Compulsory Military Service.

[xelasnave]

I dont like the idea that the world spends so much on war but I think there could be a case for compulsory military service, say two years after you leave school and before uni or other education.

A sort of finishing school to build in life skills overlooked by parenting or schooling.

Teach them to make their beds, follow orders and perhaps be involved in aid programs.

Must be better than letting kids leave school fail to get work and generally give up...

Maybe ten years instead of two.

Alex

[strongmanmike]

Completely 100% against it, Military service should be strictly voluntary, encouraged sure but voluntary with no gender (or other) discrimination.

Mike

[el_draco]

Funny you should say that Alex. My 20+ year old has been trying to join up for two years. He's 6 foot plus tall, built like Arnie and currently works as a guard in a Commonwealth facility. Highly intelligent, he wants to become a military paramedic... Alas, he doesn't have ovaries and therefore can't get a position because the ADF is preferentially recruiting females in this area... Ah... that's called SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION in my books. :rolleyes:

So now he's considering the Royal marines because he can claim UK citizenship through me. This countries loss!:screwy:

[julianh72]

Too bad he's ineligible to run for parliament then?

(But perhaps he can still aspire to be our Head of State?)

[casstony]

Only the rich and powerful should be allowed to fight in wars. We'd have a lot less wars.

[dimithri86]

Or the two leaders walk to the middle of the battle field and fight to the death, the losing side goes home in shame. No reason young men should die for wars started by old men

[Slawomir]

Sounds like what parents should be doing at home :shrug:

Unfortunately, IMO these days parents too often not only totally spoil their kids at home, but even worse some parents frequently interfere way too much with what happens at school thus further hindering their children proper growth and development.

The problem is inadequate parenting which reflects some serious issues developing in our society. Giving guns to young people will not solve them.

[AussieTrooper]

As much as I would LOVE to tear shreds off every social justice warrior, entitled hipster and gobby leb that had the misfortune to set foot near me, the army's job is to defend the country, not solve problems that trendy, lazy, over tolerant parenting has created.
I am totally against any form of national service.

[FlashDrive]

I say ' yes ' ... it didn't hurt me .... I joined at 17years ( straight from high school)

Was taught to be disciplined in all facets of living .... being tidy / being responsible / learning to do as your told by your superiors / washing your own clothes / ironing your Uniform / spit polish your boots / how to handle a weapon ( SLR Rifle ) .... and general respect for all others.

In fact it made me a much better person and I felt better about myself.

And I was paid ' adult wages ' to do it ..... RAAF.

I do not advocate sending young men to War ..... this is purely for Leadership Training / Respect for others / Life Skills and for good self esteem.

2 years is long enough I'd say .....and when their time is done .... back into ' civilian life ' with a sense of contributing to themselves and a desire to enter the work force.

By the Way .... I chose to enter the Military for a career path .... I stayed and I came away with a recognized trade .

I saw the ' benefits ' of this service for me and stayed there ..... but those who want to re enter ' civilian ' life after 2 years can do so,hopefully with a sense of self respect and a sense of achievement.

Isn't that what young people want ( the fair dink'em ones anyway ) .... to have a sense of ' belonging ' in Society and opportunities for their future.

This is about giving them the ' tools ' to go on in life and to help them overcome difficulties they encounter.

Col....

[xelasnave]

Say we make the salary $2000 a week and enlistment voluntary.

Alex

[FlashDrive]

I'd say there would be a line up waiting to sign the ' dotted line ' for 100K a year.

Col.....

[Wavytone]

As one who has worked with the military for many years I'm all for it and I think it is much overlooked and/or feared by people who frankly are ignorant of what it has to offer. I also have immense respect for what they have achieved.

All of those I've known loved the experience and benefitted immensely from it, and it also gave them an excellent career path in civilian life afterwards - they are much sought after.

[astroron]

Hey but they can also get shot,blown up,disfigured mentally effected etc,for the paltry wages that they get.
Just cannon fodder for politicians.
I served 9 years in the British military before someone jumps down my throat
The defense forces are not the countries mother and father.
Discipline and growing up are societies problem.
Cheers

[Saturnine]

For those of us that were of the era when you could be called up for National Service with your birth date pulled out of an lottery barrel and sent to fight in Vietnam, it was a most traumatic time and those sorts of circumstances should never be inflicted on younger generations. If you want to serve you can enlist and I would commend you for wanting to serve your country as many , many fine people have done over the years.
Lets not confuse national service with actually being sent to fight in wars though.

[xelasnave]

Yes I was in the birthday lottery.
Not good.
Alex

[Saturnine]

Using some sort of national service as an excuse for easing unemployment or curing the supposed lack of discipline among the current 18 - 25 generation is a cop out. Let them enjoy being young and "free" without some of our older jaundiced judgements as to how they are supposed to behave. As long as their behaviour doesn't offend or cause damage or inconvenience or is illegal, let them have some fun.
As for direction and discipline from their parents, because of the wonders of our economy and the lack of employment opportunities, parents are overworked in a lot of cases to make ends meet and don't have time to tend to all their childrens needs and the kids can have a lot of idle time to fill.
As parents ,we know that teaching life skills and keeping our kids on a reasonably straight path through their formative years is as much a learning curve for us as it is for them.

