Best camera for nightscapes?

[gregbradley]

I am looking to do some more lens imaging and am looking at whats the best camera out there for that.

It would have to be modified if its a DSLR. Canon 6D seems leader of the pack.

Alternatively there are these new QHY Sony cooled CMOS cameras.
How would you make them portable though as they would need a power supply and I suppose a laptop:

http://qhyccd.com/MediumCOLDMOS.html

There is the Canon 60Da and the Nikon 810a. Alternatively a modified Sony A7r would be just as good if not better (lighter for the Polarie).

Suggestions?

Greg.

[Atmos]

Having used a D810 I'd say that a D810a would be even better.
The 6D is a tried and true performer, less demanding on optical performance than the D810a, considerably larger pixels.

Sony has a noise reduction setting for exposures >30s that cause serious issues for astro work.

The QHY367 would be great for summer being able to cook the sensor.

[gregbradley]

Yes except Milky Way shots are really a winter thing so cooling is not really needed. But sub zero cooling would still get things cleaner.

Greg.

[gregbradley]

Noone?

Greg.

[DJT]

I have a 60da which I have done some Milky Way shots with. This is a single 30 second sub using an ef18-35mm lens. Betwe processing should have brought out more Ha though. The M20 and M8 image I posted from the last star party was shot with that camera.

http://astrob.in/188992/B/rawthumb/gallery/get.jpg (http://astrob.in/full/188992/B/)

I dont have much experience of wide field imaging though so can't really comment on other options however I might try a modified 5dmkll this weekend with the same lens if the weather holds out.

Cheers

[gregbradley]

Hi David,

Do you have another link as that one only goes to a tiny thumbnail image.

Greg.

[lazjen]

The link is off astrobin, so chop the extra bits off: http://www.astrobin.com/188992/B/

[DJT]

Cheers Chris


Full version here
Sagittarius in the Winter (http://astrob.in/full/188992/B/?nc=Djt&real=)

[alocky]

Hi Greg - I have the D810a and absolutely love it. I don't need to tell you though that the camera isn't the whole story! But mine at least got the Brian Cox stamp of approval :-)
here's a few through the D810a, using a polarie and lensees from the zeiss 135mm
http://www.astrobin.com/251295/
http://www.astrobin.com/242759/
http://www.astrobin.com/235968/
with the nikon 50mm 1.4 (which I do not recommend for astro).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/photon_collector/34124215074

and it does a pretty good job on the back of a Tak FSQ106 too...
http://www.astrobin.com/189475/B/

cheers,
Andrew.

[DJT]

Good grief Locky..how do I peel the 810 off my wife and modify it without her knowing?

[alocky]

You could try the 'backup body' for the 810 argument? The 810a has a few changes from the 810, they've moved the electronics around inside to keep the noise down, and the M* mode has a highly gained up live view - through the fsq in live view mode I could see most of the m8-m20 nebulosity. Plus, with the electronic curtain shutter and 3s delay you can take 10 minute subs without a cable release...
My secret to buying toys like this is to take an interest in something a bit extreme, say skydiving, get magazines, talk about it, leave brochures lying around, but then say you really Need an 810a, but if you were going to get it, you wouldn't be able to afford the skydiving, new motorbike, etc.. :-)
Funny how supportive they become...
Cheers
Andrew.

[netwolf]

Just had to say Andrew that's an awesome idea. Hmm maybe skydiving wife wants a motorbike. And awesome shots too. I have a d600 and like it a lot can't yet afford the 750 or 810

[OzEclipse]

Greg,
There are many sites that can help compare cameras, and some that can lead you astray.

DxOMark performs a standardized noise level test on all cameras. For a standard low light level, they measure the ISO which gives noise at -30dB.

https://www.dxomark.com/cameras/launched-between-2010-and-2016/launch_price-from-0-to-45200-usd/sensor_format-sensor_fullframe#hideAdvancedOption s=false&viewMode=list&yDataType=rankLln

The top 5 full frame cameras in this ranking are :
Sony A7s
Sony A7Rii
Pentax K1
Nikon Df
Canon 1Ds

I used filters to exclude medium format cameras which can rate higher.

