Another beginners section

[xelasnave]

Well I guess we really dont need another section but what is apparent is the beginners in this section are producing wonderful images such that it is hard to class them as beginners really.

When I started if I could get an out of focus blob I was happy...but to see the excellent images that appear here daily one must wonder how off putting that may be for anyone starting out.

I think the thing for those folk wondering if they should post given the excellent images now being posted here is not to be put off and fail to show your initial efforts.

I recall my first widefield I posted on a now defunct "Astoromy daily" I was so inept..I used auto focus and my stars were the size of dinner plates but I was just so happy with that images which was horrible in retrospect. But we all start at a point of inadequacy. ..some first images here now look like they are the product of years of effort ..they are that good.


So if you are "lurking" here please dont be afraid to post your first attempts no matter how bad they may be..to post will always get praise, not only for me, but often members may help to guide you just a little.
These comments should be viewed as efforts to help and never taken as some sort of put down. ..no one here is out to denegrate first efforts.

The key is not to let these beginners make you feel you need to get better before you post something.

So please if you are starting please share your results.

Posting your image can be very helpful for your journey.

And to all here I find it wonderful that folk are sharing their results...makes me feel inadequate when I think of my journey ...which has only after ten years is just starting☺.

So post post post...I want to see more folk posting images taken with a hand held phone of the Moon out of focus ...

AND a special mention to Outcast who slips in a first shot that is a pearler and wonders if he is doing ok...well yes you are doing ok..tead exceptional.. but I hope that you have not scarred off folk just starting..you could have at least put up something with prominent star trails and out of focus star trails that showed some problems rather than hit the deck almost perfect☺

So please come forward and post your first stuff and know that no one here wants to do anything more than help.
Alex

[xelasnave]

And mods...I have never asked for any of my posts to be "pinned" but my message must be eternal one could think...How nice for new folk to be reminded that we all started somewhere...
Alex

[iborg]

Hi All



I'll second Alex's comments.



Now I just have to do some photography!


Philip

[casstony]

You raise a good point Alex. I feel I might be needing to shift out of the beginners forum but I'm a long way short of the experienced guys, especially with processing and also equipment. What to do?

Maybe an intermediate forum or DSLR forum?

[Startrek]

I’ll always be a “beginner” due to the fact I started the hobby late in life, I most probably won’t have the opportunity to rack up 20 or 30 years in the hobby like most of the super experienced guys but hey that’s no big deal.
People ask me what do in your retirement ? And I respond, Amongst other things I’m an “amateur astronomer” and they say wow !! The word “beginner” doesn’t really matter to much then I suppose

Totally agree with Alex’s words of wisdom and encouragement !!
Well done Alex !!

[Ukastronomer]

I prefer the term Amateur Astronomer, someone new is an amateur, Patrick Moore considered himself an Amateur all his life !

[xelasnave]

Well Tony I think you certainly are perhaps past a beginner in terms of the quality you produce but you provide an excellent example of how dedication and time spent at the coal face produces excellent results.

..and so it would be a sad loss to see you going to another section of the forum simply because you have become just too good at what you do.

Maybe flit between the two.

My concern is to have folk just "lurking" to actually become members and post their efforts.

Its good for them its good for us...folk like me will die soon so we need to keep new folk joining...now I have no intetest from a financial point of view but I do think this site is a boon for astronomy and I do think astronomy is a magnificent pursuit.

We tend to forget religion has its foundations in astronomy.

In fact it is clear even the most treasured human god upon which our culture rests was actually a construction born from astronomical observation. ..the myth was built on astronomy ..twelve deciples equates to twelve constellations. ..the resurrection comes from observations of the Sun mid winter. ..if one studies the matter it is clear that asyronomy is at the heart of our cultures religions...I could go on but one either knows this stuff or not...but the point is astronomy gets humans thinking.

Not always with great results but it offers opportunity to wonder about ourselves and our place in the universe and surely irrespective of false religious conclusions the very act of looking at the sky must take one to a place of contemplation in which they at least think past their daily existence...and to do so can only be uplifting..in my view.
For me I am not really interested in presenting a photo to claim top dog status..and I bet if I decided I wanted that it would not be beyond me..I can win..it is easy for me...I have won so many times at si many things I no lo ger find winning has value for me... .no getting folk to join the fun is my priority...
Alex

[xelasnave]

Thank you but I bet all I have stated is what anyone would come up with if they had spare time on their hands.
Alex

[xelasnave]

Great men are invariably humble and recognise that not withstanding their elevation of experience and knowledge they are priveledged to understand that there is much more to learn and much more that will be beyond them and indeed beyond all humans for many lifetimes past their own.

