy to find on that video.

[leon]

Gee Alex you are a fascinating fella, with some great talent and great history telling stories.
You are probably right to an extent, so where do we start looking for this hidden treasures. :shrug:

Leon :thumbsup:

[xelasnave]

What did you think was BS specifically?

Do you think he is wrong about there being humans in America before the Clovis people is wrong...if you saw that part. I don't know that's why I ask.
Alex



The story isn't mine Leon.
I am not sure what the story is other than folk into the possible earlier civilization idea are convinced a comet hit North America approx 12000 years ago causing much ice to melt instantly and causing sea levels to rise by 30 feet world wide within 24 hours (their claim is such a rise is found in the ice cores) and another 400 odd feet rise over the next year (or so)...They say it was this event that saw the disappearance of the Mega fauna.. mainstream has it that the mega fauna disappearance was due to humans hunting them to extinction...to me that sounds implausible given we have not hunted stuff to the extinction like bears lions elephants giraffes etc ..presumably there were less people and without our ability to kill...so I find a comet much more plausible.
Anyways it was this rise in sea levels that took out an earlier civilization.
Evidence for the earlier civilization is the unexplainable megaliths found world wide such as the pregnant woman megalith some 1000 to 1500 tons and the use of such huge stones in a nearby temple...also the rich work found world wide such as that in Peru where the earlier work is more sophisticated that stuff on top the presumption being that folk like the Incas for example inherited ruins which they added to..Hench the difference in ruff work following exceptional work.

When the hypothesis that the dinosaurs were killed by a comet impact was first presented it was rejected in much the same way as this current idea. There is various things that can be seen to support the currently unfavourable idea ..however if the crator referred to above proves to be the correct age I doubt anyone can continue to say it just did not happen.

As I indicated earlier these ideas are put forward by non mainstream and the response is predictable and certainly some get carried away with wild ideas but for me sifting through the stuff and eliminating that which is probably BS a picture arises which certainly does not fit mainstream...that site in Turkey does however show that the idea that agriculture started only 5000 odd years ago is almost certainly incorrect simply because a hunter gather culture does not have the time to do that sort of thing...it is most curious.
I do think that these alternate ideas cause problems for certain beliefs and therefore the idea of a comet hit is dismissed without proper analysis. And folk like Handcock..who is a bit out there... are sought to be discredited...for me a lot of it adds up ..but then I have no desire for any particular outcome so am impartial.
You will see the emotional reactions to this stuff which suggests a predetermined view point consistent with a particular view of the world.
It is interesting that the crator NASA discovered is pretty well found where folk like Handcock predicted the comet of their story would be found.
Same when the initial hypothesis re the dinosaurs being wiped out via a comet..the opponent's said..yeh but there is no crator..if there was a comet that big there would be a crator...well they found the crator responsible for the dinasoirs extinction...the one NASA found just needs to be dated...if 12000 years ago the proposition of an earlier lost civilization becomes much more solid.
I would imagine the opposition could have something to do with folks ideas about a biblical type flood as opposed to a sea level rise..however there are many cultures that have their flood story so whatever way you approach the matter it seems there was a flood of some kind .it then becomes a matter of finding a plausible explanation for such an event..it would seem that there would be more opportunity for it to be a natural as opposed to a supernatural event.

Anyways Leon if you care to look at the videos I have posted here and perhaps take the time to watch all the way thru without going in with a preconception that you already know the facts you will at least find the subject of some interest I hope.
Alex

Alex

If you do the math for the great pyramid for example it seems rather improbable that it was built in twenty years for example...I took the time to work it out and you find something like 10 blocks an hour 24/7 for twenty years. Irrespective of how many labourers it gets to a matter that they could not all fit on the work site...and my sums don't take into account the time to build the chambers.. all I am getting at is the presumption is that it was built for a certain king for his tomb and that is where they get the twenty years...but no Dody was found in it..there is a stone box which some think was a coffin but that is a mere guess with out evidence to support such a proposal...anyways all the king's were buried in the valley of the king's and no body has been found in a pyramid...so one must wonder why it that the popular belief...and I do think it is very odd that the Eygptians left notes on everything..how to make bread and beer...but there is nothing whatsoever where they say they were building these things.
And some of the rock work defies an explanation that they used copper tools...just try and do what they are supposed to have done on the materials like pink granite etc and see how far you get with a bronze chisel.
The point is there are enough inconsistencies to make one think...most folk don't and simply buy whatever explanation they hear...but for me I do think the story we are told does not add up or fit many observations.
Alex

Leon have a look at this.
https://youtu.be/0la8txUkgUM
Alex



Leon I realised that I did not actually answer your question as to where to start looking.

My view is that any civilization would be concentrated around the mouths of rivers in much the same way that we notice today.


So the place to really look would be where rivers met the sea when sea levels were at the pre sea rise event..that appears to be some 400 feet...I have not been able to check the ice cores data which is relied upon to determine the rise but for the moment lets us assume the story that sea levels rose by 400 odd feet...It would be in these regions that one may expect to find something...of course any ruins would be well covered with the silt build up of some 12000 years but I would imagine if there was anyone around the main body of people and buildings would be in similar situations to where we place our cities and populations today.


It would be hard to find stuff no doubt..at 30 foot rise in twenty four hours probably would not have been a mild none destructive event and so one could expect massive damage ..think of the devestation in Japan and other places when the water came rushing in...


Imagine if today we were subject to such a disaster..would you find New York or London or LA or just so many of our biggest cities in 12000 years from now..and what was left would be taken over by those who survived...we may be looking at their building in the pyramids for example but as others have moved in you would not think of someone earlier....


I recall that the Dogger Bank was at one point above sea level and thye have found evidence of human occupation.. I must look into when it went under...but there we have a case where it is so hard to imagine that once folk lived where now all we find is open sea.


Make sure you look at that last video..its short but I suspect will get you wondering.


How are the hickups?


alex

Also for everyone and slightly off topic..check out the underground cities in Turkey...capable of housing 20,000 people..joined to another similar cities via a five mile long tunnel...these went down many levels eight I recall..maybe more..cut out of the bedrock..they had places for animals even...they go down some 200 feet underground.

Why they went underground no one knows but folk who believe the Earth was subject to comet bombardment think they went underground because the sky was falling...there are a lot of nutter videos and I tried to get a decent link but could not find something that just talked about the facts..their size etc and leave out their speculation.But there is a wiki entry I think...
but they were something that I had never heard about until about six months ago and they are simply unbelievable and I have no idea why you don't hear more about them..I do not know when they are are dated..but please check them out as they will blow you away.

alex

In the USA there are interesting features known as the Carolina Bays and this video links their formation with the comet impact referred to in the material above. https://binged.it/2MlQKHf
alex

[xelasnave]

Re Clovis people's. This somewhat vindicates some of Hancock's comments in the earlier video.

From Wiki...

The "Clovis first theory" refers to the 1950s hypothesis that the Clovis culture represents the earliest human presence in the Americas, beginning about 13,000 years ago; evidence of pre-Clovis cultures has accumulated since 2000, pushing back the possible date of the first peopling of the Americas to about 13,200–15,500 years ago.

Alex

The hypothesis re comet impact is that the sudden disappearance of the Clovis people was a direct result of the comet impact referred to throughout this thread.
Alex

Here is a short video supportive of Hancocks claims that
mainstream is/was wrong about the earliest humans in America.
I took the time to look at the video again, the one that David paralleled to a Moon hoax status...I can only think David was being sarcastic as there is nothing in that video to put it in the Moon hoax class and perhaps David saying he did not bother to look at all of it was the ultimate sarcasm directed at folk who have a view point that they protect be refusing to look at any evidence that may threaten their position of belief.

If it was sarcasm I say brilliant ...if not perhaps others who actually watch the video may care to comment upon it...not this one but the one on the first page where David said it was no better than Moon hoax stuff. This one here is one that is interesting from the point of view that much work is being done which just keeps pushing the dates back.
https://youtu.be/y_7JJ0YP9Es

I have been looking to find what work is being done to establish the age of the suspected impact crator in Greenland...so far it seems no one is drilling thru the ice to date this thing...also I am on the track of yet another "young" crator site I think about 100 miles from the first one...multiple crators would be good to determine if there is more to the story...some folk into this have predicted multiple crators so it will be interesting if these folk deemed ratbags will be proved right



Alex

And for some balance from Climate.org


Among our reasons for skepticism (again, see our earlier post on this) there is a basic statistical problem. The problem is — and this context is missing from most if not all of the articles we’ve seen on this — that explaining the Younger Dryas in terms of an impact leaves all the other rapid climate change events (the so-called “Dansgaard-Oeschger events”) of the last glacial period unexplained.* One would have to either accept the conventional ideas for the causes of these events, or, alternatively, one would have to propose that there was an impact not only before the Younger Dryas, but before each of the earlier events....end of selected section of article.

The above raises an interesting point which is the prospect that impacts are relatively common.

If you look at the graphs you will see the fluctuations of the Younger Dead are really the same as many before it...certainly the question arises that must be ...why..

Alex

https://youtu.be/1MKyJyNIklg

Another bid re pre Clovis and a guy actually saying he did not look past a certain level because he believed he would find nothing.

And I sense the general refusal of folk to take the prospect of a comet impact seriously or to even look at the evidence, and there is considerable evidence other than the new possible impact site found in a strata with stuff associated with something no terrestrial.
If you are interested you may care to look but clearly there are those who don't care, and those who perhaps don't want a different version of history.

