Mount Upgrade

[lazjen]

I have been considering for sometime about upgrading my mount. I've got a G11 at the moment.

What's stopping me is that the next tier of mounts is quite a lot of cash. Now I can probably afford/save up to get one without causing a financial apocalypse in the household, but I'm having trouble justifying to myself just what the extra benefits of these mounts are compared to the G11.

If you've had a G11 and upgraded, what did you upgrade to and why?

I use my mount mixed mode: in the observatory and taken out to dark sites. Ideally, the upgrade mount would do this and perhaps better (easier to assemble/disassemble/transport).

Obviously I would expect the mount to be more accurate and need less guiding corrections than the G11 - it would be the main reason for the change.

I'd like to move to a more automated setup over time. Subjectively, I feel the G11 just scrapes in on being able to do this and I suspect that there might be features out there on other mounts that would help (e.g. cable management).

As I've moved to a Linux based setup (INDI), I'm considering mounts from: 10 Micron, AstroPhysics and Bisque Paramount. I'd also be interested in hearing from anyone with these mounts who have used a Linux setup.

For now, I'm unlikely to change my scopes (RC10 and 107mm refractor) so I doubt any of them would be an issue for the weight I handle right now (both scopes are mounted right now). I have delusions, er, dreams of one day getting a bigger RC for a dark site observatory, but the weight is becoming an issue for me to handle as I get older, so this may become a non-issue.

So thoughts? Anything else I should consider?

[Amaranthus]

Chris, this might be a radical suggestion, but have you thought about going down rather than up. Say a Skywatcher AZ-EQ6. In AZ mode it's great for visual, in EQ it's a solid AP platform with a belt driven and controllable by the wonderful thing that is EQMOD. It would handle both the RC10 and mid-sized frac with ease.

What's the catch? Visually, none at all. Synscan is beaut for portable pointing and slewing, and this mount works well for SkySafari etc. with a wireless dongle. For AP, obviously there is the PA and worm smoothness to consider. So it comes down to your pixel scale and camera's read noise. If you're using one of the new CMOS imagers, such as the ASI1600, then the read noise is insanely low at medium-to-high gain. So you can get away with much shorter exposures for the same SNR. This is a bit of a game-changer, IMHO, because it means we are inching towards the inevitable obviation of expensive high-end mounts that require super-long-exposure guiding/tracking precision. Not there yet, sure, especially for narrow-bandpass filters, but inching there. It's still a personal judgement call, but there are many pros these days to offset the cons of a solid mid-range mount, when coupled with the right scope and camera.

[Logieberra]

Went from G11 G2 to MX, and arrived at AP1600GTO.

Love the SB mounts; though very techy and CPU dependant.

Enjoying the simplicity and quality of the AP.

[lazjen]

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it would be worth the change - I'm effectively 100% AP, no visual. I am using an ASI1600 but I think it might not be the best match to the RC10 - it's probably borderline with the 0.67FR I'm using. But I'm not too worried about the camera right now as if I need to get something different in the future, it's either going to be because I got a bigger RC and/or the tech has improved further.

I think your point about the shorter exposures is part of what's been kicking around in my mind for a while now. I might be better off sticking with the G11 for now and sorting out some other issues instead. For example, changing the focuser on my refractor to work under Linux and maybe add a rotator (or sell the whole unit and buy something else completely).

More food for thought.

[lazjen]

Ok, good to know. How's the AP simpler than the G11?

[Atmos]

I went from a quite comparable mount (EQ6) to an ASA DDM60 and haven’t ever looked back. It use it exclusively for astrophotography and I’d argue that the ASA mounts are the best that money can buy for what they do best.

In saying that however, the ASA mounts are not for you. I don’t think they play as well with INDI and even if they do, they’re not the most user friendly for visual. If I want to go visual I use my EQ6.

If you’re wanting it for visual I’d limit myself to AstroPhysics or 10 Micron as both of them can easily be used for field work (no laptop).

