Notre Dame

[LewisM]

Notre Dame in Paris has almost burned to the ground.

[DarkArts]

That's rather tragic. I have some very nice photos of Notre Dame from my visit (many years ago now).

I hope the fire can be brought under control and the remaining structure salvaged and restored.

[N1]

It's bad but not quite that bad:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/apr/15/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-paris-france-landmark-live-news

[xelasnave]

It looked bad. Must have been hell inside...which is rather ironic☺.
Its a miracle it did not burn to the ground☺.
A sad event for the nation and I hope they can rebuild the damaged parts so as to retain this wonderful building.
Alex

[CeratodusDuck]

When I was last in Paris, the Notre Dame was still under renovation. It seems that the fire may be the result of workmen, but there is also the conspiracy concerning the burning of several other Catholic churches in France in recent months.


A true shame, regardless of your religion.

[LewisM]

The spire fell...not a lot left of the church. I am sure they can rebuild, but it'll never be the same. I too am glad I have seen it a few times.

Trump suggested - truly - that France needed to water bomb it...oh, what a genius this man is :lol:

[AstralTraveller]

I don't have a religious bone in my body but I still find this a shocking loss to humanity. Along with York Minster, Hagia Sophiaand (and few others I couldn't name) it is one of the world's great buildings. Jacob Bronowski said in The Ascent of Man that such buildings, even though they were built as monuments to God (or Allah or Buddha or whoever), stand as monuments to the people who built them. (And, please, I'm discussing human endeavor and achievement, not religion!)

[multiweb]

They've got rid of what they could move out in time apparently but all the fixtures attached to the building, vitreaux, etc... will be gone. The roof frame is gone so is the spire. Not sure what happened at this stage but I still can't comprehend how the hell a fire of that magnitude was allowed to grow and burn so hard in a building which everyone is looking at pretty much 24/7. I guess the enquiry will shed some light on this. Bloody shame for a 850 year old building.

[LewisM]

I have a sneaking suspicion the Gilettes-jeune will get a blaming...

[LewisM]

Eloquently put sir.

[multiweb]

That's why they were quick to rule out arson even though it was till burning not to inflame the situation further. Still something doesn't add up with all that business. Time will tell.

[sharpiel]

There's some talk bitumen roofing material that needs to be heated to form to shape caught fire and spread rapidly.

[glend]

There is little they could do to stop it. The forest of old growth oak beams in the roof are destroyed, and has been pointed out, the timbers no longer exist to replace them. I believe something like 13,000 oak tree were felled to make the roof structure. If they do rebuild, it cannot be done in the same way, likely steel would be used now to support the roof.
I see Trump suggested they use water bombers to attack the fire but in the heart of Paris this is unlikely to work eve n if the equipment was available. It's just another tragedy that was impossible to stop once it got started.
Prevention is the only way to save these type of old structures. Sadly the craftsmen just don't exist anymore to even try. The politicians promise to rebuild it, but it won't be for generations in my opinion. You only have to look at how long it is taking the Spanish to finish Gaudi's Cathederal to appreciate the effort needed.

[Ukastronomer]

Not that bad, but bad enough, shame

[xelasnave]

I suppose it would be rebuilt even if there were only two stones left standing.

But then one wonders why if everything has to be built afresh is there any point.

The questions that present...
Replace old with new materials and method or build it again exactly as it would have been done 800 years ago...use steel or wood...the window glass? make it like they did originally or use modern methods...or make the ruins safe and treat them as a reminder of how it once was...

Its a funny thing..I am not religious and think spending time energy and money on religious building to be an absolute waste and yet for this building I find myself leaning to rebuild it using ancient tools methods and materials.

And who will pay..the church? Mmmm was it insured? If not why not?
Should the world fund the fixup or only the church.

And how much money to repair it...heck if broad band cost billions you could think it could be more than that☺
Alex

[glend]

Alex, it cannot be rebuilt as it was originally, the old growth oak forests that provided all that lovely timber are long gone. Reading yesterday suggested over 13,000 oak trees were felled for the original construction phase, most in the roof. Secondly, there would not be enough timber craftsmen to complete the job as it was done originally. Most likely is a modern reconstruction, using most fireproof materials like steel. However, before that can be considered there has to be a structural engineering study to determine just how stable the remaining structure is, and what needs to be done to stabilise it first. Ancient stone mortars maybe useless now as binding material in say the towers or upper walls that might have to support the new structure. At least they seem to getting a lot of financial support from people with money.
Of concern is the silence from the Vatican, which has massive wealth reserves. At the very least the Vatican security people should be very worried about a fire there.

