a question on etiquette

[DJT]

I am interested in people thoughts on how far critique should go when providing feedback on images.

Should it include taking someone's data, reprocessing and posting it back up?

Personally I am more than happy when people provide constructive comments as it can only add to my knowledge but uninvited reprocessing..not sure about that. Those final touches are a personal thing.

What do others think?

[Camelopardalis]

The data is the only part that's objective, the processing is subjective...so all subject to personal taste/bias, calibration of screen, etc, etc.

IMO reprocessing is OK so long as it's respectful...I mean, if the poster uploads an image for critique/suggestions then sometimes a picture says a thousand words. Personally, I find it a bit off when someone posts a response with a tweaked version but doesn't volunteer the steps to get there. Processing is a learning process, I'm not convinced it's ever perfected, and we can all learn a thing or two.

[Atmos]

For me it all comes down to context and how it is put forth. You can do it as a way of explaining what you mean, a picture says a thousand words. Saying "it looks a little soft" or "it lacks contrast" may be constructive but displaying that as an example can help.

You always have to pick your target however as some people don't appreciate it, others don't care.
There can be a fine line between constructive and criticism :)

[glend]

Thanks for bringing this topic up. Personally i do think some of the recent 'commentary' on images posted on IIS comes very close to bullying. I don't consider myself having a thin skin concerning my interpretation of what something should look like, and I always stress that i see this activity as Art. Unfortunately, some people seem to lie in wait for someone to post an image that does not conform to their interpretation of the "imaging standard model". Uninvited reprocessing is just plain rude and usually demeaning to the original artist. For these reasons I do not post any more images on IIS. I get plenty of 'Likes' from Astrobin and family and friends, that is approval enough for me. ;)

If your intent is conformity to the group then you will get advice that takes you in that direction, but it's not for everyone.

[Marke]

I'm with you on this Glen I rarely put anything up for the same reason . There a few who are generally respectful and I appreciate their comments and others just a bit too abrupt for my liking. Also seems unless you are well known regular people rarely bother to comment anyway.

[multiweb]

If you put a photo for comment on the public domain then you have to expect some occasional flack. If that upsets you and you post only expecting good comments to feel good about it then don't risk it. We're all doing the same thing here. Taking pics and showing them off. We learn from each other. Repros are ok. Most are awful but now and then somebody does something interesting and it prompts the OP to redo his shot. All good. All part of the learning curve. IMHO leave the "Etiquette" and all that stuff at home. Life is too short. :)

[JA]

Aside from creating a structure in which people can interact, etiquette is about making others comfortable and treating them with respect. In this way everyone feels free to speak, provide input or display their work .

We should always think about comments before we post them. If we think a comment might offend or be taken the wrong way, then perhaps the suggestion could be made privately. Like most things, moderation is important - It's a question of a balance between a free and frank discussion versus embarrassing and alienating others.

Best
JA

[glend]

Actually Marc were not "all doing the same thing here", in terms of our interpretation. That goes to the heart of the matter. .

[multiweb]

Absolutely. Being courteous is all about good manners and that's a given but I was just pointing out not to get too agro about critisism.

[alpal]

I am the person most guilty of posting small crops of pics
& explaining a possible improvement.
No one has told me off yet & I think most people appreciate me
taking my time to explain what I mean? -
at least I hope so?

I see so many pics with wonderful data & just a slight
adjustment can make such a difference to the final result.

cheers
Allan

[Slawomir]

If we really want to have a healthy and thriving forum for showcasing amateur astroimages, then we should also be respectful and sensible with our comments. If in doubt, it's best to restrain from making suggestions and instead focus on what's good about the image. Having said that, becoming capable of providing useful feedback does not happen overnight and requires a degree of wisdom/experience, so mistakes will be made.

EDIT: Allan, I know I have not posted any new images for a while, but from memory, you have never tweaked any of my images... :( ;)

[DJT]

Thanks for the comments on this. It's interesting to read the various points of view.

There's a huge amount of respect amongst people on this forum and feedback is generally very constructive

Allan, the trigger for this thread was indeed your post. Perhaps rather than posting small crops you repost the full image with your adjustments proposals but maybe contact the OP first to see if that's ok as your personal view of what might be an improvement could well differ from that of the people who posted the original? Whilst the small crop proves the point from a contrast detail point of view, the bigger picture represents what the OP intended when they processed the image.

