Decisions,decisions

[stellarquest]

Hi all,New member here. Own a WO80,66ED, and a GSO8".Thinking of buying either a 10"Meade Lightbridge or 12"GSO for about 6 per year visits to dark locations in a small car with small family.The scope will also get regular workouts in backyard.Regular collimation required with Lightbridge not an issue.Realise the Meade uses GSO optics anyhow. Want to keep the budget below the $1100, so 12" Meade out of equation.Thoughts anyone?????

[jase]

:welcome: Stellarquest.

I'm sure you find plenty of IIS members that will be able to assist you.

[janoskiss]

Hi SQ. Welcome aboard! You wont fit 12" GSO Dob + observing gear + family (no matter how small) into a small car, so I'd say go with the 10" Lightbridge. 10" Dobs (LB or solid tube) are a lot nicer & comfier to use anyway because they are a lot less bulky. There is not a big difference btw the 10 and 12" ito what you can see with them, but there is a big diff in bulk.

[rmcpb]

Welcome to IIS :)

If you want to keep your budget below $1100 and achieve a decent increase in aperture over the 8" then a 12" is the go. This will be a show stopper with the small car BUT if you are handy with tools and are patient then you could convert this to a truss scope yourself for little extra. If you go that way make sure you have a copy of Kriege and Berry and you should have no worries.

[janoskiss]

Sorry, I missed that you already have an 8" Dob. Then Rob is right, the 12" would be the next significant step up. You might need a trailer for the scope... or the family. :)

[stellarquest]

Well, thank you all for the welcome! The reason I joined is that you good folks out there just seemed like no BS types, who are also just into the hobby for the right reasons, and not simply to one up the next guy.Looks like I was right.Looks like the replies so far are divided, which is pretty much as expected. I did ask a tough question. Some interesting points have arisen from the responses. Janokiss, you mention that there is not a great deal in difference between what can be seen with them. Could you please elaborate on that comment? That could be a clincher. Does anyone out there have the exact diameter for the base of the GSO 12"?To Rob. Thanks for the input. The conversion work is unfortunately not something I would feel confident of doing. Am I now back to considering the Lightbridge?Thanks for the continued input.

[iceman]

Hi Stellarquest, :welcome: to IIS.

If you're prepared to wait, the 16" versions of the lightbridge and GSO will be coming out in the next 6 months - I think we'll see a flood of 2nd hand 8, 10 and 12" scopes on the buy/sell forum at good prices.

If you already have an 8", a step up to the 12" is definitely most recommended. There will be a difference between 8 and 10, but not as significant as the 8 to the 12. The 12" has some additional issues such as its size and weight, and longer cooldown time required because of the larger mirror, however the extra aperture and light gathering ability, and longer focal length, is (imo) worth the upgrade.

[stellarquest]

Hi Iceman,Thanks for the welcome. You have a point about the waiting. As it happens, a friend of mine has made a very generous offer on my 8 inch that I am thinking of accepting. Perhaps better to get what I can now because of you're astute observation. Looking at the dimension of the 12 inch is a scary proposition. It is one big piece.We were thinking of using the 8 inch as the mobile light bucket and keeping the 12 inch for home use, but that kind of goes against the whole original concept.The new GSO versions certainly seem a good substitute for the Meade, but at the moment simply for expediency I am looking at the 10 inchLightbridge.The 12 inch sounds great though........

[casstony]

Another point important to some is that you can do comfortable all seated observing with a 10", even at the zenith.

[ving]

iceman is right... if you can wait then early next year the GSO 16" truss is coming out. failing that it comes down to shatever you cn fit in your car. if you can fit the 12"er and whatever else you need to take then teh extra aperture is the way to go. if not then the 10"

oh and welcome abaord :hi:
:)

[janoskiss]

I guess you have to look and decide for yourself. There is definitely a difference, especially on faint objects, but also in terms of resolution when seeing is good and the heavy mirror finally cooled off, but it is a fairly subtle difference. Many newbies would not pick it or only after being told what to look for. OTOH the difference in the size is huge.

I have the 8 and 12" GSO Dobs, and I'm seriously considering selling them both and getting a 10". The main thing stopping me (apart from laziness) is that I love my 8" being so small, light and grab-n-go, and I'm not sure the 10" could fill the same role.


Yes, IMO this is a big plus in favour of the 10". The 12" is too tall for sitting, too short for standing. You can use a tall stool but nothing really works well.

