Saturn with 12x60 binos

[BSirius]

G'day all,

Been a clear night down here. Looking at Saturn (near Leo, I think). Thought I could just make out a line for the rings. Am I dreaming with 12x60's?

Cheers,

Ben

[duncan]

Hi Ben,

Probably not. I guess it comes down to how good your eyes are. Through my 12x50's i can definately tell saturn. Again just a tiny bit of line.

Cheers,
Duncan:thumbsup:

[maksutover]

No your not dreaming at all mate! I can clearly make out saturn using my binos, albeit its a bit stronger than yours (40x70) but have a go.

Cheers.

[Dennis]

Hello,

Through my 12x50 binos, I can clearly see that Saturn is extended in the plane of the ring system. When I have the bino's mounted on my bino mount, my mind tells me, or interprets the image such that I can resolve the rings – only just. I am not certain if this is wishful thinking based on seeing the planet through a 'scope, or whether I am actually seeing the real extension of the rings.

The bino’s are Leica 12x50's so optically they are very nice.

Cheers

Dennis

[BSirius]

Thanks guys,

If I didn't know it had rings I probably wouldn't have noticed, but I reckon it was a faint diagonal line from the Gemini side down to the Leo side.

Mmmm... maybe I need stronger binos, or 8" dob... or more imagination...

Cheers,

Ben

[erick]

In my 12x60s I know it is not round - a nice yellow football! I need to go to my 20x80s before I can convince myself I can see the ring system and the gap between rings and planet.

[BSirius]

Hi Erick,

What's the jump to 20x80's or 30x100's like? Can you see features on Saturn or Jupiter? I can see what I think is M42, sort of hazy cloud in Orion too, just wondered what power is better to resolve some of these...

Cheers,

Ben

[yagon]

40x70 :eyepop:

where does one get a pair of 40x70 binos?

[Dennis]

Both planets are easy in my Vixen 30x125 giant bino's.

Cheers

Dennis

[erick]

I'm at the cheap end of the market. Bought both from AOE - $129 for the 20x80s and $419 (I recall) for the 30x100s. No, I don't see surface features on Jupiter or Saturn. I've got more testing to do with the 30x100s, but these particular ones don't do as better a job on Saturn as I had hoped.

But for nebula like M42, these bigger binoculars are great! But don't expect to see the horsehead or flame nebula through these binoculars. And faint nebula and galaxies are smudges - but great to be able to know that you have found them and seen them. They were also great to see the coma of Comet McNaught up much closer. And the Moon is a great sight as well.

Re M42 in 12x60s - they should do a better job than you describe. Suggest you find a dark sky location - from the big city, M42 is not going to be great. Then practice averted vision - you'll see more that way. Same for Omega Centauri and 47 Tuc globular clusters - have you located those as yet?

[toetoe]

It's great fun with binocs Ben, a lot easier to look at this and look at that so you can make yourself a list of things to view with a telescope at a later date, (thats what i try to do) but with binos stability is everything, are you using a mount or something else??. I think one gets a false impression of Saturn if your binocs are not mounted on some type of mount but thats just me.

[DobDobDob]

Just to add my couple of cents worth, I have 20x80 Triplets and I can't see any separation in the rings of Saturn, but I can see the rings. M42 comes out super clear for me, at my reasonably dark site. I clearly see the nebulous gaseous region with two extremely large and bright stars close together with a number of other smaller stars in the region. I am recalling this purely from my memory not observing notes from my diary.

I can tell you that M42 in by bins looks awesome, especially when the seeing is extra good, on the night I last looked and saw it, it was amazing and I only regret that I am not advanced and setup enough yet to take a photograph.

As eric has mentioned some celestial objects are stunning, I saw 4 clusters in 30 minutes, last week and each one was uniquely different, I have not drawn (sketched them) but am seriously thinking of doing this. Each one has some characteristic about it which is slightly different from the next.

It is hard to describe the subtle and minute changes in words, because primarily those changes come in the form of density of stars, there magnitude at the centre and in the edges, the overall shape and something I have started teaching myself to do is to spend some time looking near the cluster i.e. looking at the surrounding area.

If the surrounding area is almost totally devoid of stars, then the cluster itself stands out more and has a more defined outline or shape. On the other hand if it is jammed in close to other features, it tends to stay in your memory for the combination of the clusters actual design as well as it's immediate surroundings.

