Astrophotography Rig Advice

[Outcast]

I'm still starting out on my AP journey; I have managed some short exposure shots on my Alt/Az Meade LX90, I have started on some solar imaging with my LUNT solarscope & I have recently acquired a Celestron CG5 Adv GT EQ mount.

I have also accumulated some cameras along the way...

I'm relatively happy with what I have achieved thus far; I've begun to stack multiple images, process videos for planetary & lunar & am slowly getting my head around software such as Autostakkert, DSS, Registax & Startools. I have along way to go in all areas but, am looking to progress a little further towards longer exposure shots.

My initial plan is to get my head around my EQ mount & do some longer exposure shots using an 80mm ST Refractor. I'm aware of both the scope and my mount's limitations but, this is about taking small steps, learning the basics & then progressing to the next step when I have the basics sorted.

I am however, beginning to look around at an imaging scope & ultimately using the 80mm Orion for guiding... What I am unsure about is in which direction to go... so, what are my priorities?

I'm glad you asked, here are my priorities in order of importance:

1. Portability & simplicity of setup & use
2. Relative 'compactness' for storage at home
3. Budget / Value for money
4. Usefulness for occasional visual use as a grab & go
5. Ability to be mounted on something like the Sky Adventurer (or similar) to enable travelling with the rig overseas (Not the highest priority)

Options currently being considered:

1. 80mm - 100mm APO - not the cheapest option I know but, portable & relatively simple

2. 130mm - 150mm Newtonian - a little bigger in terms of storage & portability but, fairly inexpensive.

3. 150mm Richey Creiten - again, a little bigger in terms of storage & portability but, still less expensive than an APO

I'm aware that each of these options have pro's & cons in terms of the priorities I listed & in ease of use (collimation vs no collimation), Field flatteners, Reducers, Coma Correctors, etc....

What I would like is comment from those who have used each of these types of scopes for imaging, ideally, from anyone who might have used all three perhaps...

Which way would you go & why?

Thanks in advance

[casstony]

With guiding you'd probably find that the CG5 is entirely adequate for long exposures with an 80mm refractor.

The refractor would be the most painless option - just focus, apply a dew strap and it won't give you any grief.

The TS 80mm fpl53 f/7 doublet is a good scope and its price keeps you under the gst limit. The TS72 fpl53 doublet that I have is also good and cheap but even more widefield. The focuser on these scopes is a good 2.5" R&P.

TS sells a 4 element 0.8x reducer to suit these refractors.

Similar scopes are sold under other brands such as Astro-tech and Stellarvue.

[glend]

Agreed. But is there still a GST limit? I thought that was phased out last July?

[casstony]

The GST (up to $1000 goods price) does not apply to businesses which import less than AU$75000 worth of goods into Australia per annum.

I imagine information will be updated over time and more companies will be added to the "over $75000" list, but I've had a couple of orders come in from TS in the last 6 months with no gst applied.
The TS115 did have GST applied, as expected.

Platforms such as ebay are considered to be a single entity, thus gst is applied to all international purchases.

[sil]

Priority 4: just get a 6 or 8in dobsonian, no goto or anything, as simple as it gets and fantastic for visually something to do while your AP rig is busy. Also easy to pop outside and show stuff to friends.

As for an OTA, maybe forget and use your existing camera and lens with a dovetail camera mount and work on your setup and alignment and tracking of you mount, and the processing too... an OTA adds magnification that fast amplifies mount issues. So maybe patience and just use camera on mount first to get understanding and refine your setup/teardown process and gear storage, maybe pick up tracking issues that need to be addressed regardless too. Something to get on with while deciding on OTA.

[Astronovice]

I have been researching TS options also. Does import duty apply to Astro gear?

[glend]

I have bought a number of scopes from TS, never had to pay any import duty per se, there are some charges on our end. However, things are changing. I have always gone with UPS for shipping from TS, for several reasons: they are very fast, it's possible to get the scope within a week of ordering; they provide detailed tracking each time the package changes planes, etc; they handle the inbound charges on your behalf. How that works is you will get a call from a UPS rep, sometimes when your package is still in the air inbound from the last waypoint, they will tell you exactly what additional charges are owing (normally for scopes this could be GST and clearance charges). You can pay over the phone via credit card, and they handle customs clearance. You will get detailed tracking on where the scope is on arrival, and I have had scopes delivered within 24hrs of landing at Mascot. Perhaps others have horror stories but I have not had a bad experience dealing with TS or with UPS. I used DHL once, and had some damage in shipment, thus I stay away from them for scopes. For accessories, DHL is ok, and much cheaper.