[raymo]

That's just it, respect where it is due, seems to have largely disappeared,
and a lot of the behaviour that I see, both male and female, does offend me.
I'm with Flashdrive [Col] 100%.
raymo

[Slawomir]

It would be interesting to hear what the actual subjects - 18-25 y.o. think about being forced to do a military service for two years. In the end it is about them, isn't it?

[Larryp]

The birthday lottery was a bad joke if you were a medicine or dentistry student at the time.
In the ballot for the first 6 months of the year, they called up every eligible dentistry student and pretty much the same with medicine-they got their doctors and dentists without having to provide scholarships for them.
After many complaints, they toned it down for the second ballot.

[dimithri86]

National service would be a great idea, if the only time you could be called to fight would be on our soil to defend the country. Barring that scenario, keep the national service well trained, and put them to good use, building schools, water systems etc in places that need it.

[xelasnave]

I am encouraged by the overall rejection of the concept and recognition by some of possible benefits.

I suppose why I even thought about the idea was the concern I hold for some of our young folk who clearly are seen as the future unemployed whose sole roll in society is... well what is their roll? They live in times where if labour is needed it is imported, where Governments let businesses do such rather than seek to educate and train young folk and create a supply of talent... No there seems a choice to import workers rather than train locals.
And then gthinking about any of such matters one realises that one is becoming nationalistic which itself would seem a bad thing.
Alex

[casstony]

You're probably already aware that the US govt sent National Servicemen to Iraq which is not what they signed up for. Once you're on the books for having done any kind of military training you're liable to be targeted for draft. Governments prove time and again that they can't be trusted, certainly not with the lives our most precious young people.

Canadian dual citizenship is a good thing :thumbsup:

[Tropo-Bob]

I would like to see young people be offered a form of properly paid community service for a 12-month block, anytime that they wish to choose it between the ages of 18 to 22.

Young people could go into various streams where they could undergo a few months training and then be available as an additional backup to the workforce to undertake anything from responding and providing aid after natural disasters and/or be a roving workforce providing a bonus help on capital works for remote councils. I am sure other worthwhile jobs could also be found.

This would give every young person the chance to be engaged in the workforce and in some cases turn their life around. If a young person has never worked, and has no acceptable reason, then their dole should be reviewed and possibly ceased at 23.

[casstony]

I fear their primary role may be to rebel against an increasingly divided society, assuming unemployment rises due to automation/robots taking jobs.
Some have suggested a universal basic wage. Whatever it is, the solution needs to keep people involved in the community; optional military service and meaningful community service might play a part?

In any case if the haves don't find a way to include the have-nots things will get ugly.

[xelasnave]

A larger public service... So if you cant find work you have a job in the public service... And that way everyone is employed.

But I dont think a market economy can function with 100% employement... Inflation would need to be controlled by price fixing rather than interest rates.... Its not easy.
Perhaps go back to gold coinage... or shells or just let the banks control the money and society.

Alex

[casstony]

I guess it would have to be a two tiered system, still based on capitalism, with the lucky/smart/driven people having jobs they competed for but the (otherwise) unemployed still having a living wage and being included in the community.

[xelasnave]

I spent time in the public service and so many very good at their jobs and employable any where.
Some however in my view would not get employement in the real world.. But they had work and pride and income to put into the system.
We wont tolerate such inefficiencies to give someone work and self pride and yet happy to glorify sports stars and pay them very well.
I have no problem with folk getting million dollar salaries but if they get that at least give everyone work at some meager wage....
There is a two layer system at work now and I guess what I would like to see is no one forced to live on the dole.. I think having work no matter how inefficient the worker may be is preferable to having them not working board and susceptible to substance abuse because of boardom.

I think foke get more from having a job than just a pay packet.

I think my thoughts on compulsory military service was an effort to give everyone work... I assumed no one would actually be going to war.

Alex

[AstralTraveller]

True. I think people tend to forget that unemployment is a structural feature of capitalism, and possibly unique to it. Did you ever hear of an unemployed hunter gatherer? or subsistence farmer, or serf, or peasant? I'm not saying that any of these systems are preferable - they were replaced for good reasons - but lets not forget that it isn't the unemployed who cause the existence of unemployment.



Aren't you forgetting a tier? The capitalists.

[75BC]

I always thought this was a good idea but it was recently a subject on talkback radio. Someone involved in military training said how it does not work with someone who really doesn't want to be there. I'd never looked at it from that direction before and it did change my mind.