I find it all most interesting of course.

And I get the feeling that world shattering impacts may be somewhat the norm.

I guess our managers don't want us to be concerned with the prospect of destruction ... But one only has to look at various events which suggest there is probably more stuff still flying about than we would like to admit.
Thank goodness NASA has increased its budget to list the objects that may pose a threat...also maybe our managers want us to fear other things that they claim they can manage...and certainly folk may not be so happy if the prospect of possible hits were shown to be somewhat inevitable.

Anyways I hope those who have followed this thread have been entertained and hopefully informed.
Alex

[dikman]

Regarding the demise of the Megafauna, sometime ago I saw a documentary called "Death of the Megafauna" (it's on DVD, your local library may have a copy). Up to then the commonly held belief was that the Megafauna (marsupial lion, giant kangaroo etc etc) were wiped out due to the arrival of the aborigines to Australia and were hunted to extinction. Someone eventually crunched some numbers and came to the conclusion that it didn't add up.


Archaeologists started seeing signs of heavy burning at the same stratified levels as the animal bones and eventually came to the conclusion that they disappeared due to the aboriginals habit of burning off the land which changed the climate of the country. Prior to their arrival it appears the country had far more greenery and dense growth, but constant, uncontrolled burning slowly killed off many plant species and only those that could survive burning were left.


It makes sense to me.

[xelasnave]

Thank you for joining in Richard.
I still find it hard to accept that humans could cause any harm:D

You may find this interesting

https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/feb/26/drying-out-of-vast-inland-lakes-may-have-caused-australias-megafauna-extinction

I do think the key to the various propositions we are presented with is to listen but not to become invested in a particular idea.
I was just saying to my father that I don't care if there was an ancient civilization or not and if the Eygptians did or did not build the pyramids...what is clear however most folk form an opinion and of course thereafter that opinion becomes fact as it were...when one studies the various ideas that at one time were seen as fact only to be cast out at some later point I think forming a rock solid opinion has no merit...and certainly closes the door on what clearly explains everything which of course is ALIENS...:P...when you look around at what people can believe in I think it is perhaps best not to be too critical of their views no matter how strange they could appear ...from the Desiderata..listen to the full and the ignorant for they too have their story...that means listen to me of course..but no the whole thing with the Desiderata is a message of I suppose non commitale and to remain calm and somewhat neutral.

Thanks again for your input as it caused me to have a look at the material on Australian mega fauna generally..and I expect that is how I will spend the afternoon as it is a most interesting subject.
Alex

[dikman]

Very interesting. It's sheer co-incidence, of course, that this extinction coincided with the arrival of the aboriginals.:whistle:


Lately I have been reading such little gems as "the aboriginals have the oldest evolving culture in the world", they practiced controlled burning to manage the land, developed complex aquaculture farming methods etc.


Make of that what you will.......



And yes, of course it was aliens who built the pyramids etc, I thought everyone knew that.;)

[xelasnave]

The aspect I thought was interesting is the different conclusions reached by folk ..I mean competing scientists.


I bet volcanic erruptions are possibly a cause..when you look at how erruptions have influenced history they would be the first thig to investigate..I have read proposals of how a volcanic eruption was in effect indirectly responsible for the French revolution..it effected the climate caused crop failures etc creating a unhappy world etc...anyways that is not the only link with volcanoes...


The problem when you get into history on the net is it seems every second idiot is proposing ALIENS...sure they out there but I bet they have never visited Earth...I mean it is probable that other life exists in the Universe and possibly intelligent life but the distances and the ruling physics says no one is going anywhere even close...our closest star...I have heard estimates of 100,000 years plus to get there..you only have to do some sums.. ... so that sort of space travel is beyond my imagination.


One thing is...irrespective of who actually built the pyramids or cut out the massive megalith known as the pregnant woman etc I find it extraordinary that anyone could do such things or why they would want to... I do think they must have had tools we are not aware of ..being absent from the historical record... using bronze tools seems unacceptable..I do think in the past they may have used tools with diamond (or similar hard gems)cutting edges..they would have to have had something like that...nevertheless some of the workmanship is probably not easy to do these days..certainly funding a pyramid build would not be easy...unless in Dubia:D.

I do think the estimate of 20 years for the great pyramid just can not be correct...20 years is seized upon as the reign of the king at that time and that is on the basis they were for tombs..anyways if they could lay 10 plus blocks an hour for twenty years ..every hour of every day..non stop twenty years...as I said I doubt if you could fit the necessary work force on the job site..actually that's what I will do later..work out the number of workers per square meter … so many per block etc area of the place...mmm good one for dropping off to sleep..I will save it for then.

But one thing that seems clear is that the pyramids were not tombs if what we find is to be taken as a reasonable indicator... why that is popular conception is odd I find.

alex

[mynameiscd]

Recently lake Condah in south western Victoria has been added to the world heritage list as on of the ealiest man made stuctures in thd world.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-06/indigenous-site-joins-pyramids-stonehenge-world-heritage-list/11271804
Some of the eel traps and stone stuctures are well over 6000 years.
We have so much ancient history here in Australia but we normally just walk over it and build on too of it.
Whilst working on a 1860s "Chinese built"woolshed ive discovered that the local aborigines help build the stone shed not the Chinese who were on their way to the goldfields about 8 years earlier.
At the same time the first aboriginal 11 cricket team went to England from this area and included workers on the station where this woolshed is built.
After the end the decade there was cultural and physical genocide with the last of the indigenous population rounded up into missions and the last of the ancient stone stuctures around the west wimmera destroyed. Luckily some the Budu Bin site was not completely destroyed but ive found old 1850s drawings that show about 30 or more stone huts and a whole eel trap system that was then drained for farmland and the aborigines kicked off.
Years later a nicer stories came to be about with the chinese on the way to goldfields built it or chinamans well etc.
History has been rewitten in such a short time (about 150 years), it could be plausible that an earlier civilization had been in the Americas 11000 years before.
Cheers
Andy

[LostInSp_ce]

Alex, it seems like you need a dose of Randall Carlson. He's a Builder/Designer by day and a Geological/Anthropological Theorist by night. For the past three decades he's been collecting data to support his theories. There's a lot of crossover between his theories and that of Hancock. Maybe there's some truth to them maybe there isn't who knows but one thing for sure they do raise questions.

Unfortunately there are a lot of reputations/egos at stake if history has to be rewritten, so sometimes when things challenge the text books they are quickly dismissed. Very few dare to challenge what is broadly accepted in fear of ruining their career, losing funding for their work and/or being ridiculed by peers.

Those who go against the grain usually don't have it easy, even if their arguments seem plausible.

[mynameiscd]

Hi Lostinsp_ce,
I know what you meen about proposing new theories.
Im in a small town and even just mentioning about aborigines building the woolshed is causing quite a stir.
Its like im taking something away from them.
Alex, your proposal will ruffle a few feathers but i like it.
Cheers
Andy

[xelasnave]

Hi Andy
All interesting stuff..thanks for outlining it all.


I cant take credit for any of this stuff as it all comes from others and anyone can look and find this sort of thing on the net.


I would not look at this sort of thing once as so much is an association with Atlantis and I always thought that was a myth.
Atlantis however means different things to different people...I no longer think of it as a mythical island that sank but as a term that is a placeholder for a hypothisised earlier civilization that may have existed before the Younger Dryas event.


But for so many folk they hear this stuff and burr up and reject it without investigating it at all...and for no other reason than they have formed their beliefs and as I said unfortunately when folk form a belief they consider them to be facts...usually facts and beliefs are two very different things.

Me I am very lucky I don't believe in anything or that anything I hear is necessarily the truth..heck I don't buy the big bang theory and that seems to be proved beyond doubt...but with humans we can tell each other we have it all worked out and so any one who may see an alternative or a flaw is never taken seriously and usually attacked and labled a fool, a nutter, etc... but it is funny how through out history we can often see that these nutters have been vindicated and the mob who thought they knew it all proved to be just wrong.


So I like sitting on the fence...when it all boils down...I don't know...I have to rely on others to interpret their findings, I have to accept that they made correct interpretations...now all that tells me there is no point in taking a stand on anything at all...take big bang..basically it stands or falls on the universe expanding..and all say it is and all say there measurements tests reseach etc is correct and everyone around are all satisfied that they have the expansion down pat...and now no one will every look at the possibility that our observations supporting expansion could be flawed... tired light explains red shift a little voice at the back of the room murmers...heritic, fool, nutter, crank throw him out, banish him...well what if that poor fool is correct? the big bang can only be a mirage... now I don't say I know either way but I doubt that we say unequivocally that we really do know...and then think who came up with the idea...someone who has been raised with a preoccupation of a creation...so I see there could be vested reasons for a support that really don't want that little voice in the back of the room questioning anything at all...so remaining unconvinced either way is my way of dealing with everything no matter how well it is established researched etc....

And so all this stuff re Younger Dryas one has to just take on board and look at the evidence the proponents offer...but I cant look at the ice cores so how can I believe the sea did rise..for example....

But when you look at this stuff you certainly get the impression many valid aspects are probable, certainly it seems funny that the pyramids are presented as tombs when there is no evidence, it seems odd that folk reject the evidence of a comet impact or seek an implausible eplaination for the mega fauna die out...maybe it is the influence of those who believe the world is only 6000 years old who although not believed perhaps impose considerable influence in a political sense to guide funding. Who knows I certainly don't but as I said all one can do is look at all the presented facts and avoid forming a belief and then labling your belief the facts.

