The mind boggles

[Exfso]

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/kids/alpha-addy-is-the-next-shooting-sensation-and-nra-darling-as-youtube-instagram-and-facebook-profiles-grow/news-story/1142f0c553f6a6da977c0f14e9171b4c?ut m_source=news.com.au%20%E2%80%94%20 Australia%E2%80%99s%20

[AstralTraveller]

Meanwhile


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-04/dancing-fbi-agent-accidentally-shoots-bar-patron-in-denver/9830760

[archioptic]

https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527

[el_draco]

ah yes... dumb and dumber... any takers on how much dumber that country can become?

[OICURMT]

Versus Australia? Or are you just wanting an opinion on the US only...

[sil]

Who said anything about Australia? We can't possibly compete with the level of dumbness Americans consistently show while never showing the world they can be anything more.

[LewisM]

But...but...but America is the EXCEPTIONAL nation...as has been told to the world yet again by the current administration....

[xelasnave]

Come generalising is not helpful.

The little girl thing points to a problem of how parents start training kids at an early age to do this or that and that approach is not limited to the USA.

At least she is being trained , hopefully in responsible gun (rifle) management.

I was watching Pawn Stars and a lady presented a hand gun that she purchased at a garage sale which is alarming and points to the real issue that controls are really needed.

There are many folk over there who would like to see gun laws reviewed and they are not stupid.

Anyways just because a large number of folk voted for Trump there are many not so stupid who see thru him.

Alex

[Kal]

They should make this un-named 9 year old girl the poster child of the NRA


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Charles_Vacca

[xelasnave]

Her ability could be transfered to more profitable sports say pool...maybe we will see her in future olipmpics. ..then after a medal go on the pool circuit.
She could make a fortune promoting the happy image of the shooting family the training the equipment.
Its all too much when you think about things for a long time.. I think there should be an Olympic medal for the mini gun ...you would have to train hard to keep a good grouping. And would help sales of mini guns...
If you are trying to stop your government turning on you they will think twice if all citizens have mini guns.
Alex

[clive milne]

Judging by the long list of blithering idiots and white collar criminals that we routinely elect to public office, I wouldn't be so quick to call pot, kettle black.

2c

[Peter Ward]

Sadly, the simple truth is a nation gets the politicians it deserves.

I have only contacted my Federal member directly once in a decade (it was to do with an airport in my backyard...which despite being a brain dead proposition was only canned after a $2million EIS survey found it was indeed brain dead ).

But there is sooo much more ineptitude shown by our local member on other, shall we say, less pressing issues that I apathetically let go to the keeper.

I can only look in the mirror and say...give the buggers hell, or stay silent.

[AndyG]

I think it's a real pity that sports shooters get lumped in with nutbags on the regular. The US is a whole other country, so I try not to jump at automatic comparisons between their problems/solutions and our own. Suffice to say that the "nutbag" quotient amongst both gun owning populations is astonishingly low. So low in fact, that with all the media coverage of the nutbags, any attempt to prove the "low nutbag" quotient is typically met with disbelief.



We could all give examples of other groups and their percieved assumed habits and behaviours, but the thread would be locked within 15mins. <edit>Mods are watching this thread - make that 2mins.<edit> I'd rather see this thread live to a ripe old age :)






Hopefully she is getting just that opportunity. The pessimist in me says she's just a cash cow for her parents in the internet celebrity age. But in saying that, I risk being as bad as the presumptiousness I hinted at above.





In the "internet celebrity age" (yeah, I just made that up), anything can be profitable. Think of something astronomically lame, give it a paying audience, and watch the money roll in. I'm happy she's doing something constructive, as long as her head is screwed on right.


I got a bit of a giggle seeing her holding that SCAR-H. I'd imagine the kick of a 7.62 would send her to the physiotherapist in a jiffy. Not hanging on her though - her stance and method are good. She's seems like the real deal.



I like your idea for the olympics Alex. Your gift for the whimsical remains firm. Sadly, at last (unofficial) count there were only 6 individual GAU-2/XM-134s in civilian ownership. Since 1986 there has been zero purchases of such on the "new" market. Maybe the Army could sponsor the event?






Absolutely right. The erosion of what we hold dear as individuals is subtle, and none of us care enough to do anything about it on a given day. Australian resiliance is a great thing, but "She'll be right Mate", works against us sometimes...

[el_draco]

Either way... Both our countries have genius types and absolute numpties but the U.S. beats Australia hands down at the moment, in regard to the later at least..