[raymo]

That seems to be a strange statement, as probably millions of men[ and in some countries, women] have done National Service in Britain and elsewhere, with no obvious ill effects, and almost all of them would not have wanted to be there.
raymo

[75BC]

I know what you mean Raymo and because other countries do it is why I thought it was a good idea.
They were talking about problems the trainers could encounter with a particularly difficult person in the current environment of the PC soft approach to everything. Can't enforce a the tough love approach anymore.
I also don't think all Australians in this demographic are going to be willing participants so I wouldn't like to be the one dealing with them. I'd end up on charges of some type. :mad2:
I don't think a lot of young people today like being forced to do anything do they?

[casstony]

There are plenty of legitimate reasons for not wanting to do national service, but we shouldn't let that interfere with the time honoured tradition of slagging off at the younger generation.

[xelasnave]

Why cant they be perfect like us.
I meet some unfortunate folk and I care ...that is my reason for wondering how things may be made better.

Alex

[Astrophe]

This is one out of left field. Surprising that Alex has the time to worry about such matters, when it's all too plainly obvious that the great man is pressed for time.

Let's face it, there's a snowflake's chance in Hell of reintroducing conscription.....which is really what Alex is proposing. I think that Alex should get himself a useful job, rather than waste our time with kite-flying exercises.

[AstralTraveller]

I understand that the US had lots of trouble in Vietnam with the conscripted 'grunts'. The stories I've heard probably emphasis the worst aspects but they are pretty bad. They include:


faking going on patrol (walk a km from the base, sit down for a few days, return and say you didn't see the enemy)
drug abuse, both marijuana and heroin (heroin had the advantage of being more compact, having no smell and the user looks less drug affected)
fraging unpopular officers. Don't know if this is true but supposedly a few officers had grenades lobed into the loo while they were there.

[Tropo-Bob]

Yeah, I heard a ex-military person saying that they did not want to have to be responsible for sorting out young-people's drug addictions; again for people that do not want to be there.

Perhaps implement it in some form for oldies on the pension seeing they 'respect' discipline and authorities so much. :rofl:

[casstony]

Left field is Alex' specialty. His posts are often thought provoking and he likes a good chat. I don't see any problem, though I admit it is unusual to find eccentric people in the field of astronomy :)

[xelasnave]

Well John you fail to see my concern for others even though I expressed that was my motivation.

I posted so folk like me could have a chat, even folk like yourself may even find time to express an opinion but in future you may be able to recognise that I open many kite flying threads and so you will be able to side step and not get involved and waste your time... You could put me on ignore and take me out of your universe altogether.

I doubt at 70 years old and using a walking frame and barely capable of looking after myself I could offer any employer much opportunity to profit from my feeble contribution to their business.

But think of it this way I am sure you must have gained some small satisfaction having a dig so maybe I can be that person you just love to hate.

Great man, a back hander indeed, don't you recognise humility when it is before you.

Hope you feel better and look forward to your future contributions.Thanks for playing I do enjoy it.

Alex

[xelasnave]

Apparently compulsory service tends to degrade the quality of a countries military according to someone on the net, but just like that guy I offer no authority.
Maybe he just thought that sounded good and adopted that position without any study...but so many folk fall for belief rather than seek research.
Alex

[graham.hobart]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-24/weak-parents-are-raising-a-generation-entitled-brat-boys/8837368


Today's ABC.
Seems we are raising a bunch of useless gorms! (especially boys)

:lol:

[Wavytone]

That's what the nanny state is producing ... a generation of ninnies and useless idiots.

If it wasn't for the nanny state most of them would have culled themselves - through their own acts of stupidity - before they could breed more of same.

[jenchris]

How about an incentive.
You can't stand for parliament unless you do some military service.
It could be air force or navy as well.
I did 12 years in the Navy - it can be fun (sometimes) and you do learn self reliance.
The Israelis do OK on it - and the Swiss.
The Swiss even get to keep their rifle and a load of ammo - Every swiss man over 20 has a rifle in their house. You don't hear many reports of unfettered violence from them, do you?

[casstony]

Sounds like BS to me, good subject for a professor/professional to gain publicity though, especially if he's selling a book. Schools today are more proactive in combatting bullying and violence than they were in my day and I don't see hordes of useless young people.

If you want to find troubled youth you can find them in economically depressed areas with accompanying generational poverty.

[Tropo-Bob]

Reminds me of a story from WW2. Goring was talking to the Swiss leader and asked him how many men he had to defend their border. Half a million was the reply.

German Field Marshal Goring then asked, what will happen if I send a million soldiers to invade Switzerland? The Swiss leader replied: Our men will each have to shoot twice.

[astroron]

In 1961 the British army went all professional.
It is beyond doubt that you get a better quality of serviceman from being fully professional.
The National Serviceman just does enough to do what he/she has to do,with the prime aim of counting down the days to his/her demob in two years.
It is inefficient to have national service as a person is just trained to do his/her job and they are out the door.
Ask any commander of an armed force what kind of soldier he would prefer,he will tell you every time,a professional any day.
The armed forces are not baby sitters for people who cant parent their children.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[xelasnave]

Yes Ron my proposal seems not the answer.
Alex

[Tandum]

The last thing i want is for the state to interfere with my son's future.

His school friend however is now in Israel for his 3rd tour of duty.