I just can not understand why folk get upset with new or different information without a recognition that it is belief that they are defending...I think belief can inhibit the search for truth... but often truth is not the issue I guess.

I don't care probably everything we think we know will change somewhat over the coming centuries like it has tended to do in the past.

Alex



Thanks ..I have seen a little of Randell.

I know how humans group and like to label anyone who does not conform to the groups beliefs as a nutter or a fool...imagine if you walked into a football club and said it seemed rather silly that week after week year after year you guys do nothing but indulge an obsession to take that little ball over the line of the other side as if that action defines your life.

Imagine going against the grain anywhere on anything... the response is predictable and no doubt is rooted in our tribal past.

But let the egos and career battles go on, and the football and live in the hope that some truth will pass your way I guess.

Alex

This video requires patience..the presentor is credentialed and really appears to know his stuff...and certainly offers evidence that completely shows the once mainstream notion re Clovis people is probably incorrect.
What I did find surprising in this video is the sheer number of artifacts ..not just a couple here and a couple there but it shows sites where you can probably get a truck load in a week end.

As I said slow to take off so for those of you who look at a minute and make up your mind and jump around so as not to expose yourself to stuff that may change your view...don't...either watch it all or don't bother..but I feel for those who hold a genuine interest in this stuff to do the hard yards and spend the time it takes to hear this guy out.

Solutreans:The first Americans. Dr Standford Emerson centre 2012

I will get a link for you later.

alex

Here is the link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ntiWciV1C0

alex

Look for the part where they found stone tools in USA that were made from flint that came from France.
alex

[julianh72]

On the subject of the Atlantis myth:

We were recently in Santorini (Greece), and there is a good argument that the cataclysmic Minoan eruption in about 1500 - 1650 BC may be responsible for the Atlantis legends.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption#Eruption_dating

Before the massive eruption, Santorini was an almost completely circular island about 15 km across. The remaining crescent-shaped island was formed when something in excess of 60 cubic kilometres of rock were ejected. (That's about four times bigger than the famous Krakatoa event of 1883.) The resulting tsunamis would have devastated any coastal towns in the Aegean region.

The archaeological site of Akrotiri on the protected southern flanks of Santorini shows how devastating these events can be.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akrotiri_(Santorini)

A Minoan bronze-age city was totally covered by ash and pumice (similar to Pompeii), with all sorts of artefacts being found in the buried buildings, giving a fantastic insight into how Minoan civilisation functioned. (The excavated site is protected by a modern roof - see attached image - this is an amazing site, and many of the excavated artefacts can be seen in the museum in nearby Thira.) Unlike Pompeii, no human or animal remains have been found - it is presumed that the inhabitants escaped by sea during the preceding series of eruptions, abandoning most of their possessions as they fled.

There are no reliable historical records of the event, but when you look at what happened to the town of Akrotiri, and ponder the effect of the tsunamis from the event all round the southern Aegean, it is easy to imagine numerous towns and cities being washed into the sea, leaving no modern trace of these communities.

[xelasnave]

Thanks for taking the time to contribute Julian.
I did start looking into that recently but got sidetracked so I really appreciate your post as you remind me about that event.
So I will happily look at the links you provided and follow up on all of it during the course of today.
I hope you are well.
Alex

Funny thing...when I left the law firm I worked for a long time ago they had a presentation and all that and gave me two books ..one was "The history of Western Philosophy" and the other which I can not remember the title was on the event referred to above which outlined the idea that the volcanic events etc have rise to the Atlantis myth...I treasured both of those books but unfortunately they were lost, together with everything else I owned in the bushfires in 2002.
I had a rather comprehensive library but lost the lot unfortunately.
Alex

Here is a video worth watching all the way thru as it somewhat offers a view point representative of many folk interested in the prospect of a history that does not have humans in effect coming out of caves approximately 6000 years ago.
It only shows only the top of the iceberg as one could say however for those who find the proposition of our history being possibly different to in effect what we learnt in school this video may serve as something to cause further investigation of the various reasonably valid points raised to support a different approach.
Further the history suggested could make sense of the many flood stories found in most cultures.
https://youtu.be/-w7gzIQAHf0

Alex

Yet another video...but this guy has written a paper and a book so he must be ok..right:)
Probably would have been a good introduction rather than at the end.https://youtu.be/XcJm2k5QSkAlex

OK we have seen various videos..what can we conclude?
The most curious thing I find is the rock work which I once thought was found only in Peru..it is everywhere and many examples exist where clearly it has been built upon. The reasonable conclusion is that for that rock work to be somewhat world wide there must have been a trade network at least that is beyond our current beliefs.
This certainly strongly suggests a world wide communication such that the incredible rock work is now found world wide.
I think this is our starting point..so we need to analyse what we find before us and come up with plausible explanations to explain this world wide rock work..it is found even on Easter Island ... Where do we go from here what is the next careful step we can take so as to find truth but not fall victim to the various claims we will encounter.
Alex

[JohnF]

After my first ever post on ICEINSPACE I was told that I was not allowed to post on the Bible yet found in this discussion references to Noah's flood -- Which I believe happened. So not wishing to get banned, I will simply say that off of Japan are remains of a submerged city. Deep Off Peru is is a Man built Pyramid underwater. Underwater in the Mediterranean are found underwater cities, etc. That Atlantis Story is found in many other cultures.

But I believe there is another possible explanation of Atlantis. The Peri Reis map, from the 1500s was a reproduction of Much Older maps. It does show Antartica from when Antartica did not have Ice covering it, showing that Antartica is two large continents with a channel between them. And it shows Rivers, etc., which are now under the Ice. And Antartica has been surveyed showing this is a very accurate map. I would suggest that Atlantis is possibly now under the Ice of Antartica -- But do not insist that is the correct assumption, so feel free to disagree with me.

[xelasnave]

The references are to a rise in sea levels due to some intense melting of the ice in North America as argued due to a cosmic impact rather than rain...although I have seen mention that there was a great deal of rain also due to ice being flung up into space...I think the event may certainly have given rise to the multitude of flood stories in many cultures. Sumeria mentions a flood and they were around a bit before the Hebrews who seem to have copied that flood story...So it is indeed hard to discuss these things without noting how the rise in sea levels, if they did indeed occur, found their way as mythical accounts into places like the bible and early Sumerian texts...The Sumerian story is one worth looking into as so much actually came from them..even Adam and the garden appeared there first. And do they have some wild stories of what they called gods flying about...it is hard to grant them such powerful imagination but I find I must come down on the side of..they were great story tellers.
And don't worry about the thread getting closed as that was no doubt more my fault than yours...but I do hope you had time to look at the link that I put up for you.

There are a few sunken cities around the world.
I was reading today that there is a layer of sea silt around the great pyramid so wouldn't that be interesting if it's not just a tale someone made up.

Anyways thanks you for contributing here and if you can add anything say from a sourse other than you know where please present it...mind you for some folk to even think that there could have been a different history is unthinkable but I have found the more you look at what is out there the more one must wonder if we know anything about anything.
Thanks.
Alex

[JohnF]

I have a DVD that tells us when Aborigines arrived in Australia they had Iron tools. But if you have no way, or no knowledge of making or repairing your tools when they broke they would be abandon and rust away. That is such technology could easily be lost.

[xelasnave]

How did they determine that John?

If you think about it you could imagine it easier to start with iron as you could find a meteor whereas copper requires a process..maybe gold ..it is probably the most workable..

Alex

[JohnF]

Alex if you go to the rocks north of Ballina -- not that far from your location, I 12 km live north of Nimbin -- you will find a fossil beach in this rocks above the present sea level. So Sea levels were higher at one stage in the past. Nothing to do with an Astroid or comet impact.



Pharaoh Tutankhamen had a couple of knifes in his tomb. A Solid Gold one and an Iron one. The Iron was the More valuably one as Iron was often from Meteors. But on my facebook page I saw a Youtube of smelting Iron with very simple primitive tools.

In South America is very ancient Aluminium sheets lining walls of ancient Buildings. The Only way we can smelt Aluminium today is with enormous amounts of Electricity. So that the Ancients 4000 years ago generate enormous amounts of electricity, or else they had other technologies to smelt Aluminium that modern man has never discovered.

Some ancient races could do that smelting of Iron, while others could not. And Archaeology has found some used Iron much earlier than others.

In India is found a large ancient Iron pillar that will not corrode. We cannot produce such Iron today.

[xelasnave]

Thanks for that information John.

Finding shells etc in rocks above sea level does not necessarily mean that the sea was higher ... the Earth moves around and things are pushed all about so forgive me if I do not accept your evidence as proof of anything at all really.

I expect we both know the arguments for and against Noahs flood I expect you believe in a super natural explanation that the flood was ...well what the story tells you...and I am at a stage where I am still reviewing evidence that supports the hypothesis that the various flood myths common to many cultures came from a comet impact causing a rapid sea level rise which we can call a natural but hopefully uncommon event.

For me I prefer natural over supernatural and I expect you are the opposite.

The evidence for the comet impact is not complete but if you look into what is presented so far the arguement is strong.

But the main thing to realise is land can move up and down relative to sea levels so perhaps rocks showing evidence they were once under the sea has no bearing upon sea levels world wide. I believe scientific evidence can be found to prove the correct view.