Also, wondering if because the original image was HaLRGB, that might explain why the red was off over to the right and why the op left it like that? That's more a technical point, maybe someone can chime in on that?

Cheers

[alpal]

You're probably right,
It's just that by the time permission came along -
perhaps 2 days later I couldn't be bothered
going to all the trouble
of making a comparison picture.

I actually feel that taking a small crop out of a large picture
is not as bad as taking & altering someone's whole picture
plus the whole picture wouldn't fit inside the
200KByte guidelines at the original pixel scale.
I'd have to post it on Astrobin & give a link.
It's not my intention to adjust someone's whole picture
just to show my point.

As for the red.
It's unusual that the RGBs are not balanced.
The Red is all out by it self as a separate hump -
it looks strange & red takes over the picture
totally obliterating all the contrast.

Normally you go ctr L in Photoshop & move the LHS slider to just before the first hump -
leaving a tiny gap - in each colour channel.
The line along the bottom is just noise.
In this case the bottom line for red went half way across the screen.
That can't be right.

cheers
Allan

[RickS]

I wouldn't reprocess and post back publicly without asking first, but that's just me...



That's human nature. If you've built a relationship with someone by offering comments and help in the past then they'll be more inclined to reciprocate. The folks that get a lot of comments are typically the ones who actively comment on images by others. I try to comment if I have something helpful to say or if an image is especially good. I'm less likely to comment on images by folks that just lob in and post pictures but don't participate in the forum otherwise.



Most people wouldn't consider what was clearly intended as a helpful comment from a guy who has APODs coming out of his ears as bullying, Glen. It's nothing to do with some imaginary "imaging standard model". It's a simple matter of aesthetics. Many of us don't find images that are predominately green (or any other colour) attractive. If you do, that's fine, but don't be surprised if there are people who don't share your view.

Cheers,
Rick.

[Marke]

I know what your saying Rick but for an outsider it can come across as a bit of a boys club , its always been that way as long as I can remember though .
The reposting I agree with you should ask first Ive seen threads go completely sideways with repros .

[alocky]

Hi Rick - in defense of those of us who just drop pictures in and don't comment much on others, I would argue a significant portion of us don't feel we have a lot to add. I suppose there's definitely no harm in only posting praise, but it's the feedback from people like yourself that make this forum really worthwhile.
I'm always very grateful for the help I get on here, and although the finishing touches are a personal choice, I'd say the other 90% of the processing workflow would be pretty consistent across the guys who are really good at this.
Having said that, on the few images I've posted in here that have attracted positive feedback, it does feel nice to have the effort acknowledged, and I guess even the greats like to hear that too!
Cheers
Andrew.

[RickS]

Hi Andrew,

I meant folks that don't really engage with the forum at all apart from posting images. I certainly wouldn't put you in that category!

Cheers,
Rick.

[ChrisV]

"There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about".
I'd love comments on my images ...

[RickS]

Done ;)

[ChrisV]

That were quick. Thanks !!

[atalas]

Well,I think that a man has to do what a man has to do!

Having said that, I fail to see how you can be comfortable with editing another persons data without seeking permission.

It seems to me, that there should be no reason why you can't explain what you like about an image,or don't like If you feel the need.

If there's nothing fundamentally wrong with an image, then the rest is aesthetics which is very subjective and reserved for the artist to interpret as he see's fit.....whether one likes It or not....tough titty.

Do we really want a bunch of clones?

The feelings on this issue are not new and have been going on for many many years.

If your intention is to help people,you really should spend more time in the beginners imaging forum where you probably would provide much welcomed assistance I would think.

If your intentions are to boost your own persona and justify your ego so you can feel important I say FFFFFF offffffff:thumbsup:

Hope this clarifies my somewhat soft stand on this issue:lol:

[atalas]

Hey stop calling me folks Rick.....then again,Ive been called much worse:lol:

[RickS]

Didn't mean you either, Louie :) There are a bunch of people who swear by your PS tutorials. Nobody could accuse you of not contributing...

[DJT]

Well put but I think you maybe holding back a little..

[atalas]

:(.....ahhhh,I almost felt needed....:(can we pretend you meant me?:lol:

[atalas]

Yes yes.....I'm a softy:)as long as I don't listen to the voices in my head:help:

[multiweb]

I often thought about repro'ing your data Louie but it was too far gone. Didn't have the skillset to recover anything. Sorry. :scared3:

[SimmoW]

Some very good comments here!