[xelasnave]

OK lets start planting the trees☺.
Interesting you mention that we hear nothing from the franchise head office. That was my impression however as I dont really follow all the news I thought I may have missed it.
Actually one wonders why the Pope has not made a visit much like a president or prime minister visiting disaster areas...I doubt if they will contribute a cent as there are plenty of examples of just how mean and tight fisted head office can be.

One tends to think well the stone work is there so it will be ok but I would expect that it probably needs to be pulled down as well.

And then I wonder should resources go to rebuilding such a structure or to house the countless homeless and feed the countless starving.
I am now going to search to see if thete has been any comment from head office☺
Alex

[glend]

Well you know the head office is in Italy, management may see this as a French problem. Of course much of the head office wealth came from looting the indigenous cultures of Central and South America back in the 1500s ( Aztecs, Incas, etc), in the name of___. And they have never been forthcoming with aid to rebuild church's destroyed by earthquakes as far as I can tell. The current boss is an Argentinian, you would think he would appreciate the irony of the situation.

[mental4astro]

We don't need to look very far for the solution. It is as old as temples themselves:

Rebuild a totally new structure on the site.

No matter what Text you follow, this is the normal process. To attempt to reconstruct the old building has never been the practice. Always a new structure. The ubiquitous Pheonix.

New materials, new technology, new inspiration have all been the norm when an old temple is destroyed.

Of course it is a tragedy to see the old structure destroyed. But tradition has the solution. And the French will no doubt come up with some awe inspiring designs for a new cathedral worthy of replacing the old building.

Alex.

[LewisM]

One can only hope not in the utterly horrid style like the Pompidou Centre.

I disagree - it needs to be rebuilt how it was, or as close to as possible.

[xelasnave]

What will it cost assuming we use only Australian tradies.

I cant find a peep out of head office. .. maybe they will wave the bosses fee to perform the openning ceromony.

Bless each stone and charcoal beam ..anything in the pile and auction each bit off on ebay.
Alex

[julianh72]

Well, the fire was probably an "Act of God", which the Insurers would use to deny liability - but the Church has a direct line of communication with God, so they will probably just get God to pay for the rebuild!

[Wavytone]

Dont suppose most of you are aware that in the 19th century Notre Dame was much unloved, not considered important and in disrepair - to the point demolition was imminent. The publication of Victor Hugo's "Hunchback of Notre Dame" brought it back into the popular culture of the period and it was restored and remains since.

I'm ambivalent about it. Cultural icon of Paris, yes. But also an ugly old pile, nonetheless.

I just wish people would think of the future and what we could make, instead of trying to reconstruct the past imagined through rose-coloured glasses. This applies to architecture as well as the environment.

Think Different™

[PCH]

Wow! I’m so glad you’re only a distant outsider and not on the planning committee. “Ugly old pile...” is that what you think of it now, or your opinion of it before the fire? Either way, you couldn’t be more wrong in my opinion, and thankfully most other peoples’ As I understand it.

[Wavytone]

I've visited it 3 times.

While I do agree most religions perform social functions quite well that secular organisations struggle with, I'm not overly impressed, frankly, by the way various faiths squandered significant money drawn from their parishioners on monuments, religious icons, gilded decorations and on themselves, rather than applying rather more of it to the benefit of their parishioners.

There are more than enough gothic piles remaining - including several of rather more architectural significance than Notre Dame.

As I said, consider what could be, not what was. Forget about trying to recreate the past - if you really want to do that, eschew all that is modern - starting with the clothes on your back, electronics, cars, and return to living like nomads with little more than animals, skins and wooden tools.

[mental4astro]

Don't get too teary eyed about the old building. It was revolutionary for its time, and its existence was born out of MANY failed attempts as the design evolved over many years with other similar structures, at the cost of many hundreds of lives as structure after structure failed and collapsed. Notre Dame has a lot of blood on its floor too - work safety 1000 years ago when it was started was not what it is today.

I see it as a step backwards to attempt to reproduce an obsolete design, instead of ceasing the opportunity to create a new structure with better building practices that also reflects the ideas of today, exactly the same way that the original did in its own time.

It is an absurdity to remake a flawed structure by todays standards, only to satisfy the melancholy of the heartache we feel today.

Don't get me wrong, I was in awe of the old building after studying its architecture in high school, and of its importance not just in history but in art history too. And of course I also see the same lofty elements in our own St Mary's cathedral in Sydney, and I would also feel gutted if it was destroyed. But time for the Phoenix to rise again.