Thanks again irrespective of anything I sure would like to look at those rocks.

There is a place on the South coast with hundreds of fossils above the water line and that was fascinating.

Have a great day.

Alex



Yes the reason I mentioned that iron should be easier to start with than copper was because I was aware of that knife and I bet it was not the only one or the first...
Are you talking about that African tribe smelting iron and making a hoe I think..cool.

I will Google the aluminium sheets you mention...sounds interesting.

And funny I was only looking at a vid re that iron pillar a couple of days ago....but I think the consensus is that the reason that it resists corrosion is that it is no doubt a object that has fallen to Earth ....and actually I think we can make Steel similar simply by analyzing the content of that pillar and making one..either that or just go for something in stainless steel..not necessarily a unexplainable mystery...most things can be explained with science these days...

I have spent some time today looking at how the Sahara was once lush and green only 5000 to 10000 years ago...who would have thought that...an interesting area for new discoveries I feel.

I hope you looked at that video I suggested...if you did great if you didn't I hope you just did not stick your fingers in your ears and go...laaarlarrrnaaar naaarr...if you did that I will be most disappointed. Seriously it contains such useful information as to how we arrived at so many beliefs we find still followed today...It is nice to know the truth and approach reality with an open mine and determination to honestly seek the truth...I do it all the time:D

Have a great day:).
Alex

[croweater]

Shells and other sea fossils are found at the top of Himalayas. Things definately move around over the years. :thumbsup: Cheers, Richard

[xelasnave]

That comet sure caused a big wave;)

Alex

[redbeard]

Hi Alex,
Yes, I have thought about it, quite a bit over the past couple of years or so.
There easily could have been a civilization that were wiped out, or at least their technology wiped out. And those large stones/blocks that the 'ancients, (past civilization)' built with, very similar in different places around the world is interesting at the least.

As far as big craters go, there is an article in the latest "Science Illustrated' which mentions the one they found in Greenland recently, 31 km wide. About 13,000 years ago they are guessing at the moment and if correct, could very easily be something that wiped out a previous civilization if it existed before hand.
If there was a civilization that had some form of technology that existed before an cataclysmic event, they may have known that this meteor was coming way years beforehand and had time to evacuate. Who knows where, another planet/moon underground, another galaxy, another universe? They could have left 20,000 years ago and the ones left behind are, us. ??

They may even have come back to get us, but when they got here, they took 1 look and 'Oh My, let's get out of here!'.
I'm voting that there was a civilization before, simply based on all the very old, big stuff around and there have been no logical explanations to date. I would also imagine they were science based rather than religious based folk and all the building type structures were also built for science or lifestyle reasons.

Just some light thinking anyhow. Great topic.

Cheers,
Damien

[dikman]

The concept that aborigines came here with iron implements but forgot how to make them is just a little bit out there, I reckon. :rolleyes: It's what I would call a self-fulfilling theory, because being iron they would have rusted away to nothing in the 60,000 odd years (latest figure) that they've been here, which would conveniently explain why we haven't found any. It's also a reasonable assumption that any race sufficiently civilized to master iron work would have also had bronze implements, as bronze is simpler to make, but there have been no bronze tools found in Oz to the best of my knowledge (and bronze doesn't rust away like iron).


Some theories put their actual arrival at maybe 5,000 years ago, and if they had iron tools in that time frame I would expect there to be some traces left - but nothing has been found.

[julianh72]

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
Carl Sagan (Paraphrasing Pierre Simon Laplace: "The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness.")

[xelasnave]

I wonder if there is a book that records all ruins known as well as all the maybe propositions setting out all specifications and description of composition of materials etc etc together with all estimates of time period and listing the various views from mainstream to off beat... I expect you would need many volumes ..

I refrain from speculation about so much but I do wonder why it is that folk think the pyramids were firstly built by the Egyptians when there is no recording by them making such a claim, secondly why it is common belief the pyramids were built as tombs when, as I understand matters not one body has been found in any pyramid...I mean ask the next five people you meet...who built the pyramids and what were they for...I bet your answer is...by the Egyptians to be used as tombs...there is no evidence unless I am mistaken for either proposition.

And it's beyond belief that the great pyramid could be built in 20 years...2.5 million blocks..do the sums..heck I did and it works out from recollection one block set in place every five minutes twenty four seven for 20 years..is that right?
However by assuming it was a tomb and therefore related to the kings time on the job we get..20 years..heck can you imagine the line of blocks...one after the other every five minutes of every day ,all 24 hours, for 20 years...who wrote the paper and came up with 20 years...
The interesting thing it seems around the great pyramid and everyone is walking over them without noticing is massive stone blocks...I don't think anyone has checked how thick but wouldn't that be nice to know.
Alex

[julianh72]

It's sad that in this day and age, one person making a claim on the internet that large scale stone construction is impossible without modern tools (or UFOs!), that the pyramids can't possibly have been built within one life-time, there is no evidence that they were tombs, we don't have the technology today to achieve what was accomplished by the ancients, etc, etc, etc, and that becomes fact in many people's minds.

Yes, the pyramids are a monumental undertaking (pun fully intended!), and the Great Pyramid in particular, and it is mind-boggling to think of what it must have taken - but when people have applied their minds to that question, it turns out to be entirely achievable with the technology and resources available to them.

The Egyptians didn't have access to modern tools (or UFOs), but they did have access to a huge, skilled, willing, seasonal workforce (no, they weren't slaves!), and they were clearly very good at project management.

There is good reason to believe that major earthwork ramps were part of the construction methodology - traces of them have been found at other pyramid sites, including archaeological evidence of the levering systems etc that were used to haul stone blocks up the ramps, with a gradient of 20% or more. E.g. see: https://www.livescience.com/63978-great-pyramid-ramp-discovered.html

Take a look at this article on the construction of the Great Pyramid, as analysed by a modern-day project management team: https://web.archive.org/web/20070608101037/http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/0699feat.html
It is their conclusion that the construction would have required an average labour force of 13,200 workers over a 10-year duration. Even if you double the number of workers, and double the duration, it could still have been comfortably accomplished within one life-time. That analysis was published 20 years ago - and yet, a prevailing view seems to be that we have no idea how it could have been accomplished.

I visited Peru last year, including Machu Picchu and Cuzco. I have long heard of the astonishing precision of the stonework there, and how we (supposedly) have no idea how the blocks were shaped or moved. Yes, the stonework shows craftsmanship of the highest order, but the clues as to how it was done are visible everywhere you look - blocks which still have pegs and holes that were used for pulling them together, partially dressed stones (and stonework for more humble buildings) showing how a roughed-out block could be trimmed to a precision-fit, etc. (No resident of Cuzco seriously believes that aliens must have built the Incan temples - they walk past the far more mundane evidence every day in the main streets and alleys.)

On the lack of direct evidence of the pyramids being used as tombs - it's not just lack of tomb relics, it's a general lack of all sorts of artefacts. And that's because all of the pyramids were robbed in antiquity, as were almost all of the more conventional tombs. (That's why Tutankhamen's tomb was such a major find - it's one of very few pharaonic tombs to have remained intact into the modern era.) In fact, the one significant artefact found in the Great Pyramid is a granite sarcophagus, located in the King's Chamber - it's hard to imagine what this was to be used for, if not as a tomb! (Presumably this was too big to be looted, but everything else was taken thousands of years ago.)

None of this should in any way diminish the wonder of the pyramids - but please, don't resort to voodoo as being the only plausible explanation of how and why they were built.

[xelasnave]

Interesting video..lots of ruins..interesting assertion about star charts from China.
So if you have nothing else to do...

https://youtu.be/WMpuSMCt23U

Alex



Hi Julian ...where did you get the UFO thing?

Why say such a thing? I did not remotely suggest such a thing ..did I?
It is clear you have formed a view and are not thinking about the matters that I am raising...you are creating a straw man which is not cricket old chap.

As to getting it done in twenty years please do me a favour..get out your calculator and tell me how many blocks an hour, each hour for the twenty years...Maybe I made a mistake but just that one single observation must cause one to doubt the twenty year story...wouldn't that be better than going on with alien rubbish..

I will look at your links and take the opportunity to thank you for providing them.

I know about pretty well all the ideas as to construction ramps etc ... so it must have been a pretty well built ramp to take a line of blocks that enabled them to lay a block each five minutes non stop for the alleged twenty years...please check my sums as I must be wrong. There is a case that they brought blocks up the causeway and a bit past the site and built a ramp from there...anyways there are a variety of ideas..but again note I said nothing about it could not be done as such...

If they were doing mainly back fill it still means 2.5 ton every five minutes for twenty years...I will look at the link as I am interested to find reasonable explanations..I hope there are no aliens involved.

Honest Julian..what is your preoccupation with aliens ..did I suggest that..if I have it would have been a transparent joke...I am hurt that you suggest such particularly as I did not..A lesser person would have taken it as a backhanded insult..and how else could your suggestion be taken given I have done none of the crack pot things you seem to be trying to link me to...please tell me where I have misunderstood your post.

Not cricket at all.

In any event the point I have been making (or so I believe) as to this rock work was not that it was difficult or that we could not do it..my point was that it is found world wide, even on Easter Island ..that is curious. The polygonal stuff..I am speaking fact..it is world wide.