I just ordered a new scope from TS yesterday, with UPS to deliver.

[casstony]

DHL is also fine for small scopes under the 1000 gst limit in my experience - it is as lot cheaper.

[Outcast]

Thanks Tony, I had a look at them briefly, certainly the price point is quite reasonable. How much difference in terms of capability between an 80mm & a 72mm?

Good to know the mount will be up for the journey, particularly with guiding... I got it at a bargain price, just had to source a replacement DEC motor to get it up & running properly..



Yes indeed, I think one just has to be cautious about who one buys from. I've bought eyepieces & bass gear from some overseas sources & avoided GST quite recently.



Agree, I absolutely have to be doing visual whilst the AP rig is running otherwise I will be bored feckless.. I still love visual astronomy... to that end I have on of Mental4Astro's exquisite 12" dobsonians coming later in the year...

Interestingly, I have my DSLR mounted atop my Orion ST right now though, that was more about achieving RA balance as the counterweight for my mount is significantly heavier than the OTA on it. I will give your suggestion some serious consideration as I move from Az/Alt based AP to EQ based AP, it certainly has some significant merit.

Thanks to all thus far...

[casstony]

Photographically it's just a matter of picking the focal length/field of view that you want. For grab and go visual the 80mm will have a little more brightness for planets.

Since I already had the 115 f/7 for imaging, I chose the 72 f/6 which shows about twice the field of view and four times the area of the larger refractor. I use the TS72 for objects which are too large for the TS115.

[Outcast]

Thanks Tony, much appreciated

[tvandoore]

It depends what you're aiming to do. You mentioned planetary but as you're taking about eq mount and longer exposures, I'll assume you're aiming towards DSO imaging.

I'd say to go with an 80mm triplet APO and a reducer/flattener. You can get to f4.8 with that combo pretty easily (ie the ES80 and Orion 0.8ff/fr).

I have the 130mm version of the TS scope mentioned below and have always been impressed with it.

[Outcast]

Thanks Tim,

You're quite right... just double checked my original post & saw that I completely left out DSO which, is exactly my intent

I have pretty much decided for the reasons others have mentioned (& which closely align with my own thought processes) to go down the APO route & will be looking very closely at the TS Optics scopes as well as keeping an eye out on the classifieds here...

Still not sure whether or not to go with 80mm or stepup in size to a 102mm.. will be looking closely in the coming months at dimensions, box sizes (for transporting) and of course.. cost...

Cheers

Carlton

[xelasnave]

Hi Carlton
I think there is no perfect set up and like to think of set ups more like a set of golf clubs...you need a few☺


I have a variety of scopes that I have used for photos ... 6inch reflector, 6 inch refractor, 12 inch reflector, 8 inch reflector, 80mm refractor and just a cheap camera lens (70/200mm).
I have an eq6 and an heq5. I have a old mount that substitutes for a star adventurer.

I am most impressed with the heq5 as it manages the 8 inch which I am very happy about.

If I had to cut back I would go for the 80mm on the heq5 and the old mount (the Bojan Wide Field Mount).

I was not really happy with the 80mm when using it with my Nikon D5500 (24meg) but when I went with the ZWO 1600 and all the filters☺ it became amazing.

I have yet to take a proper narrow band image which points to the main problem I find which is you need just so much time as oppossed to dslr approach.

I hope to run both the 8inch(carrying the Nikon) and the 80mm and the BWM in the future mainly because the time you get a decent sky these days needs to be used to the max.

The 80mm with the zwo takes a while to set up because of the need for a lap top and a power supply (12vlt battery inverter leads and solar panel desk and chair...big deal with poor legs).

Having the BWM is a real treasure as you put on the camera plonk it down do a ruff PA set the intervalometer and bang away..the belt jumps off the gear but when I fix that it will be care free. ..and although I planed it for under 50mm it manages much longer fls using short exposures.

What has surprised me is the short exposures and high gain I can get away with using the zwo.

Not up to what experts would tolerate but I get results that I am happy with...my last Spider shot was using 30 to 40 second captures and max gain even with Ha...
I find the 8 inch much easier to handle than I expected and very good value..I cant remember but about $500 for the scope and nearly as much again for a coma corrector. A wonderful scope for the money.An f5 so it is forgiving.

The focuser could be better but I will tolerate it.

The 80 mm is near perfect and very easy to handle.

