StarAid

[beren]

Price might be scary but interesting new product.........

https://staraid.ai/

[Dennis]

Nice find - yes, a little expensive though.:)

Cheers

Dennis

[casstony]

I'm feeling old - never know what new fangled gadgets kids will come up with next.
Looks good, but I hate phones - don't like having one with me all of the time.

[dikman]

$1600 Au.:eyepop:

[Nikolas]

Way too overpriced for untested technology

[xelasnave]

It sounds wonderful but price is over the top.
It can only be a camera and software...if you have plate solving that allows you to polar align ...add guiding software...still two only for sale which someone will buy...they probably have a few more tucked away however☺
Alex
Alex

[Hemi]

Looks nice, and would be useful if it all works. The asi air (never used one) does all the same stuff, but requires a cheap guide cam in addition. It’s also supposed to be more future proof, in terms of adding autofocus etc. it’s a fraction of the price as well.

H

[skysurfer]

I see in the specifications that it is only mains powered ?

https://staraid.ai/product/staraid-revolution/

In the specs I read a mains power supply which converts it to 6V DC. Why not 5V which is the standard voltage supplied by power banks without DC step-up converter.

And this: https://staraid.ai/features/


So my dumb SP single axis tracking mount would be supported ?
I thought it requires two axes controlling motors in order to guide at all ?

EDIT: I read the FAQ (https://staraid.ai/support/faq/) and saw I need (as expected) a BoxDorfer MTS-3 upgrade kit for the SP mount.
And it does not support off-axis guiding, which is a bummer to me : extra guiding telescope which is extra weight.

[beren]

The StarAid is now available outside Europe to select countries
like Australia. I went ahead and ordered one , for my situation
with a mount that requires decent polar alignment for visual
I”m hoping the features that this provides will be invaluable....
be interesting to see . Zsofia and Pieter where quick to answer
any questions , process and post . Hopefully next week I can try it

[LewisM]

HUH? SXP? No, it doesn't lol. Plonk, 4 star alignment, tracks all night dead centre even with a naff polar alignment.

You are just LAZY Stuart!

:rofl:

[beren]

:) True the SXP works a charm but decent PA helps , most of my backyard is blocked to sight the SCP so the StarAid should be very useful for me .....never want to drift align again

[casstony]

You should upgrade to a Celestron AVX Stuart, with the All Star PA :)
(10% off at Andrews right now)

[beren]

The AVX looks good , wonder how it compares to the SXP

[trent_julie]

I’ve been doing this for a few years now. In fact in won a telescope making award in 2017 at SPSP for a device just like this. My version acted as a finder and clear sky detector too. I’m glad to see someone has come up with the same style of device, o didn’t have time to convert it to a product, and the ROI wasn’t really there in the first place. It’s hard to get an original idea off the ground in Australia let alone the amateur astronomy market.

So good luck to them, but I suspect that they will be undercut by clever makers now that they have shown the idea. That’s why I keep my devices to myself now and up to 3 years (as it would seem) ahead of current tech.

Trent

[beren]

Had a preliminary run with the Staraid last night, no imaging just wanted to see how it works and interfaces with my mount. It was all easy and quick to set up with the App, have the mount connected and get the camera focused {through a ZWO 130mm FL mini guide scope}. Following the guide pointed the scope/mount at a patch of sky which was plate solved quickly and then adjusted the mount with the instructions/visual aids in the App. Once done {about 5 mins} I put in a 5mm illuminated eyepiece {800mm FL scope} and centered on a star, no RA/Dec drift after 15 mins, small amount of RA drift after 30 mins but no Dec movement. Tried the multi-star guiding, this was all automatic, with calibration etc, the App again has graphs to monitor. I usually
go by what a image sub looks like when it comes to judging guiding so I'm unfamiliar what the graphs and numbers the App was relaying but guiding seemed to be stable , will try with a imaging run tonight to see how it goes.
After finishing up I sent a email to the Staraid team with a few questions and had answers within a hour. At this stage the Staraid seems to work very well and easy to use, good news as well the team are developing more features and upgrades {ie;dithering}.

[OneCosmos]

I did send a pm about this but actually maybe the question should be asked here.

