Lake Macquarie Council Installing 5609 LED Street Lights!

[glend]

Just found out that Lake Macquarie Council is going to start replacing all of the streetlights with broad spectrum LEDs commencing in January. That is 5609 individual lights. This really dismays me as I have been fighting the Council for some years about the creeping light pollution. The Council has no light pollution policy, has no designated officer responsible, and all developments only have to meet the very old Aus Standard from the 1990s for out door illumination. Decision made without community consultation, based on cost savings to the Council (bet there is no rate reduction).
Some shadowed LEDs actually are much better than the old incandescent bucket type fittings, but the photos in the local paper look more like car park lights.
Given the vast bush areas all through the Council domain, the effects of LED on the nocturnal animals has never been considered, and I had written to them about "lighting up the Bush for no good reason" on several occasions; including links to the studies on the effect of substantially blue light LEDs on local birds and nocturnal animal reproduction (basically it messes up their seasonal signalling brought on by natural light cycles). Reproduction declines, populations decline, etc.
I moved to this area substantially for the darkness, I am going to have to accept that I can not influence this bunch. At least I was successful in getting one light on my street replaced with a shielded LED, thanks to actually catching some reasonable Ausgrid guys in the area, hope they don't replace it now.
Time to move again I fear. It could be worse, if Bunnings decided to plonk one of their stores nearby.:shrug:

[alan meehan]

I heard the same thing Glen and also some talk that Newcastle is to go the same way they have got no idea ,as you say just to save a buck

[LewisM]

Canberra Airport corporation installed LED's in all the street lighting here and around the airport. The sky glow is NOTICEABLY brighter.

Can't we just turn lights OFF at night to save the money they think they are saving? Do ants and moths need to see where they are going? Do they feel threatened in the dark?

[xelasnave]

Leaving the lights on makes it easier for enemy bombers to strike...all lights should go out at night to reduce that risk.
Alex

[doppler]

If they were clever they would install sensor lights, that would dim or turn off when nobody was there to need or see the light, like most of the night. This would work with the new led's that don't have to warm up like the old sodium lights. My car has headlights anyway, the streetlights are only really for pedestrians so there should only be footpath lights


https://www.meanwell-led-drivers.com.au/smart-street-lighting-coming-australia , I wonder how this trial went?

[JeniSkunk]

Here in Brisbane, there is a 2 year trial of LED street lighting in progress, being operated between the Brisbane City Council and Energex, using excessively bright LED modules, which are all improperly shielded, and which are all incorrectly installed.
The main driver for the infliction of this light pollution is the city council wanting to cut the cost of lighting Brisbane suburban streets. LEDs mean more light for less cost.

[sharpiel]

I agree

[ngcles]

Hi Glen,

I'm probably stating the bleedingly obvious, but have you spoken to them about Council's obligations to comply with Australian Standards, in particular AS 4282—1997 -- Control of the obtrusive effects of outdoor lighting?

I think you will find somewhere in the Council documents that they are bound to only act in accordance with Australian Standards.


Best,

L.

[glend]

AS4282 says...". This Standard does not apply to-
(a) public lighting, as defined in Clause 1.4.10;
(b) internally illuminated advertising signs;
(c) the obtrusive effects of brightly lit surfaces, e.tc......"

Street Lights are public lighting, but they are covered under AS/NZ1158.

"This Standard specifically refers to the potentially adverse effects of outdoor lighting on nearby residents (e.g. of dwellings such as houses, hotels, hospitals), users of adjacent roads (e.g. vehicle drivers, pedestrians, cyclists) and transport signalling systems (e.g. air, marine, rail), and on astronomical observations."

However, since public lighting is exempt, and street lights covered under AS1158, it's effect on astronomical observations are not considered grounds for objection or violation of the Standard.

Believe me I have not been able to find anyone at the Council who cares. The planning approvals folks only care about DAs complying, or sighting, AS4282 in the Environmental Impact Statement supplied by the developer. I found that the Trinity Point Development (approved) actually submitted a EIS written by a subsidiary of the developer. It's enough to convince me it's all rigged.:shrug:

[skysurfer]

Then these LEDs are very badly designed.
Here in many places in the EU, most newer LED installations contain fully shielded luminaries and 3000K (instead of the more skyglow generating bluer 4000-5000K) which darken the sky compared to previous bulb protruding sodium or fluorescent lamps. The first generation indeed has the 5000K harsh white LEDs.
Maybe CBR airport has the (bad) policy "the more light for the same energy the better" which I consider as an abuse of the energt saving of LEDs.


