Adani coal mine (Queensland)

[skysurfer]

In the Bisbane Times (https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/federal/catholic-anglican-bishops-unite-in-opposition-to-adani-megamine-20171030-gzaqxf.html) there is an article about the Roman Catholic and Anglican clergy against Adani.

I am not an Australian, but a European, but I am very worried about the same world we share.
The Adani mine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmichael_coal_mine) project is IMHO one of the worst projects wasting Queensland, Australia and the rest of the world. A country with so much sunshine in a world with global warming and a 60% bleached Great Barrier Reef by too warm sea water. And yet, in the middle of this bleached GBR, the Adani corporation (and the QLD government ?) wants to contruct a large coal mine and terminal for export to India.
Even for us, amateur astronomers, the port and mine area will generate even more light pollution.

Even when is does provide 10000 jobs, do not do this. In the renewable energy business, the same amount of jobs can be created. Or for a hyperloop or high speed rail link between Sydney-Brisbane-Cairns (as alternative to the cargo rail link between the mine and the harbor).
And India is also gradually converting to renewable, and then Adani loses an important market and then the GBR and the nature reserves of QLD are more destroyed.

What are your opinions ?

[multiweb]

Disaster in the making. Coincides with us jumping from 400 to a bit over 403ppm with CO2 concentration in the latest report issued for 2016 alone. Nothing's changing. If anything, faster and in the wrong direction. Brace for impact.

[The Mekon]

I'm all for the mine. Enable millions of Indians to access reliable power.
Skysurfer, you seem to have so many facts wrong - the coal is for overseas customers, so what good will it do to substitute the coal mine for renewable energy in Australia?
Are you aware there are already two large offshore coal export terminals already operating in the reef, and others within major ports, without any damage to the reef.
No, it is Ok for you in your centrally heated European home to have a first world lifestyle at the expense of the environment - an expense paid for by both previous and current high energy consumption by generations of Europeans - but not Indians in the 21st century.

[doppler]

I think that there is a bit of fiction regarding the amount of jobs that will be created . There will be a lot of short term jobs during the construction/ development phase but the Adani mine will be well automated so not a lot of long term employment (1250 operational jobs for the mine's 30-year lifespan), so short of royalties I don't think that there is really much of a benefit to Australia long term. There seems to be no mention of the income that royalties will bring maybe the Govt is giving Adani a subsidy on this aspect as well?

Its win win regardless for Adani, the Townsville and Rockhampton councils are paying Adani millions ensure local workers get jobs and are building an airport for Adani as well, the ratepayers will be up the creek if it all falls apart.
https://www.dailymercury.com.au/news/mackay-wins-adani-jobs-for-free/3231476/
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/20/adani-coalmine-queensland-councils-to-pay-at-least-31m-for-airstrip

[casstony]

4 Corners exposed Adani's criminal activities and Stephen Long asked the Queensland Premier for comment; she ignored the question.
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/digging-into-adani/9008500

Edit: I took The Mekon off my ignore list to see if I'd repeated something he said. Never again. Read "Merchants of Doubt" John or watch the film.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7799004-merchants-of-doubt

[AussieTrooper]

This garbage of Australian taxpayers subsidising foreign billionaires has got to stop.

[AussieTrooper]

That sounds like something straight out of the fossil fuel industry playbook. It is wrong on several levels.

1: This is a decision for the Australian government. Their job is to represent Australians, not Indians.
2: The entire world should not lose out (via climate change) so that one country can benefit.
3: Renewables are fast heading towards becoming base load. This is due to the large number of battery bank projects that are will be commissioned within the next few years. This applies everywhere, not just Australia.
4: Gain from these mines (for India) is temporary, damage (for Australia) is permanent.

[Tropo-Bob]

Government needs to be very careful re $1billion contribution; it looks financially sus to me.

[doppler]

That $1billion railway loan is another interesting one Australia is paying for it but Adani will own it. The existing central Qld coal rail network was funded by the Govt but ownership was retained by the Govt and the mines pay to use it now.

[The_bluester]

The question has to be asked. "What is the best way to provide reliable power to new customers"? Building thousands of kilometers of transmission and distribution lines, terminal stations, zone substations and substations alongside the building of a gigantic coal mine and coal fired generators to "Deliver" all these people in India out of energy poverty, or the building of localised distribution networks and distributed generation from likely renewable sources (Backed up by energy storage, which is rapidly becoming feasible on the grid scale) I somehow doubt that Adani's motivations are quite so altruistic.

