Upgrade from EQ6 to ????

[Imme]

Hi people,

Just after peoples thoughts on what is the next step up from an EQ6 in terms of handling a little extra weight but also in regard to improved guiding ability.

I'm currently running around 14kg worth of equipment (FLT-132 scope) on an EQ6. The mount is permanent and in a ror obs.......I feel I'm on the edge of it's abilities though and could get some better guiding from something a little beefier

So what's the next step up? Does an EQ8 have good enough PE figures or should I be looking at something different?

I'm not looking at 'future proofing' as I doubt I'll go bigger scope wise from where I am now.

[billdan]

For a 50Kg payload mount you can't beat the EQ8 for value for money and it has local support via Bintel. I haven't read anybody bad mouthing the EQ8 so it should be OK.

There is also from China the Ioptron CEM60 which can handle a 27Kg payload. Not sure about local support though.

Then you have the American Tanks, like the Paramount Mx+, Astro Physics AP1100GT, and Losmandy Titan that can each handle 45Kg payload.

Or you could look at the exotics from Europe that can be used for unguided imaging, like the ASA DDM85 direct drive mount which can take 45Kg. 10Micron has a good reputation but these are all expensive.

The main consideration for choosing a mount is how quick it can change direction when guiding in DEC without having to wait for the backlash to catch up.
The biggest shortcoming of the EQ6 is its backlash in DEC is terrible.

EDIT: I would have recommended the Mesu 200 that I have, which has no backlash, but my model is now discontinued and the new version needs a special pier with a bended knee or a wedge set for your latitude.

Cheers
Bill

[Imme]

Cheers Bill

Will keep it all in mind.

Is the EQ8 up with the field in terms of quality and tracking ability?

[billdan]

Having never owned an EQ8 I can't answer that, but maybe an EQ8 owner will chip in and give you his review.

[Peter Ward]

Unfortunately many manufacturers ignore the inertial moment of your Tube assembly when quoting payload.

In a nutshell, a long refractor can easily reduce the stiffness of say a 50kg
"rating" , to half that number.

Losmandy's new G-11T has great bang for buck IMHO and has much better tracking accuracy than say the EQ8.

[brisen]

Hi Jon

I upgraded from an EQ6 to EQ8 and am very happy with the mount. Tracking is good and I can get up to an hour per image guided with consistently round stars. With good PA I am getting RMS around 0.3” with Phd2. This is with an Esprit 120. I have a 12”rc that will be going on it as soon as I get a chance and the weather clears enough to get the system operational.

Brian

[Imme]

Thanks Brian, appreciate you taking the time to add to the post. The eq8 is attractive (if you can get your hands on one!)

[The_bluester]

I keep wondering about one down the track, but they do seem to have some issues, mostly related to being built to a price. Things like backlash in Dec of the same sort of order as an EQ6. I have wondered about chasing a secondhand one and then just run it a bit unbalanced like I do the AZEQ mount to avoid the issue.

[casstony]

How about the Celestron CGX with its spring loaded worms? The mount head weighs about 44 pounds.

[Terry B]

I upgraded a long time ago from an EQ6 to a tak NJP. It is a vastly better mount. Big mounts do come up second had at times. Worth keeping an eye on the classifieds.
Terry

[Imme]

Don’t worry terry....I’m watching classifieds closely!

I hear strongmanmike has a mount sitting around in the obs now he’s purchased a new one.....hmmmm???

[Andy01]

I also moved up from a well pimped, belt modded & hypertuned EQ6 to a well loved/pre-used Tak NJP - price was around $3k and it’s solid, as in battleship solid. Probably takes up to 70-80kgs easily.
Maybe make Mike a too good to resist offer 😊

[Ukastronomer]

Are people saying then that the EQ6 is not worth having ???

[bojan]

No - they are only saying some other mounts are better.
Generally in life, there is always something better.. if you can afford it.

There is a difference between terms "better" and "good enough"
I have 2 eq6's and I am keeping them both, as they are good enough for what I am doing.

[Imme]

No way he’d sell it I think.....if he did he wouldn’t have a door stop for his bedroom door anymore!

[Imme]

Hi Jeremy,
Don’t get me wrong, the 6 is a great mount and has worked flawlessly for me. I’m in a position where I have a few spare $’s and thought I may as well spend it on a quality mount that in reality will be the last mount I ever need to buy.

[billdan]

Hi Jeremy,

This is probably my fault for giving you that impression, but the EQ6 is a very good mount but it does have limitations when it comes to guiding in DEC.

As you can see from the attached PHD graph that the EQ6 has difficulty reversing direction in DEC and more and more pulses are sent from PHD2 to get the EQ6 to overcome its backlash.

The workaround for this is to deliberately set the polar alignment so as the stars always drift in one direction (e.g North) and this way the DEC guide pulses are always in a Southerly direction and it has no reason to reverse direction.