This is probably a joke.

Australia has no enemies in the sense of that enemies bombing cities and if enemies do (North Korea ?), they don't need city lights to find cities, that was in the WWII era. Thanks to GPS, any target can be found without any lighting at night.

[glend]

Actually, if it came to a nuclear war, the first thing to get taken out would be the GPS satellites. The US can certainly degrade precision of the GPS system at any time, and sharpen it up to zero offset within minutes for its own purposes. Hunter killer satellites would just sweep along the GPS belt. But this is a digestion.

As to modern Euro LEDs, looking at the light pollution map of Europe, i doubt any choice of street lighting is going to help make the skys anywhere near as dark as Australia. I suspect my Council will buy the cheapest nastiest ones available, the last thing they seem to care about is investing in the best, this is about saving money.

[N1]

Sadly, it's not human nature to be efficient (i.e. achieve same outcome with less input). Instead, we are geared to want more effect, not spend less on input.



If you read Alex' other 3 or so posts on here, you'll know he means business ;)

[DarkArts]

Although precision GPS-guided weapons can put a missile or bomb "through a window", without satellite navigation, ICBMs can still guide accurately across thousands of kilometres with a Circular Error Probable (50%) typically less than 500m since the 80s, or less than 100m at present, or so it is alleged.

In other words, "they" don't even need GPS to hit cities with nukes. :(

Now, to make sure this post is on topic, an air burst at 300m altitude would create the mother of all light pollution ... ;)

[Allan_L]

Hi Glen,
Sorry to hear of these plans.
Probably will be followed by Central Coast in due course.
But it could be worse...
:help:

hopefully this is "fake news"
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-18/chinese-city-plans-to-launch-artificial-moon-by-2020/10392862?fbclid=IwAR2Y5IcgW4eIGwh0x Rd0ch0KSam-HIudxHy6iar9FVJINVK0lq9ayzv5cTw

[Imme]

You make me laugh Alex

[glend]

Hi Allan, yes I fear that the entire coast from southern Sydney / the Royal National Park boundary, right up to Nelson's Bay will be heavily Iight polluted within a few years. There will be fewer and fewer gaps. As we noticed at the Pony Club, the intrusion of Sydney LP has become significant.
I drove past the Morisset Business Park area on my way down to Wyee Nursery this morning, and vast areas of bush have been bulldosed flat, with new slabs and buildings going up to more than double the size of the business park. More businesses, wanting direct M1 access, bringing staff (who will want nearby housing etc). Rampant development.

[AndyG]

Thanks to the plasma sheath on re-entry, GPS isn't an option. Internal guidance does the job quite well enough as you mentioned. Then comes the "canned sunlight"...

[dpastern]

lol!



Everything is $$$ and public safety. Nothing else matters.



Politicians do NOT care about amateur astronomers or light pollution. The simple way of fixing this issue is to repetitively take out LEDs with a small BB gun. Just keep doing it until it becomes an expensive issue to maintain.

[glend]

While I am angry about it, I am not about to get arrested for gunning public lighting, and it is a bad idea to encourage it imho. And it would be a real crusade to try and take out all 5,609 of them. They do have a plastic globe thing over them, from what I can see of the one close to my place.
I believe the vast majority of the dark fearing population would welcome ever more lighting flooding their yards and homes.

[xelasnave]

It could be that a power assembing intelligence would welcome maps showing lighting distribution ... therefore it is critical we turn off all lights so as not to give the enemy anything.
Look at North Korea they dont have a "night light footprint" .... mmm I wonder if you can buy country real estate in North Korea ... they must have plenty of dark sites☺
Anyways any loyal Australian should join the campaign to cut out night lights so as to restrict data fom the enemy.

Please go on face book and explain to your friends how silly it is to allow the enemy to spy on us...I know its crazy but the fact is probably 50% would buy it and the doubting 50% would keep quiet rather than draw attention to the folk switching out light to gaurd our secrets.

