Sydney's water desalination plant.

[xelasnave]

At the time I said it was a con job so years on what has it delivered.
Has it ever supplied water or did Sydney just fall victim to the sky is falling corporation.
Was the capital investment worth it...how do we feel about the cost to have it turned off.
Who other than the recipients of the mony spent received benefit.
Alex

[cruxo]

Hi Alex, I think the plant on the Gold Coast is only ever used during floods and when treatment plants are undergoing maintenance. All the major dams up here filled naturally, and have stayed around 80% capacity(or more) since before the desalination plant construction was completed. :screwy:

[xelasnave]

Hi Craig
I recall years ago the retiring premier in a burst of activity went out , not to inspect hospitals or new road building stuff or any of those things one would consider very important, to inspect water desalination stuff in Dubai... Being a suspicious person I draw many unsupportable conclusions about that "research".

Now all this spending would not upset me other than I think a reasonable analysis of our wants and needs would probably see the money go elsewhere.
I can't think of anything at the moment but its seems so much money for such little benefit.

Alex

[Steffen]

Well, the rampant salt shortages is Sydney supermarkets have subsided.

[gregbradley]

Australia is a land known for its droughts. So do you plan vital supplies based on normal rainfall or do make plans for contingencies and the worst scenario?

Not every project is about Govt corruption or stupidity. I for one think its a good thing to have a backup reserve. Water is not something you take for granted in basically a desert continent.

I worked in Goulburn for about a year when they had really high level water restrictions and what water they did have tasted foul. Not a good thing in a first world country.

If there were a drought and Sydney was faced again with running out of water the Govt would be labelled as stupid and not preparing for the future. If they build one and then we get normal or better rainfall for several years they get accused of waste and corruption.

Would you live in a house that had a limited water supply from rainfall only that would run out with no way of replenishing it if there were a 4 year drought (extremely common in Australia). I wouldn't.

Greg.

[xelasnave]

Hi Greg
Thanks for your input.
I can recall as a kid having to take boiled water to school during drought.
I think the approach Hong Kong took with the plover Dam project would be the way to go but I doubt many would agree.

I hope the Sydney Desalination Plant is used one day to save the city but I bet if you analysed the cost over time we could buy bottled spring water...

Thanks for presenting a counter view.

Alex

[casstony]

I imagine it would be much cheaper to recycle sewage water than to build desal plants.

[el_draco]

Wahahahaha haaaaa.. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

... but in all seriousness, Melbourne has just been told the'll be out of water by 2060.... discounting climate change of course, which all good conservatives know... is a Chinese/Labour/Green/Scientific conspiracy :rolleyes:

[xelasnave]

Here is a link to wiki re the plover dam.

The basic idea is you dam a cove off from the sea and let it fill with fresh water.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plover_Cove_Reservoir

Alex

[gary]

Hi Alex,

Today Warragamba Dam's level is at 91.9%. But consider that
only ten years ago, in 2007, it reached a record low of 32.5%.

Through the early and mid 2000's it remained low and water restrictions
were in place. Fast forward to more recent times and levels have
managed be high enough to go over the spillway.

So statistically that is a very large variability in levels in an historically very
short period of time.

The question perhaps is not whether it will ever run low again - it will -
but what price one is prepared to pay for ensuring that a city of 5+ million
people never runs out of water.

In cities where there is pandemonium if the electricity goes off for 30
minutes, imagine a scenario where a city the size of Sydney were without
sufficient water for days, weeks or months?

And Sydney keeps growing at an alarming rate.

In 2001 the population of Sydney was around 4.1 million and today it is
well over 5 million.

Insurance is always a double-edged sword. If we get lucky and
we look backwards and decided we didn't need it, we see it as
an opportunity cost.

But just like how we pay firemen to be on standby 24/7 in fire
stations around the country, we are grateful for the day they come
when it is our house which is the one on fire.

In an ideal world, you would be able to predict the future and only
build a new firestation or water supply the day before you needed it.

Alas our crystal ball is not that accurate.

An alternative emergency standby water supply for Sydney also
makes a lot of sense in the current security environment. Something
I would prefer not to discuss here but you know what I mean.

[casstony]

“Recycled water produces far more water [than desalination], it’s far more reliable in terms of actual operations, it uses less power, it provides a beneficial use for ground water, it offsets surface water supplies, and it actually prevents discharges into the ocean, as opposed to creating them,” Conner says.

https://psmag.com/environment/rundown-on-recycled-wastewater

[xelasnave]

I found this...

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/535m-paid-to-keep-desalination-plant-in-state-of-hibernation-20150410-1miuw6.html

That's half a billion since 2012 isn't it?

So add the capital cost and the maintenance cost that must make the water we can eventually expect rather expensive per litr.

One wonders why we don't use sea water for the sewer...I wonder if the pipes would clog from salt.

Alex

[xelasnave]

And this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Desalination_Plant

Alex

[Wavytone]

Unfortunately journalists aren't good at basic maths nor economics.

Consider instead the annual per capita cost - 4 million people over 5 years ... $25 a year.

OTOH the next time we have a prolonged drought consider the screams if it were to reach the state Golburn did last time in the early 2000's - no showers, no baths, no laundry - water to be used for essential consumption only.

I suggest most would happily forgo a trip to MacDonalds once a year if that's the price of a secure water supply.

Even if a desal plant was used to provide water to grow fruit & veg it still makes economic sense, although the environmental aspects might not be so satisfactory.

I'm surprised that aren't positively foaming at the mouth at Sydney trains spending a much bigger number - $10B - on the Waratah train fleet - whilst conveniently forgetting they move a million passengers twice every day. That's more than 20 BILLION passenger journeys in the life of the fleet, at a cost of about $2 a trip. Now consider the rather unpleasant alternative of adding a million cars on the roads and the real cost of commuting by car.