Larger scopes, like 16+ inch Dobs, are a different kettle of fish altogether.

[ACE]

On this query, would a 12" lightbridge be a wrong choice for a 1st scope. Would I be better with a 10" tube dob? I like the idea of being able to collapse a scope put it in the car and goto dark skies with friends etc.

Thoughts appreciated.:)

[stellarquest]

Have come very close to deciding on the 10 Lightbridge for a number of reasons. The point about being seated is a very good one. Janoskiss" comments about selling off the 8 and 12 for a 10 hint at hard won experience. I am selling my 8 regardless.Hi Ace. Even though I have been vexed by the 10 vs 12 decision, I have been an amateur astronomer for about 17 years now, so I will add my five cents worth. The 12 is big. Very big. Even the Lightbridge. Collimation will need to be performed much more often on the Light than a standard Dob.My personal opinion, buy a 10 Light, and spend the remaining $400 plus on some quality eyepieces, barlow etc. Maybe I have just convinced myself here.

[stellarquest]

Just a couple of additional comments. Ace, I have taken my 8 in my car a few times, and a solid tube Dob, even an 8, takes up a lot of room. One other thing, getting people in will mean that you place the tube lenghtwise with the car, with one half of the seat folded down. Putting the scope in and out of the car will result in dings. It just will. I have seen others do this.This is one of the major advantages of the Lightbridge. This type of portability will greatly reduce the chance of damage.Truss Dobs just make sense for anyone taking a scope for a drive. Also, for cleaning etc, the Lightbridge breaks down into manageable sections (stating the obvious here), but that means you can put a towel on the dining room table and work on each unit comfortably and safely. Just try doing that with a solid 12. Whatever you decide Ace, do buy yourself a quality laser collimater.

[janoskiss]

At this point I should probably stress that you should try the scopes for yourself to see what suits you best rather than just go on my or someone else's subjective preferences. There are plenty of happy 12" Dob owners who would not give up the extra aperture for anything. Best to go along to a viewing night and spend some time with different scopes.

[stellarquest]

The perfect advice Janoskiss, and I am doing just that tomorrow evening. I will have the opportunity to try out both a 10 and 12 Lightbridge side by side. An incredible opportunity and one I am very thankful for. Thank you Matt and Rory. There will also be an Obsession 16 there, just as something to dream about. I will keep you all updated with my findings.

[norm]

Great thread Stellarquest. Would be interested in the outcome. I don't have a scope atm, nor am I in a hurry to get one. Fortunately I get to peek at others at my local club to quench my thirst.

I like the idea that I could breakdown a 12 Lightbridge and take it on trips WITH the family. That said, it would be impossible 2 do so with a normal 10" dob.

I'd be interested to know if there is more care required with the 12" lightbridge in terms of handling or whether its a fairly robust scope.

I just can't decide! :shrug: :shrug: :doh: :doh: :doh:

[stellarquest]

Hi Norm,Thank you, had no idea the thread would have as much interest as it had. Great open forum developing. Just as it should be.I will be taking my 8" tomorrow night too, so it will be a real shoot out. Can't wait. The guys have given me permission to load the scopes (except the Obsession) into my trunk as an excercise, so that will be the clincher probably. They have told me I can lift the Lightbridges around by the trusses, so again a very good test. Will be interested to see if they hold collimation.

[astronut]

Hi Everyone,
Just my 2 cents, the 12"LB in its many parts is not heavy, well maybe the tube holding the mirror is just a bit weighty, but still light enough for Mr Puniverse to carry!:lol:
Yes the LB's can be lifted safely by the trusses. Collimation holds very well even after an hour in my car, and a 4km trip over a dirt road.
It usually only needs a couple of tweaks of the primary knobs to achieve collimation.
I have a Laser and if I didn't take all my other astro stuff, I could comfortably carry the LB in the back and take up only one side of the back seat and the boot area.
Have a look at the Nov AS&T check out the 10" & 12" LB in the back of the authors small to medium hatchback.
As he says many people take the 10" for an 8" and the 12" for a 10", their appearances are that deceptive.
I'm 1.78m (5' 10") tall and with my adjustable chair I can sit comfortably with the scope at the zenith. Also with the scope at vertical and me standing, the e/p only comes up to my chin.:D
A friend of mine has the G.S.O. full tube 12", optically it is the same scope, but he has quite a time trying to manhandle it, that is the main difference between the two.