You admit there is nothing to go on as to the tomb aspect..as it's all gone and focus upon a granite box that you guess must have been a tomb because you can't imagine what else it could be used for???? So based on your best guess we can ignore the fact that all the bodies are found in the Valley of the Kings...come on ..do you expect to sweep away my observations on your best unsupported guess.

AND if a cofin why is it in the corner...that alone suggests to me it was not a coffin and absolutely inconsistent with their strict ideas as to perfect layout.

And why nothing on the walls...looted?

And why do we find all the bodies in the Valley of the Kings..you do know where they found the king you mention..not in a pyramid is a clue.

And why do we find no recording of any pyramid building..you know reference to the builders the plans invoices..anything..not one single thing..we have bread and beer directions, pornography, details of order forms to instal windows in a house etc yet nothing re building any pyramid..oh one piece of evidence offered is some obscure reference to floating one stone block down the Nile with no reference to where or for what it's purpose...

Anyways forget the aliens ...and please stop suggesting I offer arguement from incredulity as I have not done so...these are red herrings...just think about the reasonable, propositions that I present...


And perhaps before I acknowledge your appeal not to resort to voodoo you may care to point out exactly where I have done so...you say I enlist aliens..again please so same..you say that I find explanation as to stuff unexplainable so please show where..I suggest you are attacking a straw man that you have constructed because for what ever reason you do not wish to address the matters I raise...how do you plead:)

Honestly pretty shabby and I am surprised you employ such insulting tactics.

Alex

[Peter Ward]

I've watched the video by Graham Hancock.

As Sagan was fond of saying, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Hancock throws up "ideology" used by academics (dam, and I thought I was learning scientific method as an undergrad) are one of the key reasons why you should believe his BS.

But he is selling pure snake oil and BS.

A back of the envelope calculation will show for sea levels to rise by 30 feet in 24 hours would be an all-life-on-earth-ends-now event....as it requires about 1.2 to the 19th power, yes that's 120000000000000000000, litres of water to be literally added or melted on the planet overnight.

Assuming a big Vogon water-tanker didn't dump its load on the planet for their hyperspace road works, then 1.2 x ten to the 19th by 333.55 Kj of energy was liberated to melt a lot of ice. That's about 4x 10 to the 21st power of kilojules. or 1.11 to the 21st power watts of energy.

Hoped you packed your sunblock, as that is about 1000x more that all of the energy the earth receives from the Sun. Yet remarkably most species around the Holocene era were doing just fine.

Sure, some megafauna did become extinct about 10,000 years ago.....it took a couple of thousand years. That has nothing on the current extinction rate.

The current extinction rate is some 800 species in the last century, with close to 20,000 species now being threatened.

What caused such mayhem? Hint: rocks from space not required.....

[xelasnave]

I warned early to be careful of listening to everything these folk say and Hancock was only one of who I had in mind.

So from the second link....."We estimated that a delivery rate of 180 blocks per hour was required from level 50 to level 74 and then used this rate to determine if the ramp size and number of crews were feasible. This seemed possible. We then determined that at the lower level the ramp would be wider and could sustain delivery rates twice this number. Above level 75 the delivery rate drops off because of the smaller number of blocks, so ramp size and crew numbers are reduced. The size of crews can be estimated in various ways.

Peter it's good you have a something on the water required...we can work out how many cubic miles of ice needed.
I will look at it later.
Alex

[Peter Ward]

According to Wiki, Greenland has 2,850,000 cubic kilometres of ice. My best estimate to get a sea level rise of 10 metres, we need to melt half of that in 24 hours.....

Highly unlikely.....

[xelasnave]

Yes. I find if 20 k m x 2 k of ice was blasted up etc that only give (I think) approx 700000000000000 liters ...so we can rule out an overall rise as such...what about a 30 foot world wide wave?

And ice cores won't work that far back it seems as past a couple of thousand years the ice more or less explodes when they bring it up because it was under so much pressure..still looking into that as one of the claims re rise is that ice cores tell us that..it seems maybe it can not.


Alex

So must check the various claims about the future sea level rise due to warming that I have heard what in retrospect must be some exaggerations. Another thread..if all the ice melted etc.
Alex

And the claim of 400 ft seems perhaps over the top...And I guess Noahs flood is running into big problems as well.
Alex

230 feet...
Alex

[Peter Ward]

Sorry Alex, that is plain wrong and nonsense.

They don't explode. Liquids and solids are highly incompressible.

I have some bunker coal from the Titanic on my desk. Taken 3.8Km down. So far it hasn't exploded.

The literature is full of examples of 600,000 year and older ice core data from samples takes at 3-4 km down.

[xelasnave]

I will try and find the lecture where I picked that up...explode perhaps ..certainly..the wrong word..but I thought the lecturer said because of the pressure it expanded rapidly and they could not read it ... I will look for it.

Thanks Peter.

Alex

Here is the lecture ..Yale..
https://youtu.be/qtA_3Z1N0ho
And you will see the lecturer says the ice gets brittle and actually uses the words that it explodes...useful cores limited to 8000 bc and depth 600 to 1300 mtrs.
Alex

Edit... I forgot to direct viewers to the spot in the video where I picked up the notion of the ice exploding and the limitations that brittle ice puts on the research...go to minute 49 and you will hear the lecturer say what he said and know where I got the notion...a matter of less than a minute.

Now I watching another lecture and he certainly mentions 400,000 year icecore????
Alex

[Peter Ward]

Very early in the Yale talk you linked to, he mentions millennial ice cores down to 3.4k. or so....i.e. dating from hundreds of thousands of years ago.

There is a good deal of literature on this elsewhere....I'm not inclined to sift through an hour long Youtube history presentation to find ( or not) a "sound byte" that really proves nothing.

Critical thought and reading peer reviewed material works better for me.

[xelasnave]

Yes I am trying to get up to speed in this area. The video that I linked to was the first material that I had looked at on the subject but given it was out of Yale I felt it should have been reliable to a larger degree than claims offered up in Hancock type material.

And sorry I thought I noted where in the video to look so you would know where I got the idea re "exploding ice"...And I only offer this up to show that I did not pull the idea out of thin air and certainly not to prove any other point. If you go to 49 th minute you will hear him say what I said that I heard...it will be over in a minute.

And I do not take the opposite position to you when it comes to critical thinking or reading peer reviewed paper or whilst on the matter the scientific method. That lecture was the first I saw and after viewing it I began to think the claims re the sea level rise being evidenced in the ice cores was suspect given the limitations the lecturer in the posted video mentioned. I did say earlier that I was looking to find what was actually shown in the ice cores and after seeing that video backed off looking..other things to do..And I never got back to looking at more information.

In any event I still have not found any information where the ice cores for the period in question have been discussed by folk who are not pushing a particular barrow..ie an impartial scientific statement as to what the ice cores tell us about the sea levels around the period when the impact is alleged to have occurred.

Thank for your input re the ice cores as it now appears that evidence may indeed be available. Without getting carried away I have yet to establish the sea level rise if any...after all that claim is one that requires evidence ..the cores should be able to tell us what happened around that time I hope.

Alex

[JohnF]

Okay, I doubt the Pyramids were tombs -- well some of them anyway. But Tutankhamen's tomb was the first ever to be found intact. every other had been robbed of its wealth.

Mega fauna was hunted by humans, and so died out -- not talking of mammoths, etc. We made them extinct by hunting. If you go out hunting, you do not hunt a small possum when there is a giant animal that will feed the whole village for days. The Dodo, the Moa, the elephant bird are know to have been hunted to Extinction. And we know others were hunted out also. Ditto the last remaining Dinosaur. We all have heard of St. George killing the Dinosaur, but ancients called them dragons.

[xelasnave]

I don't know why I did not do this earlier..I know folk don't like wiki but it's a great place to start.
Here is a link to the matter outlining the proposition with things in support and things against.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis

Alex



Good morning John.
I guess St George was looking for something to feed the whole village.
Alex

[Peter Ward]

Oh pleeeease...The Flintstones was not a documentary. Homo sapiens came along 65 million years after the dinosaurs were long gone.

[xelasnave]

Not according to some folk.
Alex

[julianh72]

Alex,

I apologise that my post has created offence.

My reference to aliens and UFOs was not aimed at you, it was more a general frustration that when people can't imagine how THEY could personally achieve what has been done in the past, they start to resort to other explanations, or to doubt that the project could have been completed in a sensible timeline. However, if you take away the references to UFOs, aliens and voodoo (for which i apologise), I stand by the remainder of my post.

For the specifics of the Great Pyramid, yes, it is an astonishing undertaking, but it is in fact quite achievable in 20 years - or less! I really do urge you to check the project management article that I linked, because they present the maths for the man-power quite convincingly. (They even factor in days off and holidays, allowing 280 x 10-hour days per worker per year.)
https://web.archive.org/web/20070608101037/http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/0699feat.html

A few key highlights, though.

There are about 2.6 million cubic metres of material, estimated to be about 2 million blocks. While some of the blocks are massive, the majority are around 1 cubic metre, and weigh about 2 1/2 tonnes each. Yes, these are substantial objects, but we KNOW that a team of about 20 labourers can haul such a bock up an earthen ramp on a sled, without needing wheels or rollers.

Note that the blocks are not uniform in size, they actually get smaller as we go up - this is presumably part of their methodology for moving these quantities of stone blocks to such heights. The vast majority of blocks are completely undressed; finishing was generally done in-situ on the visible faces only, and presumably a skilled artisan workforce was employed on this aspect.