[Orionskies]

Compulsory Military service is a terrible idea Full stop.
Backwards and unnecessary and waste of money why should the tax payer pick up the bill for poor and lazy parenting .
The answer is simple stop cash hand outs to encourage breeding and put money directly into schools, hospitals etc.

And encourage sterilization!......I know through cash handouts! :P

Cheers Julian.

[blindman]

That was a good one :rofl:

[JA]

Not Really ....

JA

[xelasnave]

You sure know how to hurt a guy.
I am truely crushed to find that a member who is held in such high regard on this forum thinks so little of me.
Still I must move on, how I dont know.
Maybe I should go to the employment agency and find a job.. Kite flying perhaps.
Alex

[Astrophe]

Alex, thank you for your concern regarding my health.....I actually feel very well. I don't believe in ignore buttons. After all, we are here to engage with each other, not hide away by using ignore options.

As I am a fairly new member, I wasn't aware of your long history on this forum, so I apologise if I sounded too censorious, but it just struck me that the issue of military conscription wasn't on anyone's agenda and there hasn't been any mention of it anywhere....as far as I know. So, alas, I thought you were kite-flying and I probably went in a bit too hard. I have seen other forums, of which I have been a member, torn to pieces with flame wars, started by members who did not have the best interests of those particular forums, uppermost in their minds.

BTW, hope your health improves. I too am 70 (last week) and fortunately, I have no health issues of any concern. I gave up running a few years ago and I now find that I enjoy walking much more than running.....gives one a chance to think and enjoy a bit of solitude for a time. Cheers.

[sil]

Unfortunately true mate, I had a stroke a few years ago at 42 so I have a new permanent physical disability, can barely walk with a stick, lost use of one arm. People actively go out of their way to avoid interacting with me. Many will speak slowly to me, ijust want to smack them in the head with my stick and scream "physical disability does not mean mental disability ********". Its very clear I won't be able to get a job anywhere else or even be considered to promotion where I currently am , a government department so thanks to OHS BS they can't just sack me but they can make my work life unbareable and alienating in the hope I just piss off altogether. I am not disabled enough to get any sort of financial assistance either by definition in legislation and the government won't support studies of emerging treatments in use overseas either. All those miracle cures etc that crop up rarely on the news never actually make it into the health care system.


Anyway the national service idea could be good in theory but in practice would be badly implemented. First we need our democracy to actually BE democratic. IE the public decide on poltician pays and benefits and whether they stay in office or are allowed a pension. Technically they are meant to be accountable to the Public and we need to implement that. Then they will start to do things properly instead of short term political gains and doing the bare minimum. Sure you can say a lot of young are just lazy scroungers, but look at the leadership example they have to follow.

Yes a lot of parents think raising kids is a matter of throwing money at the problem (problem being actually interacting with their kids, teaching them, setting good examples etc). And our schools should be teaching many life skills instead we now have so many nannying laws: not allowed to touch children, not allowed to acknowledge any religions, etc all because its so easy to sue these days (another quick win solution, setting a bad example). If a child needs a comforting hug, damn well give them a hug, if a child is observing a religious day then teach the class about that, doesnt mean you have to teach complete ALL religions, you teach about the reason a child honours something and show its not something to be shunned, let all children join in and engage with various cultures through being allowed to talk about them. It doesn't need special teachers or special classes to do this just good communication skills (also a good thing for children to learn). It can work like a show and tell thing. Treat children like adults and they quickly learn to be adults, stop hiding behind a piece of paper with the word Policy in big letters across the top. Show some common sense.

Tangents, grrr. National Service, you want to give a generation of youth access to weapons and teach them to kill? Enough Yes Prime Minister. Scouts organisations might be the better direction with things like camping trips where everyone has no choice but to learn how to cook and clean and gets them away from their damn phones and tech garbage. They need to experience life to comprehend the benefits of doing things for themselves instead of being told what to do. Real experiences not fake ones, our Secretary used to do the sleepout every year and would spout on about how he had a deep understanding of what its like for the homeless: he had a nice warm sleeping bag (taxpayer bought), his iphone and warm food had been organised to feed everyone, just one night. So yeah, sounds like my experience of homelessness. Having people spit at you and abuse you throughout the day, having no cover from the rain, having to eat out of bins, having no access to toilets, these are what really happens that these staged events give no hint of, they are organised and catered for, organised for after the streets are empty of the public and everyone goes home before the morning rush of people too. The young need to experience the reality of life for themselves, if they want to think its all easy and like a video game then fine, they wont live to old age and their children will die off too, natural selection.Work For The Dole was meant to provide job skills but in practice it provides skills nobody wants and also does not try to integrate with local businesses so the skills can be put to use in the community in front of a potential employer and the rare cases they try its only because the business is being paid to babysit the unemployed and you never hear of anyone ever getting a full time job out of it. Our government is only concerned with the "image" of doing good, but in practice it doesn't work.

I speak from experience here, not assumptions.

[mental4astro]

As the TOS are no longer applicable on this forum, I'll tell you a tale about a regime with compulsory service.