How can plate solving to do polar alignment work when the camera doing thd job is way off to the side of the mount? In my case, as I’m using a DSLR anc lens there isn’t even a finder bracket. The guidescope would be massively offset. Polemaster works because the camera is where it should be.

Chris

[Zuts]

it works great using Sharpcap or ASIAir ...

[JA]

In terms of polar alignment, since we are talking about aiming/aligning with The South Celestial Pole, a point which is at infinity in optical terms, the camera does not need to be right on or at the mount's right ascension rotational axis. As long as the Right Ascension axis & the Camera's optical axis are parallel, both axes will point to the same point in space. You will see this concept used with some mounts. Take the Skywatcher EQ8 for example: It does not have a centrally mounted polar scope but can be used with a side mounted polar scope.

Best
JA

[OneCosmos]

So, I took a punt and my Staraid Revolution arrived. That same evening I went out and did the quickest test just to see how it may work.

I have a Skywatcher EQ35 Pro and a Canon EOS Ra with my Sigma 105mm f/1.4 lens. I am using an SVbony 50mm f/4 guidescope -see pic attached. Actually the Staraid automatically works out the fov and fl snd reported 188mm so a little less than f/4.

NB I read subsequently Staraid don’t recommend a guidescope FL greater than 150mm although it will work with longer.

Because I intended only A quick jaunt outside to test I didn’t bother to:

Update the software on the Staraid
Add the counterweight bar to the mount.

Either one of these factors could have caused the slight issue I faced.

Firstly as soon as you turn the Staraid on it begins trying to find stars snd calibrate and if it successful it starts guiding. You do NOT need to connect to the unit via any method at all to configure anything or start it off -that’s its main selling point.

Initially however you do have to connect to the Staraid wifi access point and access the admin page in a browser because you’ll need to see a capture to find focus. Once done you can lock the guidescope focus in place and never touch it again and possibly never log in again either. There are reasons to do so though such as accessing real-time guiding graphs or performing polar alignment, telescope alignment, software updates etc

I first aligned the mount manually just using a compass and inclinometer as I always do. I then ran the polar alignment routine. The idea is to point the guidescope/telescope/camera lens/mount anywhere and it platesolves to find the exact location. I just left it all pointing to the celestial pole and it thought I was 2 degrees off -not bad for dead reckoning. I then clicked Alt and it shows you where your mount is in relation to the celestial pole which is the bulls eye in a set of concentric circles. You the move the Alt bolts to move the dot representing the mount position. At first no matter how much I turned them the dot didn’t move and I was close to the point of deciding it was hopeless. It didn’t help too that it kept losing lock and said I was moving too fast and to pause. This is despite the fact that I knew I was moving it many degrees in ALT with no impact on the dot whatsoever. I tried a second time with the sand result. On the third attempt I decided to move AZ first instead and that worked a charm. This time Alt also worked (no idea why) and the dot moved to the exact centre bulls eye.

I felt pleased with this and decided to start autoguiding. The damned insolent device simply couldn’t or wouldn’t calibrate. It kept trying giving different errors like ‘no movement’ in one axis of other, even ‘Wrong Movement’ at one stage! It then had the temerity to ask if the mount was tracking (it was). Now it was getting personal, positively rude actually��

At one point it did calibrate and I saw a guiding graphs but it disappeared almost as soon as it started and calibration started again, interminably.

This morning I updated to thd latest version of the software abc fixed the counterweight bar. I’ll try again tonight.

[Zuts]

I am interested in purchasing one of these as well, so looking forward to your next report.

Where was it pointing when trying to calibrate, at the SCP or somewhere else. Usually it is recommended to point to the meridian on the celestial equator before beginning calibration.

[OneCosmos]

I tried pointing at Peacock in the North East and the Celestial pole. The reason fir these choices was only that I didn’t have the counterweight bar attached and the system was way too heavy to not use one.

All ready for testing tonight. Software updated, counterweight on and balanced and set up in a more favourable location although Nundah is about 18 on the sky quality meter and there is a moon too.

