Mike can we have a G11 members area;)

[h0ughy]

Yes thats right i will be the proud owner of a g11 within the next week or so. Man am I happy, but now to dodge the machine gun nest manned by the wife.....................:D :whistle:

[iceman]

She can mount the machine gun on top of your EQ6 ;)

[[1ponders]]

Must have Losmandy to enter 'eh h0ughy. Gee that means I'll be the only moderator allowed in there :D

[Striker]

I wont bother asking for AP area.....lol

[Dennis]

H0ughy. You...you...elitist you! :P

In that case, how about a Tak area too, with it's in-built moderator, the one and only RB. :thumbsup:

Striker - you and GaryB might be a tad lonely in the exclusive and rarefied AP Club.:lol:

Cheers

Dennis

[JohnG]

Are you allowed in if you have a GM-8 and a G-11 but only one Gemini???????????:P

Cheers

JohnG

[wavelandscott]

If he gets his G11 members area then I want a "Cheap Chinese Gear" members area too :D

But, I think it would be okay to let the G11ers in too...for when the feel like "slumming" around with the rest of us mere mortals...

[xelasnave]

Great news can we tell friends we knew you when.....
But have you seen what you have done to the sky??
Buy the wife something of equal value avoid astronomy gifts however unless she insists.
alex

[h0ughy]

WHAT!!!!!!!!!! go get a haircut (AKA new avatar) if she knew my funeral would be the present:whistle: :rofl:

[h0ughy]

I still have 2 eq6 mounts;) :P

[h0ughy]

Leon would be with you;) he bought MarkW's Tak

Elitist, um no. realist yes:D ;)

[h0ughy]

thats a novel though - can do that but wont show her the slewing commands:lol: ;)

[xelasnave]

Ladies can be hurtful..My daughter in law said when present and I was buying only a cheap scope absolutley necessary for planetary work (no 3)..
"How many scopes do you need anyway":eyepop: I see nothing wrong with retaining two eq6 mounts :shrug: ... you can never have too many scopes is a trusted saying of mine so it stands to reason one needs to mount them;) .
I look forward to a shoot out comparison ...serious I need to know what I may be missing.
Good luck mate you only live once she cant argue with that be careful she does not prove it:D .
alex

[RB]

Make sure the autoguider's turned off Houghy or you'll have nowhere to run.

:whistle:

[[1ponders]]

Absolutely John. I have the same but NO Gemini. Argonavis all the way :cool: :D

[h0ughy]

would the argonavis just plug into the mount?

[[1ponders]]

No, you need to have encoders the same as with any other mount. However encoders would be a good idea with a gemini as well. That way you can push your mount wherever you want rather than using the motors and gemini will remember where the scope is pointing. If I ever decide on getting a gemini for either the GM8 or G11 I will definately be getting a set of encoders as well.

[JohnG]

Not quite hOughy, if it has a Gemini fitted you won't need the AN, if not you need some addittional hardware, DSC's and a couple of cables to make it work.

I agree Paul, I liked my AN when I had it. :D

Cheers

JohnG

[JohnG]

Paul, there has been, and still is, a lot of discussion on the Gemini Group about the use of encoders or DSC's, the great majority say don't fit them, can cause some interference with the Gemini although I believe they are disabled by default in Version 4.

I have a new V 4.02 chip but am yet to fit it and see.

Cheers

JohnG

[[1ponders]]

That's a bugger. I'll guess I'll just have to stick to the AN then ;)

[JohnG]

Yah can't go wrong there, they are good, especially with the new firmware, nearly as good as the Gemini. :thumbsup:

Cheers

JohnG

[[1ponders]]

Cmon John, ya know it's way better than the Gemini. ;)





:hi: gary :D

Sorry h0ughy :P

[gbeal]

Sorry Dennis, but in a round about sort of way I feel partly responsible for all the "mount traffic". I have sold the AP600, and gone to an EM200 T2. I'll let the new owner of the AP announce it's arrival, if she/he so desires.
Good idea this Tak group though, I am also now using an Epsilon for imaging, so have Takitis real bad.
Gary

[h0ughy]

you you you..............losmandy owner:P

So John, the new version 4, how much was it and how do you get it. how long has it been out. The mount I beleive is early 2004 vintage so not sure what version of the gemini that would make it? What do you do to upgrade it?

[JohnG]

You may want to check with the previous owner and see if it has the "High Precision Worm", from memory it came out about then.

As far as the Gemini is concerned, is it fitted with a Gemini unit???, they had to be specified or is it a stepper motor version.