Anyways part of the astronomy challenge is to get around the problem.
I just had a crazy idea.
You send up a beam of light in a cylinder shape say a meter diameter with your scope imaging thru the center of the tube...in other words we have like a tube of light ...dark in the center think pipe and the light would represent the wall ofcthat pipe..say a meter maybe more or less...but that light should interfere with incoming light such that the city light is somewhat diluted going throught the wall of our pipe of light...then it should be easier to filter out the light at the wave length we send up...and the city light should be easily removed.

Its tuff in the city but there are ways even before my idea is taken up☺
Long focal length short exposures ... maybe a type of flat frame to remove sky glow...
OK there is only one solution...a tax...tax on light polution...Its outta the bag now...
Alex

[dpastern]

I disagree. Sometimes civil disobedience is the only way to handle things.

why should I respect a society that doesn't respect me?

[xelasnave]

Paint all the lights red...we could all see what we want to see...and red like is so cool and means you will age slower and be more attractive and sucessful...it must be true I read it on face book.

Alex

[glend]

You crack me up Alex. Every street would become a red light district. :rofl:

[doppler]

You just need a few turtles to move into the area.


https://www.news-mail.com.au/news/drivers-seeing-red-over-new-roundabout-lighting/2480075/


http://www.bundaberg.qld.gov.au/news/2018/05/23/new-street-lights-give-turtles-power-survive

[xelasnave]

We just need some marketing to adjust the populace on their negative thoughts on red light.
Red light is good for you its the same colour as blood and blood gives life and if you that away the red blood we die so clearly red is a great colour...remember Santa ...you were only young and you just loved his red suit...red is good.
And if elected I promise to change all the street lights to red .....
I have been thinking of my idea and wonder if it would work...it must work they always work therefore there could be something in it...
Test one.
How to determine if one light can interfere with another..that must be on the net...
Should have one built by morning.
Alex

[RickS]

Actually, I've seen science that suggests orange is better than red. But we're all agreed that bluish is terrible!

[xelasnave]

The current ligthing is responsible for all crime and most illnesses.
Blue is associated with royalty and oppression of the masses...we are not going to have blue lights..

Alex

[xelasnave]

I have seen research saying pink was a good colour but I dont know really but maybe made folk happier
Maybe a very red sortta orange with a little pink...
The only hope is for my lightvinterference set up to work..croud funding☺
Its clear but I drove down yesterday and had a big day and I have to lug it all up the stairs and set up...
Alex

[RickS]

Orange is apparently better than red in terms of maintaining dark adaption. Not sure what that means in terms of happiness for non-astronomers and not sure if I care :lol:

[xelasnave]

Orange it is then☺
Alex

[glend]

Perhaps you should suggest it to the Orange City Council, what a branding opportunity.

[silv]

@skysurfer
Wishful thinking, disregarding psychology involved. When city council projects began to look at LED, let's just say, in 2013-ish, they decided on type x of test lights and stuck with that type ever since.

Indeed, it is park lights being installed here, too. For aesthetic reasons. It even says so in the city council meeting protocol from 2013. Because they match the previous models but come with LEDs. No shielding, just a huge bulb with a funny tiny hat like a cartoon character.
Why do the politicians stick with type x? Because. It's easier. Lazyness is a form of efficiency.

I'm beginning to think the impulse has to come from the manufacturer, not the city politicians/clerks. If the trusted manufacturer starts a product line that fulfils proven requirements and simply tells politicians "This is it. You won't get your cartoon character bulbs anymore. Period." then psychological knowledge predicts humans would just go with it. Bc people are lazy. In the case of my city here, there'd be no one objecting. Nor looking for a different supplier - for yet another psychological reason: the manufacturer they chose in 2013 is an East German one - and people over here in this eastern part of the country are 25% reactionary disciples of "Germany First!" and "Germany for the Germans!"
*grumblegrumblegrumble*

[skysurfer]

But there is more than GPS. There is Galileo (EU), Glonass (Russia) which cannot be controlled by the US.
And Europe is indeed far more light polluted than Australia: 500 million vs only 40 million people, on the same surface (and living standard) makes a lot of difference.
And, indeed many councils don't care about energy consumption because electricity st still ridiculously cheap.

[glend]

I don't know where you live but that is not the case in Australia.

