AG12 correction resolved

[Paul Haese]

It has taken nearly 12 months to go through every conceivable permutation of what could be causing the poor star shapes on the frames of the AG12.

First I obsessed about the collimation for months, many hours of checking and rechecking. Ensuring I was improving my accuracy all the time.

Then I went over all the adapters on the scope. I checked the ones that OOUK had made and the ones I had made by Precise Parts. A friend made an adapter and adjusted the OOUK ones to ensure everything was 100% square. The OOUK ones were not square and threads were running out by several thousandth of an inch.

Then I went over the installation and gluing of the mirrors in their respective cells. Making sure nothing was pinching or causing astigmatism. I found some astigmatism in the secondary but fixing that did not fix the problem.

Then I checked over the position of the focuser and the centre of secondary. That checked out fine.

In the end I took the advice of a friend who suggested that it was the corrector. I ran a laser through the corrector on a flat mirror and it was a little out. However when I ran the laser through the corrector and the scope at the same time it was significantly out. Even though the scope showed perfect collimation each time. So I ran another experiment which demonstrated that the threads on the Wynne corrector were too loose and not square to the line. I got a different result each time rotating the corrector around and using the tightening ring. After that I decided to use another corrector. I had to wait for some parts from TS in Germany which took some time but it confirmed what I was thinking. The OOUK Corrector is faulty.

The attached image confirms that theory. Taken with a TS GPU corrector. To boot it is sharper than the AG12 corrector. This image shows the corners and the centre. All looking good.

Now to get the corrector replaced or refunded for the cost of it. :lol:

[Rigel003]

Good news after an amazing saga. Most wouldn't have the patience to follow this through to a solution. Let's hope you get some financial satisfaction from the company.

[Slawomir]

Fantastic news Paul.

It was a long and not easy journey for sure, but now you have a beautiful perfectly collimated instrument and you must have learnt a lot about telescopes :thumbsup:

[Peter Ward]

I wish you luck with OOUK....but at least, to coin a timely phrase, you are now "moving forward".

[codemonkey]

That's awesome Paul, glad you finally figured it out. I'm still struggling with mine (ONTC newt), but I think I'm one step closer after some more experiments tonight.

[John K]

Gee Paul - sounds like climbing an Everest!

You are really good at this stuff - you should honestly consider starting a telescope tuning/repair business!

Look forward to the images.

John K.

[Bart]

Nice to see you have it sorted, Paul.

Its always good to solve one of those pesky issues!

[Stefan Buda]

Paul,
I could have warned you if I new that you were using an OOUK corrector.
When I was salvaging one of their "Hyper-Super" 10" ODK disasters, I turned up a jig on the lathe and screwed in the corrector so that the lens housing was spinning true. Well, one of the three lenses was running out so badly that I had to reduce its diameter by 3mm in order to bring its optical centre to the optical axis. With a meniscus lens even a small wedge error will displace the optical centre a lot more than one would expect. The OOUK people don't seem to worry about such things.
… and the spacers and the mounting of the lenses...

[strongmanmike]

Well, that's good and bad news I guess?...mostly good, as at least you know now that you can have a working telescope, just need to get a new corrector. Perhaps go with a non OOUK one ;).....

Mike

[LewisM]

Good God I admire your dedication Paul. By now I would have had Mike caber-toss it into the Molonglo.

A lot of money, frustration and grey matter finally giving results it should have out of the box.

[strongmanmike]

How to handle (https://pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/61612660) a defunct OOUK Wynn Corrector :D

[LewisM]

So, we can officially call you a tosser and be completely correct. Nice :lol: :lol:

[Paul Haese]

Thanks guys for the all the responses. It has been a tough time, but I had lots of good advice and ideas from quite a few people. I found that persistence pays off ultimately and yes it should have worked out of the box.



Lee I feel your pain. I made a map of the possible causes of the problem and then systematically tried every conceivable solution to the problem. Finally once all possible causes were eliminated it became obvious that is was the corrector.