A common misconception is to assume that the rate of installation of the 2 million blocks was something like constant over the life of the project - say 500 - 600 blocks per day over a 10-year program (or whatever number you arrive at depending on the assumed time-line) - but this is not the case!

As the structure is a pyramid, the vast bulk of the material is in the lower tiers. 7/8 of the total material is in the bottom half of the height, only 1/8 of the material, or about 250,000 blocks, comprise the whole top half! The paper estimates that there are about 250 layers of blocks in the main structure, but that 2/3 of the blocks had been placed by level 50; there are only about 7,000 blocks in the last 20 layers.

The delivery rate of the blocks can be MUCH higher at the base than at the top - because the base is vast, there is not much problem with bringing in blocks from multiple directions. The base is 230 metres to a side, so you can easily conceive of how you could initially have dozens of teams bringing in blocks from all directions.

Things get more challenging as we go up, because we get more and more restricted in the number of ramps, and the widths and lengths of those ramps - but the number of blocks per layer drops off rapidly. The paper assumes a single ramp, with a 15% gradient; the final volume of the ramp works out to be about 1/3 that of the pyramid itself, and its construction and removal is factored into the whole project undertaking. We know that a 15% ramp is feasible, because there are archaeological sites at quarries where such ramps (and steeper) have been found, as well as evidence of the technology used to haul the blocks up the ramps.

In the early stages of construction, a team of 20 could probably move a couple of blocks a day from a staging area at the base of the pyramid into position; as height is gained, the hauling distance becomes longer, and it takes one or more days for each block to reach its finished location - but we are moving far fewer blocks per day than at the start. 20 to 50 metres behind the first team is another team, and another behind that, and another behind that... At the end of each working day, all the blocks are left where they lie, the crew go off for a meal and a sleep, and the next day they all pick-up where they left off.

Yes, an astonishing undertaking, requiring fantastic project management - but entirely achievable with the technology and labour force that we know they had.


I don't pretend to know all of the purpose and meaning of the Great Pyramid, but we can take a lot of clues from earlier smaller pyramids from multiple sites (which most assuredly WERE used as tombs), and the fact that the Great Pyramid is part of a substantial funerary and religious complex.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giza_pyramid_complex

The Giza complex dates from an entirely different (MUCH older) part of Egyptian history to the Valley of the Kings - circa 2500 BC for the Giza complex (4th Dynasty), versus 11th to 16th century BC for the Valley of the Kings (18th to 20th Dynasties). Funerary customs (artefacts, wall decorations, ceremonies, etc) should not be assumed to be comparable. It is believed that pretty well everything at Giza had been looted long before the time of the Valley of the Kings.

[AstralTraveller]

.... all but one, very long lived, individual. :P

[xelasnave]

Hi Julian...there is no need to apologise, in fact, it is I that should appologise for grandstanding...in my own humble way...

Perhaps the reason I blurred up too much was because I feel exactly the same way as you do regarding the various unsupported speculations, particularly those regarding aliens did it. I would hope folk don't think I am that crazy.

I find it particularly frustrating to be watching a video on these matters which goes along quiet reasonably and then they go off the rails with the idea of aliens..for example.

For a variety of reasons that sort of thing annoys me but mostly because I feel there are questions that can be asked that require reasonable explanation and moreover the presentation of evidence that supports the proposition that the Eygiptians perhaps were not the original builders and to entertain that there is no need to make wild guesses that frankly cause reasonable folk to abandon considering the simple proposition that the Egyptians may well have inherited "ruins" which they used for their own purposes.

I think there is a reasonable case to wonder why the pyramids are presented as tombs as certainly I find nothing that is mildly supportive of such...in fact there are many observations that would seem to contradict that unevidenced proposal.

And yet as I said ask anyone in casual conversation and the answer is invariably that they were built as tombs...And that is possible no doubt but to say so without real evidence is a wild guess...it is out there but it seems an urban myth.

I certainly did look at the links you kindly provided.

And I admit they have made a good attempt at thinking about the matter. I neither accept or reject their approach or conclusions.

But the nagging fact is they attempt to show how it could be possible clearly to fit the current thinking into something folk can digest and that the tomb idea is correct..why..

But the fact there is no claim to fame for building any pyramid and not one invoice, or work sheet, or any thing at all that hints at the massive project has me open to thinking well there is nothing because they may have inheritted the "ruins".

And if they have not recorded anything at all one must wonder why...maybe the plans were secret but you could think there would be little things ..law suits, invoices, notes of something..but there is nothing.

The time given to construction is needed to fit the belief that the great pyramid was a tomb for a specific king...if not a tomb not only does the time suggested for building become open ended but the question must arise ...well why did the Eygiptians build it...And in the absence of a reason if a tomb is off the table I think we came determine that they had no reason...I hope that you can see the approach I take is perhaps the approach that should have been taken first rather than someone claiming they were tombs, building a career on such and causing all to follow seeking to support a claim that I see no reason to be made in the first place...evidence beats belief and opinion.

I think the claim they were tombs has absolutely no evidence..so far...but I have been looking..I have no axe to grindl like pretty well all who make a comment. Hancock has committed to various books and others have written papers...And so we get sides both of whom hide anything that is inconvenient to their stand...And so finding what is fact and what is real evidence becomes most difficult.

Again thank you for your input and again remember I blurred up simply because those alien proponents annoy me just as much as they do you ...And I certainly may be a bit of a nutter but really I am driven by looking at evidence and using science, the scientific method and observation to arrive at all myconclusions and having arrived I don't commit to a belief that I now know it all...

You have a great day.
Alex

[julianh72]

Alex,

There is very little in the way of "documentary" evidence dating back to the era of the pyramids, other than the "hard" evidence (pottery, jewellery, buildings, sculptures, etc) - pretty well all of the "soft" evidence (papyrus, fabrics, official records and histories, etc) has been lost. The history trail was well and truly cold by the time of the celebrated later dynasties of Tutankhamen, Nefertiti, etc - they were mystified by the purpose and function of the pyramids, because the culture of the much earlier pyramid-builders was entirely foreign to them.

We KNOW that the earliest pyramids were used as tombs, because funerary remains have been found in some; we also know that virtually all tombs and temples of that period (including mausoleums, in-ground burials, cave burials, and the pyramids) were comprehensively looted well before the later Egyptian dynasties. The Egyptian pyramids were an evolution from earlier structures (mastabas in Egypt, ziggurats in Mesopotamia before that), and we also know that these too were used as temples and tombs.

It is incorrect to state that there are no hieroglyphics in the Great Pyramid - they HAVE been found in the various hidden chambers. Their meaning is not entirely certain, but they are thought to be builder's marks and calculations, rather than having a symbolic or religious function. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/43314221/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/mystery-pyramid-hieroglyphs-it-all-adds/#.XWiPgS4zZEY

As for the absence of such markings in the main chambers - yes, it is believed that whatever writing and artwork existed in the main chambers was destroyed by looting and / or decay. As I noted previously, it is unreasonable to assume that the walls of the pyramids would have been decorated in the same way as the temples of the much later dynasties - these were very different civilisations, functioning at very different times in history.

It seems to me that the question is not "What evidence is there that the Great Pyramid was intended to be a tomb?", but rather "What reason is there to suspect that it was not?"

[JohnF]

Of course it is well known that the Giza Pyramids do line up with the stars of the belt of Orion.

And some were tombs, but I am not sure about the Giza Pyramids.

I mainly took notice of the mud brick Pyramids of the 12th Dynasty the last these built by Semite Slaves, according to Rosalie David, head of the Egyptian Collection of the Manchester Museum, the Largest Egyptian collection in the Manchester Museum. In her book she says that we do not know who these slaves were, or why they suddenly disappeared from Egypt at the end of the 13th Dynasty.

But I know. Archaeology records like the "Ipuwer Papyrus" does coincide with what is written a book that I am not suppose to mention in ICEINSPACE. That Papyrus tells the same story of the Exodus plagues on Egypt.

Alex, I know it was a couple of days ago that we discussed Iron, but I am only on internet two or three days a week, so here is my answer to that --

the Bible does mention that Iron was worked very early before the flood;

Iron pots, etc. have been dug up in Coal Seams said to be millions of years Old.

Back in the 1970s I was a member of Sydney Speleological Society. We had one member – I forgot his name now decades later-- who was a coal mining geologist from the Illawarra region. I asked him about these Iron artefacts that were dug up in coal and he replied,

“I have seen these artefacts,”

but he did not want to talk much about what he had seen – as a geologist he wrote reports that said that the coal seams were millions of years old – perhaps that is why he did not want to talk about Iron Pots. etc., that were dug up in coal that was said to be between 20 & 100 million years old. A number of members of that Sydney Speleological Society did believe in evolution, so perhaps he did not want to cause controversy by talking of these ancient Iron Artefacts found in that coal.


But it does not take much technology to smelt Iron ore into workable Iron, as this Youtube video does show.

But many ancient races did not have Iron – their races had forgotten how to do this very simple smelting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STFeW0cbB7c

The top of mount Everest, over 8,000 metres 29,000 feet above sea level has sea shells. That is it was once underwater. How many years ago is not important for this discussion.

I was shown a nautilus shell from base camp at Mount EveresT after an in-law did visit there.

So as Everest can rise out of the sea, a city called Atlantis could sink to ocean depths.

Now Noahs flood was mentioned – not by me as far as the first mention in this thread. But was a world wide flood possible ??

Well see the above Post on Everest for a start.