Louie said it the best, I think in some cases ego has a large influence:

"If your intention is to help people,you really should spend more time in the beginners imaging forum where you probably would provide much welcomed assistance I would think.

If your intentions are to boost your own persona and justify your ego so you can feel important I say FFFFFF offffffff"

And as for lack of comments, yes here it seems to depend on who you click with and how often you interact with others. In my case it also depends on who you piss off, there's one higher profile imager here who now rarely comments on my images, very childish but really, who cares? Ah the 'net, don't ya love it!

[SimmoW]

Mods, is there a quote of the month award? I nominate this, a classic!

[atalas]

Ha!I told you meany times marc!!!use bloody masks....see you at the Three Swallows....shut up voices!I'm only ganna have a beer with a french toast...I mean mate.:lol:

[atalas]

Yes yes!I except responsability....you totaly pee me off Simon...do you really think I'm a high end imager?:love:...hey....there goes a dog with a fluffy tale:rundog:hehehe....back soon....

[DarkArts]

Context matters. I suppose it's a bit like your Mum cutting up your meat. When you're just starting out, it's appreciated. When you've brought your girlfriend home to meet the folks .... not so much. :)

[gregbradley]

Good post. I agree with this. I don't mind comments about my images as I sometimes get it really right but often I miss the obvious that is pointed out. Like a quality control point.

But there is the aspect of treating others like you would want to be treated. Very occasionally - rarely really, that does not occur but generally speaking I find the people here on IIS really nice people. Mostly they mean well.

Also you don't know the situation when someone posts and you have to put up with that. Someone had a rough day, just had a fight with their partner,
the cheque bounced, they've been drinking etc etc.

How people usually are is the key. If someone is routinely off then you expect them to act that way and its less annoying. You would be surprised if they were positive. If someone is a bit rough who is normally friendly you cut them some slack just like you would in real life.

There is always the ignore button as well!

Greg.

[glend]

Of course everyone means well - within the narrow context of what they see as the correct way to do things AP related, and therein lies the problem. My gripe is that certain methodology driven individuals have no respect for those that want to do things differently and they get frustrated by what they see that strays from their way of doing it. Different choices in histogram alignment and colour balance, or a lack of equivalent data values for channels than they might choose does not make an image wrong. And it is not their job to correct the contributor to align with their methodology, and thus produce a carbon copy of how they would do it. That might be welcome in the beginners imaging forum, where people are developing skills in the use of tools, but calling out experienced imagers time after time for non-adherance to their norm is not a simple mistake, but rather a calculated attack on a different viewpoint. You cannot just use an 'ignore' list to block these people, because other viewers are still going to read what they publish and they want to be noticed. If they were simply trying to be helpful a PM is enough, and that is easily ignored. Their intent (whether concious or not) is to drive out non-conformity, using an almost religious zealot approach in which they are the masters. And of course they don't recognise this, they are just trying to help they will say. The end effect is the same, conform or leave, is implied.

[PRejto]

I'm late noticing this thread. A year ago I posted a photo I'd worked on a long time. A certain person decided quite on his own to reprocess it without asking and posted the result with the comment "do you think this is better?" I was really put off and no, it wasn't better. It was just plain annoying. My personal opinion is that this should stop. I think it is rude.

This should not be taken to indicate that I will not accept criticism or suggestion. Far from it! I have learned a ton from people here and it is much appreciated. For me, however, this just crosses a line that ought to be respected.

Peter

[alpal]

Hi Peter,
that sounds like something I would write.
I can't find it but I did find this where I was discussing the good points of NASA FITS Liberator with you:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=126902


Anyway - I think I've annoyed enough people with my honest opinions.
I'll stop doing it & only comment if I absolutely 100% agree with
whatever the poster has done & make great praise.

cheers
Allan

[markas]

I spent many years contributing to an international Landscape Forum (FM), and there it was unthinkable that anyone would process another person's image without asking first - even then, highly unusual.

The finished image is an artwork, not just a bunch of data. For better or worse, the result is a personal statement.

Astro image processing is, however, complex and at times very difficult, so constructive help in the form of reprocessing the data accompanied by a description of what was done may be warranted.

But the key point remains:it is good etiquette to ask first.

Mark

[RB]

Mike Salway and Terry (mojo), the owners of IIS, have made it clear in the past that people do not have the right to just go ahead and re-process someone else's work and post it up without the express permission of the owner of the data.