- Your "president" would be a world wide joke if he wasn't so dangerous and deluded.... but someone voted for him... apart from Putin of course :screwy:
- Anyone who thinks your gun "laws" are sane just ain't dealing with reality... Just one name should have ended any argument to the contrary "Sandy Hook" and yet, how many thousands of children have been slaughtered since in the name of whatever amendment to the constitution let to this insanity? :sadeyes:

- and I wont mention the other elephant in the room. Even Syria ratified Paris! :rolleyes:

[OICURMT]

My poke at Aussies was a bit tongue in cheek, as I notice there is a trend toward a less tolerance on almost any subject here on IIS... just wondering if IIS is becoming the new FaceBook for Amateur Astronomers.


Overall, I tend to agree, but quite simply, the problem regarding guns here is a little more complex that "take them away"... The 2nd amendment was created for a reason, which IMHO now no longer applies. There is not enough support to pass a referendum and executive orders do not work when it impedes a constitutional right. I personally think that Australia has struck the right balance in gun ownership. I owned four when I was living there and the process was easy to obtain them. As the saying goes... "walk a mile in someone else's shoes", Australia has shown me it can work.



The US is currently 10th to 13th (source dependent) for deathrate by guns (3.85/100k) and tops the list of developed countries. The next developed country is Finland at 3.25/100k. FYI, Australia sits around 1/100k. This in my mind proves that proper gun legislation can and does work without trampling the rights of the individual. If the US would only perform a mental assessment prior to purchase, then we could probably halve the deathrate. Our laws are based on the reality of the consitution, which you should read, particular the 4th amendment, which at times can play into the 2nd and the 14th amendment, which can conflict with Federal laws where there is no specific clarity of jurisdiction. It is the 14th amendment which states use to control things like magazine size (as this is not specifically stated in the 2nd amendment).



Trump is problematic, period... but his base of voters is strong, probably stronger than you hear in the AU media. His approval rating has risen significantly due to three factors 1) Low unemployment (lowest in 17 years); 2) Bull run on the NYSE; and 3) the current NK negotiations... which many here (on both sides of the aisle) think may lead to a Nobel Prize.


Lastly, the Paris agreement... the US still has a significant number of deniers. Just as you can't speak to Apollo Hoax conspiracy believers, you can't convince people that pissing in the bathtub results in tainted water... The most recent view here relates to the current trend of the solar cycle which might result in a deflection from the warming trend. I read a very good article yesterday stating that if the solar cycle trend continues, that a cooling effect would negate the warming (think Maunder or Dalton mimunum).


In closing, thanks for your pithy jabs at the US, keep us honest. We are approaching the mid-terms, which should create some interest abroad. Then, two more years to another prez-cycle... I'm personally hoping that someone challenges Trump for the seat on the Republican side. The Democrat's have no serious contenders so removal of Trump will have to be an internal thing unless someone from the left comes up to challenge.


Regards,
OIC!
<Disclaimer> I'm a registered Independent. Economically conservative, socially liberal, fiscally responsible. ;)

[el_draco]

I gathered that ;)



I lived in Nevada for some time. Day I arrived there, they were mortified that I was not armed and within 24 hours, I had a "truck" and half a dozen guns on board including a 9mm military grade hand gun. :eyepop:

They couldn't believe I didn't own a gun in Australia so I know where you are coming from. I just cant fathom how any country could tolerate this culture, the thousands of children killed each year for nothing.



I am hoping a disgruntled postal worker delivers the invite myself....



... Only to happy to comply :D



Michelle Obama, hands down... amazing woman.
Failing that....

...Alec Baldwin :rofl::rofl:

[LewisM]

If Trump get's the Nobel, it makes the award COMPLETELY irrelevant and worthless. Obama getting one tarnished the award enough, giving one to Trump will seal it's fate to ridicule and worthlessness.

[Octane]

John McAfee will be running in 2020. I’m not sure whether to be impressed or scared.

H

[LewisM]

I heard Kaspersky is too H :lol:

Hell, the REAL Donald Duck could run and win, seeing there is no democracy in the US anyway, since the REAL POTUS is Pompeo and VP Bolton...

[AndyG]

I always claim to not care for American Shannanigans, but I can't help myself this time...


https://www.democracynow.org/2000/6/7/ficus_for_congress


The Ficus is dependable. The Ficus listens. The Ficus does not judge.