[raymo]

I have visited many of the world's most striking, ugly, beautiful, overrated, and underrated religious buildings, some of which are sublime; but Notre Dame is most definitely not [ IMHO] one of them. It was an inspired choice
for the hunchback to inhabit. I also am an atheist, but an admirer of beautiful buildings.
raymo

[astroron]

I am in the camp of not spending 1 Euro on this building while there are thousands of Sick,Homeless,and destitute people in the world.
We have famine's massive drought's throughout Africa etc.
I wish there was such generosity when thousands to millions of people are starving throughout the world.
These type of buildings do not glorify "God" they glorify mans vanity and
Ego.
Henry the eight had the right idea,just go round Britain and see his handy work.
I don't see anyone rebuilding those churches.
Just my 2 penny worth.
Cheers

[RyanJones]

As I read though others replies I find myself agreeing with all sides of the discussion. So my views are as follows;

Is/was Notre Dame an exquisite example of gothic architecture ? I'd say no. But I would also say it has archtecural significance in its place. Do I think it can now be recreated with respect to its original form ? I'd say almost certainly not. I would argue that the craftsmanship used to join the timbers alone would now no longer pass building codes, despite standing for 100s of years. The irony of that can't be missed :rofl:. So my question is if it can't be built exactly the same, then where is its significance ? I must then agree that a modern reconstruction is the way to go.

Nicks comments have really struck a chord with me also and he voices a belief that I've been developing my self a lot recently. I think we concentrate, in all facets of life, far too much on either the preservation or a return to the past. Moving forward and creating new history should be our concentration if we wish to continue to evolve as a species.

Finally to Ron. I'm sorry but this is one comment I can't agree with. Unless you are living in self imposed poverty until the poor folk in Africa are on a level playing field then please be careful where you throw stones in your glass house. It is mearly a nice thought to think that Africa could be saved by money alone. I would argue that 99% of " money " given to Africa is given to make the payer feel good about them selves rather than the recipient. No different an ego driven behaviour than building an extravagant monument to celebrate a belief system that professes to care for all man kind.

[Ukastronomer]

Just MY opinion but why should anyone other than the church pay.

I have home insurance/ car insurance/ camera and so on, if I lose anything it pays, if I didn't have insurance TOUGH on ME why should anyone else pay.

I see the French government has pledged millions, and yet they have

"Homelessness in France is a significant social issue, one that is estimated to affect over 140,000 people, including 30,000 children"

Who needs the money more, sorry not the Church

[skysurfer]

Rebuild is not the biggest issue, there is already 800 million Euros (A$1.2 billion) funding offered by billionaires. But should it be ?
Well, it is one of the major heritages in the world. But with modern methods, steel structures for the roof and the spire, and can yet be restored that it looks almost the same.
I'd rather spend this money to this than the very many prestige projects of governments, big companies, like the football stadium in Qatar to be used only once, or large airports which are rebuilt and even Berlin Airport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport) which is left abandoned for years and is doubtful it will ever be opened. Or the prestigious EMAAR projects in Dubai for large buildings and penthouses for the super rich.

[Malcolm]

Anyone know if the Hunchback got out ok?

[xelasnave]

I think all funds should be invested in time travel research that hopefully will produce a means to go back in time and prevent the fire in the first place and when that is done to then go back in time and prevent the church rejecting the work of a certain astronomer and keeping him on the black list for centuries..heck there is so much to tidy up one could probably rank building saving way down on the list.

And although Ron is somewhat idealistic I think his sentiment is the most decent that I can think of...and I recall what a wise man told my next door neighbour when he was confronted with a difficult swiming pool instalation.."there is nothing that a dollar cant fix" and I expect although the problems of poverty involve many issues I would be surprised if its irradication is beyond the capabilities of humans but it is something that probably requires much more than prayer and charity.

I cant help but wonder if military budgets or the budgets associated with sports could solve poverty..If F1or football, for starters, could be directed to solve the problem of poverty we would I suspect have the problem at least a little more under control.
Maybe address the fact that the worlds wealth is in the hands of a very select few.

However idealisms prime requirement is that it will always be under funded.

Still the church remains silient and one can only wonder why.

There are those who will say "of course because they dont want to be drawn into any question of funding but I say they are probably just too busy engaged in prayer to save the souls of sinners.

We can only take the bright side which will be different for each person ..for me I must say one less church is a good start, for contractors there is the hope of a life long contract for the poor there is the hope that the church can save their soul and that the after life it does promise is not just some unfounded statement designed to keep them from wanting the basic necessities of life.

I wonder how these matters are dealt with by other species on other planets...

I wonder if they have churches.