I simply want to see on the one hand folk posting excellent results and on the other new folk posting their first attempts with confidence that they will be treated with repect and to enjoy an empathy as to the long journey upon which they have started.

You always have great ideas ..can you suggest anything we can do to make this section of the forum more inviting to folk who just hsppened by such that they feel happy to join in.
Alex

[Anth10]

Alex,
You are a thinker, encouraging and creative by a long stretch, I endorse your visions in trying to reach out to the many that read the posts on IIS but are reluctant to share their images in fear of being “judged”. I can see your point, one may feel their image isn’t up to scratch but hey the universe is there for all to ponder in its awe- we all start somewhere as you mentioned and no doubt there is much to learn from others that have sharpened their skills in astrophotography. I guess it’s a situation whereby those within the beginners section can say the same about posting in the higher format forums for similar reasons. It’s difficult to categorise or even quantify where you should or shouldn’t post but ultimately any post should be welcomed without prejudice and given constructive criticism to develop their skill set.
What you’re suggesting is something along the line of intermediate level perhaps and allowing members and guests to have more ‘confidence’ to throw questions and posts for their early images in the current beginners I suppose?

Alas, never feel unqualified / I can surely say the vast majority of us all are certainly not barring a few exceptions of course.

We all enjoy the beauty above- share, enjoy and embrace.
Anth:)

[RyanJones]

A good thought Alex. I’ve found in my very short Astro journey that there is such a massive gap between the beginners and the pros. I’ve gone from phone photos through a 4” MAK unfiltered to DSLR through an 8” Newt or 9.25 SCT with a relatively expensive filter. Every step of the way I’ve had eureka moments and then I’ve stepped up to better equipment and become total beginner again ( where I’m at now ). I just don’t know if you split into say beginners and intermediate, where you could draw that line. I do however totally support your notion of “ post what ever you have “. We have all started somewhere and in the same breath I think all members need to remember that and help new people as much as possible. This game is not easy and we all need to remember that and remember that a lot of people are operating on a budget. I’m sure if we all had the Hubble we’d be better but we don’t all have Russian hackers to give use control of it. Fantastic results can be had from modest equipment and with a little help one can become inspired to continue growing. Being critical of other people’s work can be helpful if it is delivered respectfully. I think the fear of being put down for having slightly bloated stars in your first ever image of a galaxy 20 million light years away is far more likely to keep people away than the fear of not producing amazing images like some other members on here. Remember where we all were when the light left the object we are imaging and stay humble.

[Ukastronomer]

Too much for me to read but I have read the first post

I PREFER to see so called "beginners" images, you tend to expect top quality from so called "advanced" imagers, and then hear the bleating because some little thing went wrong.

I would ask that religion is NOT brought on to a forum and does not have any proven it's history in Astronomy, the forum should be totally devoid of religion and politics

Back to imaging, many are put off by constantly seeing images they can only aspire to, to any novice out there I for one want to see your images please, I am fed up with the astro magazine hubble shots, sorry.

On that scope I agree with Alex, lets PLEASE see more of the amature shots, and perhaps mono images

[Ukastronomer]

Oh and sorry Alex if you check there are in fact 88 official constellations.

If you are in fact referring to the ZODIAC there were in fact 13 zodiacal constellations.

Contrary to popular belief, there are actually 13 zodiacal constellations, if you pay attention to the way astronomers define them. In addition to Capricornus, Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpius, and Sagittarius, the Sun also passes through Ophiuchus

But astronomers haven't made up new constellations for hundreds of years! When new stars are discovered, they are considered to be a part of whatever constellation they are closest to., no more religion please, there are in fact 4,200 recognized religions in the world, no one is more important than another

What is the 13th zodiac sign?

Ophiuchus (⛎) (/ɒfiˈjuːkəs/) has sometimes been used in sidereal astrology as a thirteenth sign in addition to the twelve signs of the tropical Zodiac, because the eponymous constellation Ophiuchus (Greek: φίδι-φορέας "Serpent-bearer"), as defined by the 1930 International Astronomical Union's constellation boundaries


.