One moning at the entrance to this nation's international harbour, a most grizzly sight greeted every one. Dozens of naked bodies were washing up on the shore. They all had one thing in common - they had all been shot in the head.

They were also all political prisoners. Men and women.

This regime decided they want to eliminate these people, not free them. Most were innocent, but were in the wrong place at the wrong time. So to dispose of the bodies, instead of burying them (mass graves can be found) they flew them out over the sea in a transport plane and dumped them into the water.

What they did not count on was the tide bringing back the bodies.

So I have a real chip on my shoulder when it comes to compulsory service. Have a guaranteed mass force, and the powers that be begin to feel invincible and use these powers at will and with total disregard for life.

Didn't we learn anything from Vietnam? Our own Government didn't give two thoughts about us to send our boys in when they were given no choice.

[Astrophe]

Excellent post, Sil.....thanks.

[Tropo-Bob]

Alex & Sil,

Two very good posts.

I have worked with a people and dealt with a lot of customers that were traumatised by the Vietnam war.

This is why I suggested a scheme that deals with natural disasters and supporting remote communities. I can see value in providing training and employment for young people, but have never been comfortable with providing unskilled people with skills mainly in weaponry and then letting them loose back into the community.

[xelasnave]

Happy birthday for last week John.

You must have done the birthday lottery also I expect.

Its funny I did not link conscription as we experienced it with the sort of thing I was trying to come up with...

And what got me going was a realisation how some in our society really dont have much of a chance.

Anyways no doubt my solution was wrong on many levels and like so many things it seemed like a good idea at the time.

And thank you for appolologising but there was no need, for I failed to connect between my idea and the draft way back, but of course I humbly accept your appology.

I dont think kids are worse today I think they have it worse than I did.

I have been very lucky and I wish the folk society forgets could be treated better.

Thanks again.

Alex

[casstony]

Thankfully our moderators are 'spirit of the law' rather than 'letter of the law' kind of people, so they allow us a little latitude in the General Forum.

[xelasnave]

Hi Sil
That was a most interesting post thanks for taking the time... You are so on the money.
Alex

[sheeny]

Not so Alex.

I can assure you this thread is being watched... closely.

Al.

[75BC]

Threads like this (as well as the starry stuff) are a reason I love being a member of this forum. 99% of people here are intelligent and respectful and is probably why the mods let us bend the rules.

Rarely in my short time here have I seen things go too far. :)

[AstralTraveller]

That's been true recently but you should (or perhaps shouldn't) have seen the great global warming debates. Idiots, trolls, rants, flames, ad hominem attacks, lots of locked threads and an eventual ban on the subject. Fortunately some of the more hot-headed contributors have retired themselves and I suspect many others have learned to bite their tongue. Things are much better now.

[Astrophe]

It's good to know that things are much better now. I was a member of a forum where climate change was a very hotly debated topic and many members were either suspended for a time, or banned completely (for the record, I was not one of them). The climate change debate seems to bring out the worst in some people. Best left alone, IMO.

[Astrophe]

Yes mate, I remember than time (the lottery of death, as it was called) very clearly. My father was a committed Labor man and he was adamant that if my number (or any of my brothers' numbers) came up, then I/we was/were going underground. He often said that he wasn't having any of his sons used as cannon fodder by the Yanks, or by the Menzies Government. Who was I to argue?

P.S. Many thanks for the birthday wishes.

[xelasnave]

Well you were lucky.
My father and father in law to be were both returned soldiers from WW2, both were liberal voters and thought the Labour party was controlled by the Communist party, and that unions were a communist plot to undermine society.
And I was law clerk in an office where the same beliefs were the norm.
If I was called up all would be proud that I went off to fight the reds and worse still I would have gone happily to fight the threat.
So I have come a long way to become a socialist.
Probably all a result of the cold war and the propaganda we were fed.
And thinking about conscription today I think why what I was suggesting in the op did not register was because I think I simply put those times out of my head.
And sadly we still dance to others music and the propaganda still goes on today...
What I learnt was at certain level of privilege it is impossible for them to see suffering is more likely a product of society rather than lack of enthusiasm or determination to work.

Perhaps you would care to join me in drafting the outlines of my proposed new world order.. It will work if all humans are given a labotomy.
Alex

[mental4astro]

There are a few things we need to understand.

If we are not happy with aspects of our youth today, remember that WE created it. WE created their apparent laziness. Not them, US, by not caring more about the way the education system has been taken and NOT voicing our concerns. By creating children who give up their responsibility for their own children to the system. By allowing the creation of the system we have now. And now we whine about how we see the young folk...

I came from a hell hole of a system that made all these mistakes, and it breaks my heart to see the exact same mistakes being done here, and WE are too arrogant to learn from the mistakes of others because WE see ourselves above everyone else. AND we are repeating the same mistakes, horrible mistakes, from not very long ago because from our apathy we allow polies and the media control us through fear and distraction.