I wonder if bovins are in control and humans are raised as their food sourse.
I wonder what to have for breakfast.
Time for some George Carlin as well.
Alex

[mynameiscd]

I had goosebumps watching the fire destroying history like thst. I have been a stone mason for 37 years and have seen a lot of history destroyed or modified which ultimately shortens the life of these buildings.
I was lucky enough to be taught by some real masters and carry that tradition on esp on the lime mortar side of it.
The heat from the fire would have fractured the stone and also turn the mortar to powder.
I only get to work on buildings 150 years old so what a privilege it would be to work on such a restoration like this.
Maybe i should learn french, I think they'll need all the help they can get.
Cheers
Andy

[astroron]

I would love to know how you come to your 99%?
The difference between the people and the stone,is one is a living breathing creature not an inanimate object.

[RyanJones]

99% is derived from a figure of speach. And you've missed the point I was making. What I'm saying is that we all have our indulgences. Us with our astro gear probably more than others. I think it's wrong to condemn people for wanting to spend money ( regardless of the amount ) on a building rather than the unfortunate people of the world when we ourselves are spending money on life's pleasures instead of the poor.

[Rob_K]

Just to correct a misunderstanding that appears consistently through this thread - the Roman Catholic church does not own the Notre Dame Cathedral (and indeed hasn't through a number of phases of the cathedral's history). It's now owned by the French Ministry of Culture and they are responsible for its maintenance. That is, the French people own it!

However due to the high cost of its maintenance, the Friends of Notre-Dame de Paris organisation was set up as a charity by the Archbishop of Paris & the diocese to raise money for its upkeep.

Cheers -

[AndyG]

I like that way of thinking. It must be a whole other level of appreciation you have, being in the trade.



It may appear mean, or inhuman, but it's very easy to value a stone over a human being. A collection of stones can shelter my family, or others inportant to me. "starving Africans" (or starving anybody), are irrelevant to me, when I work 3 jobs just to feed my family and pay the bank until I'm 65 to retain my own form of shelter. Perhaps people further in life's journey, who have overcome this, can relax and spare concern for people they'll never meet. Perhaps I envy that. Not sure, only time will tell.



The largest company on earth could pay cash for 2 Notre Dames tommorrow (one just as a spare), and then some. Needless to say, they won't. I wouln't be surprised if deep down, the Catholic Church underwrites one of the world's primary insurance underwriters. Where are you Clive? He'd know the answers :).

As Mental said, I personally hope they build something beautiful, that makes history from today. Maybe a fusion of Stone, wood, steel, glass, and graphene...

Perhaps it could be multi function, like a church/school/soup kitchen, meeting the needs of many. Even if the "social welfare" geared sections were in the basement, as to not compete with the tourist driven sections above.

[xelasnave]

Its a pity, maybe maybe not, that thru history it is the temples that are the best examples of building art and organisation...you would think that such a role would fall to universities or libraries.
Now would that not be better... a promotion and exhaltation of learning and the accumulation of tested knowledge.
If aliens visit you can bet they followed such an approach and that is why they became so advanced that they could visit a planet that places superstition before science and education.
So knock it down and put up a library using the best of modern technique materials and talent that looks to the bright future rather than remind us of our superstitious beginings.
There can be a place for religion but perhaps that place should be in the privacy of ones home.
Alex

Alex

[AndyG]

Thanks Rob, didn't know that. I guess it's just a historical and cultural association, rather than a legal title of ownership/responsibility.

[xelasnave]

Its time to give ND back to the church..that would be the decent thing to do☺
Alex

[JA]

I hope that one day you will find peace in your heart.

Best
JA

[RyanJones]

Thank you for clarifying that Rob. I for one wasn't aware of that.

[xelasnave]

I use my heart for pumping blood but I thank you for kind wishes.

Although I think the whole deal is fake I do follow the bits that support my notion of doing the right thing, respecting others and all forms of life even what most humans consider humble or annoying..eg mozzies or house flies have my respect and get my protection they are after all part of the mix some call creation.
And I think I am at peace..these days..which I attribute to accepting personal responsibilty and not blaming others or putting things down to fate or good or bad luck.
Moreove I am able to see myself as others see me and not hold a favourable construct of who I see myself to be...that has been the most powerful thing in my life..I see myself as meek and mild yet others see the opposite but fortunately I understand how they take a few times where I have been over the top and paint a picture of someone I know deep down that I am not.
And I find peace in although believing in myself and proceeding in all matyers with confidence that I am really only a mug who had more luck than talent.
Thanks again JA.. I know enough about your side to know your wish is sincere and respect you and your life management choice.
Alex

[N1]

I realise this thread is probably about to get TOSsed.

Alex - for the building, absolutely diasgree. It's a monument to the people that built it, not the people they built it for. I for one was in awe of what they had achieved when I visited the place. For the institution - you have a valid point there.

[xelasnave]

Hi Mirko

I hope the thread survives I have found it very interesting and informative..Take the ownership..one, me for one, assumes that ND is owned by the church...how often do I need to remind myself not to assume anything..even the most simple and clearly apparent truths...and as some have here. ..never generalise..oh and never say never.