[Zuts]

I don't think you can calibrate on the SCP as there would be insufficient star movement for calibration. According to PHD2

• Get a good calibration, then re-use it – Within +/- 10 degrees of celestial equator, (Dec=0) – Within an hour of celestial meridian

[Peter Ward]

I looked these with some interest, hence your experience is proving to be fascinating.
I wait with interest to see how you next session goes.

[OneCosmos]

So, last night was unsuccessful but I am not ready quite yet to blame the Staraid. I am coming to the view that it is in fact correct, there is no movement in DEC because the dec axis is quite simply not tracking on the EQ35 Pro mount!


This morning I had a thought that perhaps the orientation of the DEC axis mattered. Take a look at the two photos to see what I mean. AstroPete said though he didn't think which side the motor was on would impact tracking. Anyone? The mount is brand new.



This morning though I connected the mount in doors and did the initialisation in the synscan handset up to the point where it asked if I wanted to align and I said no then went to the Tracking in setup and selected Siderial. In theory then it is tracking. I left it running for an hour and the counterweight bar moved in that time but the dec puck didn't so I really do think it isn't tracking in Dec.


I took the plastic housing off and the gears look to be meshing and after all, it does slew and I see the gears working, but I left the plastic housing off and marked the position and nothing changed with time.


Once the mount is sorted, I'm optimistic the Staraid will perform. I have an open JIRA ticket with them but I have also told them the mount may not be tracking

[Dennis]

Hi Chris

When the Mount is just tracking at the Sidereal rate, only the RA Motor is active, the DEC Motor is not being commanded to move.

The DEC Motor will only activate and slew the Mount in Declination during a GoTo, a manual button push of the DEC Buttons or an auto guider correction command when auto guiding is active.

Thanks for the write ups, it looks like an interesting device.:)

Cheers

Dennis

[OneCosmos]

Hi Dennis, I don’t understand that. It has a dec axis and guiding happens in both axis right? If dec plays no part in tracking why would guiding in dec ever take place? On the Star Adventurer et al you can only guide in RA but on a full mount you have both enabled.

[Zuts]

If you are perfectly polar aligned the mount only needs to rotate in RA. Of course you will normally be a bit off and the mount may have error so guiding is done in both RA and DEC.

Where were you pointing when trying to calibrate?

[Dennis]

Hi Chris

There is Tracking and their is Guiding.

Tracking:
The Earth rotates once per day (23H 56M) on its axis and the RA Motor drives the RA Axis at this Sidereal Rate to compensate for the Earth's rotation and thus "keep up" with the stars.

If you are Polar Aligned, the DEC Axis should not need to be moved by the DEC Motor as the Earth's rotation is in RA and not DEC.

Guiding
Here, the mount is Tracking at the Sidereal Rate, but is also being additionally controlled by an Autoguider System which is monitoring a (calibrated) Star. If this Star drifts off the Calibrated Pixel(s), then the Autoguider SW will command the RA Motor and/or DEC Motor to make a (hopefully) tiny movement to return the Star to its Calibrated Pixel(s). This happens "on top" of the constant rate Tracking, via the RA Motor, which is just chugging along at 1 Revolution per Sidereal Day.

Tracking is "unintelligent" in that the RA Motor just purrs along to compensate for the Earth's daily rotation.

Autoguiding in "intelligent" in that it is taking feedback from the Autoguider System to nudge the mount to make small corrections to keep a Guidestar on a designated Pixel.

Does that make sense?

Cheers

Dennis

[Zuts]

This is also why you cannot calibrate close to the pole. If you draw circles based on DEC around the pole you see that the circumference of these circles gets bigger the further away you are from the pole. Since a guide pulse is the same length wherever you are pointing, a pulse close to the pole results in less 'apparent' movement than a pulse on the equator.

Auto calibration routines need to get a good estimate of a stars movement when sending the pulse. This is called calibration and if you are calibrating close to the pole the absolute movement of the star is not good enough to calibrate.

Your first guiding calibration should be on the meridian within 20 degrees of DEC 0 (the equator). This is what is recommended by PHD2 and my ASIAir pro which includes a guiding feature. Not sure how StarAid overcomes this if it doesn't keep a calibration so YMMV.