[xelasnave]

Excellent coverage of the matter. Thanks for investing your time.I certainl enjoyed reading your post and I expect so will many others.
Alex

[Ukastronomer]

:) :) :)

All down to Google, not me

[xelasnave]

Noted.
However any casual study of mans history starting with ancient Egypt will show the relationship that I suggest. As I said and in an effort not to discuss the matter further one either knows about it or not. And its hard to ignore considering planets for example...they were not named after animals.
And the rules here are clear so we are not able to discuss the matter unfortunately.
Alex

[Ant0nio]

Well said Alex, this thread prompted me to take a look at my first images to establish how long I've been at this hobby & reflect on my journey so far. This may be of some encouragement for others out there.
I took my first images in Sept 2018 with a OSC CMOS which I now use as a guiding camera, I posted it in this forum on 26/09/18 here it is (the first image)
Five months later after purchasing the cheapest OSC CCD I could find & taking the plunge into autoguiding, I was able to post this image of the same target (the second of the two).
I would have to add there was a great deal of trial & error between the two but this serves to show what can be achieved in a relatively short time with modest equipment.
I still consider myself very much a beginner as I've yet to clock up a full year of imaging & my results are still somewhat haphazard, but the transition to the main forum is certainly something I aspire to.
There is so much to learn about this pursuit but by far the most important step I've taken was to post my first image on this forum, I hope this may inspire others to do the same.
Best,
Antonio

[Outcast]

I agree wholeheartedly Alex.....

If you lurking or shy to post your images because you think they aren't good enough, please, please, please think again & post them...

I consider my self a rank beginner but, like Ryan, I started my AP journey a little while ago... it started with very hit & miss shots of the moon, with a handheld iphone over an eyepiece... I posted that shot here & received praise & constructive criticsm & advice. I moved on to a small camera with a mounting arrangement to improve my eyepiece projection photos, then prime focus thru an SCT on an az/alt mount & now prime focus through a triplet refractor on an eq mount. However, still very much a beginner...

To those further along on your AP journey... & the majority of you already do this... remember when commenting, be nice, be gentle, be encouraging & be careful with jargon...

We all started at the beginning, we all produced rubbish that we were very proud of, as we move along the journey, we still have many failures & frustrations... share them... we learn more from failure than we do from success!!

The other comment I'll make is that I have seen comments from time to time in this & other threads information about what you need to do AP which is extremely daunting (from a cost & know how point of view) & an implication that you're wasting your time if you don't have all the gear... what utter twat waffle!! You can take images through an unguided scope using a handheld smart phone, you're just limited in targets & potential results... however, it's not 'impossible' nor 'a waste of time' as is occasionally implied... in fact it is a fantastic & very low cost place to start & should be encouraged....

So no matter what it looks like, how you achieved it, or what inexpensive equipment you used, please, please, please share it... because in general, the encouragement & knowledge sharing & advice you receive on this forum is phenomenal

Cheers to all that have helped me along my journey & a big fat raspberry to the few ( and, I mean very, very few) who indirectly, have implied in threads various that I might be wasting my time because I don't have the biggest mount, the best optics, the flashest dedicated & cooled camera because, you are wrong!!

Peace & clear nights to all you wonderful people...

[xelasnave]

Hi Calton
May I cmplment you upon a most inspiring post.
You raise a good point re jargon.
And I for one will be more careful and qualify terms... You need a good PA will change that's for sure.

The other night (although I did not post the result) given my success with accidentally using a high ISO (a camera setting regulating to light recognition of the camera) and finding I could get away with a ISO way way past anything anyone would dare to use...and as the Milky Way was directly above...I set the ISO to maximum, a crazy crazy 25600 set the camera to take multiple 2 second shots laid it down on the roof of the observatory under construction on a piece of board and let it click away...no mount not even a tripod..I really should have posted the result...so for beginners all you need is your DSLR ...so I hope that may start folk contributing such experiments.
And the photo I ended up with was pretty flash really...but I was tired and deleted it when I saw how the idea worked.

Alex

[Sunfish]

I agree generally about beginners posting more images. Less words as Jeremy suggests and more pictures with description of methods of capture. Perhaps what is really required is another section called Beginners Discussion and so all the extraneous words can be posted there.

[xelasnave]

I can do more pictures but I am cursed with rambling on and on.