I am not going to use the term "Base load power" as that is a corruption of the term, willingly pushed by the current federal government as it makes a nice sound bite. Base load actually referred to the minimum load that was required/desired for stability's sake when coal fired generation was pretty much it and was intended to overcome a disadvantage inherent to big coal fired plants. They take ages to spin up or shut down so they want a minimum demand to keep assets hot and working, a "Base load" (Load being a measure of demand, not a measure of supply) and is what led to very cheap "Off peak" rates for electric hot water among other things, to shift consumption into the overnight lull and keep the load up and generators running. It is ironic that a major drawback of large coal fired generators is now painted as a virtue. "We really, really don't want to shut this thing down and fire it up again all the time and are prepared to sell you power overnight for a pittance to get you to use some then" has morphed into "We are reliable and always available"

[PCH]

So true Ben - you've obviously done your homework mate and what you say makes a lot of sense.

[julianh72]

Damage for the whole world is permanent!

I find it incredible that at precisely the same time that the Federal Government is shutting down subsidies for renewable energy, here we are looking at subsidising a coal mine to the tune of $1 billion, all based on totally incredible estimates of the number of jobs that will be created.

Fact check: Will Adani’s coal mine really boost employment by 10,000 jobs?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/business-spectator/fact-check-will-adanis-coal-mine-really-boost-employment-by-10000-jobs/news-story/903c1932738b1d1a1763c74e45f4d7c7

If Adani can't raise the full project finance through normal commercial channels, doesn't that in itself tell you all you need to know about the economic viability of the project?

[Camelopardalis]

The big political problem - given that we have an upcoming state election in QLD - is that both sides of the house support it, despite the overwhelming majority of SE QLDers being against it. Then compounded by a federal government that continues to talk about viable coal power. Beggars belief in a state - and country - with so much sunshine.

The state and federal govts should pour the $1b instead into new projects that can generate greater prosperity for regional QLDers, rather than flogging a dead horse.

It's like car manufacturing all over again...

[el_draco]

Laughable response, at best; pure ignorance at worst. It is easy to beat up past generations for developing systems based on their understanding of the world they lived in; a world where global warming was not an issue, where resources were apparently unlimited and where global population was not an issue.

Guess what? The story has changed somewhat since 200+ years ago. :shrug:

Anyone who sticks their head in the sand in the face of the scientific evidence, is utterly deluded. We have to get off the carbon diet, PERIOD. India also has enormous solar and wind assets. They also need to work on population control and I suspect all the coal in the world wont make them happy if the Ganges dries up. The ice pack on the Himalayas is retreating at a terrifying rate! :eyepop:

Australia, for gawd sake, is one of the renewable richest places on the planet. We ought to be exporting technology for free and leaving the black crap in the ground :screwy:

[xelasnave]

Buy real estate in Siberia.
alex

[Peter Ward]

If you live in QLD, contact your state member and get in their face. Nothing motivates the pollies more than the spectre of unemployment. Sadly most Australians are simply too apathetic, hence treasonous deals like Adani magically get up time and again....

[el_draco]

Not going to make the slightest difference Alex... Have a look at the "drunken forests of Siberia" :sadeyes:

[DarkKnight]

I occasionally ponder, usually after a glass or two of wine, just how much stuff we can dig up and burn before we put our fragile little speck of insignificance (in the overall scheme of things) enough out of balance that we get the wobbles, break orbit, and head off into outer space like a balloon blown up but not tied off.

[pmrid]

The good old days of writing to your local member are gone I'm sorry to say. Perhaps it's because of the sheer volume of stuff they get, but the realities are that incoming emails/letters from constituents and others is so great that pollies have staff who read this stuff and filter it. They send out a stock reply usually enclosing some link to some speech some pollie has made and boasting what great things their party has done etc etc. If your email/letter is about an energy issue, you'll get stock replies about that. If it's about health, education, law and order, etc etc, you'll get stock responses about that as well.

You WILL NOT get any meaningful response to the issue you have raised.

So while I applaud the sentiment, I regret that it is just micturating into the wind.

Peter

[skysurfer]

One question, is the $1bn subsidy from the Qld state or from The Turning Bull ?

Anyway, a viable commercial operation should not be subsidized at all.


That is what I say as well. But not only Australia, South Africa is also one of the worst offenders, like Australia it has lots of sunshine (Western Cape is as sunny as Perth), but their energy is heavily dependant on coal.
The eMahlaleni (Witbank) coal mine (400km east of Jo'burg) boasts about 'the best coal in the world'.

The same for Saudi Arabia, UAE, the sun is barely harnessed there.