It might surprise you that our youth have more balls than we give them credit for. No doubt that there are those who are lazy. EVERY generation has them. Remember those who were too smart for school? There are also those who see a certain futility in doing anything - why when the system is stacked against them. AND there are those who are now totally engrossed in their "Facebook" accounts - but don't forget, WE created this system. Not them. WE did.

And we are in one hell of a crap-hole mess to pull ourselves out from.

But there are those who do have balls, energy and courage, but they lack the leadership to encourage and guide them. To call them "idealists" shows we've been seduced by the system we've created. Who's got the balls among us to lead them?

Military service is not the answer. I do not offer a solution. I only seek to point out what we have done wrong, to see the flower that is before us and to not repeat the same mistakes.

To single out the youth is our mistake. Again. We created them. So why are we whinging?

So, who's got the balls to step up?

[xelasnave]

Hi Alex,
I will step up.
A very nice post indeed and I am inclined to embrace generalisation and agree.

However my op was not about addressing a non existent perception, on my part, that our youth has some sort of problem, and given my use of the words "compulsory" and "military" folk reasonably could miss my underlying concern with the system we call capitalism or the market economy.
I really don't like to blame anyone however...all do their best.

Let me outline my concerns.

A market economy or capitalism, again a generalisation which may seem to exclude exceptions but a fundamentally reasonable proposition, must have a percentage of the work force unemployed to manage or control inflation.

I would like to think this is not so, certainly I doubt any politician or banker would come out and say "yes that is the way it works" and yet one can't avoid the relationship between interest rate movements, inflation and the percentage of unemployment in the work force.

So what I believe, which is all I can offer without reference to sources of authority on economic matters, is the system needs in fact depends upon a section of society or the work force who are going to have little more to hope for than casual work at best but generally social security to fund their existence..A poverty class that "the American Dream" sees some escape but for the majority the dream will always be nothing more than a dream.

Fortunately the mingling of socialist ideas of unrealistic notions of wealth re distribution and the harse reality of a market economy sees this poverty class receiving money from the government rather than from secure employment, and that is good...I would say they are paid not to expect work as the norm.

And it is wonderful our system has arrived at a compromise between the harshness of the extremes of socialism and capitalism...

So as wonderful as the system is now I see the effect of folk living in this area of never reaching the dream and how this seems to lead to a hopelessness that many see as simply a problem of the youth today...Its not the youth really in my view it is a slight imperfection in what really is a great system...So it is the problem of how the system gives folk money and little else...

Compulsory military service may fix it by giving direction but even with direction the system can't allow the poverty class to be gone...so I see no way out of the problem I probably alone perceive...

Sorry to ramble but my thoughts are less than clear other to conceded that to suggest "compulsory military service" is not the answer.

In fact I am not even sure how the original question could be framed...

Alex

[Astrophe]

Great post, Alexander. Yes, where do we start? During my schooldays (late 1950s early 1960s), we had too much discipline and a truly barbarous punishment regimen, which included horrendous canings that no child should be subjected to. The more gentle and sensitive among us were really quite traumatized by these exhibitions of what was frequently just a power trip by teachers (who BTW were often returned servicemen) relieving their frustrations and post war angst on their (often) terrified pupils.

But as time went on, the pendulum swung too far in the opposite direction and reasonable discipline was seen as some sort of right wing plot, by the increasingly left wing teachers' unions, goaded on by new guard social revolutionaries, employed in the various State education departments' curriculum development sections.

This was all intentional social engineering, designed to replace the received wisdom of our liberal western social democratic traditions with.....God knows what!!!

[Orionskies]

STERILIZATION! :eyepop:

[clive milne]

Alex, I think the best I can say about compulsory military service is that it might teach useful skills that our current education system doesn't.

But that would be equivalent to suggesting that chlamydia is to be preferred over cancer.

Why not teach our youth how to live within their means, how to grow their own food, how to build their own home, how to preserve their own health, how to interact socially, how to think critically and how to identify the intellectual bankruptcy woven through the fabric of modern, western, consumer capitalism? But that would be unprofitable for the share holders, so not likely to happen any day soon.

[xelasnave]

Hi Clive
I tried to explain in variouso posts particularly the last that my ill concieved solution was really about addressing an unpleasant aspect of the market economy more than me thinking there is a problem with our youth, they are victims of the problem that I would call the sacrificial employement aspect of a market economy.
However I do conceed my initial idea for many reasons would appear an unsatisfactory solution.
Alex

[lazjen]

I'm against conscription. I did do some army reserve training during Uni, and I think it was an interesting experience - certainly enough to know I did not want to do anything else with it.

I wish we had something military-like, but was more SES (state emergency service) based that could be used for a youth service. Make it for search and rescue, disaster assistance and perhaps other community services. Do the training (physical, skills, etc), do the team work, leadership, etc that's useful for youth to get the experience/exposure.

Perhaps instead of being compulsory, other incentives can be used (not necessarily all):

* Pay more than unemployment benefits.
* Make it part-time like the army reserve, so students could use it.
* Maybe some discount on study costs (Uni/Tafe/etc)?