The Canon 6D is 26th on the list and has an ISO yielding -30dB noise that is about 2/3 of the top cameras. It is showing its age.

Note that they don't state the light level used. Given that they call this sports photography, I've always assumed is likely to be night time sports ground lighting levels not 2 minute exposures.



Photons to Pixels site has these comparison tools

DxOMark data using Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) for different ISO's.
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/DXOPDR.htm


http://www.photonstophotos.net
http://www.photonstophotos.net/gif/b1ff00ff.gif Photographic Dynamic Range Chart (2017-06-03) (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm)
http://www.photonstophotos.net/gif/b1ff00ff.gif Photographic Dynamic Range Shadow Improvement Chart (2017-06-03) (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR_Shadow.htm)
http://www.photonstophotos.net/gif/b1ff00ff.gif Read Noise in DNs Chart (2017-06-03) (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_ADU.htm)
http://www.photonstophotos.net/gif/b1ff00ff.gif Input-referred Read Noise Chart (2017-06-03) (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_e.htm)
http://www.photonstophotos.net/gif/b1ff00ff.gif Sensor Heatmaps (2017-06-03) (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/Sensor_Heatmaps.htm)
http://www.photonstophotos.net/gif/b1ff00ff.gif Photographic Dynamic Range versus Sensor Area Scatter Chart (2016-12-06) (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR_Area_scatter.htm)
http://www.photonstophotos.net/gif/b1ff00ff.gif Low Light ISO versus Sensor Area Scatter Chart (2016-12-06) (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/LowLightISO_Area_scatter.htm)
The Nikon 810, Sony A7s and Pentax K1 yield similar results - not surprising since they all use the same or similar Sony sensors. The Sony probably makes the best use of the sensor. Nikon has the best external camera control and software support and the biggest range of lenses to choose from. Pentax has poor external connectivity but the best internal functionality for stand alone operation.

Sony A7s - lower noise at very high ISO's for nightscape "snapshots." Lenses are very good but expensive and limited in variety.

Nikon 810 - best connection to camera control software. Widest range of OEM and 3rd party lenses (Nikon, Tamron, Tokina, Sigma, Samyang etc)

Pentax K1 No external computer driven support. Limited high quality lenses, very expensive. Possibly has the best(?) inbuilt standalone support.

I have a K1. I'm not especially advocating for the K1 and I have not had nearly enough time in the field with it to explore its full potential. Mine is not modded and I won't be modding it. I use my camera to teach photography workshops. I do live imaging for class demos with live view to screen and don't want to have to explain the strange colour shifts.

I'm yet to see anyone advertise mods for FF Pentax. My choice was in no small part driven by the many Pentax lenses, flashes and other accessories I already owned. You would have to determine if it suits your needs.

Below is a list of features I find useful for AP. Perhaps 810 & A7s users can provide lists of useful features for you.

Starstream - automatically stacks brightest parts of sequential images to make composite star trail images;
Astrotrace - uses GPS & image stabilizer to shift sensor to pseudo autoguide exposures up to a couple of minutes. Longer focal lengths can only be guided for shorter times.
Time lapse support - Inbuilt time lapse drivers for movie or series of stills
Exposure bracketing - 5 steps of up to 2eV gives up to 10 stops of autobracketing. I have found this feature, standard in all non-entry level Pentax bodies, very useful for capture at solar eclipses.

I have posted a centre cropped jpg of a dark taken at ISO 6400, 5 mins at 21C. The IIS engine has compressed it.

If you are interested in the K1, I can send you some other darks. A 16 bit PSD files are 200MB ea :), RAWS 50MB and would have to made available be via ftp so please don't ask me to do this unless you are really seriously interested in this camera.

Good luck with your search.

Joe

[gregbradley]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for that listing.

I have A7r2 and had an A7r and also a Nikon D800e, Fujifilm XE1, XT1, X100S and now an XT2.