Every Continent of the world has the story of a world wide flood that covered the top of every mountain.


Now most on this forum do not believe the Bible, but Genesis 1 says that “God divided the waters above from the waters beneath.” Some Creationists do think of this “Waters above” as a 40 foot Water Canopy above the atmosphere, that is at the edge of space. This fits many Scientific facts. That would mean, if looking at Earth from Mars back then, it would appear a bit like Venus, us not being able to see down to the surface of the planet.

But let us look at some other possible explanations, For example say this planet once had Rings of Water as in Saturns rings, around it, which did collapse, causing that recorded world wide flood ??

There is at least one moon of Frozen water in our Solar System. What if one previously was knocked out of orbit, and headed down to out world. Could that have happened in the past ??

What about a large comet or comets, which are basically dirty snowballs. What if they hit the earth.

Or perhaps a combination of more than one of these.

I tend to believe the water canopy, perhaps frozen as Ice, but am open on tis matter. But the possibilities from what we do know about our solar system are also interesting – none should set their ideas in concrete, but be open to other ideas.

Oh and volcanic eruptions can put out enormous amounts of Superheated water If that was pushed to the edge of space by volcanic erpuptions that could have bought down any such a water canopy..

I mean, even Alex is a heretic because he doubts the Big bang -- I have not yet rejected that Big Bang theory, but do listen to other ideas.

This is what hat “Heretic” Alex said earlier [If the inquisition was still going they would also burn me at the stake for Heresy]:--

“Me I am very lucky I don't believe in anything or that anything I hear is necessarily the truth..heck I don't buy the big bang theory and that seems to be proved beyond doubt...but with humans we can tell each other we have it all worked out and so any one who may see an alternative or a flaw is never taken seriously and usually attacked and labled a fool, a nutter, etc... but it is funny how through out history we can often see that these nutters have been vindicated and the mob who thought they knew it all proved to be just wrong.”

Oh Alex, you stated that you have problems with the big bang. I have not fully rejected the big bang as yet, but do see that there could be another explanation of the universe.

I have a DVD video called “Big Problems with the Big Bang.” Problem for you is it is a DVD by Creationists.

Alex said:--

“So I like sitting on the fence...when it all boils down...I don't know...I have to rely on others to interpret their findings, I have to accept that they made correct interpretations...now all that tells me there is no point in taking a stand on anything at all...take big bang..basically it stands or falls on the universe expanding..and all say it is and all say there measurements tests reseach etc is correct and everyone around are all satisfied that they have the expansion down pat...and now no one will every look at the possibility that our observations supporting expansion could be flawed... tired light explains red shift a little voice at the back of the room murmers...heritic, fool, nutter, crank throw him out, banish him...well what if that poor fool is correct? the big bang can only be a mirage... now I don't say I know either way but I doubt that we say unequivocally that we really do know...and then think who came up with the idea...someone who has been raised with a preoccupation of a creation...so I see there could be vested reasons for a support that really don't want that little voice in the back of the room questioning anything at all...so remaining unconvinced either way is my way of dealing with everything no matter how well it is established researched etc....”

Normally I do not read the magazine, “New Scientist,” but pick up a second hand copy, because it had an article, “What if the Speed of Light is infinite.” Yes if the Speed of light was infinite the universe would be smaller than currently thought.

Yes that would change a real lot of so called Science – E=MC squared, etc.

That magazine pointed out that one cluster of distant galaxies all do have different red shifts, where it is accepted that they all are roughly the same distance from our sun, etc. Now not having a P.HD in Astrophysics [no qualifications at all in that field – have read a few bits of books on this. Do have a copy of an “Encyclopaedia of Astronomy and Astrophysics” that my wife purchased for me for one dollar from a table of second hand books. She also got another astronomy text book at one dollar], I do not plan on discussing this “WHAT IF” any further as I will be out of my depth.

But as I did say elsewhere, it appears that the Speed of Light is actually slowing down, because every time the Speed of Light is measured, the results are for a lower speed.

Alex, perhaps you are wrong and Gravity actually SUCKS at that light slowing it down – Ha Ha :D :D No Alex, I am not serious.

[xelasnave]

Nice informative post Julian. Thank you.
I will work on both questions and arrive at pros and cons for each.

Alex

[JohnF]

the dingo that the Aborigines bought to Australia is a close relative of India's Yellow face wolf. So many have thought that they came from India. And yes, India also had the Boomerang, and many aboriginal words are identical to this from India. So I would like more evidence on this matter.

[xelasnave]

Thank you for the link John.
Alex



All very interesting...however when it comes to science old books are usually inadequate as they contain only ideas etc from their time period and as we discover new things daily one needs the latest book to get the up to date position...so even books 20 years old may be useless and usually the older they are the more useless they get ...And I don't have to name names as that principle holds for all publications.

Let me confide in you John ..I am the only human who really understands gravity and exactly how everything in the universe works...in 1000 years I will be shown to be correct in everything...just wait and see.
Alex



I will ask when I go to my favorite Indian restaurant.
Alex

[JohnF]

You may be interested to know that one of the early pyramids -- forget which one has a couple of dates on the blocks, showing how long it took the builders to get that Pyramid up to that level. Not a long time from memory.

As far as "aliens," a number of very famous evolutionists with P.HD's have claimed that Aliens seeded our planet with DNA, as they raised that DNA could not come about by chance. From memory that includes Physicists Richard Dawkins plus Hawkins, etc. I do not subscribe to that Idea.

[xelasnave]

If Richard Dawkins said it you can take it as being true...one of the most decent humans to ever have lived ..spoke only the truth and his books were wonderful..well I think they would be as I have not read any of them.
I have watched maybe all his videos and what you suggest just does not fit the man I know..maybe it's a context thing...can you be more specific.

But I guess what we need to come up with is when he said this ...did he really say this? I sure would like to know John.

So can you get me a link to a transcript or a video?
And please the same for Hawkins..I presume you mean who I think you mean..yes I would like to read their exact words or see the video.

[JohnF]

All this is a part of what you said on another thread.




Alex it is interesting to look at ancient Statues of the Egyptian creator god named "Ptah."

You might not know that at least some ancient statues of Ptah do show him with serpent scales, and with wings wrapped around him, covering his body.

Now I definitely do not believe that the creator god was a winged serpent, but around the whole world winged Serpent creator gods are widely found.

. The winged serpent worship is found in absolutely every continent of the world, Antartica of course being the exception.

I can show you why, but that would require me to give a number of quotes from a certain book.



Will try to track that down sometime. was giving this from memory.

Alex, just did a google search. Not mentioning Aliens I found this. may have been getting Richard Hawkins mixed up with Dr, Davies, Paul C.W. the Physicist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia

[julianh72]

Another internet myth, which is very easy to disprove (especially in the case of Richard Dawkins):

Do a search for "dawkins panspermia", and you will find plenty of refutation from the man himself; e.g.

I keep meeting a bizarre myth that I think aliens seeded life here. I don’t & never have. Panspermia was supported by Fred Hoyle, never me.
https://twitter.com/richarddawkins/status/446386002408787968?lang=en

Apparently I’m accused of advocating panspermia. Confused with Fred Hoyle? How did that start?
https://twitter.com/richarddawkins/status/431166706367877120?lang=en

Stephen Hawking has indeed publicly entertained the possibility that life on Earth might have come from space - but that is not the same thing as claiming that it is true - and he is on record as being an atheist and Darwinian evolutionist, I don't believe he ever claimed that DNA could not come about by chance.

(And I suspect that Richard Dawkins would also concede that it is possible that life on Earth might have come from space - but he doesn't think it is at all likely, and certainly not for the reasons claimed!)

Please - if we're going to have claims that "so and so has apparently said ...", please take the trouble to check first whether they "apparently" said it, or "absolutely did NOT" say it.

[xelasnave]

So playing with numbers...the great pyramid is estimated to weigh 6 million tons...that means we need a delivery rate of 34 tons each hour every hour for 20 years.

If you have them working only half the day or 12 hours that is 68 ton each hour of the work day...when you include weekends whatever if nothing else we can conclude they were a busy little bunch...in things I read in the link provided by Julian where they talked about the 10,000 big village they said that these workers could build a pyramid in 30 years...that 10 more years I have not heard about.
The numbers of workers is hard to pin down..reference to the worker village at 10,000 but elsewhere is mentioned far greater numbers.

So how many men in a per ton per hour do we need...one must be able to come up with a simple sum...anyways it looks as though I will have to study much more to come up with a variety of propositions.
Let's work out what one would cost to build today...easy cost per ton laid...say $2 a kilo for starters...how much I wonder.
Alex

[JohnF]

Alex, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDvaPzg32W8

[xelasnave]

My guess would be 50 billion cause you need to work in inflation...so what would probably be 12 billion would grow to fifty in 20 years.
But they probably did not have to worry about inflation back then.

Anyone got a number?
Alex



Thanks John I have watched it once but will watch it again as I am sortta doing something else and can already see that this requires my undivided attention.
Thanks I really do appreciate you backing up your statement..anyways I will get back to you. In the mean time do you want to put in a quote to build a pyramid...I was going to cost it using bessa cement bricks for a ruff idea:D
Alex

He certainly speculated that we could have been somehow created by another species...
But I strongly suspect that any qualification he put upon that speculation was probably edited out..the guy who followed is a loon and in any event all I wanted to see was Dawkins saying what you said he said...
Alex



Already know all about all that stuff and I don't think I mentioned I have read cover to cover the group of books you are thinking of... if you know about that sort of thing why do you ignore the video that I suggested..it really explains everything but unfortunately indicates myth abounds based on in effect Sun worship.