[lazjen]

I can't see the ASA mounts at all in the INDI list, so looks like you're right there. The 10 microns seem to be equipped with encoders (I couldn't see configurations without? maybe I didn't look hard enough) and I'm not sure how useful they are for me, since I plate solve everywhere.

And to make it clear - I can't remember the last time I did any visual stuff. I want this for AP only. I have something suitable for any rare visual stuff I'm likely to do.

[Wavytone]

There’s also a superb mount made in South Korea which has harmonic drives... cost is about $10k. This would be a beautiful thing if you are prepared to hook up a computer to it with the right software.

[ericwbenson]

Hi,
I concur with your observations of the G11 when used with anything bigger than a refractor.
I started AP with a G11 (60 lbs capacity) and spent a few years tuning, and tuning, and tuning. It was OK and I could get useful data from it, but not all the time, it sometimes would 'flare up' and give funny star shapes. Now mind you I was using a C11 at f/10 most of the time, so I was pushing the limit, but the gear box noise problem (76sec quasi-periodic spike) and somewhat random nature of the PE made it frustrating to use in an observatory setting. I believe the simplicity of the worm mounting scheme is the root cause. The components, brass, steel, aluminium and plastic (gearbox) all have different coefficients of thermal expansion and just don't sit where you last left everything after tuning/adjusting, also the rigidity of the mounting is suspect IMO when doing portable.

So I upgraded to a PME (140 lbs capacity), HUGE difference. It handled the C11 with spectroscope + a C14 with long imaging train side-by-side. I could start a session and pretty much guarantee guiding would work, no fussing around. The worm in this case is spring loaded, temperature changes did not seem to have much effect, the PE was reproducible, no fast spikes from gear boxes etc.

Then I changed the scope to a CDK20, used it for a couple years and succumbed, it was a bit too much scope for the PME, so I upgraded to a Planewave A200HR (with encoders), again HUGE difference (240 lbs capacity). What is nice about the encoders is that mechanical PE does not matter anymore. The encoders do PE/gear noise/belt slack/whatever correction in real time on the output shaft.
The pointing accuracy of the encoder mount is extremely good but really unnecessary these days with modern plate solving. Especially since when I rotate the camera (motorised IRF90) there is an offset that basically swamps the pointing accuracy, but again don't care with plate solving and ACP.

I understand the cost bump is pretty big so take your time and really evaluate what you want to do, the G11 can still do a lot.

EB

[lazjen]

What's the brand name? Although I'm unlikely to go with anything "unknown", I'm still curious about it.

I have to admit, that even though I don't mind tinkering, I think I am at the stage that I want to reduce some variables. I feel as though right now I have a poor conversion rate from time messing with the mount/setup to actually producing images. I'd like to change that now.

[DJT]

Not a G11 user but I have 2 pre-loved AP Mounts, a 900 and a Mach1.

They are simple because they work without tinkering or constantly tuning. Great handset, plays nicely with EQMOD, and when imaging they disappear into the background giving great performance and they just work.

Worth every penny.

[lazjen]

Yes, it feels like a system that when everything is in "alignment" works really well, but if somethings "changes", it's a fight to get things back on track again.



That's some upgrades! And your comments are what I suspect is one of the major advantages of a better mount - you have consistency in your setup.

Re: encoders and PE - I wasn't aware of that aspect, thanks.



Yes, this is important and the thread has made me think about my setup as it stands right now. I might look at adjusting a few other details first to see if that removes enough "frustration" for now. :)

[lazjen]

I guess it's an indication of how good these mounts are - I can't recall the last time I've seen one advertised here, so those that have 'em want to keep 'em. :)

Do you use them for portable work - going to dark sites, etc? What scope(s) do you put on them?

[AstroApprentice]

FYI, recent harmonic drive review here:
https://atik.kr/2017/07/crux-170hd-review/
Plus k-Astec have been retrofitting some mounts with harmonic drives recently
Some mixed comments about them on CN

[DJT]

The 900 is permanently mounted but I used it at my dark site once or twice. The Mach1 is the one I use most for portable. There is a very good daylight polar alignment routine in the manual so setup is pretty straight forward and you get close on pa then I use pempro to finish. No dramas

Cheers

[Atmos]

10 Micron mounts have absolute encoders that are almost as accurate as the ASA ones. With 10 Micron you can create a pointing model using the handset and it should be easily controllable directly through INDI.