[Tamtarn]

We agree with your comments John

We have a 12" GSO. I'm 5'4" and have no problem at all sitting on our Stellar adjustable chair at the second highest position with the scope at zenith and when I'm standing the focuser is just below my nose when the scope is at zenith so I have no problem looking through the EP at this level. David is 5'10" and he finds it OK as well.

Stellarquest we would suggest your main consideration is the room in your car for the scope the base your gear and the family.

If a 12" fits then go for it :thumbsup: It will be a long time before the need to upgrade to a larger aperture later on.... if ever :)

[stellarquest]

Hi all,Well, what a night. The decision has been made. Due to the impending sale of the 8, the 12LB is on the buying list now.Last night had a chance to line up my 8, a 10LB,a12LB,and an Obsession 16.Good seeing, using the 26mm supplied with the LBs, a Meade 6.4mm, and a Celestron 20mm.Below are just my personal thoughts. Please rmember this. In no particular order, these were my jotted down notes.1.The 12LB is still a 12, and matter how small it may look due to great advertising, it still houses 12 optics. Trusses help with this illusion.2. The 10 was the easiest to move around and load in my car. Everyone agrred on this.3.The 8 to 10 aperture difference was very noticable, the jump from 10 to 12 much less so.4.We all noticed a slight feeling of "give" in the trusses when moving the 12 only. The 10 was rock rigid.5.Cooling down time with the 10 and it's fan was much less than my 8, but the 12 still took quite a while to cool.6.The 12 need more regular collimation. (Truss flex??)7.The 26mm is an awesome EP.8.Moving the 10 was incredibly easy. Much easier than my 8 even though it weighs more.The 12 owner is seriously considering selling his 12 after using the 10 a lot more than he would care to admit.9.The 10 would make a perfect serious beginners scope. Buy a Laser collimator.11.The Obsession is in a class of it's own!.ConclusionI am buying the 10. It is a perfect allrounder, and in combination with my WO 66 and 80mm, 95% of observing desires will be taken care of. Why a 66 and 80? It is a great father/son combo.These are my thoughts. Please remember this. Oh yes, I am no Mr. Punyverse, so stature is not an issue.One last point. Could sit down at the 10 all night, not so with the others in much comfort.Hope this helps anyone else, it sure helped me.

[janoskiss]

Thanks for filling us in. Sounds like you have made a well thought out and informed decision. :thumbsup:

Although you still sound a little confused:


Seems you've changed your mind half way through your post. :lol:

I'll have to check out those 10 and 12" lightbridges myself.

[stellarquest]

Hi Janoskiss, Yes I just noticed that myself. What I meant to convey was the fact that I could have bought either the 10 or 12,after the sale of the 8.Still trying to get the hang of this!

[danny]

A lot of talk abut the LB12, apature and portability is what plays on my mind, chasing those faint fuzzies can't be achived from my backyard.

[stellarquest]

The equipment you already have I imagine is a little on the awkward side to set up/take down. You would definately notice the difference with owning a truss Dob in that department. The 12 is a fine instrument, but please give the 10 a chance. Such rapid cool down time, ease of handling, and plenty of aperture with great contrast were what led me to decide on the 10. On the test night, the 10 was the first scope of the four present to cool down, and the one that three of us always seemed to return to. On a scale of one to ten, I would rate the 12 as 8, and the 10 at, you guessed it,10. The ability of the 10 to handle seeing conditions better was also evident. Great allrounder.

[norm]

Hi Stellarquest,
Good comments:


This could be due to the original springs on the primary. I remember Astronut writing a thread of after market mods and this was one of them.

A couple of queries:
Were there any shrouds used?
When you say the 12 took longer to cool down - rough timeframe 15mins - 45mins?
The white parts inside the truss dob (as per the AS & T) article, did you notice anything about it much when viewing.