Religious discussion often goes downhill but for me it makes me realise that other folk have a reality different to mine..I think it is healthy to always be reminded that reality is best approached as subjective rather than objective...and I see merit in respecting anothers subjective analysis of their world.

But remember you are talking to someone who does not accept the big bang or creation and content to accept that I really dont know and to offer any answer can only be speculation irrespective of the science or scripture presented in support.
I do see where you are coming from and I would say your point has a validity that can not be ignored but I feel that as with most things it is not as clear cut as you I or anyone would present here...

What is being overlooked is someone must have been negligent at best or at worst case perhaps evil...meaning criminal..


I will be intetested to see a professionals analysis of the event leading up to the fire...so often these events when analysed show an unlikely chain of events each of which somewhat harmless but when put together explain an unlikely accident.

Alex

[leon]

It is tragic but even if it rebuilt it is not history anymore, it will never be the same.
It burning to the ground is history.

Leon

[xelasnave]

I am watching Arrowsmith play at the Colossium...that place should be rebuilt...
Alex

[blindman]

Imagine how many people can be feed instead wasting DAILY 52,000,000 US$ on NASA !

[sharpiel]

Blasphemy!

[xelasnave]

Well that money certainly does feed many people if you think it through and the positive is they work in reality not make believe.

Any money spent anywhere is good as the more money spent on whatever the more disposable income for someone who may give some to charity.

But really we will be better off spending money in areas of science than in church building if you think about it.

Alex

[skysurfer]

I think it should be restored in its original state, although with modern construction techniques. It is not anymore possible to fell thousands of oaks for the trusses of the roof. There are no construction workers available to do this 13th century style construction work.

It is better to use modern design and construction techniques, such as a steel skeleton roof and spire and the use of concrete, cladded with replicas of the original roof elements and the spire ornaments. And no lead on the roof due to lead poisoning hazard. And obviously good fire safety.
There was 250 tons of lead used which was molten with even vaporization due to the heat of the fire.

[Ukastronomer]

Sorry I agree with JA, religion is on the way out we know how the universe was created now and it wasn't divine intervention.

[Ukastronomer]

That is a dumb comment, when the Earth finally can sustain no more life through overpopulation and rape of the world you will be grateful for NASA etc

Perhaps this thread is over.................

[Ukastronomer]

a1+



.

[xelasnave]

Are you sure about your numbers?

I worked out it is about 10% of what you claim...tell me I am wrong or ammend your claim in the interest of recording the truth.

Their buget is less than .6% of GNP I think.

Personally I think the religious organisations can be looked at with greater distain as the dont pay any tax..that is just so wrong..treat them as the businesses they are and make charitable outgoings deductables....who could complain about that? think of the rich pastors with private jets ..you know I saw one guy appealing for money to fund his third private jet...cant waste time in the public airport as that takes away from time doing the lords works..I applaude such concern about efficiency..but what struck me as odd was his appeal to only send multiples of $1000 s and telling folk how they could get a loan to raise a donation...with a promise that their donation would come back ten fold....you want to talk morality relating to spending I would be happy to represent NASA if you want to represent all the tax avoiding good folk.
Alex

[raymo]

I agree that religion is on the way out in some parts of the world, but certainly far from everywhere.
As to knowing how the universe was created, we have only theories which can't be tested, and suppositions, and are a very long way from knowing.
raymo

[xelasnave]

It will be a long long really long time before religion leaves humans if ever.

Creation...let me explain the problem for the idea of creation and explain why the universe is no doubt eternal and has always been and always will be.

Firstly creation implies that something can come from nothing which is impossible because first and foremost there can be no condition existing that humans describe as nothing simply because if there is nothing there then you must find something.

Further experience tells us that even when we think we have nothing a close examination always shows there to be something for example one may say this cup is empty and yet critical examination shows that the cup if full of air something where one made the mistake of concluding that there was indeed nothing..and even in the most remote and empty place in space examination clearly shows that it will have photons and almost unlimited nutrinos rushing hither and thither so much so one could wonder how do they all fit.

Nothing..I don't think so.

Nothing like many names humans invent describes a condition that is impossible to find in reality and the only reason that reality does not become obvious is few take but an hour or two to think the matter thru and make a logical assessment unguided by something sproutted by an authority figure who also has never given the matter an hour or two to considering the basless statement they happily rattle off without backup or tested models.

But doesnt the big bang theory say everything came from nothing? ..well no it does not say that at all..the big bang theory only deals with the evolution of the universe from a hot dense state...it only deals with the evolution of the universe and it says nothing whatsoever about creation...nothing (and here I use the word appropriately) but let us be clear and put it absolutely clear as one can ... the big bang theory picks up the story after a point in time which the theory nominates as a starting point...so the theory does not suggest anything more than a hot dense state...certainly not nothing..