Anyways good luck and really just work with what you end up with...the real challenge is getting the most out of what you have and the satisfaction comes from looking at your image, good or bad, and knowing what a huge effort that you personally had to make to get it... my recent Spider was not flash to others but I knew what a momumental effort it was and so I was more than happy given all the rules I broke to get something.

Anyways just remember ...you can never have to many golf clubs or telescopes☺ or bikes or boats☺

Alex

[Outcast]

Agree with all Alex....

Much like your analogy, it's about deciding on the setup that fit's with my priorities...

Oh, & you missed Basses, you can never have enough basses... LOL....

Thanks for the advice

[Stonius]

+1 for 100mm APO. Contrary to popular belief, you do need to check their collimation, but once set, they hold it much better than any of the reflectors you mention.

I'd steer well away from a small RC. They require a bit more fiddling to get right and I understand collimation is trickier the smaller the aperture.

Essentially it breaks down like this;

If you want to capture nebulae, you'll get a lot of instant gratification with a 100mm APO. Lots of detail and an image scale that will a) fit larger nebulae in, like n Carinae, M42 and Running man, the entire Rosetta (depending on pixel size, of course) and b) be more tolerant of tracking errors if you don't have the $$ to pay for the mount.

If you want Planetary, the mount becomes even less important because tracking just has to keep the object in frame for a few minutes. But! You'll need longer focal lengths - typically achieved by a combination of powermates and native scope length. You want around 5-6000mm total focal length to get surface detail. A lot of it comes from the seeing. After that it comes from getting lucky breaks in the seeing that last fractions of a second, so you'll want a fast shutter speed. More aperture will give you more light to play with and therefore faster shutter speeds, so a Newtonian may be your best bet here.

But if you really want galaxies (other than Andromeda, M33 and the Magellanic clouds) then I'm afraid there is no help for you. You really need a good mount - there's no getting around it - because you need excellent tracking at long focal lengths. I would spend all your money on a decent mount and just get a non-APO to play with fo the time being. If you have a mono camera with a filterwheel, shooting RGB will ameliorate chromatic aberration somewhat, but to get to those kind of focal lengths with a small aperture instrument will be way *slow. For example, doubling the focal length of a system *quadruples the exposure times. You may get more joy with a newtonian in this situation.

But yes, I'd definitely avoid an RC scope (I have one). They are good scopes and remarkably aberration free, but you'd want to feel very comfortable collimating a newtonian before considering one, and even then the design practically requires a Tak collimating scope to get to star-test stage.

Hope that helps you some :-)

Markus

[Camelopardalis]

Just to echo a few sentiments...

It’s your hobby, your money, your time, your image, your enjoyment :D

Some folk like the competition, the thrill of the chase, whatever it is, get in touch with your goals and reach for the stars :lol:

Sorry, a bit philosophical for this time of the morning :screwy:

Another analogy is, especially for the Mrs, is that telescopes are like shoes...you don’t wear hiking boots the ballet nor do you wear stilletos to hike a mountain ;)

An SCT, a mid-size newt and a small(ish) refractor cover a lot of bases and should keep you busy for a while. Each has their own strengths, and weaknesses.

Just remember that the scope is just one side of the equation. The photon receiver is the other side. Visual or camera. This camera or that camera. Cameras have different characteristics, sensor size, pixel size, QE, noise, cooling or not...similarly, all have their uses. A combinatorial approach gives you more options...and cameras are more invisible than telescopes :lol:

[ChrisV]

Carlton

There is only bass. To rule them all - the rickenbacker 4001(3).

Chris

[glend]

Haha

https://youtu.be/6QC3Qvyp0LE

Collecting telescopes is cheaper.

[ChrisV]

And that's why I got into astro Glenn ... Certainly wasn't because of the late nights.

[tvandoore]

That's the most spectacular thread hijack I've ever seen.

Having said that, the analogy of telescopes = shoes is most constructive and should be discussed further.

[Outcast]

Thanks Markus,

Some good considerations there. I have an f10 SCT which does reasonably well on the planetary & lunar front, sure, Az/alt mount but, adequate for collecting video sequences for stacking.

I'm about to acquire my first Newts in one of Alex's exquisite Gondwana Dobs (12" Marana) so that will be my first foray into collimating Newts.

I'm definitely leaning towards the APO although, to be
honest, it is some way off on the purchase horison as I have a learning path mapped out in the form of learn how to setup my EQ mount, use my DSLR & lens to track & improve my mount setup & tracking progress, move to my little 80mm Achro & continue to refine my setup, alignments & tracking...on top of all this there is the learning curve on processing..