But even here in Europe, in my country (Netherlands) a new government started last week and they want to postpone shutting down the five remaining coal power plants until 2030 "because we won't be dependant on neighboring countries". Another ten years of useless CO2 pollution, even when they store it in the ground (called 'carbon capture and storage' with a nice marketing slogan).
Totally nonsense, as the European grid is completely interweaved, just like the Australian interstate power grid.

The only what counts is MONEY !

[el_draco]

I doubt the thing will get off the ground, so to speak. Despite our moronic politicians, people have a habit of stopping these projects. Take a look at the Gunns pulp mill that was supposed to be built in Tassie. The public push back destroyed the company and wrecked the govt. The licenses to build that monstrosity were finally abandoned a couple of weeks back... Legacy? 100 hectares of damaged bush but we took down the project in the end. It beggers belief that Queenslanders continue to smash up their wilderness whilst claiming they live in paradise...

[doppler]

Townsville council receives a 50,000 signed petition to stop the council from funding proposed Adani airport with ratepayer money. Councils response was that they were probably not Townsville residents. This was not a national Anti Adani petition, it was done on a Townsville facebook page.

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/news/small-turn-up-to-deliver-petition-against-airstrip-funding-for-adani/news-story/fa955e9eaa678ae9f605a3e8069ac18b

[xelasnave]

I suppose the unfortunate aspect is if they do not get access to the coal we have the Indians will presumably buy it somewhere.

My observation simply points out the depth of the problem which really boils down to how will everyone come together world wide with a useful consensus.

alex

[LewisM]

Already done (11 years ago - quite a sizeable chunk actually!)

Next suggestion?

[AstralTraveller]

Try to hang on to it if it ever really matters. (Hint: waving a title deed may not be enough)

[Peter Ward]

Beg to differ. I had a meeting with our local federal member about a proposed airport in my backyard. Not only was the meeting productive, it resulted in my authoring several pages of a speech she tabled in Parliament...and remains in Hansard to this day. BTW the airport didn’t get up! :)

[xelasnave]

Subdivide

alex

[julianh72]

And herein lies a major problem - who do you vote for if the Adani mine is a significant concern for you? :shrug:

Whichever major party ends up forming government will no doubt claim a mandate to enact ALL of their policies, even though the opinion polls tell us there is huge disquiet out in the electorate at large over Adani. (Even in those areas in central and northern Queensland which stand to benefit from the jobs, support is nowhere near as strong as the pollies would have us believe.)

The Greens are the only party which seems to have a policy actively opposing Adani, but realistically, there are many people who would not be comfortable with the thought of a Greens-led Government - and most people will conclude that a Greens majority is really not a credible outcome, but holding a couple of seats in "the balance of power" might just happen.

I think a lot of people may vote Greens first (mainly to register a protest vote), followed by a vote for either LNP or Labor, whichever party best reflects their views on other matters. I think this will be the way I vote.

[julianh72]

+1 :thumbsup:

[julianh72]

It's true that the only formal response that you get will be a form letter thanking you for your comments, explaining why [insert party name here] is the only party who can be entrusted to enact sensible legislation on [insert policy matter here], while "the other lot" are [insert list of abusive remarks here].

It's also true that the politician to whom you addressed the letter or email will almost certainly never see it; the letter will be processed by their staff, and they will pick a suitable pre-approved form letter with which to reply. In general, the form reply will be loosely related to the subject you have raised; e.g. a letter on Adani may get a response on "the environment", but it will more likely be about "jobs"; however, it is very unlikely to directly address Adani, because this will be too close to the bone for them to be sure that they aren't aggravating you further.

However, i don't think that writing to politicians is a total waste of time - if nothing else, they will surely get a weekly update, summarising the "touch points" that are concerning the electorate, how they are faring against their competitors, how many letters were received, what topics were being addressed, and whether the feedback was generally positive or negative of their position. Eventually, even the most dim-witted politician will work out that a continuous flow of letters running 10:1 against Adani poses some sort of risk to their tenure at the next election.

[AussieTrooper]

I was about to say that.
The arctic is in big trouble. There are already massive issues with permafrost melt damaging rail, road and pipelines.
Greenland would be my proprerty investment tip. Global warming would see it return to the more balmy climate that allowed the Vikings to settle.
Hrmmmm, Olaf's real estate agency. Has a nice ring to it...

[AussieTrooper]

That's not quite true.
Because of my involvement in a group protesting Melbourne's North East Link Option A, and lobbying for the ring road to be completed properly, https://www.facebook.com/NoNorthEastLinkA/ I have been offered more meetings with state MPs than I can actually attend.
Get on to your MPs. It is their job to represent you. Remind them of that fact whenever you need to.