[julianh72]

I'm not sure where you're getting your statistics from, but this is what came up when I did a quick search:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population per year / Guns per 100 Inhabitants
USA: 11.96 / 101.05
Finland: 3.25 / 27.5
Canada: 2.05 / 25.33
New Zealand: 1.07 / 30
Australia: 1.04 / 13.70
United Kingdom: 0.23 / 2.80
Japan: 0.06 / 0.6

If only we could see some sort of correlation in the statistics between gun ownership and gun-related deaths?
/sarcasm

[PCH]

Wow, - there's a surprise - NZ and Aussie ahead of the UK in the gun death game! Who'd of thought?

[Kal]

Not really suprising to me. Alot of rural people in Australia still have guns, and alot of people still get sad and put guns to their heads when they own them.

[OICURMT]

Hmm... guess I'll have to check the vailidty of my source...


https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/10/06/555861898/gun-violence-how-the-u-s-compares-to-other-countries


NPR is usually pretty good.

[xelasnave]

Up here (I am now at Tabulam having driven up uesterday) I know of probably eight guys who took their own life over 20 years. Mostly by a 22 but one used a shot gun. I can only recall one gassing himself.
Alex

[julianh72]

The NPR figures for the USA in particular are for homicides only. There's a note on the NPR chart for "How The U.S. Compares With The Lowest Rates Of Violent Gun Deaths Worldwide":
"All charts exclude deaths in armed conflict and from accidents or self-harm."

The Wikipedia data comes from a variety of sources, and the "Total" column includes justifiable homicides, suicides, and accidental fatalities. In particular, note that the number of suicides is typically several times higher than the homicides, and then there's also the "unintentional" and "undetermined" deaths, which are also (unsurprisingly) significantly higher in countries with high levels of gun ownership.

However, I think the NPR might have made a mistake on some of their graphs - I think they have plotted the USA figure of homicides only, but some of the others are apparently the total gun-related death figures. Comparing statistics across countries can be difficult, because not all countries will keep accurate statistics for all classifications.

The take-away message in the NPR report is in the last paragraph:

"One more way to consider this data: The IHME also estimates what it would expect a country's rate of gun violence deaths to be based solely on its socioeconomic status. By that measure, the U.S. should only be seeing .79 deaths per 100,000 people — almost five times less than its actual rate of 3.85 deaths per 100,000."

[PCH]

Pretty sure they have farms and fields in pommieland too Kal. Just saying. So why would it not surprise you that we're sadder here than there?

[Kal]

Got nothing to do with one country being sadder than the other, the only relevant statistic is posted 2 posts above my original comment. Australia still has 5x more guns per population than the UK. Most of those guns would be rural, and theres proven statistics out there that show that the suicide rate is higher in rural Australia because of the access to guns.

[dpastern]

Wholly agreed, best to avoid the generalisations. I have US friends who want guns banned (and for good reason). Not everyone supports the ideals of NRA etc.

A friend voted for Trump, and now regrets doing so. He was also very surprised that I knew so much about American politics etc.

As far as I understand, getting rid of guns is almost impossible - each state has co-signed the US constitution and EACH state must approve any amendments to constitution. I cannot see states like Texas etc doing so. Like, ever.

There is a direct correlation between gun ownership and death by guns in wealthy modern countries - with the US topping any developed nation for death by gun by a considerable margin on a per capita basis. Sadly, a large number of Americans refuse to acknowledge this, and, I suspect, will never give up their guns, even if it was legislated. The right to bear arms is the only slight on the US constitution imho - it is otherwise an exceptionally well written legal document, with a great deal of foresight. It makes the Australian constitution look rubbish imho.

[AndyG]

So much anti-gun angst here.

Only a few months back I took custody of a rather nice Lithgow .303, complete with bayonet, and 5 other POS fudd shotties from a friend's deceased father. Total outlay, $36 each (for PTA papers). It would have been a crying shame to see them crushed/melted down. My friend was happy to see them survive the furnace, as he'd been using them on the family cane farm since he was a boy.

I wonder what proportion of IIS enjoy shooting, own gun(s), worked primary industry, or have served in some capacity? Even ADF tradies would have needed to qualify on a .303, SLR, or F88 depending on their era.
It's just another hobby to most, a tool of the trade for some, and a vector for antisocial behaviour for very, very, very few. Sadly, bad news travels fastest/widest, and nobody cares for the peaceful or the harmless.


Having spent some time on gun forums and clubs, I'll list the differences in the backgrounds between them, and IIS inhabitants:
...
(None).


They are people just like you, with the same humour, encouragement of the newcomers, and love of their chosen thing. They argue over which method/tool is best, and lament the actions of outsiders' activities which encroach on their ability to partake. Consider "light polluters" - they are remorseless, as they feel they've done no harm.