I have not spent much time yet observing through my binoculars because the weather has been lousy most of Jan/Feb here in Sydney, but I am determined to observe intelligently.

Let me explain that a little. 8 years ago I had a stint of two years doing astronomy, mostly theoretical for study I was doing, therefore the actual observing was to accomplish a certain credit towards a pass mark. I did of course enjoy it but my motives were clear and when the study finished I moved away from astronomy. At that stage I was not truly into it.

Then of course when McNaught inspired the peoples of the planet, I too was swept up once again but this time for the right reasons, for the sheer beauty and adventure of it, not because it was beneficial for me in terms of getting better grades.

So now when I observe, I have this belief that I don't just want to look at a group of stars, but I really want to study it. I start on the baseline premise that no two clusters are the same and indeed they are not. I want to see then record the differences and when I return at a later date, I have this sense of reacquainting myself with an old friend.

I know that what I have written here would sound dumb anywhere but an astronomy forum, however I believe that to some degree I am on the money and that most people here consider their DSO's as old friends, some better friends than others.

No I am not crazy but when I am alone I find myself looking up at a star and saying hello to it (No it's doesn't answer back yet). Perhaps I am not like others in this group, perhaps I am a lone Looney, but I rather think that we like our stars, and express some degree of affection for them, even if we would not actually say that unless amongst other like souls.

All I can tell you is that I have binoculars, not a lot of money, about 1/90th of the price of my car and it is the singularly best money I have ever spent and it has given me the heavens and the earth and a lifetime of imagination, wonder and fun.

If you stay long enough on each object and think about what you are seeing and in your head say what you intend to write down, I find it helps me. I only use normal words like big, very big, bright, round, football and so on, I am after all just an ordinary person so I speak to myself (think) using the same words that I can readily relate to and recall later when filling out my diary.

This gets back to my original point that you can see great detail in some objects up to the limits that your equipment can handle, however if you don't spend long enough on each object and really take a serious analytical look, you may actually miss seeing detail that is there.

Like having your equipment clean and in good working order, well adjusted so too do you need to be in good shape. I believe you need to be in the right mood, stress-free and ready to see great details. Once in this phase, after your night vision fully kicks in, you can see plenty through good binoculars.

I don't know good from bad with respect to binoculars, I just know that with mine I can see a great deal, but I need to always be mindful that I place myself in the best possible position to see details, this means geographically as well as personally.

I apologise for drifting on and off topic several times, but I think that sometimes the problem is not necessarily the equipment, but could be the mood or circumstances the observer is in. For the great view, the perfect view, all things have to majestically line up, the seeing excellent, good equipment and most of all, an eager and appreciative observer :thumbsup:

[erick]

Show-off!! ;)


I bet they are fantastic.

[BSirius]

Excellent elucidation Tailwag!

I understand what you mean about your approach to "observing intelligently". I have always been interested and amazed at the incredible sights available, and my enthusiasm would tend to push me ahead of myself.

My plan this time is to start with the binos and learn the sky. I've got my parallelogram mount working with a set of survey legs and that has made heaps of difference. I'm in town, so I will try and scout out some darker skies without being too far from home.

I've observed M42 a couple of times and appears as a whispy cloud around some pinpoint stars. Did this a couple of nights in a row as I initially thought it might have just been a cloud). The Pleiades look spectacular and I can see Saturn as a yellowish football. I'll try the averted vision thing erick talked about. I found a small cluster near the Southern Cross, but haven't found Omega Centauri and 47 Tuc globular clusters yet. I think someone compiled a binocular list? I'll try and work through something like that.

Have started using Cartes du Ciel, which is excellent, and with my planimetric map, I'm getting around the sky slowly, building up a bit more each night.

You've inspired me to get the observational diary going. I'd thought about it before but have been slack. I can see a big benefit for reference and learning and as toetoe suggests, I can start to build up a list of things to view with a telescope later.

My long term equipment plan was:

1. Binos 12x60 and mount (tick)
2. 8" Dob for observation (and maybe muck about with a webcam or try and stick my EOS350 to it...)
3. 80 or 100mm ED Refractor (one day for pics)

Wondering if I should put in a 1a of a bigger set of binos, but I think I will use these ones for a while. Now I can start to see some of these features, I think, wow, what if I had just a little be more...