If it has a Gemini fitted, should be about Version 3.13, mine originally was a V 3, I just got a new EPROM from the US, about $25 + postage I think, Thomas Hilton: http://www.astronomystores.net/store/ is probably one of the best for replacement bits and cables etc. Just take the old EPROM out and pop in a new one and your updated.

Failing that, a Gemini unit is about $1500 +, been a while since I have priced one :lol: , something you don't buy everyday :P

Welcome to the world of G-11's, you'll be an expert in no time. ;)

Cheers

JohnG

[h0ughy]

the gemini is fitted , so I can assume v3.13

[[1ponders]]

Throw it out and get an AN for it h0ughy. Nice and quiet :D

[JohnG]

It should be somewhere around that version, easily updated though, if you have access to an EPROM burner, you can download the HEX file and burn it otherwise have a look at that site I posted.

Cheers

JohnG

[JohnG]

Push to, Push to, no way, nothing like the sound of the motors whiring away :rofl:

Cheers

JohnG

[Striker]

Its really easy replacing the Eprom Houghy....I did it mine.
Just a matter of pulling out the chip and fitting the new one.

http://www.company7.com/losmandy/geminieprom.html

And the Eprom
http://www.astronomystores.net/store/cart.php?target=product&product_id=255&category_id=63&pageID=0

[h0ughy]

I will have to buy it as i do not have a burner for eproms. Will order it today.

[JohnG]

You may want to order an RS232 cable as well, to connect the Gemini to your computer, you need one for interfacing with computer programs:

http://www.astronomystores.net/store/cart.php?target=product&product_id=280&category_id=69

Gives you GOTO from just about any astro program vide ASCOM.

Cheers

JohnG

[acropolite]

Did you buy the one on ebay h0ughy, I was eyeing it off, even made a half baked attempt at justification (here in after known as the sales pitch) for purchase with HRH, all I got was a blank look, no reply.....a nod's as good as a wink to a blind horse. :sadeyes:

[h0ughy]

http://www.optcorp.com/product.aspx?pid=8673&kw=losmandy%20gemini&st=2 is this a necessity or not, would it be of benefit?

[h0ughy]

think it comes with the package?

[h0ughy]

yes

[[1ponders]]

Nahh, you don't need a gps for it h0ughy. It's easy enough to input. It's not as though this mount is going to be your normal travel mount ;)

[JohnG]

I agree, unless you are moving around all over the place, you don't need a GPS.

I suggested the RS-232 cable as it is how you interface with Astro programs.

All I can suggest is that you download the Gemini Manual and have a good read of it, there is a specific way you input things like your Lat & Long, UTC Date & Time, parameters etc.

Take specific note of how you do your Additional Aligns, it has to be done in a certain way.

Cheers

JohnG

As I said, welcome to the world of G-11's :lol:

[gary]

Hi John,

Thanks for the post but please allow me to clarify.

When GM-8/G-11 users suggest not to fit encoders, they mean do not bother
connecting the encoders to the Gemini. In theory, the Gemini provides for
an encoder interface that would allow the user to slew the scope using
muscle power (PUSHTO) but still maintain its position (down to the resolution of the
encoders). However, apparently this feature has been problematic on the Gemini.
For this reason, the general advice is not to bother using encoders interfaced
to the Gemini.

However, that is not to say that you still can't install encoders and use them
in conjunction with a DSC/DTC interfaced to them. You can even keep the
Gemini in place and use both systems in parallel. Many users in fact do this.

We stock genuine Losmandy parts DSCH which are the encoders and hardware
for the GM-8/G-11 and DGC which are the Delrin Gear Covers that help
protect your cables and fingers from getting caught. See here (http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au/kits/pn-g11-8l-spec_describe.html) for details.

Our Argo Navis DTC is a popular choice for GM-8/G-11 owners.
Common feedback from these users is that they often prefer PUSHTO over
GOTO because of its fast, reliable and quiet operation and that they enjoy the
power of the Argo Navis user interface.

As I mentioned, some users use both Argo Navis and Gemini systems in
parallel and there are no problems whatsoever in doing this. The two
systems are entirely independent and will not interfere with each other.

Therefore in summary where you say, "a lot of discussion on the Gemini Group
about the use of encoders or DSC's, the great majority say don't fit them,
can cause some interference with the Gemini", that is not entirely correct.
The advice is you can fit DSC/DTC systems, you can fit encoders and you can
operate them in parallel with the Gemini without any problem, just don't
connect the encoders to the encoder port of the Gemini itself.