[lazjen]

This type of vote is the best way to go. The minor parties have no real chance of winning many (if any) seats and it certainly sends a message to the major parties when their primary vote is down.

[The_bluester]

Yep, my votes have gone that way for some years. I am in an extremely marginal electorate though it is marginal only in that one of the majors or the other typically takes it by a small margin, daylight to everyone else.

The major of my (Grudging) choice has to wait until my second last preference before my vote goes to them.

[julianh72]

There's a special place at the end of my voting paper reserved for Pauline Hanson's One Nation (if they stand), then just above them come all the other looney-left / looney-right candidates.

First place will go to my protest vote, then my preferred mainstream party, then usually will be the other mainstream party (unless they've shown an inordinate amount of ineptitude in recent months).

Remember - it will generally be one of the mainstream parties that ends up forming a government (possibly with the support of some of the minors). If the electorate pushes all the mainstream parties too far down the ticket, there's a chance that the "protest vote" mentality ends up electing someone that very few people actually want in power. (Anybody remember Ricky Muir and his 0.51% of the primary vote that was enough to get into the Senate?)

Much as we all like to moan about the mainstream parties, either of them would be better than some of the alternative single-issue parties - can you imagine an Australia governed by a coalition of Family First / Motorists Party / Shooters & Fishers? (Sure, they would have the weekend issues covered with lots of good ol' huntin ' and fishin' and ol'-time religion, but there's not a lot of policy-leadership on the Monday-to-Friday issues!)

[AndrewJ]

True, and they know it, which is why both parties now basically take the electorate for granted. It may just take both being thrown out and told to go away and grow up before they change their ways.

And what about the current "professional parties"????
How much of what they do is based on "good ol religion" ?????
Also, just look at the current buffoonery going on with the Senate leader now losing his job because even knowing he might be suspect, he kept quiet ( probably hoping the supreme court would rule as per messiah Malcolms predictions ).
I find it funny how in 8 caught ( so far ) the leader and deputy of the nats and the leader of the senate have all gone, after clinging on for dear life. ( At least the deputy of the Greens had the decency to go early ) 4 leaders in the 8 gone???
The born to rule / i'm above the law mentality needs to be removed from some of the rusted on career pollies and corporate machines behind them, and if that means one term with someone else, so be it.

Edit, I just saw on the news that even given all that has happened, the 2 majors are refusing to have a proper audit?? Wonder why?????
The US is still running, even with Trump :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Andrew

[brian nordstrom]

:lol: And I thought NZ politics was crazy .

Brian/

[AstralTraveller]

It just gets better!!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-02/adani-chinese-state-owned-companies-in-deal-to-bankroll-mine/9109880

If the Aust Gov't subsidies the project to the tune of $1.6billion then it will be close to being financially viable! That is to say: the project is not viable on its own merits. That should be the end of the story.

[pmrid]

And better again:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-02/adani-chinese-state-owned-companies-in-deal-to-bankroll-mine/9109880

It seems, we're allowing a Chinese company 78% state-owned to build and operate critical infrastructure in the Carmichael mine. As if leasing them Darwin Harbor wasn't bad enough!

I have had a mighty gutful of Chinese government getting into Australia and elsewhere. You have to ask what palms are being greased to make this happen with so little resistance. These are the same people who are muscling up in the South China Sea and positioning themselves to essentially control all shipping through that area, not to mention the undersea resources that are there. And the military consequences of that are huge.

Peter

[xelasnave]

One wonders why given what seems the publics view as to OS ownership there is still motivation by those in power to allow these opperations.

alex

[casstony]

If I lived locally I'd join the protesters trying to get in the way of the project.

[AstralTraveller]

Drive up and enjoy being called part of the 'rent a crowd'. You see, if you don't actually live on top of the coal someone is going to say that you have no right to an opinion or to protest. It's one of the standard slurs.

[The_bluester]

I only do it as it is the only way to make my thoughts about them known, in my electorate there is a better chance of me winning the seat than anyone other than the majors picking it up (No, I am not running!) I would have to watch my step and evaluate things better if we looked like we had an Indi style independent actually getting some momentum. You never know, if they were neither on the lunatic fringe left or right they might even pick up my vote.

As things stand, the major which I dislike the least eventually picks up my preferences before the other. And in 2013 it did go down to final preferences. We were officially the most marginal seat in the country after that one. 23 votes or something like that and quite a few recounts to get there.

Back on topic, it is very hard to believe that the government/s pushing very hard to get Adani up are swimming against the tide of world events.

[casstony]

I'd get to sling it right back at them having worked in brown coal fired power stations for 20 years :)
Those black coal weenies don't know what dirt is.