.So where does the idea that the theory deals with a point of creation...perhaps the catholic priest who invented the theory and was preoccupied, along with many "thinkers" in the catholic church at that time..the preoccupation with the pagan notion of creation starting with a cosmic egg..yes a cosmic egg or as modern science renamed it "a singularity"... but remember a "singularity" is a point where the math breaks down and therefore can make no reliable predictions and certainly does not make a prediction that can be tested against the math..the math does not now exist..past this boundary lay dragons and stuff..

.But the math takes us back to a universe that was hot and dense and that certainly is not nothing and does not hint at at all at a condition loosely referred to as nothing and certainly does not hint in the slightest at a point of creation. ...creation is wishful thinking on the part of the inventer of the big bang theory and all those who although not happy with the biblical account merely seek a creation point for whatever reason..

.before we suggest creation we must be able to show that there was at some point nothing and that our hot dense something was created from nothing..it was not and it could not come from nothing..hence there is no creation point and the universe is eternal.

The big bang only starts time at an arbitrary point when as the theory alledges the hot dense state inflated faster than the speed of light and for all practical qualification instantly..that put in terms expressed by Neil De Grasse .. in a zillionth of a zillionth of a zillionth of a second..what that is saying is the univetse grew from a hot dense, size of a grapefruit size, to the size of the current observable universe in a zillionth of a zillionth of a zillionth of a second..you cant get more instant than that folks...but even that unsupported claim does not mention a point of creation.

Creation is an idea humans need for they simply can not comprehend the obvious reality that the universe is indeed eternal.

Everything comes from something and nothing is an unsupported myth.

What makes more sense an eternal universe or an eternal entity popping out of eternity to create a finite universe.

The eternal universe wins hands down and does not have to trash religious belief but religious belief must fit within such a context to be retain any credibility.

And folk must abandon all notions that the big bang theory points to creation...it simply does not☺.
Alex

[Sparksinspace]

I think you miss the mark. everyone focuses on nothing, When its everything that should be considered, nothing in my opinion, is made of everything and this is where both sides can exist.

[RyanJones]

There seems be a tether being drawn between religion and Catholicism.

I for one have no issue with religion as I have no issue with guns. Fire away, just don't point your gun at me or anyone else.

God or whichever variation you believe in has a place in the minds of those that need it to be. If you need to believe in an almighty and that's what gets you through the day then so be it. If you and a group of like minded people want to build a temple to come together and celebrate that then by all means go for it. Just don't force your ideas on others and don't claim to be anymore than a group of like minded people. Who knows, in a few hundred years, your temple may become a national treasure and as such we'll help pay to rebuild it when it burns down. Not because we are religious but because your building has historical relevance.

As far as money being spent on buildings and assets or going to the moon rather than feeding the poor or housing the homeless I have one thing to say.

Evolution was not born from the preservation of the weak.

[Sparksinspace]

Evolution was not born from the preservation of the weak. [/QUOTE]

But it was, If it wasn't for weak differences and mutations then evolution could not happen

If there was no weak then how could the fittest survive?

[RyanJones]

Key word " preservation ".

Once an evolutionary leap was made ( mutation ) the species didn't then halt its progress to look after less evolved species.... It continued to evolve.

[multiweb]

The roof frame was original but the spire that burned down was built in 1860 or there about as most of the back. The front is original and unaffected. I read they salvaged all the important stuff inside on time. A lot of donations have been made nationaly and internationaly for repair. It is a golden opportunity for Macron to try to polarise and reunite the population as there is a lot of unrest in France at the moment. All the corporates and noble families in France are apparently outbidding each other with hundred of millions of euros for the reconstruction chest. These sums are 66% tax write off, so the state is at a loss. There is growing anger from people in the street who have been trying to make both ends meet and were repeatidely told the money wasn't available for support.The media was quick to jump on it to televise the whole thing. Bottom line is the fire happened because of lack of funding and skilled people in the restoration process.

[AndyG]

I'd 2n'd all that. Well said.

[Sparksinspace]

perhaps another forum at another time.
Don't want it turning into "one of those threads" that gets shutdown.
I am definitely not a religious man but definitely not an atheist either.


However you look at it, It is a shame that history has been destroyed

[Exfso]

this post as usual has gone off at a tangent.:screwy:

[Sunfish]

Sounds like Macron is hoping an international design competition will have a result , at least an image, that will mesh with the summer Paris olympics in 2024.