[xelasnave]

Hi Gary
Thank you for joining the discussion.
You mention Sydney's growth...its great I am hoping to sell out for high rise it is only a matter of time.

Folk analyse why Rome collapsed, the city rather than the empire, well the barbarians ( not the Romans their attackers) trashed the water supply.

The city went from one million to ten thousand in a year...so they say.

So 5 million people have paid approx 2.5 billion over how many years say five...what is that per head and how much bottled water would that buy.

Although not a maths person I love working out that sort of thing.

But I think from the wiki link we are in it for fifty years..power comes from a wind power company...anyways the money would have provided lots of jobs and the interest on capital provided income for many retireeees.

I will save working out the sums until bedtime...working stuff out without a calculated I feel helps keep the mind working and sure helps getting off to sleep.

Again Sydney growing...I nearly drove off the road when I saw that huge development at Mt Colah...

And where you are imagine how it will go..walk to station equals high rise in the future...
Twenty stories now at Epping apparently.
Alex

[Visionary]

The same people behind Sydney's Desal Plant.

[xelasnave]

I think Malcolm should go to the next election with a promise that under his government folk will get to drink recycled sewage.

If he promises to do that I would vote for him.

Alex

[xelasnave]

Hi Wavy
Look you can prove anything if you want to rely on facts and actual numbers.

Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Alex

[Wavytone]

Much of the infrastructure is in cement-lined cast-iron pipes. They would be destroyed very quickly if salt water was used. Secondly a lot of it is fairly leaky - to the extent salt water would quickly poison most of the land in Sydney. Most parks and gardens would die and the salt would be impossible to remove short of scraping off the top metre of everything and disposing of it somehow.

In the long term it would also poison the acquifer that lies under most of the greater Sydney basin - and that is fresh water. Not exactly potable but it's good enough for watering market gardens.

Sorry Alex - as an engineer I think about current reality and what possible alternative choices could be made, their outcome, and which one is preferable - and why.

What boils me is the way greenies and hippies try to force loopy ideas on society for ideological reasons, or worse, romantic fantasies of way things once were (I'm referring to the bush) rather than thinking about what it COULD BE in the future.

[Visionary]

Alex,

We are a desert continent and we don't recycle our water? Yet we have the temerity to describe ourselves as Green!
The Desal plant was never anything more than an exercise in political expedience by a desperate Gov without thought or care for the public cost, much like the NBN.

David

[xelasnave]

So now that you have identified the problem all we need is to replace all the pipes with environmentally friendly plastic.

Alex

[Visionary]

Yes!

[xelasnave]

:)

No no no ...yes.

Pink bats, cash for.clunkers.

But what do you do.

I drive past the road works up here...cast of thousands... resurfacing a road that was OK.
The back roads cry for attention but miss out.

The equipment ...well its all OK cause it keeps the money rolling...

One section must be a million dollar cost...steel beams to shore up the road ...I have driven past there for twenty years no sign of subsidence... But how should I know, maybe just maybe the effort was warrented...

Alex

[Wavytone]

:thumbsup: now you're making sense, god forbid !. In much of Europe water passes through 8 sets of kidneys before it is allowed to reach the sea.

[Wavytone]

unfortunately plastic isn't environmentally friendly, nor last a very long time... and too easily broken by machinery or people digging.

Best choice IMHO is stainless steel grades 904L or RK65, which will still be intact when the sun boils earth dry in millions of years.

[xelasnave]

I have not figured out how much water the plant can supply ... Must look that up.
We may need another.

I have a nephew who works for the desalination mob I must let him know and he can put it in the suggestion box.

I think each house could have water.tanks but there would be health problems maybe.

Alex

[xelasnave]

I like that idea...so what company should I get shares in...

Plastic in our oceans apparently is a problem and I read someplace plastic mimics estrogen and all species are having.trouble creating males and all life will die off.

If that's true the desalination plant was definitely a.waste of money.

Alex

[xelasnave]

From the wiki entry

Controversies Edit

Water quality concerns regarding the proximity of the seawater inlet to the desalination plant to the nearby sewage ocean outfall.[31] Environmental economists from the Australian National University studied the project after its completion and determined that "it was a costly decision that did not need to be made while dam levels were high." [32] In 2014, it was reported that the desalination plant was costing the taxpayers $534,246 per day as the plant sits idle. This was the price that the NSW Liberal-National Coalition government agreed upon when they set the 50-year lease with the plant's owners upon privatisation in 2011. To turn off the desalination plant all together would cost an extra $50 million.[33]

.......

Five hundred grand a day?
Can that be correct.

Alex

[xelasnave]

If so that is $10 per man woman and child ...taking 5000000 as the population.

Alex

[Boozlefoot]

Most people in city environments have no idea regarding water usage. ( I have lived in city and bush scenarios, and been heavily involved in water infrastructure in capital cities.) Australia is fairly lucky as to the availability of relatively cheap water in its cities, and a larger use of water tanks would be a great advantage. My children were taught from an early age the actual value of water, and this is now being passed onto the next generation. Its not a case of rationing, more a case of "sensible" utilisation of our most valuable resource.

[lazjen]

There are some places around that do recycle the water - maybe not directly back into the drinking water supply, but back to dams. From memory, Brisbane and Toowoomba do this (or have done it in the past - not sure now the water supply is back up again).

What I'd like to see is more interconnection between the various dams/rivers/desalination plants to be able to shift surplus water to places that need it. Imagine if we could pump extra water into the Murray-Darling system for example. (Mind you, the cynical side of me would then expect more of the corruption/greed that was recently exposed).

We fail as a country as we tend to react for our water - acquire through random events. Instead we need to take control and ensure we can generate any shortfall and get it where it's needed.