Then later comes the transition to guiding & more to learn...

Progress to anything better, mount or scope will be some time off, this was more about kicking telescope tyres & hearing what more experienced folk had to say & it's certainly achieved that...

Cheers

[Outcast]

Ya know Chris,

It's funny, I once lusted after one of these.. then I got to play one (albeit briefly) & honestly... I wasn't that sold on it...

I have a MIJ 30+yr old Fender PJ which plays like a dream & has just a fantastic tonal range due to the PJ setup & blend function..

I also own a $400 Made in Asia Musicman Subray & it just kicks ass... down right dirty, gritty, angry snarl of a bass...

I certainly want more basses, hell, who wouldn't but, these days I don't dismiss anything til I play it.. there is some real gold out there for insanely cheap prices.. ya just gotta find em...

Cheers

[Outcast]

Dunk,

My wife is a shoeaholic... but, I've tried that argument & all she does is come back at me with a price comparison.....

Having said that though, she's pretty good & I am beginning to amass quite a collection...

I have a couple of camera options at present, DSLR, ZWO ASI224MC & I've managed to acquire an Orion SSAG & get it to work for image capture in Sharpcap (albeit a bit clunky for gain adjustment)... & will later be used for guiding.

I'm getting my head around the strengths & weaknesses of each of these camera's as part of my learning journey which, will likely then inform a better imageing device in the future.

Cheers

[Camelopardalis]

Carlton, for planetary with your SCT, the 224 will be streets ahead of anything else. Only the 290 comes close. It’s just the most sensitive to date.

DSLR must be tricky up there with the noise, it’s bad enough down here for half the year :lol: I ended up buying a cooled camera and it works well. There are plenty of options...

Best thing I can suggest is get to grips with your gear and get some images you’re happy with before splashing out on too many toys. Especially when it comes to the cameras, the technology is changing all the time and it doesn’t make sense to buy one you’re not ready to make full use of.

[Outcast]

Hi Dunk,

What you have said is exactly why I purchased the 224MC; I did a lot of research before I purchased this camera & like you have stated found it to be very good in terms of both sensitivity & noise levels.

Amusingly, I haven't actually used it that much for planetary work since I got it; between weather (our wet season) & shift working during the dry season, my opportunities for any astronomy have been extremely limited. I have however, managed to use it to provide live views of some DSO's on a tablet & played around with some DSO captures... a DSO camera it is not but, then again, it's not bad when you take into account it's limitations & use it accordingly.

Noise certainly is an issue up here; sensor temperature on the ZWO is routinely up around 35 degrees or more on the ZWO & I have no idea what the temp is on the DSLR. I'm toying with the idea of a heat sink & fan setup on the ZWO to drop the temp a little; I don't want to go the Peltier route as dew point here is usually high & it will induce moisture buildup.

With the DSLR, I need to investigate turning off some internal functions that aren't required to try & minimise heat buildup as much as possible.

Fortunately, to some extent the noise issue can be ameliorated in post processing together with darks & flats; again, something I am only just beginning to experiment with.

Whilst a purpose built cooled camera would be nice, it's not on my agenda for a long time (if ever, in fact) partly because of cost & partly because I think I will be able to achieve acceptable results with what I have.

As you say, best thing is to get to grips with what I have & push them to the limit before determining whether something else is needed or, I have reached the point of personal satisfaction with the outcomes. I have my plan of attack... it involves the KISS principal & moving ahead one step at a time, only when I have become competent in the previous step. First in line is getting my head around the EQ mount I just acquired; it's not the greatest mount ever but, it was very cheap (2nd hand) & will keep me happy for sometime to come I suspect.

The next purchase will likely be an 80mm APO but, not solely for AP; we have some travel plans that involve flying which makes taking the SCT or my next acquisition (a Gondwana Marana 12" dob} impractical. My decision on purchasing an APO will come down to how my little Orion 80mm ST performs both visually & for basic AP (I know it will have issues but, they may be acceptable in the short term), I also am thinking about something like the Sky Adventurer mount to combine with a decent photo tripod, again for air travel but, if I decide to only go with visual, then one of the cheap handraulic mounts I currently own will suffice for my immediate needs.

Cheers

[Camelopardalis]

Planetary season will come around soon enough :D

I wouldn’t bother trying to cool the 224 unless you intend to use it for long exposures. For lunar/planetary, the exposure times are so short that the accumulation of thermal current is negligible.