However quoting the abc report. :

‘Prominent French conservation architect Pierluigi Pericolo told Inrocks magazine it could take triple that time.

"No less than 15 years … it's a colossal task," Mr Pericolo said.

Mr Pericolo worked on the restoration of the 19th-century Saint-Donatien basilica, which was badly damaged by fire in 2015 in the French city of Nantes

...it could take between "two to five years" just to check the stability of the massive cathedral that dominates the Paris skyline’

I can’t see a political decision being reached any time soon on a national monument , leased to the church. The Sydney Opera House took fourteen years (using French cranes) May be another Sagrada Familia , a story that people find endlessly fascinating.

[RyanJones]

Taking the cultural significance away from the topic for a moment. Isn't it sometimes better when something is completely destroyed ? It's frustrating that it takes so long to make sure that the original part is ok before anything can be done to repair or restore it.

[Sparksinspace]

Why would you bother rebuilding if it wasn't culturally significant? it's not as if we are saving 1970's triple front brick veneer homes.
However there would be some significance as it is part of Australian culture :lol:
many a family unit has been created within a asbestos ridden triple front brick veneer :thumbsup:

[multiweb]

:lol: well... it goes back a little earlier than the 70s, at a time Paris was only a small village in a small island of the river Seine. In the time it's been up it has been fixed, then abandonned to almost a ruin state, then fixed again, pillaged, multiple times throughout history. In the 19 century it was a pretty sad sight but people took notice again because of Victor Hugo then the movie the hunchback of notre dame revived it for a while more recently and now it's one of the major attractions for tourism.

[brian nordstrom]

LOL .
Brian.

[multiweb]

:lol: Lots of meme online. Saw one on FB saying he forgot to turn the oven off when leaving the place.

[RyanJones]

Now that's funny :rofl:

[JA]

I think they will almost certainly use a steel structure, perhaps covered with traditional adornment and/or a part glass roof or spire - a la Louvre pyramid..... Image credit: Uriel Soberanes

Best
JA

[glend]

I see the "Yellow Shirts" are rioting again, after a rest period following the fire. Seems they are upset about the financial response to the fire, and nothing for them. Good riddance to them, they have done a lot to destroy Parisian tourism over the past year.

[JA]

Go BIG or go HOME .....

Large Glass Spire in comparison with original height spire on LHS (excuse MS Paint, new PC with no PS loaded)

Best
JA

[mynameiscd]

It's a hard decision when renovating old buildings. The project im on at the moment has just made the decision to scrap 200 or so 3"x 10" floor joists all hand cut redgum and replace with modern LBL beams.
The only reason is that a lot of the hand made nails have rusted and snapped off so the carpenter doesnt want to use them and he's worried that his second fix nail gun wont get through the old timber.
Because this beautiful 1863 building is not heritage anything can be done.
Im the stonemason there so I've had a fair say in how its being renovated but not when its coming to the new floor.
I've had to go to the old stone pit, choose stone and pretty well hand dress the stone ready for use, especially with door arches which were damaged. All were laid with lime mortar and any cement on the building was removed and replaced with lime mortar.
I could have gone down the route of using bessar blocks and doing a cement render and doing imitation stone but in my opinion its criminal.
I know that sometime heritage gets carried away but at least it never gets lost.
At the moment these 200 x 10 foot plus floor joists are in the burn pile.........!!!!!!????
Im working on full salvage options rather tan see 150 years of history go up in smoke.
Cheers
Andy

[xelasnave]

It would be criminal to burn that timber..heck if it could not be sold for $2 a foot minimum I would be surprised and head off a $ 2k burn off.

There probably is a buyer out there at $5 a foot. ..

Tell the carpenter about a wonderful invention he probably does not know about...the hammer ☺...although old hardwood is like steel it can take the nail holes being drilled...sounds as if lazyiness is getting in the way of recycling.

Alex

[glend]

While I am all for reuse of those 3x10s I imagine that any potential buyer would be scared of nails embedded in the timber being hit by saws during the refiguring process. Ripping them below the nail depth could be an option. One problem would be establising the depth of the nails. Without nail depth data, you could scan them, but the cheap option is to just cut them down to 3x6s to be safe.
My son and i built a outdoor table out of old hardwood joists, and even though he was assured that nails were removed, we still found some.

[JA]

Hi Glen,

I've had success with very strong neodymium magnets for in wall and in timber nail location. A nice stack of magnets will find them.

Best
JA

[mynameiscd]

Hi Alex,
Ive put this too the station manager but to him whats the point of
selling all that "old wood its just firewood".!!!
I told him cut about 50mm off tge top to cut away the nails and then you can use machines to redress the timber if needed.
I'll keep onto this because I hate this stuff.
Anyway here's a few photos of my progess.
As for Notre Dame i hope the same thing doesnt happen but they've already had their "burn pile".
Cheers
Andy

[xelasnave]

That is great Andy and wont it look great when you get all that stone cement rendered☺.