[OneCosmos]

Thanks Dennis/Zuts, yes that makes perfect sense. The odd thing is I haven't had calibration issues since the days of trying to use the SBIG software for guiding back when I had an ST2000 about 14 years ago. CCDSoft or CCDPOps I think it was was incredibly fussy and couldn't cope with things not being orthogonal.


Today we are used to PHD which doesn't seem fussy at all. I previously used the ASIAir with its version of PHD for guiding with the EQ35 (a previous EQ35 pro) and it always just worked no matter whether the scope was pointing towards the celestial pole or not.


It may be that Staraid is a bit less tolerant. I'm sure I did try with the camera (and therefore guidescope too) pointing elsewhere and it still failed to calibrate.


More than that it also failed to platesolve. I took a screen snip of what the camera captured when it then gave me the message "can't recognise the stars"! There are plenty of stars - this was looking towards peacock - Almost any software would plate solve that as a jpeg.

[Zuts]

I thought you said you managed to get the polar alignment feature working, this implies that plate solving was working?

Are you sure the FL of the guide scope is being recognised correctly and that the date/time etc is correctly set?

[OneCosmos]

Yes I got it working once. I’m trying again as we speak. This time with the dec axis motor on the same side as the RA motor and I have everything pointed to somewhere near Antares. It simply fails calibration because it says there’s no movement in Dec. see pic.

[Zuts]

try increasing the length of the guide pulse?

[OneCosmos]

At the moment, as much as I’d love to give this device a ringing endorsement, I simply can’t just yet. I have now spent three nights trying to get this thing work in vain.

I’m more than happy to accept I’m doing something silly but this device is extremely simple in essence. Connect to the guidescope and ensure it is focused, turn it on and do nothing else except image.

Plate solving is really hit and miss and completely confusing too. For example I click the ‘Recognise’ button and it starts capture and platesolving and 99 times out of 100 it will fail but if you go to another screen then back it tells you what your location as if it was successful all along! When it is successful I think great and click the polar alignment screen and it begins to platesolve again, but now if fails! Two seconds ago is platesolved the same patch of stars successfully - nothing changed but now it fails.

Random moving of the scope to different parts of the sky brings differing levels of success. If that’s what the problem is, I.e. it requires a very specific set of parameters, angles etc, it is simply too intolerant of regular conditions to be useful.

I look forward to hearing from Staraid themselves. I sent them the log file as re
Requested.

Chris

[Zuts]

I had high hopes for this, good luck and hope it all works out. Maybe you can find someone in Brisbane and try it on their setup...

[OneCosmos]

I need to try a shorter focal length guidescope because even their own documentation says you should use between 100mm and 130mm and implies problems at longer focal lengths. I’m reluctant to spend another $100 on a piece of kit based on only a chance that would fix it. Perhaps I can find someone who has one to try it out.

[OneCosmos]

I forgot to mention that on the autoguiding front I tried turning off DEC guiding and that made it work every time. I'm still uncertain therefore if that means there could be something wrong with the DEC axis of my mount or not.

[Peter Ward]

When troubleshooting gear for clients I go back to basics. i.e. to check the Dec drive is working actually look through an eyepiece while you press the Dec button (at guide rate) and check for positive star movement. Check the reverse direction for backlash etc.
Then exercise the autoguider to do the same. It doesn't take long to suss out what's going on.

That said, if this puppy is not working as advertised, I feel your pain. It's not the result you'd expect from that sort of investment.

[OneCosmos]

Thanks Peter. The DEC buttons definitely produce movement but are you saying set the mount tracking to guide speed (which means RA and Dec) and watch the star?


The other thing I have thought of doing is to borrow a regular guide camera off someone and attach it to my guidescope and use PHD with the laptop just to confirm calibration happens. If it does, the Staraid calibration process is just too fussy and if it doesn't the mount itself may have problems.

[Peter Ward]

Yes, set the mount to guide speed, then activate each Dec and RA relay in turn, while doing a visual check on a starfield that things are actually moving.

While gears and motors can turn, if you have a slipping clutch, binding shaft, whatever, not much will happen at the business end.

No movement means the problem is with the mount.