And folks can we move off the nuclear war/GPS rants and get back on topic or I will ask for this thread to be closed. As it stands it has ptobably served its purpose anyway, as a few respondents that live in adjacent council areas are now aware.

[RB]

Exactly Glen.

RB

[dpastern]

Deleted.
TOS violation.
Profanity filter bypass.

[dpastern]

Deleted.
TOS violations.
Including Profanity filter bypass.

[N1]

European skies have rock steady seeing, galaxies galore, and aurorae anyone in the S hemisphere can only dream of, unless they go to Antarctica.

Meanwhile, Dunedin appears to be listening to concerns re LED lighting (https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/led-lamps-be-trialled-south-dunedin), at least to some degree.

[dpastern]

Deleted, TOS violations.

Permanent Ban.

RB

[AndyG]

Excellent :) I'm off to Japan for 1 month next week. We're bringing the 102 Mak and mount in the luggage. I've never seen the Northern Hemisphere sky through any kind of optic. I'm sure Sky Safari will offer some teasers as to what to find.

Need to escape possibly the worst LP on Earth however... let's see how it goes.

[pmrid]

Accepting for the sake of argument that there is a legitimate need for street and park lighting, and accepting for the moment that the old sodium etc lights were dreadful, and accepting also that bright blue-tending LEDs are also a disaster, and of course accepting the orange is the new black, what are the alternatives to all of the above. How efficient, for example, is shielding of an otherwise offensive light? And for the bean-counters, how much does shielding skew the cost-benefit equation from the point of view of local governments?

Peter

[AndyG]

Good questions Peter,
I'd put forth the idea of retrofitting (into existing sockets), limited spectrum LEDs, with integrated secure IOT based management with local sensors and nearby peer networking.

In simpler terms, a light that:
Has good watts to lumens ratio, a spectrum that is useful to accident avoidance, limited impact on local wildlife rythms, knows when to turn off when ambient light is sufficient (sun, full moon, other sources), turns off in the absence of vehicles, but is aware of incoming traffic via it's peers, has a range of intensity settings (not just on/off), soft start/soft off. Finally, all usage patterns are sent to a management system for constant analysis and optimisation.

In super simpler terms, the least amount of light needed under the circumstances unique to that individual light, is emitted by said light. At large scales, I believe the IOT management hardware could be had for an extra $10-50 per bulb.

I don't even think anything I've listed above is original. It's had to have been done somewhere already.

[silv]

good questions.
One has to word the argument really carefully. But in the end it's a public service and has to comply with environmental protection considerations.
From the point of view of the affected fauna: if one species alters their reproduction cycle due to unshielded blue light, either their prey or their predators are affected as well. Altering that food chain in cities as well as in more rural areas should come at a measurable cost for humans, too.

So I wouldn't stop at the question of cost for a proper bulb hood - that'd be arguing our "opponents' " side. I would explain and list the cost from the EP pov. And add the hood-cost comparison only as an afterthought.

Dunedin is lucky. Their museum director (now retired I think) is into aurora photography. Beautiful photos! Maybe astronomy as well. I assume, from his role as director he knows all the current council members on a first name basis and knows how to "deal" with them, how to explain stuff so it makes sense to non-astronomers.

Could be invaluable to ask him whether and how he influenced/lobbied for particular test LED models.

[silv]

Great thoughts, Andy.
Basic management in cities is done already with old lights, according to their abilities. Not dimming, of course, but on/off and noticing when a bulb failed.
So there might be hardware infrastructure already in the ground to do more detailed management.

Which would make IOT over the air superfluous. And that would save the council fights with anti-IOT citizens.
Due to decades of lobbying and disinformation tactics from the mobile industry, not nearly enough studies have been performed on the affect of the various frequencies on cell types.
Polluting the environment with 21.000 IOT elements, the # of street lights in my city, is a big deal and would have to be thoroughly investigated. Especially if all the public rubbish bins and whatnot go on-air, as well.

[AndyG]

Fair point :) As the EM radiation vs. cells debate is far from resolved (with genuinely bad consequences at certain ends of the gamut), how about networking via power frequency modulation? A basic, low bandwidth, highly robust iteration of Ethernet Over Power could link lights and accessories over long distances This would offer no EM pollution and minimal modification to the existing infrastructure.