I'd encourage anyone uncomfortable to find a local range and say hello. You could have fun. The biggest downside, as with any hobby, is that you may get poor :P That's the only warning I need offer :)

[dpastern]

Andy, with all due respect, there just is no need for the 99.99999999% of the population to either own a gun, or have access to a gun.

Yes, I can understand those who want to pursue gun shooting as a sport. I'm cool with that as long as they pass a medical psychological test every 2 years.

Yes, I'm cool with rural primary employees owning/having access to a gun. Same thing - as long as they are tested for mental illness issues every 2 years.

I'm sure those poor children, mother and grandmother that were murdered very recently in WA would agree with me if they were able to.

I'm not surprised that Australia and NZ having a higher death rate per 100k than the UK - the UK has been stricter on gun control since the early 20th century, with many changes to firearms over the course of the rest of the 20th century. Australia and NZ have been much more lax - crikey, up until the Port Arthur massacre, you could walk into kmart and buy bullets (I know, i used to watch my dad go in and buy bullets from time to time for hunting out the back of Bourke).

We actually got a very nasty surprise in November last year - my mum passed away in June, and in November, myself, sister and brother-in-law were cleaning out the garage and found dad's old semi-automatic rifle. There's no way we wanted that in the house, we thought dad had handed it into the police when the armistice was on. I called the cops and it took them near 2 days to get off their rear ends and come on out and pick it up. I wanted nothing to do with the damn horrid thing. 2 months later we found a bunch of boxes of bullets and I went and handed them into the local police station. Couldn't wait to get rid of the silly things. I'm pretty damn sure there's prolly a bunch of guns around the country that are hidden in similar circumstances - because prior to the armistice, there was ZERO tracking of who owned a gun, what type of gun they owned, or mental health assessment etc.

edit: my dad passed in 2012. I have zero idea if mum know that the gun was still in the house, or even where it was. I'd lived here for 10 years and had no idea and was very shocked when my sister came upon it during the mass clean out (mum & dad were MAJOR bloody hoarders).

[LewisM]

Count me in. I am a military firearms collector, and shoot regularly (range). I have NEVER killed an animal in my life with any firearm or weapon (unless we classify cars as weapons now :shrug:) and nor do I ever intend to. I have no need to kill anything, and nor do I ever perceive to.

I used to have 127 firearms at one point of bachelorhood (and this was WELL AND TRULY after Port Arthur) - a Collector with the Disease - but my wife cured me of this ailment early on...we lived off the sales proceeds for nigh on 5 years (some of the Experimental Lithgow SMLE's I had alone fetched $6000 each...). These days, not so many, but enjoy it thoroughly.

[Exfso]

and now to cap it off, they are getting kids in kindergarten singing nursery rhymes about how to stay safe when there is a school shooting. What a seriously sad state of affairs having to resort to this.
:screwy::screwy:

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/world/2018/06/08/kindergarten-nursery-rhyme-school-shootings/

[LewisM]

Yup, the United Stupid Americans.

[clive milne]

Suicide rate is proportional to firearm access only if you cherry pick the data points.

Here's a couple that disprove that there is a causative link.

Japan gun ownership 0.6 per 100 people.
Japan suicide rate: 19.7 per 100,000 people.

USA gun ownership: 101 per 100 people.
USA suicide rate: 14.3 per 100,000 people.

Ergo... Japan with 160x less guns per capita, has almost 150% higher suicide rate. (compared to the US)

Source:
Here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

and here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

[clive milne]

Only when you cherry pick the data points...

Here's two that disprove the assertion that there is a causative link:

Switzerland has a gun ownership rate of 24.5%... but that doesn't tell the whole story. That figure fails to acknowledge the 'government owned' assault rifle to be found in pretty much every home in the country. Ergo: anyone who wants access to a high powered automatic(?) weapon, has access to one.
Homicide rate in Switzerland: 0.21 per 100,000 people.

USA... effectively the same access to firearms (as Switzerland)
Homicide rate in USA: 4.62 per 100,000 people.

So we have a 2300% higher homicide rate in the US with effectively the same access to firearms. (as Switzerland).

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

[AussieTrooper]

This.

The US has states larger than Australia. Limit the stories just to what comes out of Florida or California etc., and you're on a similar level.

[AussieTrooper]

Well put.
Gun ownership is higher now than it was in 1990, yet the gun crime rate is far lower, and almost exclusively with firearms that have never been legal.