As others have mentioned, the main difference between a EQ6/G11 or anything of that ilk is that the mount fades into the background. My DDM60 does take a bit longer to set up than my EQ6 but I can still beat astronomical darkness anyway and I’m rarely in a rush. The difference is that When I was using the EQ6, some nights I’d have to fight to get decent results, other nights the gremlins would stick around and 120s exposures would have issues. With the DDM60 I just tell it to go somewhere, it’ll be accurate to within 2 pixels without plate solving and it will keep it centred all night without autoguiding.

[atalas]

Chris,honestly you can't go wrong with any of the high end mounts mentioned here!of cause you could all ways end up with a lemon and that's why good warranty policy is important.

Out of all the high end mounts mentioned Software Buisque mounts are the best value.

You should also keep an eye out on reviews for the new Ioptron CEM 120EC if you don't want to spend a great deal of money.

[lazjen]

Thanks for the replies David and Colin - good info and more points to the side of upgrading.



Wow, that's significantly less cost than the other mounts and it looks like the Ioptrons have INDI support. I'll definitely keep looking for reviews (and they've just announced a CEM 120EC2 - EC on both axis) and try to work out what is missing/different to make them so much cheaper. The feature set I've read so far indicates it should have what I want.

[codemonkey]

Of those being discussed, I can only comment on the AP mounts and then only the Mach 1.

The Linux / INDI factor may limit the performance / features you can get out of an AP mount. Specifically, AstroPhysics Command Center (APCC) and Astrophysics Model Maker (APPM) are Windows only. These two bits of software offer features such as horizon limits and pointing/tracking correction. Note that APCC is an additional cost with an AP mount and comes in two versions, the pro version has APPM.

You can use an AP mount without APCC/APPM, but IMO if you're going to spend that kind of money, it makes sense to get the most out of them, and to do that you may want the features offered by the aforementioned software.

Just something to consider...

[lazjen]

I'll have to check the software features, but I expect it to mostly be a non-issue by using ekos, etc for any of these mounts. There's quite a lot of features available for full remote/"robotic" imaging under Linux already. I am most comfortable with Linux over Windows, so I'm going to go that path first.

[lazjen]

Might as well drag this thread out of hiding... :)

I finally got around to ordering a new mount since I've done the house shift and the dome is almost functional again.

I chose the iOptron CEM120EC2 - https://www.ioptron.com/product-p/7302.htm It should be here in 2 or so weeks.

I spent a long time researching mounts, but in the end, even though this is relatively "new", it's been getting good reports overall, and significantly it's a lot cheaper than any of the alternatives that offer similar features. It works for both ASCOM and INDI, so I can use either as I require.

I had considered picking up a 2nd hand AP, but they are rarer than hen's teeth. In fact, during this last year when I've been preparing for this, I haven't seen any up for grabs here, although I admit there were times I could have missed it.

I've got a pier to sort out as well, but I have someone local who can build that for me. We're in the process of sorting that out.

The dome won't be 100% ready when the mount gets here, but I should be able to work around the unfinished bits to get the mount and gear running a few tests soon after the pier is installed.

Is it a coincidence that we got our heaviest rainfall here in sometime on the day I did the order? ;)

[Peter Ward]

AP make a super product, but the software integration of the PMEII or PMX+
is rather unique and very mature (and while you might want to be contrarian with Linux,
I'd suggest you simply go with the Bisque Windows suite...plus it's free with the mount).

No other mount offers the same level of machining precision (which, to be blunt, excludes everything from China IMHO)
plus T-Point/Pro track integration, plus a seamless interface to track everything from low-earth orbit to the Oort cloud with a single mouse click.
(e.g.Slew Comet McNaught, Right click: set tracking rate Comet McNaught. Done)

I also put my money where my mouth is on this. I still own a G-11 (the best field/luggable bang-for-buck mount out there)
and looked long and hard at AP, 10Micron etc. but still the PMEII offered that little bit more.