Given all of that this graph is not bad with a total RMS of 0.77 arcsecs.

Cheers
Bill

[Merlin66]

As you already know, the NEQ6pro is a great workhorse.
I've been very happy with mine for the past ten years.
Loaded up with a C11, spectroscope, four cameras, electronic finder etc etc
I can easily guide on a 20 micron slit for as long as needed. Usually minimum of ten minute subs (not because of the guiding, but local light conditions)

[The_bluester]

To date I have been running my mount deliberately unbalanced to help with dec backlash. I figure that if the steppers, belt drives and worms are able to tear ports out of cameras in the case of a cable snag they can probably live with a newton meter or so of imbalance.

[Camelopardalis]

I find that mine guides better with as close to perfect balance as possible. Only occasionally see serious Dec deviations. It's not like it wreaks havoc every 5 minutes or anything :lol:

[bojan]

This is not a surprise - all depend on how well the worm is adjusted against worm gear.. in other words, how small the backlash is.


NB: replacing shims and lapping worm with diamond paste ("ultra tuning") could further increase tracking/guiding accuracy.. so the decision point to upgrade to larger mount could be further removed... unless the weight of the load becomes too large for the mount to handle (in other words, when shafts start to bend noticeably)

[brisen]

I still have my eq6 and dont have an issue with it, I just upgraded to the eq to future proof when I got a really good deal on a new eq8. I could get 1 hr when I tried pushing it to see how far I could push it with guided subs with the eq6. I have and never found dec backlash to be a major issue with it and I have not changed anything on it -it is as it came out the box. I have found that good balance definitely helps it. Similarly with the eq 8 I have had no issues with backlash. The tracking and guiding though is much better and I can routinely get eccentricities down around 0.40 on 30 min subs with with PHD2 guiding. Not sure if running t point has made a difference as I haven’t tried with out it yet.

Brian

[The_bluester]

I will say that I am pretty happy with my Orion AZEQ6 clone. The couple of 20+ minute subs I have done with the SCT on it I managed round stars, but a whiff of wind makes it pretty challenging at 1500MM+ focal length.

Unless I find myself needing a second mount (Depends on how much the young bloke catches fire on this) I have not got any plans to upgrade short of a lottery win.

[Imme]

As I said, the eq6 I have is a great mount and does what I need it to do day in and day out.

I suppose what I'm looking for is something that is a little more forgiving. I'm pushing mine to more or less its limits weight wise.....I'd rather have something that can 'do it easy' to ensure the mount can never be blamed for a poor sub

[Ukastronomer]

I ask because l am not able to afford $5000 and am looking at the AZEQ6 and if they say the EQ6 is bad then I am in trouble as it is my limit

Thanks

[Imme]

It’s a great mount unless you’re going 15kg+

[Ukastronomer]

Esprit 120 triplet

[bojan]

EQ6 will carry more than 15kg.
It is more important to specify if setup will be used in open, and what size of the telescope will be mounted on it.

Esprit 120 triplet is smaller than Newt, so it will be less affected by wind.


I intend to use one of my EQ6 permanently mounted under the dome, carrying 10" Newt (>18kg). - and I do not expect problems with that.

[Ukastronomer]

many thanks

[raymo]

Jon, your payload is not pushing your 6 anywhere near its limit; the HEQ5
and NEQ6 family are conservatively rated. There are people out there successfully running 10" Newts on HEQ5s and 12" Newts on NEQ6s.
I ran a payload of approx 13kg on my HEQ5 for almost seven yrs without a single weight related hiccup.
raymo

[Imme]

For photography work?

My understanding is half quoted payload max is the aim when doing long exposure work.

Like I’ve said though, the 6 is a great rig and does it’s job without a hiccup....but, due to a recent cash injection to my bank I thought I may as well buy a high quality mount that will last the next 20 years and handle whatever it is I throw at it. If I didn’t have the obs/pier then I wouldn’t even think of upgrading....just taking the opportunity while I can.

I also have an 80mm scope/camera/etc which I’d love to be able to mount together with the flt132. I guess I’m looking for something that when it is all kitted out will hold around the 25kg mark and track without a hiccup.

[Camelopardalis]

Ahhh I love those gems of infallible internet wisdom :lol:

A mate of mine frequently chases targets with an 11” Edge HD (2800mm focal length) riding on an AZ-EQ6. It doesn’t miss a beat.

Indeed, I’ve even imaged with my Edge 11 on my NEQ6 (much to my shock/horror) and was readily getting 10 minute subs.

While an expensive mount is always nice when $$$ magically appears in your bank balance, it’s not the be all and end all of imaging, especially these days.

The days of needing to take “long” exposures are gone, camera technology has moved on such that 5 minutes is a long exposure, and their sensitivity into the near IR is such that even narrowband is no longer a long exposure challenge.