[Wavytone]

I'd really like to see the councils realise they could switch off streetlights in residential street after about 10pm, leaving them on only around major intersections and arterial roads. There are examples in the UK where this is now the norm with no adverse consequence, and a huge saving in electricity.

Hint: there aren't any pedestrians late at night.

The result is stunning - you can actually see the milky way in areas where that was previously impossible.

[N1]

Not retired, still going...and he "dealt with them" by chairing an advisory panel specifically set up in 2016 on pressure from various groups in the astro and dark skies community to provide recommendations to council (DCC) on the proposed LED streetlight rollout. I had the great privilege to be on said panel myself (representing the local astro community as that would have conflicted with Ian's role as chair), alongside (and this was absolutely critical), representatives of other stakeholders in the community: people with disabilities, wildlife tour operators, the police, biologists, and scientists investigating the effects of blue light on the (human) circadian rhythm. The panel got to work and produced a set of recommendations to the DCC, which were adopted to an extent, but notably including the 3000K colour temp. It took the best part of 2 years but hey. I'm mildly enthusiastic about living in a city which at the very least, appears to be willing to listen.

[AndyG]

Damn good to hear. Actually, I've never heard of such a story anywhere else myself. At least there's a precedence for good outcomes regarding a council.

[Wavytone]

The problem with a city like Sydney is we have 30 councils each determined to do their own thing. More when you count the extended urban area to Wollongong, Gosford and Blue Mountains.

The notion of getting agreement from all of them is inconceivable - the only way would be a single body like IPART to push for adherence to a uniform lighting code. That has been tried before... and decades before any noticeable is visible in the sky from say Katoomba.

[N1]

For a big city, astronomy has next to no relevance (but should not be ignored completely). Main focus should be on health concerns and light trespass, and perhaps wildlife. Besides better street lighting, a council that accepts that LP is a problem will be more likely to try to establish some limits around what the private sector is allowed to do. And that's where the real problem lies. The Bunnings or servo down the road is much more concerning than the street light out front, IMHO. For astronomy, it's the surrounding rural areas that stand to benefit from reduced light spill rather than the city itself. This will be true for cities of any size.

[Wavytone]

The problem with that kind of thinking is that applied across the board we’d have no parks, no open spaces - not even trees - just wall-to-wall tar roads, car parks, blocks of apartments, shopping centres, hospitals and schools.

And that pretty much sums up some parts of Sydney already - it’s clearly what will happen if developers like Meriton are given free reign.

The difficulty with that model is there is nothing for people to do in leisure time - short of jumping in a car and driving for hours to some hopelessly overcrowded beach or patch of grass. But then according to some, leisure is a waste of time. And it becomes reality for many because to go anywhere nice takes so bloody long - and the cost - you don’t, and instead stay at home in front of the TV getting fat & lazy.

If you want to live like that I suggest go to any of dozens of cities in India or China where the environment has been totally destroyed - and that is the norm - and find out what’s wrong with it. The neglect of the environment there is so bad the sun is not visible by day - the air is a grey murk that tells you its daylight. And no moon, no stars.

It’s like that for many hundreds of kilometres, and there are real consequences for vegetation, trees, agricultural crops. There are no birds to be seen or heard. No animals either, other than those in cages being force fed.

That is the end result from people who think like you do.

The night sky is equally part of the environment. If you don’t start to care about it’s destruction you’ll realise one day astronomy has been destroyed too.

[silv]

Extraordinary, N1/Mirko!

"a city" is made of people, it's not an anonymous soulless concrete building.
You were a soul in that city's commission and the museum director was another, and, and, and.

It pays off to engage, apparently. Put cynicism aside and be "we, the people" kind of thing?

I'm struggling with that concept. Cynicism is much more comfortable for me, too... I should pr'bly engage and be one of the souls in "We, the people of Rostock". Like you did in Dunedin. For the benefit of generations of stargazers and aurora chasers.