This is not permitted and is an unwritten rule here.
The moderators have been asked to step in at times when this has happened.
I've even had to ban a certain individual, who, even after we asked him to stop, had taken it upon himself to continue to do so in the name of 'Science'.

It is akin to walking up to someone's gear on the observing field and taking an eyepiece to try out for yourself without asking their permission.

If anyone here belongs to any well established photography forum then you'd know that editing someone's work without their permission is expressly forbidden and could earn you a stern warning or a ban.

Also another thing mojo had asked me to keep an eye on is people posting images on here that are not their own.
This is not acceptable either, you need to post a link to the image instead and give reference to the source and/or author.
Posting an image via attachment that's not your own is not allowed.

Hope this clarifies some 'etiquette rules' here on IIS.

RB

[multiweb]

Actually I learned a lot from those when I first encountered them. So hats off to you Louie. :thumbsup:
PS: What's with the Greek subtitles though... or is it just my PC doing that? :shrug:

[sil]

DJT,

An interesting question and a lot of interesting responses. I see things differently to most people. I suffered a stroke 3 yrs ago, was half paralysed and spent 5 months learning to walk again though my left arm remains dead and useless with no hope of treatment in Australia. As I went through the health care system I encountered a wide variety of personality types all with the same struggles. Just like you expect in any real life situation, unlinke most situations where being lazy, or looking for shortcuts, or expecting others to do the task for you doesnt truely matter. When it comes to recovery from any brain injury it disappointed me to see people unwilling to participate in rehab exercises for their own benefit and would prefer to live from a wheelchair rather than walk again. Which is what my doctors and physios expected from me. Eff that!

So I can probably come off aggressive in my responses at times when I recognise someone too lazy to make the effort to try or learn and just expect to be handed a magic button to push to fix their images. The more you try, throw away ALL your assumptions, do the wrong thing anyway and it all adds up to experience and you learn how tiny changes can effect the outcome. Every waking second is a struggle for me and agonising pain, I can't use my good telescope anymore or do photography the way I like, I've had to adapt and find ways to get the results I want as best I can, which is still crap compared to most people but it's the best I can do at the moment. So i know its BS when people say they need tons of gear to do AP because they just don't. When you understand what is the problem with your images you should be able to find a way around the problem. If it takes a little extra time then so what? deal with it. Most of the whiners are using gear I would love to use and still their shots are crap compared to mine and mine aren't much good.

So yeah , if you post images to a forum, expect feedback, and deal with it. People expect you to listen to answers if you post a question. Sometimes people ask the wrong question, in time they hopefully understand why the question is wrong. None of us are perfect, and my point of view is astrophotography is mainly about the processing, which is time consuming and complex. There's no easy solution, just try things and try to comprehend what using X in program Y means in terms of your final image. Its typically a subjective process and I assume if you are doing research and need to make measurements from your images thats a whole other level too.

Also expect people to post reworked images too, maybe many do it because they dont understand either. But there are times it can show you original data contains a lot more good signal that can be teased out. Many posters dont provide much information on what they did to get the image in the first place so people dont have much to go on in providing a valuable answer and just go off the image. So dont just be disapointed by the responses if you didnt do enough to explain what you did and what aspect of your process you struggled with. Too many basically ask "I just bought the cheapest dslr I could find, Only took one photo, didn't try any turorials or read the manual: what button do i need to push on my camera to make my photo look like {insert any David Malin example shot here}". I dont expect everyone here to be highly inteligent and learners willing to actually learn I have tons of time for and try to provide as much guidance for them. I prefer to steer them on a path they can learn from themselves and explore their interest rather than a cold: "press this button, adjust setting to this" which doesnt allow for much self discovery. I know my answers wont be perfect or the same as everyone elses but I am confident they will provide a gain to the person asking, if they ignore my answer or others disagree thats fine, opinions and all that. A few have provided feedback that shows they are taking stuff on board and learning, which is great. All I can do to help is provide information as best I can from my own experiences and hope some of it helps someone.

[SimmoW]

Thanks for posting this RB, good to clarify and remind everyone of the rules that are needed to prevent such rude/insensitive posts. I forgot to say, a pm is all that's needed. I've had a few folks ask for my data to reprocess to see what they can achieve. I'm always interested in seeing other's results. But in a controlled, explainable way.