Hmm not like climbing Everest John; and since you are the only person I personally know who has made the summit of Everest I am going to assume it was quite a lot tougher this this little mole hill.

I am not sure I would like to offer such a service. I can think of a few others who are infinitely better at this than me. Though never say never.



These are also my suspicions Stefan, that not only are the threads at fault but the lenses are causing problems too. I would be highly interested if you wanted to take a look at this for me though. Happy to pay for a fix too.



Yes those are my thoughts too Mike. At least I know I can use the scope and the optics do appear to be quite sharp. That is quite a relief :). If the corrector I have got cannot be fixed by someone here then I will be looking at something like a Paracor or maybe an ASA corrector which I believe are quite good. I don't think I will try to get OOUK to "fix" it, as that appears to be not possible.



Don't worry Lewis, there were several times I nearly did exactly that. I guess the important thing to remember is that I wanted good optics, a carbon tube, a sturdy primary assembly, a very stable focuser area and stable secondary. I got that but did not get the 50mm corrected field that the Wynne was supposed to provide.

[Stefan Buda]

I wouldn't mind having a go at it. If the lenses don't have too much wedge errors, I can rework the housing and make spacers that will hold the lenses in good alignment.

[strongmanmike]

What has been OOUK's suggested approach on the matter?

Mike

[Paul Haese]

Ok, can you PM me with your mailing address and I will send it ASAP. Thanks for doing that. :)




Mike, it's not so much any suggestion which, but their idea is that it must be operator error and I have not set it up properly. Based on what I have seen; the threads on the adapters they made from camera to the corrector, machining of the tube rings, anodizing, general attention to detail and stories I have heard would suggest that they will just simply send it back and say there is nothing wrong with it, when I know this is not the case. They don't want to acknowledge that their production is the cause. I had to provide photos of the tube rings to get two of them replaced. They knew there were 4 rings damaged but they only replaced two. :shrug: When I told them about that they said I did not tell them there were 4 when in fact I said all of the rings were damaged, they sold me the scope and did not know how many rings were sent :screwy:. It's just more behavior the like that Steve witnessed. It just becomes frustrating and annoying. So it is better to see if it can be fixed here (once again thanks Stefan) or if it can't move on and buy a large corrector which will work. :) I think you might have got the last of the good correctors.

[Andy01]

Well done Paul, your perseverance is a credit to your patience and drive!
What a p/r disaster that company is Australia though- gee I wouldn’t touch them with Mikes’ big caber after all that! :screwy:
You’re in excellent hands with Stefan though, and I’m looking forward to seeing some amazing images soon! :thumbsup:

[DaveNZ]

Fantastic result Paul. It seems a bloody long road.

I hoped going to OOUK from GSO would have solved your original issues.

Now Paracor or ASA corrector :question:

Dave

[alpal]

Hi Paul,
there seems to be some bad press about Orion Optics UK.
https://myastroshop.com.au/ssmassey/reviews/odk-10-review.htm


Here's their OOUK 3" Wynne corrector:
https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/orion-optics-uk-telescope-n-300-1140-ag12-carbon-astrograph-ota/p,57567


and they really carry on about how good it is:



So - how did Mike manage to get such a good telescope? -
is he using the same model corrector?
What has changed?


cheers
Allan

[gregbradley]

Now that makes it very clear why companies like AstroPhysics, Takahashi and a very few others can command such high prices. Their gear almost always works out of the box. Even Tak can have its focuser issues at times.

Greg.

[croweater]

They were afraid he would go over there and rip their arms off :lol:

[Paul Haese]

Mike bought his scope some years ago and this probably when they had better QA going on. His corrector is similar but slightly different. It is not as wide in diameter and has a different connection system to the camera. I believe there are no threads on the corrector, you bolt it onto the adapter.