Alex

[LewisM]

I'm 10 years now into AP, and I can tell you, my images are still carp, but I don't care - it's the joy of getting out under the stars and doing it. I have a maximum of 8 hrs on a target, and always think I'll get more, but never do :) Just the fact I have imaged it is usually enough.

If you make this hobby for YOU, and forget the opinions, derision or criticism of others, you'll enjoy it a heck of a lot more. I don't even pretend to believe my images are good, and I still chuck them in the Deep Space forum just for giggles :)

[Anth10]

Lewis,
Your pics aren’t carp mate! If I were to choose a fish to describe then a rainbow trout comes to mind- slick, plenty of colour and detail. Hehehe.
Anth

[Sconesbie]

I'll second your thoughts Alex. The first pic I posted here, some nice person took the liberty of "touching" them up for me. I was most appreciative and of course, had no objection. He gave me some tips too. I don't have a camera on my scope but the ones I took were simply DSLR pointing to a dark sky. I'm thankful and still to the day, show people the original one and then the enhanced one.

[xelasnave]

I am so excited that so many folk understand where I am coming from and I certainly hope there are new people reading all this and gaining confidence to post their early efforts.
Thanks to everyone.
Let the world know that Icenspace is a wonderful place to publish early days..er early nights...photos.
It is so wonderful to hear the many possible experiences being shared here.


Alex

[ChrisV]

I certainly understand where you are coming from Alex. Like some others, I feel like the eternal beginner and my gear is not uber-high grade (except my camera, but its only OSC). In fact I haven't posted anything for ages. I've got half a dozen images that I've been processing, reprocessing and agonising over for a few months now.

The thing I like about the beginners forum is that everyones' threads get commented on. And I like it that there mainly seems to be encouragment and constructive criticism. This makes it the ideal place for beginners like all of us. So I like to post both here and that other place.

[Ukastronomer]

Perhaps we sometimes forget that you don't need £000's of gear to take astro images, here is one taken with a 6Mp Canon DSLR EOS10D with 18mm wide angle lens on a chair

[Sunfish]

I don’t know, that was pretty concise and to the point. Perhaps a lot more people than you realise look at the images and appreciate your brief words of encouragement without posting themselves. So it helps that you keep it up.

[xelasnave]

Thank you Ray for your kind encouragement. I can almost hear those who I irritate saying ...oh please don't encourage him��.

Still I certainly hope my efforts and my accounts of how even at an old age with an motivation destroying condition should be no reason not to do your best.

I have a philosophy of being kind and encouraging to all I meet in the real world..particularly those folk who are invisible to most..the check out girls, the shopping centre cleaners...the guys who round up the trolleys...and it is so rewarding...to go to the shopping centre and have a guy in a turbine introduce his new co worker with pride that he knows me...the occassions where the waiter at a coffee shop brings me a sandwich and says...this one is on the house...to be in hospital and have even the doctors like you because you have treated them as delicate humans.
When I had my operation the tea ladies would bring me savoury biscuits with cheese when everyone else got two milk arroroots...and I swear that I got meals that were destined for the Superintendent ��.

One only has to look at all the sad faces in the croud to know that I little praise is much needed.

I see it this way..I have been extremely fortunate with parents who never pressured me to win and told me that all they xpected was for me to do my best and that single thing actually allowed me to win every competition I ever went in...I translate doing my best to near die trying but feel no pressure to succeed...funny really.

And be kind to all creatures..little spiders , the humble fly even things that bite and one can let them annoy you such that you casually lash out and kill them...don't be the one to take their short existence away from them.

And I do love this place and all the wonderful people so I try to help in the only way that I know how.

Alex

[xelasnave]

Yes..but Jeremy you are a professional photographer...and you have a chair:)

Please post details of your chair in the "show us your equipment" thread.

Good on you Mate.

Thanks for getting involved it is good that you do..not only this but for all your helpful posts.

Alex

[LostInSp_ce]

Well said Alex. I think Ryan and Carlton summed it up perfectly. Personally I've never once felt discouraged or offended by any posts here, if anything it's the complete opposite. I get just as much enjoyment from seeing the images produced by others as I do with my own. We're very fortunate to have a wealth of knowledge on here that can get anyone from A to B no matter what level they think they're at. Happy imaging!

[sil]

More sections? Less I say! Posts are whatever they are, no need to create a level hierarchy to cater to egos.