The overwhelming majority of gun deaths in the US are from gang crime, not from some 15yr old shooting up their school. They definitely need some form of gun law reform, but the media seems absolutely focussed on what is a small part of the problem.

[astroron]

Obviously you were very poor at geography at school ,and it seems it has not improve since you left school

Alaska
The Largest States in the U.S. by Area
Rank State Area (in square miles)
1 Alaska 663,267.26
2 Texas 268,580.82
3 California 163,695.57
4 Montana 147,042.40

7.692 million km²
If you meant in population,then say so.

[AndyG]

Classic matra of the "grabbers". Not original, please try harder.



"Think of the chillunz" - Matra #2. I almost didn't notice it. Like all parents, I do think of people. Please, read on.



Higher death rate for guns only you mean? Their murder rate is much higher... Hell, London recently celebrated taking that accolade from New York. Except scumbags switched to knives to achieve it. Trouble is, knives can be hidden in plain sight. What now?



Good, now we're getting somewhere. Anything can be a murder weapon. You could kill me with a 30mm ABC skygazing record refractor, - if you shove it far enough up my nose... So what we are seeing here is the difference between the tool, and the intention. The intention comes from the user (not the tool). Hence, your attention to mental health is welcomed by all (not just the gun community and their opponents). In fact, that's the key to peace in civilised society, which is often considered all too hard to achieve. So, they just ban stuff, because, you know, we can't be trusted.




Sounds scary. You wore a hazmat suit before picking it up? Nah seriously, when my old man goes, I'll be wading through 11 tonnes of train parts, wrought iron, and 5% of a P-38 Lightning. All up, I reckon you've done better than I :P

[AndyG]

That's it. If scumbags want a means to perform in their trade (to impose, intimidate, or kill), they will get it. If a gun can't be bought over the counter, it will be bought under the counter. If not bought, it gets stolen. If it can't be stolen, it will home manufactured. If they can't make a gun, they use a knife, or imaginatively (though sadly), hire a lorry (even cheaper when you don't take out insurance...)

[LewisM]

More murders in human history have been perpetrated by fists, sticks and rocks than firearms and will continue that way until we wipe ourselves out.

It's not the weapon, it's the person behind the weapon.

[AndyG]

That's it. An SG-550 in every bedroom of any serving member of the Swiss Army/Reserves. A people who seem to know how to behave amongst each other - civilised one could say.



Been to Japan 11 or so times. Everything has rubber edges and fences on high spaces. They compete with South Korea for the suicide high score. They compete with the whole world for productive output, and collectively it drives them crazy. Again, mental health.



Suicide method differs most greatly by gender. There is a big difference between suicide attempt, and suicide completion. Both male, and female suicide attempts are roughly equal in number. However males chose methods which are faster acting, and more affective in achieving death (Gun, burning, hanging). This compares to females, who typically choose drug overdose, poison, bleeding out, ect, which takes time (and thus opens opportunity for rescue, remorse, etc).

The end result is that males appear to have a "higher" suicide rate. Male, rural workers have the amongst the highest suicide completion rate, due to social isolation (less supervision), and greater access to fast acting means (farm machinery, fuels, and as you indicated, guns). Another high ranker in suicide completion are indigenous males outside of major cities. Interestingly, they have exceptionally low rates of firearm licences.

Source: Words from an ex-director of Beyond Blue, who delivers insightful lectures where I work. He hates guns as much as anyone here, but concedes removing them alone will solve little.

[AndyG]

Very impressive. I had 1/10th that before marriage (yes 12.7 - A heavy barrel and reciever for a 30/338, but no stock or trigger).

My stainless Kimber 1911 and 2x .44 Vaqueros were sold to pay for the wedding. It was a tough decision :P

Now my collection is *mostly* fudd guns, rescued from the police crusher from 2 deceased estates :(

[xelasnave]

Let folk keep all the guns they want and admire them collect them clean them and hang them on their wall if their facination is with guns... but take away all the ammunition☺ ..lets see criminals make ammunition☺

We live in a democracy so lets put it to a vote.

Should guns be banned...yes ? no?

The folk who want them banned presumably will out weigh those who dont so ban them...but count the votes first.

And so the cry will go out "I want my gun" well sorry the community does not want guns and the logic for possesion is irrelevant.

And folk if they want to kill with a gun will find it that much harder...some of the folk I know who suicided would have been so drunk only a gun could have been used cause they wouldnt be able to tie a knot in a rope or stand on a chair to hang themselves and probably would wake in the morning and sober and see things differently.