Not cheap...but unless I win Lotto, buy several acres in the Southern Highlands and put in a 24" Alluna, I'll still be using the PMEII

[lazjen]

And with a starting price of at least $15K USD (without encoders) for PMEII. Yeah, that compares well. I see the PMX+ is $9K USD (no encoders).

I can't talk to any machining precision level because that's not my skillset - and besides I just don't have access to all the gear to compare it anyway.

I remember history. I remember when people used to complain about Japanese electronics quality, and how things changed over time. I have lots of problems with China and the way it does some things, but you just can't make sweeping statements like yours these days. Apple gets their products made there, and so do many other companies. It's not possible to just dismiss it any more. Times change.

Note: I'm not saying with the above that the iOptron gear is going to be better machined than SB or AP. Absolutely no idea. But, if the mount is made such that it works as advertised, what does it really matter how it looks in the dark of the observatory?

As for Linux, I don't fear and dismiss it like many seem to do. There's a lot of capability there that many are unaware of - I can make an automated unattended system with it (like others have done) without the need to pay exorbitant amounts for software.

Not that I'm against paying for software though, since I have bought some for Windows. And I will also make my system work automated and unattended under Windows as well - although that will cost more to do. I am investigating alternatives to "traditional" choices here as well.

I am disappointed that this was the first response to my post. I guess I should have expected it since I'm not falling into line and buying something "traditional".

[Logieberra]

You have many replies (above) including Peter’s. You asked for thoughts, and anything else to consider. Members took the time to provide that. Why so sensitive about your final decision/purchase? :question: We look forward to your reports/results, and outcomes of dealings with iOptron service.

[lazjen]

Because I obviously did take those posts into consideration BEFORE I did my purchase (and I am grateful for those posts because it did have a big impact on what I eventually chose). My post then announced that I had DONE the purchase, so obviously it's too late to change to anything else. Why bother bringing up other mounts in this thread at that point, especially when the price point and capabilities don't even match what I am getting?

On a more positive note, I do intend to report how I go. No doubt I will face issues when I go through this process with all the elements I want to achieve.

[Logieberra]

You’re not alone. You have a friend, here: https://youtu.be/86X5w275Id4
Watched this vid a few weeks back. Clutch system looks cryptic, but like all gear - just need to get used to the new...

[codemonkey]

Congrats Chris, it's always exciting to get a new mount. I'm sure yours will serve you well. The CEM120EC2 looked to be getting a lot of attention in the US, but I have to say I haven't really followed it. Certainly good bang for buck if the specs are anything to go by.

[lazjen]

I've been following the discussions on CloudyNights and I also joined the Google Groups for the mount to track issues. Like almost all new systems there's issues to be sorted out, but from what I can see that's happening.

The G11 was my first mount and I feel if I can work through using it, I can probably handle anything else. :) After I get it setup in the dome I'm not sure how much I'll have to touch the clutch system anyway. Time will tell.



Indeed. If it does live up to the specs (and so far it seems to be doing so), then it's going to be a disruptor in the market. It's got to get past the "new kid on the block" stigma first and of course the Made in China comments.

[cwjohn]

Hi Chris

Congrats on your purchase. I am sure with your expertise you will get it running in no time.

I will be interested in dropping by and seeing this mount. Unfortunately, its load carrying capacity is insufficient for my purposes but should work well in your case provided the specs hold up.

I am still strongly of the view that AP offer the best mounts at a 100Kg+ carrying capacity despite the investment involved.

[lazjen]

Don't worry, there will be "viewing hours" once I'm up and running. :)

I've seen reports that the weight specs are on target. Some people are loading it up to near max and having no difficulty.