That review will not be the only one that is bad. There are many complaints on Cloudy Nights Forum about OOUK. Mine is about to be published too.

[strongmanmike]

A disappointing road... but good to see you have discovered what your issue is Paul.

My Wynn corrector is the earlier (C. 2011) model, it is actually several mm wider (larger elements) than the current model and has no threads, instead it is held inside the Atlas focuser adapter with 2 X 3 nylon grub screws (https://pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/151108788) and the adjustable length camera adapter (https://pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/151108789) bolts to it.

Mike

[alpal]

Hi Paul,
the problem with writing a review is that there is always 2 sides to every story
and inevitably the suppliers side may not be represented fully.
In normal business practice warranty doesn't cover customers who have tampered or modified something.
Therefore how can a review be fair and impartial?


cheers
Allan

[OICURMT]

I LOL'd when I went to their website and clicked on "CUSTOMER TESTIMONIALS"... blank page

https://www.orionoptics.co.uk/testimonials.html

[Paul Haese]

Thanks Mike for clearing that up. I had thought your corrector was smaller. I was wrong. I also have the same 2 x3 nyln grub screws too and adjustable length camera adapter but the corrector itself has two threads at the camera end of the corrector. You have to screw an adapter onto camera end to attach a camera. The bolted idea was probably better to prevent tilt or at least be able to adjust it easily.




Allan, of course a review can be fair and impartial even when I have had to do repairs to get the telescope to work. Reviews are always what the consumers opinions are of a particular product. If I "tampered" with it to get it to work, then I am entitled to tell people what I think of delivered product. The review will be fair.



Now it says Our customer's value on what we brought them .. :rofl::rofl: Self praise is no recommendation.

[alpal]

Hi Paul,
looking at the previous review
https://myastroshop.com.au/ssmassey/reviews/odk-10-review.htm



The review didn't take in the perspective of the the supplier
or the amateur market price point.


I can speak for what I know about as I'm involved with
electronics every day.
There was a problem with the connector.
http://myastroshop.com.au/ssmassey/reviews/odk-10-wiring.jpg


That is a terrible solder joint & could never have worked properly.
I'm sure that Orion Optics must have been furious with whoever soldered it.
Orion paid for & trusted someone to solder that.
Imagine how Orion must have felt?

For a start such cheap connectors are not suitable for
a system requiring high reliability.
The RCA connector that the customer added was also not suitable.
You really need to have a MIL spec connector and cable e.g.
http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00aEjUFAutnmcZ/Military-Spec-5015-Straight-Plug-Ms3106A10SL-4s-2-Pin-Circular-Power-Connector.jpg
Such a MIL spec connector with proper solder joints &
suitably flexible strong cable would be far more reliable.
Notice it has a proper rubber cable sleeve protector used with a
2 screw cable clamp?
However - such connectors cost a lot of money -
they are difficult to find - and there is usually a MOQ on ones
like that out of China.

There is a nice used mating pair on Ebay:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USED-Cannon-AN3106E-10SL-4P-SOCKET-MS3102E-10SL-4S-MALE-PLUG-2-Pin-Mating-Pair/123720336206

here was the closest on Element14.
https://au.element14.com/amphenol-industrial/ms3102e10sl-4p/circular-connector-receptacle/dp/5391799?st=MS3102E10SL-4P

A plug is on Mouser:
https://au.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amphenol-Industrial/MS3106E-10SL-4P?qs=ddl61a4UcBaNHjyCCjSdTg%3D%3D

I am having difficulty finding a matching pair on one website.
The date book has 73 pages to wade through.

Then you need the right cable.
OK - so for Orion to use such parts they
would need someone to find the right parts that will match.
They need a person they can trust to solder them up
& put heat shrink over the solder joints -
then test the cable.
They need to set up a new supplier or suppliers in their system,
change their engineering drawings.
It all costs a lot more money.
So something that we might see is as simple as a connector is not so simple.
I have seen quite simple MIL spec cables like the one needed costing over $400
& complicated ones costing over $5,000.