Good fun though... thanks guys...

Ben

[Dennis]

They are very nice, a bit old fashioned in terms of sheer size and bulk, weighing in at 11kgs. There is a bit of CA around the brighter objects and the FOV is only 1.6 degrees.

A nice feature is the 45 degree eyepieces which make viewing at the zenith more pleasant, but still not the same level of comfort and ease as a motorised reclining bino chair.

Under dark skies, M42 and Eta carina are simply stunning, literally out of this world.

Cheers

Dennis

[erick]

These ones, Dennis? :scared:

[Dennis]

Yep, them's they alright.

The forks also drop back to 45 degrees (Allen key and socket head cap screw) to help with accessing the zenith.

Now if only they were on a motorised chair…..

Cheers

Dennis

[DobDobDob]

Off the top of your head (save me Googling) what are they worth roughly?

[DobDobDob]

Thanks Ben, it would appear we are on very similar journeys, good luck with yours ;)

[DobDobDob]

Did you use a plan to create your parallelogram? I am going to investigate making one, if I can't buy one from somewhere.

[snowyskiesau]

Are you looking to make a mount from timber or aluminium?
I've recently made a parallelogram mount from timber (see pics).
I've removed the temporary counterbalance weights pending installation of something
more adjustable. This is in a vice in the workshop so I could take a photo.

I got the ideas from this site:
http://members.aol.com/scottw8088/binoc.html

[BSirius]

Just roughed one up out of some standard bits of aluminium tube from the harware shop.
Cut and folded some flat pieces up to bolt them too, and it works well, still needs a little refinement though. Got some ideas from http://home.wanadoo.nl/jhm.vangastel/Astronomy/binocs/binocs.htm but didn't follow them too strictly.

I can post a pic and draw out some dimensions if you're interested, but it's not as sophisticated as some of the other designs I've seen around IIS. It's probably cost me $25. The survey legs I'm trying are borrowed, so still have to buy those yet...

Ben

[DobDobDob]

I have a very sturdy tripod, I just need plans for the parallelogram itself. I can see from your photograph that it is basically timber strips, with holes drilled, bolted together with a wingnut and bolt assembly.

You see, I am the most un-handy person in existence, the only reason I build the dew shields so successfully was because every single step was clearly outlined and displayed in both words and images. I need this type of step-by-step detail, so I can follow it. I need to know the lengths of the timber, the diameter of the screws and so forth.

Women would call me the most perfect example of an 'MM' (Mere Male) :rolleyes:

[DobDobDob]

Thanks Ben, this URL looks interesting, I just skimmed the article, I'll go back and have a detailed read of it now - thanks :thumbsup:

[snowyskiesau]

Here's a picture of an aluminium mount that looks pretty easy to make.
http://home.att.net/%7Edale.keller/atm/binoculars/keller/kellerbino.htm

No detailed plans though.

[DobDobDob]

Thanks Geoff, it looks good too, plus there are some dimensions, see this link for example: http://home.att.net/~dale.keller/atm/binoculars/keller/keller44.gif (http://home.att.net/~dale.keller/atm/binoculars/keller/keller44.gif)

I can see this project taking off very soon, I am mustering up confidence all the time, with each new link, examples and description, I am one step closer to trying my hand at making one. This is akin to someone with arachnephobia being asked to sleep in a cage full of tarantulas, me and DIY should never been seen in the same sentence.....but I am warming to the idea :P

[Geoff]

Hi All
Just read the bino's articles. I have a pair of 25X100, a cheap pair I guess ($500). I built a motorized chair for about $100 with Junk I had and a couple of purchases. The most expensive part was the Matress in the chair $40.
I will put some photo's together and a brief explanation and send to Mike for the projects section. I just looked for the photo's and can't find them quickly as they are amongst my hundreds on several drives. I must sort them sometime.
I'm looking at building a second bino chair with larger binos, but am not sure if the 45 degrees on the binos will be a problem with a chair. Mine are straight through.
Cheers
Geoff :)

[BSirius]

Thanks Geoff, keen to see the pics...

Cheers,

Ben

[DobDobDob]

Yeah me too Geoff, images always help ;)

I had a few good hours observing last night with my binoculars, it ended up I had 5 highlights, firstly Saturn was as clear as a bell, and I could easily see the rings, it was fantastic, I stayed on it for 20 mins, then I saw a very faint globular cluster, it was a perfect example and only that the sky was so dark and because I had my new dew/light shades on, I could see it at all.