Buy an illegal gun after they are banned.???..sure if you could afford the high black market prices and lets face it supply and demand and penalty risk would make them harder to buy and more expensive and then if caught with one make it very difficult for such a charge to be avoided.

Sure criminals etc can use other means well ban guns and let them find other ways ... but suicide gun would at least go down and certainly I know five people who when sober would have carried on.

Target practice gone?

I think we could manage somehow.Take up darts.

Hunting ..get over it and find a butcher who sells meat maybe.

However the community at large does not want them so ban them it is that simple.
Alex

[Russj]

Perhaps this bloke has the answer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZrFVtmRXrw

[julianh72]

Oh, please! Talk about cherry-picking data!

London happened to have two consecutive bad months for murder statistics, and the lunatic fringe start crowing that New York is safer than London.

Please take a look at the statistics and tell me if you still believe it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43628494

[LewisM]

I think the horse has been flogged and is now ready for the glue factory.

[xelasnave]

There is life in him yet:)

What I really think is funny as in strange is that a blow pipe is illegal and indeed a cross bow but rifles and shot guns are ok.

I do like guns I admit.
I shot skeet and trap which was satisfying.
One gains a sence of power knowing that you can shoot stuff traveling so fast ... I had some very expensive shot guns and rifles and back then I thought gun ownership was a good thing...now I dont.

And whats going on in Sydney there has not been a drive by shooting for a while now.

Hopefully anyone caught doing a drive by gets the terrorist treatment and given really lengthy good behaviour bonds..that will fix them.
Alex

[dpastern]

Yes, you can argue that point. i will counter argue - using your logic, any country that wants nukes can have them. I mean, lots of countries having nukes doesn't mean it's dangerous...



Umm no. It doesn't. Geography fail 101. Please repeat that class ;)



lol Ron, agreed!



I'd like to see the death rates in the US related to knife usage. Pretty sure it'll be damn high too ;-)

There is simply no need to have a gun. Any logic that says it's needed is flawed imho.

[dpastern]

I was thinking the same thing myself.

[Exfso]

I think this thread has gone right off the rails, as usual. Reckon it is time for it to be closed before it turns into a complete sh1t fight..:screwy:

[LewisM]

Yup, the horse bypassed the glue factory and went straight to the compost bin...

[clive milne]

Dave, I didn't form an argument in the classical sense, I simply pointed out that the argument on the table, as it were, was demonstrably false. You drew your own conclusions from that.

As for the nuclear canard, I find it somewhat ironic that the demographic of people most ridden with angst about civilian gun ownership is the very same demographic that has ownership and access to nuclear weapons.

I am reminded that I really, really must get off my backside and start a thread, re: character background check of Trump and Clinton... this will make your blood run cold.

best
~c

[clive milne]

Come on Dave, it is patently obvious that Ben was referring to population size.

It serves no purpose to be churlish and obtuse if your intent is to have a reasonable exchange of ideas?

[Kal]

Two different cultures, two differnt worlds.


Compare the rate of Australians that own guns to Australians that don't own guns instead.

[Kal]

I'll concede, there are more guns in Australia now than there were in 1990, but the population has grown, and the guns tend to be owned by fewer people who collect more firearms. Comparing 1990 to now, 75% less households have a gun ownership.


Also, the overwhelming majority of gun deaths in the USA is from suicide, around 2/3 of all the firearm deaths.

[dpastern]

Clive, I think you're painting me as a villain with the quoted comment, when I don't think I was in any way mean or nasty.

I interpreted Ben's comment as to physical land mass size (as did another user on here), not population. I re-read Ben's comment and still came to the same conclusion, so either I'm incapable of comprehending things correctly (quite possible lol), or, Ben's original comment wasn't clear and concise enough to allow a correct interpretation.

[clive milne]

So violence is cultural... and not proportional to gun access.


I'm glad we agree on that point.

[dpastern]

Suicide is on the rise in nearly every major country (some countries worse than others, like Japan and South Korea). Gun or no gun. It's a serious issue that needs to be addressed, and one that I personally consider as being far more important than gun control debate. But, nevertheless, gun control is an issue imho. A serious issue.

[clive milne]

Come on Dave,
The lowest intellect in primary school knows that Australia has a larger land mass compared to any state in the US.... It is unfair to suggest Ben is beneath that level of awareness.
Can we move on and consider Ben's argument (in the spirit of fairness) in terms of per capita?

[RB]

OP request for closer of thread.

RB