Finally, it also gives me an opportunity to mention another reason why
Argo Navis is a popular choice on these mounts. Argo Navis has an
in-built Telescope Pointing Analysis System (TPAS) that can analyse and
compensate for several systematic geometric, gravitational and eccentric
errors that are quite common in these mount/OTA combinations. It will
even assist with polar misalignment and unlike a simple drift test will
take the other errors into account simultaneously.
For Part 1 of a case study of using TPAS on a G-11, see this link here -
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au/group_post_5573/

In order to view the graphics, grab a free copy of the Adobe SVG plugin from
here - http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/main.html

One of the important things about TPAS is that it provides you with
stastical feedback about your mount's raw and corrected pointing performance
along with hard statistics about the various systematic errors within the
mount/OTA. TPAS can make a world of difference for anyone considering
blind-pointing a CCD.

Thanks again for the post and hope the above clarifies this for yourself
and other GM-8/G-11 owners.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au

[JohnG]

"When GM-8/G-11 users suggest not to fit encoders, they mean do not bother
connecting the encoders to the Gemini. In theory, the Gemini provides for
an encoder interface that would allow the user to slew the scope using
muscle power (PUSHTO) but still maintain its position (down to the resolution of the
encoders). However, apparently this feature has been problematic on the Gemini.
For this reason, the general advice is not to bother using encoders interfaced
to the Gemini."

Hi Gary, long time since I spoke to you.

That is exactly what I am saying, I learnt early in the piece that having encoders with the Gemini was problematic, I found I could never get them to work properly so I abandoned the idea and sold them, since then I have never had further trouble, my opinion was that the encoders were no where the resolution of the Gemini and that was where the conflict was (my opinion only).

As I said in the original post, the encoders are disabled by default in V 4 so the problem may now be fixed.

Thanks for the explanation.

Cheers

JohnG :thumbsup:

[ving]

i have heard that g-11s are really bad ;)

hehe

[[1ponders]]

You need to get your ears cleaned then belle ;)

[h0ughy]

Gary,

say the argo is fitted, lets say you are out by heaps in finding the SCP, could you use the AN to precisely find the SCP instead of drift aligning?

[h0ughy]

I will be bringing it to sunny QLd:P

[[1ponders]]

Maybe you'll want to leave it up here. It is afterall very heavy and you won't be wanting to cart it all over the countryside with your back. :D

[ving]

flattery will get you no where! :rolleyes:

[[1ponders]]

:poke:

[JohnG]

Gemini has it's own Polar Alignment Correction (PAC) and Polar Alignment Assist (PAA) for that. :)

Cheers

JohnG

[Astroman]

Yep, makes aligning to the NCP a almost one step process :D

[ving]

hey it was you who said i was belle!:rofl:

[gary]

Hi h0ughy,

Thanks for the question.

Indeed, Argo Navis can do precisely that.

If you had no idea where to find the SCP whatsoever, there is one procedure
using the ALIGN function alone that will assist you in homing in it.

Once you are within a couple of degress, you can then use the polar alignment
feature of TPAS to further refine the polar alignment,

For example, if you are like me, you simply go outside, naked eyeball the
Cross and the Pointers and plonk the scope down. I can usually plonk the
mount down within a couple of degrees of the SCP. I will then perform
a one-star alignment and sample the position of anywhere between four
to six stars. The system will then report to me the amount of polar misalignment
in azimuth and elevation for the mount. What I then do is tell TPAS
to switch off the polar misalignment errors and I then GUIDE to a star.
The star will not be centered. I then adjust the mount in azimuth and elevation
until the star is centered. I am then polar-aligned.

The problem with a drift test is that it does not take into account the
geometric, gravitational flexure and any eccentric bearing errors within the
mount/OTA. These 'mount fabrication errors', along with polar misalignment
errors are entangled in a very complex way. What TPAS can do is magically
untangle all these errors for you. Most importantly of all, it then reports to
you its results in statistical terms. I cannot over empasize how important
a feature that is in any mount error and analysis correction system.
This statistical information can provide you with degrees of confidence in
the reported results. Without it, you could never be really sure whether
that the reported corrections are to be believed or not.

By way of further background, to use TPAS to its fullest, typically one
devotes one night to performing a long pointing test. For a mount like
a G-11, you might devote one Full Moon night to sampling perhaps 50 to 100
stars. TPAS will then provide statistical information on the mount's pointing
performance as well as what error terms contribute significantly to the
pointing model. Based on the information TPAS provides, you may even choose
to make mechanical corrections to the mount itself. For example, if it reported that
the OTA was not orthogonal to the Dec axis, you might decide to shim the OTA.
(If you don't, there will be a region around the pole your scope will not
be able to point). Alternatively, you may decide to not mechanically adjust
anything and simply let TPAS provide a pointing correction. The system allows
you to save a model from a long pointing run for use on a subsequent night.