[RB]

Exactly Simmo.
If one has permission then by all means we're fine with that.

:thumbsup:

[Atmos]

But what about that old adage, "It is better to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission." :lol:

[Andy01]

My 2c worth - I wouldn't want my images reprocessed without permission either, but will gladly and happily take written constructive critique. :thumbsup:

In fact I've learned so much that I couldn't begin to name all those here on IIS who have in some way improved my imagemaking through comments.:)

Personally, warm fuzzy comments are nice to receive, but I probably learned more from sucking up the tough love so freely given :lol:

Having judged professional photography for the past 25 years, it's worth considering the Sh#t sandwich method when commenting. ie:

Say something nice
Say what what you really want to say
Finish with a positive - always with the intention of improvement

This method is less likely to create offence, and may in fact build rapport.
There's going to be many different personality types here, and sometimes the simple but necessary pleasantries are overlooked when punching that keyboard.

One of the best example of this is Placidus, whose critiques are always a balance of positives backed with hard science observations. :thumbsup:

[RB]

Doesn't pass muster with me, as the guy who thought it was ok to do so "in the name of science" found out the hard way.

We give a warning to the offender first though, if we see that it was genuinely done unknowingly (of the rules) but either way we don't allow it.

:)

[strongmanmike]

This has become quite an interesting thread huh? :thumbsup:

Like all forums, there are a lot of different personalities with different motivations and expectations and different posting styles contributing, so it is pretty easy to annoy people of differing types, quite unintentionally. Thing is, this is not always the fault of the poster though, as how a post is read can easily be the mood of the reader too....can all get quite misconstrued at times :scared: ...oh and then there are the emoticons, apparently they can be annoying too :lol: sorry :sadeyes:

While it doesn't particularly worry me and please, the following is said in a very light-hearted, this is not serious stuff, tone...the habit of repro'ing others images is a pretty funny one IMO. Sometimes it is kiiinda :question: helpful I guess..?...but mostly.. it just makes me laugh (sometimes out loud) as it nearly always makes the image worse :scared: :lol: or at best, presents an alternative, for an alternatives sake, which was really probably unnecessary :). It really makes me laugh when a clearly high quality image is posted and someone takes it upon themselves to reprocess and present an alternative version that, for various reasons, looks positively ghastly :lol: (now remember!! all that was said veeeery light heatedly :prey:) and I don't particularly mind if someone repros my image for some reason but if it was not asked for or relevant to a discussion...I may well laugh :lol: :P

As for the number of views and posts that an image gets, well, that is largely related to the activity of that imager on the forum and this shouldn't be taken as a result of a cliquey group or tall poppies keeping to themselves, it is simply a natural occurrence. Ie. if you post replies to lots of people and lots of images, then hey, you will generally get lots of posts back to your own images :). This shouldn't be taken in a bad way and annoy anyone. I regularly post my images to several other forums where I get very few responses, because I make very few responses, not because I don't care about that forum, I just don't have the time to make multiple responses to multiple forums, IIS is my favourite so most of my posting and replying is done here :2thumbs:

This should be a fun game we play, try and see around the negativity where possible and just participate at what ever level you wish :)

There is probably more to discuss that I have forgotten...like the use of emoticons :rofl:...but that'll do :D

Mike

[Atmos]

If it is the guy I think you're talking about, his "in the name of science" images looked like he was tripping on psychedelic shrooms.

[Paul Haese]

David (DJT),

I don't like the idea of a reprocess of an image posted on the site. I don't like to have someone do that with my images and I am sure many people don't like that idea either. At least it seems that way from the discussion here.

I have in the past employed the method that Andy described, but had one person tell me it was like getting a report from a school teacher. I had mistakenly thought that critique (what you like, what you don't and how to improve) raises the standard for Australian imagers but that is not what many want; they want attaboy and you're a star. It's not just here it is on every forum I am a member.

Mostly now I just say what I like with images I get to see.

[topheart]

I agree with not posting a reprocessing of someone's image unless requested to do so.
I believe that we should accept negative feedback with good grace and I strongly want any deficiencies in my images mentioned so that I can learn and improve. When you look at your own image for a long time, you can lose sight of things and not see obvious glitches....There are amazingly knowledgeable people here on this forum and I have learnt so much from the criticisms I have received..... It has been the best advice that I have had from anywhere. This is a very good astrophotography community of good people.
Cheers,
Tim