And don’t forget about our old favourite, atmospheric seeing. Unless you regularly get nights of exceptional seeing where you are, chasing targets with a long focal length scope probably wouldn’t turn out very rewarding a lot of the time.

I guess what I’m trying to get across is...consider what you’re trying to achieve and invest in the pieces of the puzzle that will give the best bang for buck...I’m not suggesting you shouldn’t buy a bigger mount btw, just crunch the numbers and see what will have the greatest impact on your workflow.

[raymo]

Hi Jon, There is no hard and fast rule for the percentage of rated capacity
to be used for AP; if you could look back at all the relevant posts on IIS, you
would find most recommendations would be between 60 and 75%. The
problem is that mounts are not created equal within their own particular category, so that one brand/model might be fine at 80, or even 90%, but
a different brand/model within the same category might only be good up to 50 or 60%.
Weight is only one factor; just as important is the windage and cantilever effect of long OTAs, for example my HEQ5 handled an 11" SCT quite well, but a 10" Newt vibrated in anything above a very slight breeze, even though in
this instance the cantilever effect didn't rear its ugly head.
If you have the opportunity to get a higher quality mount, go for it.

raymo

[Ukastronomer]

This is a MOST helpful thread thanks to the starter of it.

You see I am confused.

The Esprit I have is

"OTA Weight 9.61kg (without accessories), 12.13kg (with accessories)"

The "Sky-Watcher AZ-EQ6 GoTo Mount" says

Payload Capacity: 25kg (EQ and AZ modes)


?????????

[Ukastronomer]

Thanks for starting this thread, most informative

What about the HEQ6

[Imme]

So who has an NJP for me....

[Atmos]

As Peter mentioned a lot earlier on, a lot of it has to do with moment arm more so than overall weight. Putting a 12" F/4 newt on an EQ6 may be pushing the stated weight capacity and still work perfectly fine but a similar length F/7-8 triplet refractor will have other issues due to its length. Pushing the weight means that wind becomes far more of an issue.

When I was using my 130mm F/5 refractor on my EQ6 (when I had one) even a slight breeze was noticeable against the guide graph which would impact on my overall RMS and although probably still give me round stars, they may end up larger due to more movement.

A couple of years ago I upgraded from an EQ6 to an ASA DDM60 and it is by far my best astro purchase. Was it cheap? Hell no. Was it worth it? Hell yes.
It only has a rated capacity of 25kg like the EQ6, its about the same size and weight but I have used it in 40km wind gusts out in the open without guiding for 5-10 minute exposures and still had perfectly round stars.

For me, unlike a lot of people, I spent most of 2018 photographing 30-50 targets a night and I can do that without having to guide or plate solve but also be assured that my pointing is within a couple of pixels on every target being centred across the sky.

The EQ6 is excellent value for money and I am looking at getting an AZ-EQ6 in the future for visual but it is built to a price point. I found that some nights imaging with my EQ6 (which was belt modded and hyper tuned) it would work perfectly and I'd be getting a 0.5 RMS all night but on other nights it would have sucked up a bag of gremlins and it would be a nightmare.

One of the hallmarks of good equipment, whether it be software or a mount, is that it blends into the background, you don't think about it and it does it's job. This is something said commonly about the AP Mach1.

[Ukastronomer]

That answers that then, the AZEQ6 is perfect for me as I don't image

Thanks

[The_bluester]

To Filch one of my own photos, this was taken on the Orion version of the AZEQ6, at 2200mm with the C925, and 5 minute guided subs. The only significant out of round is related to the coma inherent in the SCT design so I just have to live with that or spend a lot more money.

I have got round stars at 10 minutes with the same setup but there was too much by way of saturated areas so I went back to 5. I have managed a couple of 30 minute guided subs with a reducer on it for 1500mm and round stars. Gusty wind and that all goes out the window of course.

The usual caveat of mass produced gear, provided you get a reasonable one I reckon the AZEQ6 and EQ6 class mounts perform well for the money.

EDIT: I am a twit and did not add the link!

https://cdn.astrobin.com/thumbs/e1WIn1b1PQkj_1824x0_wmhqkGbg.jpg

[Merlin66]

Ok, Ok we all like our NEQ6 mounts.....
Let's answer the original OP - what are the other options currently available for larger mounts???

[Imme]

Thanks Ken!

;)

[Atmos]

The most important question is.... What's your budget? There is the EQ8 as you've already looked at. In the same weight class there is the AP Mach 1 (Mach 2 being released), Mesu200 (V2 coming out), SB MYT, Losmandy G11, 10 Micron GM1000. That's what I can think of off the top of my head right now.

[Wavytone]

Add iOptron CEM60 and CEM120, if you're feeling brave.
Takahashi NJP...

[Imme]

Around $5k....although that’s ‘fluid’ for the right mount.

I’d love an NJP. I’ve heard/read/seen good things with them. I’ve tried to get hold of mikes old one but he won’t pass it on unfortunately......so still searching!