Sony A7s sounds good on paper but some of the images I have seen seemed to have a greenish cast. Not sure if its the processing or the camera but it made me a little suspicious.

A7r has the same sensor as your K1 the Sony Exmor 36.3mp full frame. A very nice sensor. Its also packaged in the QHY367C camera which is cooled and gives true RAW images but that is US$4399.

The issue with Sony is the fact they cook the RAW long exposures with a hot pixel suppression algoritihim that can diminish or delete faint stars confused as noise and weaken other stars. For a nightscape perhaps that does not really show up too badly as there are literally millions of stars but still.

A7s also does this as far as I know. But I think in the earlier models it may only kick in in bulb mode. Same with my A7r2 (I think) as I did not upgrade the firmware to the latest versions which make it kick in above 3.2 second exposures.

Sony though has the widest range of lenses as basically any lens from any company will fit a Sony with the appropriate adapter as it has the shortest registration distance of any camera maker. Fuji is similar with a few mm difference to the Sony.

Fuji do not apply a hot pixel suppression algorithim (at least not that I know of).

Canon has the largest array of cheap modded cameras that turn out nice Milky Way shots (potentially of course).

A modded Sony A7s or A7 or A7r may be good as I can use my lenses and adapters for the A7r2 on it.

There is a new Canon 6D ii being released on the 29th of June. Its supposed to have 1.5 stops better noise at high ISO. Perhaps that may be worth it but it will be US$1999 plus the mod plus a Canon lens or two. Not sure its worth it for the slight gain over the Sony.

I may just settle for a cheaper modded Canon 600D and a Samyang 12mm F2.

The Pentax sounds good, its quite cheap for a full frame camera with that nice 36mp sensor which I like and the astrotracer function sounds useful if not quite as good as a Polarie tracker in performance.

Greg.

[troypiggo]

Isn't that Samyang 12mm for mirrorless cameras only?

[gregbradley]

I just checked it out, yes you are right. Its only for the Canon mirrorless.

Greg.

[Octane]

6D Mark II announced.

I'll be getting one.

H

[gregbradley]

What do you find most appealing about it? Dual Pixel AF? New Sensor? touch screen and variangle LCD? I did read about a 1.5 stop improvement in high ISO performance. That would be good if true.

I am wondering about its possible improvement over the 6D but then I would only be using it for nightscapes so a lot of those AF improvements etc, would be wasted on me. I just want the low light nightscapes performance.

Greg.

[Octane]

Just that the colours you get off the back of a Canon sensor are the nicest out of the bunch of systems, with no green or magenta casts.

All the wizardry around autofocus, etc., is lost on those of who will be using it primarily for night time work.

Coupled with the mindblowing Digital Lens Optimizer module in DPP, it would be a formidable weapon for night time work.

H

[gregbradley]

I do like the nightscapes I see with modded Canons.

Have fun with it and perhaps you can write a review about it here.

Greg.

[Camelopardalis]

If you're interested in a Canon 6D or better, you'll likely be disappointed with a 600D. It's noise behaviour is nothing like the 6D or your X-T2, both of which also pass more Ha unmodded than your average Canon.

I have the Samyang 12mm f2 for my X-A3 and it's a nice lens, not perfect, but certainly collects light...in 13 second exposures, the pink Ha is obvious around the Lagoon, Swan, Eagle, Prawn nebulae.

[gregbradley]

Thanks very much for that post. I was considering a 600D but really I think it would have been a compromise. 6D it is. Now its whether the latest model is worth the extra $s over the original or not. For nightscapes the original seems to do really well. I'd have to know the latest model would be significantly better.

Yes the XT2 is quite good, so is my A7r2 despite the hot pixel suppression system.

Greg.

[Camelopardalis]

Greg, considering your current cameras, I can imagine your (potential) disappointment...the 6D was launched 5 years ago and times have changed.

I loved my 6D though, took cracking photos day and night. Thermal noise would spoil long exposures on summer nights up here in QLD though.