:)

[N1]

Sorry Nick & Annette, I wasn't being cynical. I should qualify what I said perhaps. I think astro absolutely should be possible from your yard/balcony etc wherever that might be! I too resent having to drive in order to enjoy nature (incl. the night sky). I too have cursed Sydney's light dome many a time (and those of Malmö and Copenhagen, which can be seen from Germany across the Baltic Sea). But if you're going to convince the general population of the importance of minimising light pollution, believe me, advocating what is generally perceived as a nerdy & likeable but ultimately niche hobby as your main reason is not going to cut it. We've had to deal with that problem ourselves and were very careful to avoid (or at least mitigate) the kind of "your hobby vs my security" tangent that seems inevitable in this discussion. People and governments must understand that the problem is much more serious than not being able to see some galaxy. It's about your health and mine, it's about the general environment which are being disrupted & damaged. And those problems are very real. Fix them, and (sub)urban astronomy is bound to improve as well.

[silv]

Yes. You're right.

Do you think the commission's report is online available on the council's website?
Do you know which lamp model(s) they went with since the council's decision in 2016 for testing? Cartoon character models with a tiny hat, for example?

Thanks again for your encouraging story.

[AndyG]

I'm spending the next few weeks in Nara, Japan, and have paid attention to the street lights since reading this thread.

Much of Nara is world heritage listed, and as such, the ward office has paid attention to a few things. Most buildings are limited to 7 floors tall, and lighting is restricted. The street lights in residential areas resemble aftermarket reversing lights on a ute. 3-4000k, 8x LED modules, about the size of a pack of ciggies.

They don't blind anyone, and encourage your eyes to adapt. I suspect it's mostly to prevent pedestrian injury from cars. Personal safety is far less an issue, as crime has a distinctly different flavour here.

Now for the clouds to clear so I can pull out the little 102mm Mak we brought...

[pjphilli]

Does anyone know what the spectrum of these led street lights is? My current light pollution filter does a good job of notching out the local mercury street light and further afield highway sodium lights. I fear that the led lights will have a broad spectrum and render my lpf useless. Hope they are not anything like these horrible bright white led car headlights that have come into vogue.

[N1]

The panel's recommendations have not been published (and it's not for me to do so), but the Astro Society's Dark Skies Group provided the input below, which, in large parts, became the back bone for the panel's recommendations. These would obviously be modified to some extent to work for your area, but you get the idea - treat them as suggestions. To be read in the context of a proposed change from sodium vapour to LED street lighting. Note also that these are over 2 years old, and the current understanding is that even 3,000K is really too high. If you think there was no way for these to be accepted by 100% a) as being the panel's ultimate recommendations, and b) by council, with a commitment to act, you're right. Some parts did make it through that process however.


Objectives:

I. Downward total light flux must not exceed current levels, horizontal and above light flux must be reduced substantially.

II. Amount of blue light entering residential properties must not exceed pre LED levels.

III. Total emitted amount of blue light must be minimised.

IV. The public must be informed and given the opportunity for comment and its concerns must be addressed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Implementation:

1. Establish lighting zones throughout the city based on District Plan, and in addition, zones that should enjoy particular protection, and define maximum outdoor lighting colour temperature, threshold values for "obtrusive lighting" and other restrictions for each. The colour temperature limit shall not be more than 3,000K in any zone other than industrial, where up to 4,000K may be permitted. Notwithstanding the above, the colour temperature in each zone shall be as low as practicable;

2. All outdoor lighting must use fully shielded downward pointing luminaires;

3. The colour temperature of any outdoor lighting must be minimised;

4. The amount of time any outdoor lighting is used must be minimised. Default state of lighting in outdoor areas not in use must be "off". Achievable for instance by time and motion control;

5. Enact regulations that stipulate items 1-4 must be followed by the private sector;

6. All street lighting to adhere to stipulations under items 1-4. The range of luminaires being considered for street lighting to be expanded to include amber, narrow spectrum LEDs, CT of 2,000-2,200K such as KIM Lighting Warp9 amber, TypeX amber [...];

7. Any newly installed street lighting technology must allow installation of smart technology for dimming and on-demand lighting, including but not limited to motion detection and time control;

8. Circulate LED information pack approved by the Dark Sky Advisory Panel. Contents must inform of current research on LEDs and their effects on human and environmental health;

9. Implement a permanent internal dark skies unit to consult with major stakeholders on major lighting decisions, to marshall items 1-7, to provide updates when necessary on item 8, and to implement and administer a public feedback system, wherby the the public can insist that any obtrusive lighing be turned off or shielded and other lighting matters be addressed;

10. Promote dark sky protection legislation at national level.

[silv]

You're a star! Thanks a million, Mirko.