I then saw a really nice cluster, much larger and brighter, it was not globular but sort of a round shape but not circular (if you know what I mean). I don’t know the names of these clusters because I have no real way of telling and I did not take my lap top out with me. I find the planisphere is really only good for very large stars and constellation names.

I then hit the jackpot, the mother load (well for me anyway), there she hung in all her splendor, Jupiter and surrounded with four moons who were standing guard protecting her J

This was the clearest I have ever seen Jupiter, she was almost on fire, bright and large and the moons were spectacularly clear, Io & Europa were at 11 o’clock as I faced the planet, they were close together, and not far away from the planet. Then at 10.30 o’clock but much further out and in a different angle to each other were Ganymede & Callisto. These two moons were 2 to 2.5 times further apart from each other than Io & Europa were.

This was so amazingly clear, I believe I may have experienced two things happening, firstly the seeing was especially good for me right at that time, and secondly, it’s the first time I have used my new dew/light shields which I also baffled the inside with absorptive black felt.

Then I had my mystery, I saw something at first I thought this was way too big to be a star, however it was so blazingly bright I doubt that it could have been a planet, it was almost halfway between Saturn on my left (north-west) and Jupiter on my right (south east), but it was not as high in the sky in terms of degrees. I checked out the planisphere quickly, but didn’t really come away satisfied that I knew what it was, of course by this time I was sure it was a very large star.

I went inside and switched my computer on and turned Stellarium on and as soon as I pointed it in the right direction it revealed to me that it was Arctaurus, I made some notes about the night in my observation diary and resolved to learn more about Arctaurus today. So all in all I have a pretty spectacular end to my day. I can’t wait till I get better gear and learn how to use it all, I wish I was 30 years younger and had all that time over again to observe the universe.

[Dennis]

Hi Ron

Excellent report, it reads like you had a great time. :thumbsup:

Cheers

PS - Jupiter is a bloke and according to Wiki, Ganymede is the only Galilean moon of Jupiter named after a male figure.

[DobDobDob]

I thought about that as I was writing, I saw a doco on TV where they say King Jupiter, so I thought Jupiter might have been male, but because it was so awesome, I thought it had to be female, now I really am confused :doh: is there an 'official' outside of Wiki, gender convention for celestial bodies???

[Dennis]

Off the top of my head, from tales of lore and general mythology, I have always understood the following:

Mercury – male (winged messenger)
Venus – female (goddess of love)
Earth – female (mother Earth)
Moon - female
Mars – male (god of war)
Jupiter – male (king of gods)
Saturn – male (god of time)
Uranus -male
Neptune – male (sea dude with a trident)
Pluto – male (deceased)

Cheers

Dennis

[DobDobDob]

Hahahahahahaha very good :lol:

[DobDobDob]

What about stars in general, are they gender neutral, or do you give them the gender of whom they were named after if that was a person (mythical or real). What about non-humanoid things, as in Canopus, which is probably named after the ancient Egyptian city of Canopus. We do give gender to our cities as a rule, they tend to be females :rolleyes:

[BSirius]

Hi Ron, sounds like you had a great session. How did you make your dew/light shields? Do they cut out much light pollution?

Cheers,

Ben

[DobDobDob]

Alan Sheehan wrote a top DIY project which I followed to the letter:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/index.php?id=63,321,0,0,1,0 (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/index.php?id=63,321,0,0,1,0)
I added the baffle myself after advice from several forum members. I got the self adhesive black felt from Spotlight and stuck it inside the shields. Yes it has improved my elimination of both dew and extraneous light form street lights etc. Do it, you won't look back

One word of caution, Alan's binoculars were AOE and mine are Andrews, both of these are identical in their physical size dimensions, if you have other larger or smaller sized binoculars, you will need to measure very precisely and match up the PVC pipe if possible, I suspect that there will be some binoculars that simply don't fit a PVC pipe size. In that case you would need to source out some other suitable material.

[BSirius]

Cool! Excellent rig Ron, good article too, I'll give it a go...

My wife loves Spotlight, I hadn't thought of a reason to go inside until now...

Cheers,

Ben