[OneCosmos]

Disappointingly, although I created a support ticket last Friday morning and added lots of info to it, Staraid support folks, (if there are any), have not responded at all thus far. I therefore have no further information. Is it too early to say I’m disappointed with customer service?

I still find it very hard to believe the device doesn’t work properly though because there are people, even in Australia that have no problems with it. Perhaps they pick it up differently to me, or are left-handed, or, or, or?

[Hans Tucker]

Do you know anyone around your area that has a different mount that you could try this on?

[OneCosmos]

I’m sure that is more than possible and will be something I try very soon. I’m also keen to try a shorter focal length guidescope.

[OneCosmos]

I have ordered the SVBony 30mm guidescope - because Amazon had it for $69 - cheap enough to be worth testing.


As disappointed as I am that I haven't been able to get the thing to work as advertised, I'm even more disappointed with their customer service and I'm not even convinced at the moment that their service portal is monitored at all - it may be nothing more than a cathartic front. I may be being uncharitable though as I only raised the case on Friday, but I think most vendors would have responded by now at least with a 'I'm looking at it and will get back to you shortly' message written by a support person rather than a computer.


Interestingly I submitted a request for info to them on 11th June and they never responded to that one either. ON their website they have a link to Returns, which is a different email address. I wrote to that too - no response whatsoever.


I have now written to FirstLightoptics asking for their help instead as the place of purchase.


Right now, I have to say be highly circumspect about spending money on this device - it was a punt that so far has not paid off for me.

[OneCosmos]

*update*

As expected FirstLightOptics in the UK are very responsive snd helpful but ultimately help can only come from StarAid who are completely ignoring any support cases raised. In fact they’re probably not ignoring so much as not even looking. The support process is purely to make them look like a real company. FLO have offered to try to contact them on my behalf but even their requests are going unanswered.

MY advice is do NOT buy the StarAid, if only because the company is totally unreliable and they do not take ownership of problems with their expensive product. Even if it starts working once I use a shorter focal length guidescope it won’t change the fact that StarAid are a disgraceful company that will not last long without mending their ways.

[Hans Tucker]

Just another avenue to try if you are active on Social Media FB

https://www.facebook.com/staraidautoguider/

[rrussell1962]

A long shot Chris, but....software update from 2020.

https://mailchi.mp/794ee6f45022/software_release_v164?fbclid=IwAR0C FSc0Lbk99NTbRiPNb0I8YJyeNctLWWFk8B6 kLf3AOXDVftxLV47QUrY

[OneCosmos]

Thanks Richard. I saw that but it is a much earlier version than I now have. I’m thinking the software is pretty much hard coded to work with a very specific focal length range. A resolution of that doesn’t absolve StarAid if their responsibilities to support their products though.

[OneCosmos]

Yup, I found that too and commented: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=28246000111140 61&id=2325242644383136&anchor_composer=false

[foc]

Chris, I have an interest in this device myself having ordered one a few weeks ago,
Have you thought of raising the issue in the Equipment or DSLR forums of other astroforums like CloudyNights? Even if the company is just a one or two man show, it seems crazy for StarAid to neglect the English speaking market, but there seems to be little evidence of any recent activity in English language forums like facebook or across the English speaking net. CN gets somecontributors and vendors from Europe and perhaps there has been more recent information in German or other non-English threads and a European CN contributer may know more.

[OneCosmos]

There is a thread on CN and I have contributed but so far nobody has responded to my post. I think FirstLightOptics (who have always been fantastic) are trying to contact on my behalf but they are being ignored too! They have said I can send it back to them if faulty, but I don’t know yet if is faulty or if it generally poor.

[OneCosmos]

FLO have themselves had no response at all from StarAid and StarAid have not responded to any of my messages on the support case. Rubbish company.

The 30mm guidescope arrived and I was able to test it yesterday. I witnessed identical problems to previous tests with the longer focal length guidescope.

This time though I changed the guide speed of the mount to first .75x without greater success then 1x which did mean now it would calibrate and start guiding.

Platesolving however quite simply doesn’t work. I checked in the live image capture and it was teeming with in focus stars (well from a light polluted garden at 18:30) more than enough to resolve. It couldn’t!