I think if it gets to the point where I can afford the scope(s) that weigh more than 52kg (the payload limit not including counterweights)... I can probably seriously consider the expense of the mount necessary to carry it. :)

[Spartacus]

Hi Chris, just noticed this thread, must have missed it before in Feb 2018. Good choice on the CEM120. It should do everything you want but is a bit heavy compared to equivalent AP mounts. Great value.
On a different note (and the main reason for posting) if you are still looking for an Astrophysics mount I can at least confirm that (AP1100) it works well with KStars/Indi/EKOS. Using the Indi Astrophysics experimental driver I had no problems with connecting and using the mount with Indi/EKOS. The only quirky thing was that it insisted on parking with the DEC at 90 degrees to the usual pole pointing park (Park 3). I just had to accept it and set up at this position which is easy as there are alignment marks for this position.
So if you do get a Mach 1 or AP 900 to complement your CEM120 etc your Linux set up will work well.
I have no experience with the CEM120 and linux (KStars) but driver support is there and lots of help on line in the INDI support forums.
Cheers
Mike

[lazjen]

Thanks Mike.

I forgot to mention that I changed my mind a bit from the original post. The CEM120 is staying in the observatory and won't go mobile at all - it's going to be far too heavy for that for me. I think for now if I go mobile I'll be doing some wide-field stuff only and not lugging around much gear. At the most I'll take my G11 out.

I had read of people using AP under INDI hence it was on my original list. Assuming all goes well with this mount, the next likely upgrades will be around either scopes or cameras. So, probably no AP anywhere in my future - for a very long time if at all.

I've obviously yet to check this, but my understanding is that iOptron mounts have a similar command set, so the INDI driver should be fine given there's a fair amount of use for the other mounts out there.

[Slawomir]

Congratulations Chris - it looks like a great mount and I look forward to seeing your new even sharper astro images taken with this mount :thumbsup:

[gregbradley]

Congrats on your new purchase. I look forward to your review.

Greg.

[lazjen]

Thanks Suavi and Greg.

I will review it, but I can only compare the usage to a G11 since I haven't used other mounts.

Although the real success will be in the hopefully sharper images. :)

[gregbradley]

The real test of any mount is can you get round stars at 10minute exposures at a decent focal length. If you can its a winner.

Other things help but are not essential. That's the guts of it.

Also with a good mount round stars are not guaranteed. A good PEC and accurate polar alignment are pretty important. I use Sky X Tpoint for getting perfect polar alignment. Its an amazing tool and you see the results immediately in the very low autoguiding errors.

Greg.

[lazjen]

If I have all the necessary base plate bits here right now, I'm going to start with the refractor at 700mm (F6.54) - I think I'll need to change it from the narrow V to the wider D as it looks like the CEM120 accepts the wider plate only. I'll look into this soon. EDIT: Well that was easy - got a base plate adapter that I can use so I can mount the refractor in the same way as if it was on top the RC10.

At some point though I will be using the RC10 at either 2000mm (F8) or with the reducer at 1340mm (F5.36) to go further. I'd like to jump to this straight away but I suspect I may need to recollimate it first. Don't want to deal with that right now if I can avoid it.

There's no PEC on the encoder versions of the CEM120 (i.e. the CEM120EC and CEM120EC2), therefore I won't need to worry about that. (Manual, pg 31: http://www.ioptron.com/v/Manuals/7300_CEM120_Instruction.pdf)

The manual lists some supplied alignment options (pg 26). I might try some out for the sake of reviewing to see how they go. Won't be a completely fair or proper test though as I will have this installed in the dome permanently so I expect that each test is likely to refine the last result. Eventually though I will try/review those results with tools I've got and then refine further if required.

[Slawomir]

Thank you Chris for sharing a link to the manual. Both RA and DEC worm wheels seem to have larger diameters than in AP 1100 GTO, plus you have encoders so it should be a solid performer. I will certainly follow your experiences with this mount with a great interest :thumbsup:

[lazjen]

Suavi, the race is on to get everything ready for some (hopefully) clear nights in the next few months and see how it all goes!

[Peter Ward]

Ah...apologies as I missed the fact you had already gone with the Ioptron.

That said, if the specs are accurate, then it looks like it will serve you well. I wait with interest to hear your impressions on how accurately it positions and tracks. :thumbsup:

[lazjen]

Fair enough.

I'll start a new thread when it arrives to detail things there. Something with a better title too. :)