So while this service is providing useful skills, etc to our youth, it's also something useful for the community. Extra skilled personnel for disaster recovery, etc.

Only rough thoughts, but something different to the usual "military conscription" idea that keeps popping up.

[AussieTrooper]

I'd be in favour of this if it could be made to work. The only (fairly substantial) issue I see with it is what do you do with those who don't want to be there and will not do what they are told to? This is easily dealt with in the military, but in civilian life, even the police don't really enforce community service sentences. Something completely civilian would end up failing. We are just too self centred these days.

[clive milne]

I think that we are more or less in agreement Alex.. well articulated, by the way.

[torana68]

We already do! they need a way to get something back .

Military Service is a great idea, those that are scared of it are probably the same ones that don't like "work for the dole" and having to actually apply for jobs when on welfare, helping out within the community, giving instead of taking etc etc etc...

[astroron]

[QUOTE=torana68;1331635]We already do! they need a way to get something back .

Military Service is a great idea, those that are scared of it are probably the same ones that don't like "work for the dole" and having to actually apply for jobs when on welfare, helping out within the community, giving instead of taking etc etc etc...[/QU


:screwy::screwy::screwy:
Probably haven't done a day in the military.

[torana68]

31 years in uniform here , you can thank me later, silly comment (Im being nice here its not what Im thinking) :(

[multiweb]

+1 It would give a lot of kids a goal, a sense of belonging and team work. All skills to take back and apply to civilian life.

[AussieTrooper]

Roger is quite correct. As someone who has done more than 'a day' in the military, the types Roger described generally don't make it through the recruit camp.

[strongmanmike]

This thread is really quite amusing, in fact quite laughable......old men pontificating about what they think others need because apparently they are perfect specimens of Australians :rolleyes: :rofl:, like they are the sages of morality, societies needs and all knowledge and know what everyone else "needs" to fit into this deluded view yaaaawn.....

Thank evolution :prey2: that you have absolutely zero influence :nerd: :)

:lol:

[clive milne]

Now, now, Mike... that's a bit naughty!

[strongmanmike]

Ha ha why naughty? :shrug: shesh I mean seriously :rolleyes:, cripes it all reminds me of the great Monty Python sketch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo) ....almost embarrassing :eyepop: :lol:

Mike

[CJ]

I can't see this thread without remembering this bit of Sir Humphrey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA

[LewisM]

Geez Mike, which gubmint department do you work for again? LOL

But, i agree actually.

[doppler]

My daughter has been working casual at the same place for 5 years, 10 hours a week permanent part time .... this is all that corporation will give her so she needs a second job (she's had a few temps) lol. She is on centerlinlk benefits to supplement her meager earnings, but on top of working she has to do 20 hours a fortnight work for the dole (un paid) and still apply for 20 non existent jobs per fortnight to get her little safety net.

They should scrap centrelink, set up a work for the dole employement agency. If you are out of work and need cash you can work for 20 hours a fortnight for a community service at full award pay rates. Don't want to work, sorry no dole = no bludgers.

[Orionskies]

Save the Military the diss-service of a hundred and one mumma boys being put thru it. There are lots of other ways to teach respect and discipline in life. Let's leave the ancient art of killing fellow human-beings to the professionals.

Cheers Julian

[LewisM]

I attended the ADFA/Duntroon open Day on Saturday (hey, the helicopters, Roulettes, Hawks etc drew me there...plus the sound of automatic rifle fire...)

Anyway, I can assure you there are a LOT of Mumma's boys going through right now...I was taken aback actually. It's the modern generation - what do you say. Never done a day's hard work in their life.

Whatever - their choice, and good on them for doing it!

[xelasnave]

So for many as we dont experience close up observation of poverty or have contact with the class of folk who will never get stable employement. believe that there is no problem.

But I think its a shame that the system requires a section of the society to be forgotten simply to manage inflation.
I would like to see them get more than a payement to be content and to be happy that they are numbers used in adjusting the percentage of inflation.
I would like to see everyone with a job rather than just bouncing on a safety net.
Give every one a Government job where inefficiency can be tolerated.

And find another means to control inflation and keep the system healthy.

Since I moved to the bush I realised there are so many folk who would really like to work but unless they get a Government job they will miss out.

I dont think being concerned about poverty is a joke but the way some folk see or ignore the problem that I, presumably alone see, is unfortunate and reminds me of those monkeys who sit in the hot springs yet even with plenty of room for all exclude certain monkeys from the hot pool and happy to leave them out in the cold...

Alex

[strongmanmike]

Hmmm?..and you made this assessment based on what exactly Lewis? Do you know them all do you?... and what constitutes a Mumma's boy? what about the women?..all Mumma's girls I gather?