The other problem now that it would calibrate I experienced may be a problem with systems designed to automatically start guiding like this. I wasn’t using a remote camera control in this test so just manually pressing the shutter. That slight movement causes StarAid to stop guiding and start calibrating again! Very frustrating.

In any event not platesolving so no polar alignment etc means it’s rubbish and over priced doing guiding only (and very fussy).

First Light Optics are rightly treating it as non functional and arranging for DHL to collect for a full refund, (although obviously the $254 I paid here fir gst and charges is lost)

The alternative is now either. The original plan -the Lacerta MGEN-3 or back to the ASIAIR PRO which I believe now supports the Canon EOS Ra.

Only my opinion, but….DO NOT ORDER STARAID REVOLUTION!

[foc]

Sorry to hear things are still amiss with your StarAid device Chris, Just thought I would check if you saw Peteram's late response of the 27th to your query for help on CN. I am also looking at other options but the light weight single cable format of the StarAid would be nice if it can be made to reliably perform. At least you have a product for your cash, I still have no word to confirm that my payment will result in one.

[OneCosmos]

Yes I read it just now. I have also responded. Mine is all packaged up and FLO arranged for it to be collected by DHL tomorrow. I won’t miss it because even if it can be made to work by spinning three times snd clapping, life is simply too short to waste time trying to humour it in to action. Guiding is like breathing, essential but not worthy of attention, just something I expect to happen effortlessly. StarAid is a problem child that needs 24hr TLC!

I’m sorry you have nothing to show fir your cash but in truth nor did I. You will hopefully get a full refund from PayPal and you won’t be down the gst. When it arrived I had to pay $235 which is lost.

I now have to decide whether to return to ASIAIR Pro or try the Lacerta MGen-3. Anyone any experience using the MGen-3?

[AdamJL]

I sent them a question about this product on 7 January this year. They replied on 15 February.
Wasn't a good sign, so I steered clear and didn't buy anything. Hope you get your issues sorted quickly.

[LewisM]

10 years now using a Lodestar and either PHD or MaxIM guiding and no issues whatsoever - never failed to calibrate, never failed to guide (except with an HEQ5 mount that I found I was under-powering slightly). I use a 10 year old laptop to run it all, and that thing has never missed a beat either (just changed it's original battery today).

Gimmicks are usually just that, unfortunately.

Get a decent guidecam and run SharpCap polar align routine and you'll have NIL problems.

[AdamJL]

The concept is hardly a gimmick. People who hand guided might have said the same thing about autoguiding.

The idea is sound. The execution is not. Here's hoping someone else comes out with a similar product and can run a viable business with it. Anything that automates astrophotography is a great thing.

I'm waiting for consumer EQ mounts with motorised wedges next so they can polar align themselves.

This is all just engineering + software and we're in the right age for this stuff to be built.

[OneCosmos]

If I’m imaging with a proper telescope, like the APM 152mm and a heavy mount the setup is already massive so a laptop is hardly much effort on top and then I run SG PRO and phd. Perfect.

When I’m using a small mount, a DSLR and camera lens the whole point is simplicity and carting a laptop around is onerous. That is the point of devices like StarAid. If they worked flawlessly why would anyone bother with anything else? The problem is, they don’t.

[LewisM]

Chris, maybe just get a cheap, simple standalone Notebook or tablet to run it. I've done it before with the EQM35 and an incredibly light Notebook with only PHD2, SharpCap and Nebulosity installed on it. Worked perfectly. Weight? Stuff all, and ran off it's own battery and the jump pack running the mount.

[Zuts]

I used to use a laptop, however since moving to an AsiAir pro I am now a fan of being able to control the lot via your phone.

No dew problems, no requirement for a table, no leads as you can use wireless. Once you have got everything going, just slip the phone in your pocket. Ideal for a light mobile setup.

[OneCosmos]

Just as an update my refund arrived in my bank account today but I have still NOT had a reply to my support case. StarAid have completely disappeared afaik.

[beren]

New update for StarAid and news

[beren]

And more ……

[Dennis]

Thanks Stuart, this did look to be an interesting product that has potential to evolve over time, so I hope they can indeed recover from what appears to be the dire situation they found themselves in.

Cheers

Dennis