Orion is appealing to the amateur market where not many people would
pay that sort of money.
If every connector and cable in a whole system was MIL spec
it would possibly double or triple the price of their product.
That doesn't excuse their bad soldering but I think I've made a good point.
Bad soldering happens and is something that is hard to stop
from ever happening again.
I've seen companies that can never get their soldering right
no matter how many pictures & emails I send them.
I don't think Orion is like that.


Amateurs could save a lot of money by buying a product
and later modifying it themselves with quality Mil Spec connectors -
as long as they are prepared to put a lot of time in and
have proper soldering equipment & experience.


cheers
Allan

[Slawomir]

I believe there were more issues with the scope in that review than just bad soldering? I have over 20 non-industrial cables (40+ plugs) in my setup that I set up/down for each session, and so far only 1 USB cord needed replacement after a few years of plugging and unplugging :shrug:

[Paul Haese]

Allan, whilst I did not have any issues with the fan wiring, I have had many issues with many components of the scope. Basics that OOUK should have known was present if they had decent QA systems in place. Just two examples were: The secondary offset was set at 14mm. The correct offset for a 110mm secondary and f4 focal ratio is 6.8mm This is based on the primary f ratio not the final ratio of the system with the corrector in place). The second example was that the all the tube rings had one bevel cleanly finished and the other looked like it had been taken to with a grinder (see image). How the hell does one miss that? Should I just simply put up with that crap? They are not angry or embarrassed. They just don't care about what their customers get. I have never once received an apology for any thing missing from the order or substandard parts.

Steve's review is fair in my opinion. He was the dealer for OOUK for quite some time but found that he was paying out constantly to meet warranty requirements of customers that had bought OOUK telescopes. I have spoken with him several times and everything that he experienced I have now experienced in terms of how OOUK address issues. Don't make excuses for these guys if you have not dealt with them. It's time they were brought to task over their BS.

[alpal]

Hi Paul,
I might have more to say later but I see a great irony in all this in that after
you've solved all your problems with this AG12 you might take some
of the best pictures you've ever taken.
If your AG12 primary & secondary is as good as Mike's then
it will be a beast taking on the world.


cheers
Allan

[Paul Haese]

The fundamentals are there fortunately. I hope I can get the corrector fixed and then have it working as it should. Time will tell. For now I have a working solution.

[alpal]

Hi Paul,

That's the thing -
if the mirrors are good then the rest can be ironed out.
If the carbon fiber tube is the same as Mike's then it
will hold focus & collimation, -
& the heavy focuser, camera & CC
will not tilt and cause errors.
If the primary mirror holder is the same then the mirror
will hold its optical figure at all angles and be stable.
I expect to see some top images from you soon.


cheers
Allan

[gregbradley]

I agree with Paul.

These days we all rely on accurate reviews to make informed decisions to get past false marketing claims. What is the actual quality of the product? That's what we want to know before buying not afterwards.

So a good review that is accurate is very valuable and will save others some grief - that's a good thing.

It will also help sort the market out so good producers get validated and shoddy ones go away.

Greg.

[alocky]

I think the really disappointing aspect is the complete lack of response from Orion to Paul. It’s not a bargain basement telescope, and I would consider it to be in a similar price band to the ASA telescopes, in fact, the two companies used some of the same components. I had some issues with my ASA 16”, for example, the coating on the secondary failed prematurely (and I suspect this was in fact from Orion optics). The difference is ASA we’re extremely apologetic and paid for me to get it recoated by Wayne Sainty without hesitation. Likewise, some of the more serious issues I had with the mount that were actually inherited from the previous owner they rectified at cost. This level of service should be normal from any manufacturer, not just a premium one. Our pursuit of a bargain has normalised some poor behaviour from the supplier!
Regards
Andrew.