When you take the mount out again on a subsequent night, you then typically
peform a short pointing run of perhaps four to six stars. This allows you
to re-synchronize the model and to re-determine the polar misalignment
terms.

Large professional observatories using nearly identical analysis techniques
as discussed above to improve the pointing performance of their scopes.

Like most users, I find TPAS faster and more convenient than a drift test
as well. There is no need to own a polar-alignment scope nor any
requirement to find Sigma Octanis.

You can read more about TPAS on pp 115-142 of the Argo Navis User's
Manual. See
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au/downloads/documentation/argoman8.pdf

Remember, if you ever see a system that claims to provide mount error
correction or polar correction but does not provide statistical feedback,
treat the results with scepticism. There are many reasons for this, but
one of the most important attributes of a model is its predictive behaviour.
For example, it is one thing to have a pointing model that provides
corrections for the mount on one night. However, ideally the model should
be able to provide corrections for subsequent observing sessions in the future.
Only with statistical results can one have any level of confidence in a model's
worth at some point in the future.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place
Mount Kuring-Gai NSW 2080
Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au

[gary]

G'day John,

Great to hear from you again and hope you have been well. Are you still
down at Bermagui? I bet it would be a tough life down there. ;)

I guess only the Gemini designers would know why the encoder port
feature does not work. It's a pity as sometimes some users would just like
to manually push the mount for a while now and then (you mention you
attempted this yourself).

I know with our customers that own the ServoCAT system, which
is mainly seen on larger Dobs, it is an attribute they particularly like
about that system. That is, they can flick the levers and fly manually
for a while, then flick back and go on full 'auto-pilot'.

Once again, great to see you here on IceInSpace and take care.

Best Regards

Gary

[snowyskiesau]

Gary,
Thanks for the hint re polar alignment. Something to try when the clouds go away....

[leon]

I'll have to have two area's one for the Tak and one for the G11. :whistle:

Cheers leon :thumbsup:

[h0ughy]

OK Gary, what's needed and how much is it?

[JohnG]

OK hOughy, i'll bite

Why would you run a Gemini and an AN at the same time :shrug: doesn't make sense to me.

Cheers

JohnG

[matt]

Yes, good question John.

I thought they both served the same purpose:shrug:

Someone's going to have stereo go-to!:lol:

[h0ughy]

I delusionally thought that it would help make finding the SCP easier - no problems with me though:lol: :whistle: :P :help: . I have yet to read the manual on anything and I have just sent away for the upgrade to version 4 for the gemini:D . Just thought I would ask though. While you are on the biting side at the moment, would a GPS plugged into the mount improve the timing and location calculations????

[[1ponders]]

:looks down, put hand to forehead and shakes head ruefully:

Damn don't have that smilie


:lol:

[h0ughy]

:ashamed: :face:

dinner time , must cook BBq for family

[Striker]

Houghy just update your Eprom to level 4.....finding SCP is not needed anyway..just drift align it's far more accurate.
No the GPS is not needed the mount is far more accurate then your skyscan.
Have your BBQ and dont spend anymore money.

[JohnG]

Have to agree with Tony, all I did was a Drift Align and on startup, look at the A & E numbers, if your DA was reasonably good, then that is all you will need. (Your going to have learn all this)

The Gemini is quite happy be a few degrees out of alignment, you build up a model using Additional Aligns, and it soon works out where you are and will easily put the object near the center of the eyepiece.

Save your money for the "D" series dovetail plates you are going to need.

Use a GPS by all means to give you your Lat and Long and UTC Time but you can input them manually, using GCC (Gemini Control Center) or by attaching to the Gemini control box, you have to make sure you have the correct attachment.

Get the manual from here: http://www.docgoerlich.de/Rene.html

Cheers

JohnG

[ballaratdragons]

If Houghy gets his G11 members area, we want an EQ6 area, a GS Dob area, an ED80 area . . . .

I'm sure many would like a Meade area, a Celestron area, an SCT area, a Mak area, a Skywatcher area, a HEQ5 area . . .

A Losmandy area, an Argo Navis area, a Synscan area . . . .

Ahhh stuff it. Make a seperate area for every item :lol:

[h0ughy]

LOL Ken the G11 is a Losmandy mount!!

Was being facetious by asking for a separate area. :rofl:

THanks John and Tony for the advice.:thumbsup:

BTW the BBQ was very nice:D :P

[h0ughy]

BTW I am not the cause of the weather??

[DobDobDob]

No, but wouldn't it be awesome if you were????