[casstony]

The Canon 7d2 was shown to have dark current 10 times less than previous generation Canon DSLRs, including the 6D. I assume the 6D2 will have similar improved technology.

I'll be trying to pick between the Canon 6D2 and the Nikon D750, hoping to stick with Canon since I already have cables and adapter's to suit.

[Atmos]

I'd be interested in the Nikon D820 and if they come out with an "A" version. It'll most likely have the sensor from the Sony A7RII but without the Star Eater noise reduction feature.

[gregbradley]

You're cooling my jets here! Thanks for the info as I don't want to get one and be disappointed. You are right I should wait for reports on the latest model and see how it is.



Roger Clark says the 7D2 sensor is the best he's used. Sounds good but I am not that thrilled about APSc size. I have XT2 which is probably better as its the latest copper wired Sony Exmor 24mp sensor and its really very good but full frame is always a bit better I think. 6D2 should be interesting.



I have an earlier firmware on my A7r2 so "I think" the star eater issue is OK for me if I stay at 30 seconds. For nightscapes though it does not seem that much of an issue as I have taken all sorts of exposures, lower ISO longer time, high ISO shorter time. 90 seconds ISO 3200 worked well or ISO1600 and boost. Sony sensors are ISOless meaning you can expose at a lower ISO and boost in post for much the same brightness etc as a higher ISO exposed image. Within reason.
A7r2 is very good but some coloured speckled noise in the shadows which the A7r never had but it processes out quite easily and the star eater thing was Sony's response to this speckled colour noise (poorly implemented like Nikon's was for many years- same issue).I think its likely (given the amount of internet talk about it) that the star eater will be fixed. A recent firmware was a failed attempt to fix it and it improved it slightly but its still a problem). Luckily I did not "upgrade" my firmware so my camera is running on the firmware where it kicks in only in bulb (I think a recent test I did seems to show it kicks in also at 4 seconds but not completely clear).

My other question is does a modified camera work better for nightscapes or is it really only better for telescope imaging?

Greg

[lazjen]

Am I right in assuming you want a camera that doesn't require an external power source and computer to operate?

Otherwise I'm wondering if the QHY/ZWO camera might be an option as you can get cameras that can be easily cooled. I like my Canon 6D but as noted, the thermal noise when the temperatures are warm is not great. With these new cameras, they've got the cooling integrated and they are targeted at astro work.

Although I have not used it, the ZWO cameras can be controlled from Android devices, so you might be able to avoid needing a computer (there's probably something similar for other brands?). And I suspect a small portable power source for the cooling (when needed) might be possible, although most likely the largest sticking point for this solution.

I'm considering getting the necessary bits to try this approach with my Polarie and the ASI1600MM-C I've got (although I'll still use a little laptop for controlling it all). I'd be adding my filter wheel to it, but with the right adapters/spacers, I think I should be able to use the Canon lenses ok and not too much weight - might need to get the extension kit though for the Polarie. However, this is down the list for now until I get through my other tasks/projects. :)

[Retrograde]

Hi Greg - thought this might interest you if you haven't seen it:
https://www.outdoorphotographer.com/photography-gear/cameras/hands-canon-eos-6d-mark-ii/

In my opinion for nightscapes you definitely want both full-frame and modded - the latter especially if you are planning on using tracking for your nightscapes and going deep like this: https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170530.html

Cheers,
Pete

[Camelopardalis]

I've posted this link in a separate thread in AP equipment, but Canon are using an Aussie astrophotographers in their promotion of the 6D Mk II...

https://www.canon.com.au/explore/astro-timelapse-6d-mark-ii-matthew-vandeputte

It'd be interesting to get his feedback on Ha response, for example.

[gregbradley]

That guy's nightscapes are superb. He uses a Baader IR modded 6D and a Samyang 24 1.4 at F2.8. The Ha areas are subtle and not exaggerated and its a good look.

I'll wait for 6D2 reviews and performance and decide then. Used modded 6Ds may come down in price as owners want to upgrade to the latest model.

Greg.