I am joking of course.

It looks fantastic... thanks for sharing.

A bloke up here built a beautiful stone house..110 tons of stone ..all by himself over ten or more years..he said each stone got handled five times and that he wore out three wheel barrows.
The foundations were over the top I cant remember the cement used but it was like ten times a pad.

He and his wife lived in a caravan for the time it was being built but theu split up when they moved into the new place...no mortar that you can see...but the walls are effectively three rocks thick .but rendered on the inside...huge but only two bedrooms.

Door frames and window frames like railway sleepers bigger really..I love the place and stayed there many times cause he would go away working for six months...
My old place is rock half of the wall and it looks cute..but rendered on the inside... dust was just too much.

Alex

[Sunfish]

Great stonework and an interesting building.

I think you could find someone to take straight lengths of red gum for recycling if there is transport. Transport and loading is the issue usually. I have used many recycled spotted gum and blackbutt purlins with nails removed and the joiners have not hit a nail. Joiners here even recycle for window frames if the species and quality is right.

Pm me and I can ask around.

[mynameiscd]

Hi Ray,
I have recycled as much as posible as I rebuilt all the windows and doorways but im not in control of the floor so the modern type carpenters have never seen a building like this with stone dwarf walls etc are in contol of this part.
Im doing my best to stop the destruction. Im also looking for fir someone in Western Victoria who can help restore the woolpress.
If not I'll do it myself otherwise it might get cut up and stored in a shed somewhere.
I would love the opportunity to work on a restoration job like Notre Dame, maybe i might have to go for a working holiday in Europe.
Hmmm i might miss the Clear Skies here though.
I might stick to early Australian colonial restorations and low light pollution for a while yet.
Cheers
Andy

[multiweb]

:lol: No idea...

[RyanJones]

Hi Andy,

A great project to be working on. I used to be a carpenter and had the opportunity to work with some old timber on a post and beam house on the Mornington peninsula . The entire house was made from reclaimed timer and stone with mud brick walls. We had old railway sleepers and old timber shipping containers and old timber bridges for the frame. The owner of the house had a team of 4 guys with 4 planners and a few dozen boxes of blades who would work with us 6 days a week preparing each timber for use. The cost of the place was originally estimated at $250,000. By the time we had finished it was slightly over half a million. Sometimes, sadly, money just gets in the way of preservation or reclaimation. I really enjoyed the job and it was certainly different even though it could quite easily have taken my life when my drill bit jammed in an iron bark post some 12 meters off the ground and threw me off the planks I was standing on. Thank god for a home made harness :thumbsup:
It's great to see you still carrying forward a true craftsman skill of stone masonry. Good on you :thumbsup:

[Sunfish]

Great mortise and tenon frame and corner stone work. Very impressive.

I hear reported that the French require more traditionally trained specialist tradesmen so perhaps they will call for volunteers, in a similar way to the Tall Ships restoration. More than likely though a modern solution will be proposed.,

There are some great restored woolsheds such as the one at a lake Mungo , and on the Darling, complete with machinery. Great places to see great hand made buildings.

[Sunfish]

Ps. Who is that bunch of hipsters in the last image? They look like my great grandfather’s building team.

[xelasnave]

Bring back the original building team.

alex

[mynameiscd]

Cheers guys,
I still have so much passion for my work even when i was laid up with sciatica last year. All i was thinking about was not being able to finish the woolshed.
Over the years a lot of my work has been doing salt damp repair so weeks and weeks on my knees so a job like this is a real change.
The picture is from about 1870s of the indigenous shearers who also helped to build the woolshed about 15 years before.
350+ tonnes of ironstone was shifted 11 kms to build this shed.

These guys were the main workforce around when the squatters moved in. The aboriginal women and children used to round up the sheep though the lake to wash the sheep before shearing.
Before this photo was taken a group of indigenous cricketers were taken on tour (1868) around England to become Australias first 11.
They were born and worked on these properties around the area.
By the end the 1870s there were only a handful of aborigines left after being pushed of their lands and into missions, and by 1890 there were none.
All these sheds around SE Australia were supposed to be built by the Chinese on the way to the goldfields from landing at Robe.
The ships landed at Robe in 1857 and they were on a 4 to 5 week mission to get to goldfields not a 6 to 7 year wait to then start some stone woolsheds!!!
A lot nicer story than use free aboriginal labour and then systematicly force them off the land.
Some of the stories I've uncovered are so brutal that its actually genocide.
History is still getting rewritten.
Cheers
Andy