I find all these stories interesting nevertheless.

Alex



Thank you John, I am reasonably familiar with this concept but one must remember that just like many other ideas that are presented without evidence they all remain speculation.

I think one must be able to recognise when even scientists are speculating.
The ancients speculated with the knowledge they had on hand, which I note was minimal and amounts to nothing more than superstition.

Science if pushed can only give an honest answer..which is..we do not know..how ever it has explained conclusively the evolution of species beyond all doubt supporting their conclusions with hard evidence and frankly I really believe such supported reasoning wins hands down over a collection of myths put together by nameless authors none of whom were in any way informed nor did they do any science to support their claims..as mentioned here earlier..to the effect..extrodinary claims require extrodinary evidence and of course there is none..zip..nothing..And irrespective of holding a warm fuzzy feeling as to how one may wish reality to be, finally, it is the evidence offered in support that gives us our most plausible view of reality. I know what the book means to folk who grasp it in the hope that it holds the answers but unfortunately such folk fail to properly consider the real and readily available evidence which unfortunately for them shows they are not only mistaken but horribly wrong.
Now I have already said I have problems with the big bang theory and my main objection is who came up with the idea and their need to somehow establish a point of creation..the big bang however realises that even with all the scientific minds addressing the matter they are unable to establish a creation point. The big bang deals only with the evolution of the universe and does not deal with its creation..Now if modern day scientists can not find creation I am damn sure that an un named unqualified ancient can not do any better.

Of course some folk think they have the answers but fail to realise they have no evidence to support their belief.
Now for me I really do think that a modern day scientist can get us closer to understanding the evolution of species using real science and multiple observations in support than can someone un named unqualified coming at the problem from a perspective of fundamental Sun worship that seeks to personify the Sun (the original god) with some obscure unestablished person using heresay and guess work...nevertheless I still think about things rather than abdicate rational thought to the babbling of folk who thought illness comes from demons, that slavery is cool or that you can beat your wife so long as you don't use a stick with a diameter larger than your finger...it's ancient superstitious stuff mate and a little investigation will show that to be undeniable.
You seem like a nice chap but your mind is closed to the reality available to you...And perhaps if you say you wish to find truth that you look for it outside your book so as to avoid a non productive exercise in circular reasoning.
To deny evolution is simply wrong as the evidence comes from multiple directions and is conclusive...Now to hold on after being shown real facts is just not going to allow one to reach enlightenment.
Alex

John I looked at the video again and I do not think it is unreasonable to conclude that Dawkins said more, which I presume would be a qualification as to the speculation he engaged in, and it appears that what he said was edited out.
Alex

I only today found out about these...it's a great day when you learn about something major that you had never heard about.
Why people have this desire to build tombs is something I don't understand.

https://youtu.be/QkNCoW7XK6k

Alex

Who would have thought that Japan had the biggest tomb in the world as shown it the video.
Bigger than the pyramids (assuming they are tombs for the purpose of comparison) and even bigger than that Chinese complex where they found the terracotta army.
Alex

[JohnF]

Alex, Look at the Videos by Professor Walther Veith on Creation -- think these should be on YouTube. If not I am willing to send you a copy.

Professor Veith was a Professor of Biology at University of Western Cape, South Africa, and was an Ardent Evolutionist. But he was confronted by the Evidence, and so changed his mind based on the Evidence, causing him many problems from all the other Professors. He has health and other series on Prophecy, but I am talking about you watching his creation series.



I did read some years ago that there is a gigantic Pyramid in china, that dwarfs every other Pyramid in the world. So perhaps the biggest tomb has not yet been Excavated.

[xelasnave]

I wonder where he found his evidence:D Not science..if he found evidence and was fairdincum he would write a paper and get evolution thrown out.. an I ask was there a paper?...

I will look at yours if you look at mine...I proceed with an open mind and look at all the evidence and I look forward to hearing what your mate says for himself...who knows maybe he has a better scientific model capable of making repeatable testable predictions.

Evolution is a fact to those who build reality on evidence ...and not a fact to those who rely upon ancient works of literature to be reliable sources of science...hint ancient works of literature do not contain science..at all..nil..zip..nothing...

In any event there can be no creation as the universe is eternal..it has always been there in one form or another....no start..no finish..laws of energy and all that...so there was no point of creation and so no one gets to claim that job. Even the big bang has the idea that the universe was a hot dense something and certainly not nothing as so many ignorant folk proclaim...

Prophesy?...why not go for what science demands...testable repeatable predictions that are very specific such that they are in no way open to interpretation and the subjective belief of whoever is making the prediction. It is just so very exact and for it to be science it always has to be 100% correct..always..no questions if it meant this or that..always 100% correct..think a out that and compare it to the proposition you feel is useful...one is fact the other is so wishy washy it is useless.

I do not I tend to discuss religion but some qualification seems appropriate here.. I fear that you think science is somehow like religion and that they are somehow alternatives to each other ...they certainly are not..not in the same world. To do so is like comparing a TV with a brick ...both invented by men ..as is science and religion.. and please note science gave us both the TV and the brick.

Science throws out mistakes and moves forward to seek better understanding and knowledge..it is not stuck in the past and holds onto dogma that becomes outdated and proven wrong... Science does not need to attack anything as it merely presents scientific models that work...where would we be without science.. Well not on the net and still attempting to drive out demons that were once blamed for illness whereas science shows what is actually causing sickness and because of that able to successfully treat things that in the past killed millions.

I like purity and truth that's why I go with science...

Your mate who went against evolution can not..I say can not..have used science to reject it as the science has been tested and there are multiple sides ..all beyond doubt and certainly way past reliance upon campfire musings of thousands of years ago from people who did not even know where the Sun went at night ...yes they were that ignorant so one wonders why anyone would bother with any of their camp fire stories.


Alex



There are many pyramids in China but so far Japan holds bragging rights. Look it up you will be surprised...And one must wonder why pyramids were world wide.
Alex

[dikman]

Not quite world-wide, none in Australia.:D

[xelasnave]

Yes there is..up the New England...recent but a pyramid nevertheless...it is used or was used as a planetarium I think.

Across the road from my old place a hippy built a huge pyramid...but it burnt down in the 2002 Bush fires...he was happy cause he cleaned up on the insurance and for the first time in his life had money that he could explain where it came from.

I have often thought of building one and drew many plans ..the big advantage is they can be made to be most resistant to fire...which makes me wonder why the one across the road caught fire;)

I do wonder why they appeared all over..maybe everyone formed the idea independently...maybe not.

Alex



Have looked..remember that problem I pointed out about circular reasoning..I would use this guy as perhaps one of the best examples out there...it's the old story..you can't win an arguement against belief using facts, observation and logic.

Truth always come second to belief, facts pushed aside in favour of superstition...I see a problem and it does not lay with the scientific method.

These people, your good intentioned but hopelessly uninformed professor, never look at facts or employ the scientific method and if they lose an arguement which is the only option that we can expect...that is if reality is allowed a seat at the table, they merely think the other side failed to understand the point they think they have made. The only aspect they demonstrate is their inability to employ any reasoning other that a unproductive circular reasoning usually attacking statement of their own creation... they never offer facts just some one liner made up by someone who could not tell you where the Sun went at night. It is sad that one must call upon goat herders from thousands of years ago to be able to offer a response to very simple propositions...it's so much like pressure selling..if the buyer has this objection you say this...example..buyer says I had a bad experience with one of your staff...salesman..who was that person..buyer Mr X..oh we fired Mr X so you won't have that problem again...try it..I can give you the list...standard responses to frequently raised objects..is that a surprise..who would have though as much.

Still John you were able to show a video where Dawkins seemed to say something I did not expect...so I ask..did the professor use real evidence to find evolution was wrong..I mean did he use science or did he simply find an appropriate passage of his choice in his collection of literature from the bronze age when folk did not know where the Sun went at night?

As a generalisation I find folk who reject evolution actually do not even know what it says opting for a poorly constructed straw man that they attack rather than actually seeking an intelligent discussion on the actual subject.

Look a quick Google and examination of the real support for evolution is all you need to do and if you at least study and understand what it really says you can probably claim to be the first opponent of the theory that has taken time to see what is involved...Now I could give you a link but think just how exciting you may find doing actual research on the matter could be.

Alex

[dikman]

Alex, I was referring to ye olde, built-by-the-ancients pyramids - which I'm sure you knew.:)


Simple fact is there's no evidence in Oz for any ancient civilisations.

[julianh72]

The Ballandean Pyramid was built a few years ago (early 2000s, I think) using the granite rocks that were removed while preparing the land for a new vineyard (which is now not being used). It is about 30 metres square and fifteen metres high. It can be seen from the New England Highway, a few kilometres north of the New South Wales border.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballandean_Pyramid

It was never used as an observatory, and it is not (legally) accessible to the public, but you can approach quite close on Jacobsen's Road.

There is however a BnB with an impressive observatory (with an 18" reflector among other telescopes) 2 kilometres away in Ballandean village - Twinstar Guesthouse:
http://www.twinstarguesthouse.com/

As far as i know, the owner of Twinstar has no relationship with the pyramid.

[xelasnave]

Thanks Julian that is very interesting.

Alex