[xelasnave]

When you are old you just know;)

Alex

[strongmanmike]

Ah..hu..... :rolleyes: :lol:

[that_guy]

As a 20 something year old from a country where mandatory military service is a huge part of the culture. Theres a huge stigma against people who don't serve in the millitary. Whenever i go back to korea, I get asked constantly whether or not I've served. When I tell them I'm an australian citizen and no longer a korean citizen, they give me the dirtiest look. I can see why you'd need mandatory military service in countries like South Korea where nation wide conflict can occur at anytime. But places like Australia, theres literally no point. If and when the world needs Australia to join a war with conscripted military, the world would most likely be a giant nuclear wasteland.

[LewisM]

Based on that reply I am going with Russell Offices :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[strongmanmike]

Aaaah, based on your replies, I think John Scalzi writes about you Lewis...:question: :lol:

[jenchris]

Female service members join for different reasons than the males.
Mostly support roles anyway.
I was at sea but I was lucky in that my skills were in short supply..

[PCH]

Please do elaborate Jen, - what where your skills?

[LewisM]

I know, I know, Old Man's War

(if you meant Book of the Dumb, I'm gonna put a Horse Head nebula in your bed, capisce? :P)

[strongmanmike]

Unbridled love....

[LewisM]

Hey Wilbur, that's not a carrot...

[PCH]

Since Mike is your friend (presumably), it would be "capisci". Just sayin'

[strongmanmike]

Naaah he's right...SEE HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcp8rN-YqLw)

:lol:

[PCH]

Very funny, lol. But he knows I'm right, lol.

[LewisM]

Hey, don't push no boundaries here brudder, aroit? Mike's NOBODY'S friend, capisce? :P

[PCH]

Mike who? Lol

[AussieTrooper]

Because they are the only ones allowed to join now. :(

Kinda sad that someone who get there by merit is now going to be suspected of getting there via some gender quota instead.

[strongmanmike]

That's great, I'm all for getting more women into real front line roles, 50% of our population are being wasted, we could have a much better female representation than the current poltry 15.5% that make up the ADF and thus a bigger professional fighting force. Forget the admin support roles though, I mean real front line roles, like infantry, artillery, pilots, submariners, naval ship officers etc

Having said that I always find it disappointing that we don't see similar gender biased recruitment drives to get more men into nursing, child care, primary school and early childhood teaching etc, all dominated by women and screaming out for more men....oh well.

Mike

[xelasnave]

Hey Mike you are starting to sound like one of the old men.:eyepop:
What do think about the manners of shop assist persons :D
And why don't tomatoes taste good like they did years ago:D

Alex

[strongmanmike]

:lol:...well I am 50....that's on the way to old :P

[xelasnave]

A mere lad but very mature for such a young fella.

Alex

[xelasnave]

I joined a rock band at 50 when young and care free.
Alex

[AndrewJ]

is that meant to be paltry or poultry????

Andrew

[strongmanmike]

Aaaah well Andrew...clearly I meant Pulitzer. :D

[AndrewJ]

Gday Mike
Wouldnt want to get the chooks offside
( esp if they have access to a steyr ) :-)

Andrew

[AussieTrooper]

That is exactly what most defence personnel say. We would love to see more women in our ranks (they are very good at dealing with civilians on overseas deployments, especially in cultures that don't allow non-related men to speak to women), but only those who get there by merit, and not by excluding others.
It looks like part of the PC war on men, rather than any actual attempt to improve the defence force.

[astroron]

It looks like part of the PC war on men, rather than any actual attempt to improve the defence force.

You actually believe this sort of stuff:question::eyepop:
Cheers

[LewisM]

Narp, the AusSteyr would have a MALF or FTF, or the thermo-moulded plastic will warp and twist something critical (oh hang on, we sold all those affected ones to NZ).

Bring back the BBDS - aka the SLR / FN-FAL :) Dealing with chicken hordes from afar for generations :) When you need to reach out and touch someone, rather than dropping a few hundred yards in front of them :P

[sheeny]

The good news, Mike, is you never get there! I'm ahead of you. I'll let you know when I'm old.

Al.

[dbowie]

I would favour service to help a seemingly lost generation find their feet, of course we all hope war or strife will never come to our shores but at 57 and worn out Id still stand up and do what I could to defend this great land, hows that for patriotism...

[dbowie]

And of course our Anzac bro's in NZ.....

[AussieTrooper]

Please enlighten ignorant old me as to why a ban on men joining the army improves the army's capability.
Also explain why sexual discrimination is acceptable.

[AussieTrooper]

SLR would actually be quite useful in Afghanistan. The enemy likes to engage at maximum Kalashnikov range (400m or so). The Steyr will not drop someone at this range, but the SLR will. The 5.56 was selected due to the belief that most conflicts would be short range. This was the case in Iraq, but not Afghanistan.

[beren]

Is the new Thales Lithgow F90 in service now with the army ? Read that it had
interchangeable barrels {16-20inch}, would the longer barrel help with the effective range of the 5.56 nato round ?

[AussieTrooper]

Once you go past 16 inches, a longer barrel only very marginally affects the range. Too small to be noticeable. It does make the muzzle flash and noise level smaller though.
I believe there is a 7.62 version of the Steyr available. Haven't seen one though.