Cheers, Norm

[stellarquest]

Hi Norm,
I did notice on the 12 that when you tried to lock the primary, collimation would shift, and by slightly varying margins! This was quite annoying, and totally absent on the 10. I did not think of the springs. I will call the owner and let him know of you're suggestion. Thankyou!.
As for shrouds, yes. On all the truss dobs. Made of a stretchy black fabric, don't ask me what though, and with stud clips. I think 5. I do remember thinking that the shrouds interfered with holding the trusses when moving the scopes, but it simple to just slide the shroud up enough. I also remember thinking that perhaps a way around this would be to select the truss you will handle the most and make the shroud go around the scope until it meets back at the selected truss, but then have something like velcro loops that will allow you to slide past the shrouds meeting line to hold the truss. Sorry, I know my description is clear as mud. Just don't know how to describe it.
I did not write down the cooling times, a bad mistake in retrospect. I think that by 30 mins we were well and truley engrossed with the 10, so probably around the 45 minute mark would be my best guess.
The White was more noticeable in the 12 than the 10. Nothing to write home about in either.
The LB's are really beautiful scopes to look at. Meade have created a real winner here.
I wish I could repeat the night and make much more detailed notes!.
Another thought. To really finish off the scope, I will be mounting an Orion 9x50 finder with the right angle in addition to the great illumiation finder. I just want the luxury of both. When using higher magnifications, which the 10 handles best, the options of both fields of view for finding will be nice. And I can afford not only this, but also the Oxygen3 filter, and a new Ep for the same money as the 12LB on it's own. Don't get me wrong, the 12 is great, but just my preference for the 10 here.
Sorry Norm, I hope this helps a little. If you think of anything else please let me know and I will do my best.
Cheers,
Stellarquest

[ving]

stronger springs inthe 12" would fix the movement :)

nice comparision :)

[stellarquest]

Thanks Ving,
Will mention that in my call to the owner as well. He will be very glad to know the remedy. Unfortunate that there should be such a problem in such a nice scope. Especially when this seems like something that could be easily taken care of at the factory.
Thanks for the compliment. I am very new to internet correspondence, so please bear with me, and I promise to write a decent review on the 10 when it comes in mid to late January. They are selling fast!

[janoskiss]

yes, the 12s all have saggy springs - solid tube or LB. I use my six collimation screws (3 adj + 3 lock) in a push pull arrangement, no spring. More tedious but once you get used to it it's workable and hold collimation very well.

[Baron von Richthofen]

Hi
I see you have a WO66, and a WO80, what do you use them for?
Vars

[stellarquest]

Hi Vars,Just use them in our backyard for Planets and other brighter targets such as Fornax and Orion etc. Superb optics. I prefer the 66ED as I feel it is a little more contrasty than the 80ED. They are both weighty though. The 66 OTA w/ a 1.25 diag and Ep weighs in at 2kg's. The 80 is mounted on an EQ5 because it needs it. It is very substantial.If weight is an issue have you tried Hutech? They seem a little fragile to me, but the versatility seems fantastic and could fit the bill.The WO's are heirloom quality and are quite cheap at the moment. Have you seen the Petzval for $400 AUD? What a bargain.If you have any question please do not hesitate to post.Cheers,Stellarquest

[stellarquest]

PUBLIC APOLOGY.After re-reading the term of use for this Forum, I have become aware of a potential problem with one of my posts. It is post number 21. The miss-spells are in point4 raised and take the appearance of "& quote".This was not tended as a substitute for any other word, sentence, or sentiment. It is a reflection on my ineptitude to properly use the excellent messaging tools provided. Please accept my apologies for any ill feeling caused. None whatsoever was or is intended.Thank you all.Regards,Stellarquest

[astronut]

Hi Stellarquest,
I've had my 12"LB since March, and through neccessity and being very inquisitive, I've crawlled inside and out of this scope and with the advice of a very close friend and telescope builder I have the carried out the mods needed to turn a very good scope into a excellent one.
If you would like info on what needs to be done, please let me know.
These mods are good for all the LB's. even the up coming 16" which I see still suffers from the problems of its smaller brothers.
The reason the 12" suffers more from spring sag than the smaller ones is, 1. Mirror Weight, 2. The same springs are used on all the scopes, so they work well on the 8", ok on the 10" but bomb out on the 12".
You can just imagine how much sag the 16" mirror will have.:eyepop:

[stellarquest]

Hi Astronut,I would really appreciate you're insight. The Meade 12 appeared to me to be a brilliant base from which to build, while the 10 seemed to be a fully finished product. I am sure that everyone who has been following this thread would be very interested in you're findings too.Thank you for attaching the thumbnails. These will be a great aid to understanding further what you have achieved. Can see what you mean about the weight of the various mirrors. Why Meade would use the same springs for different loads is a mystery.Look forward to you're post.Cheers,Stellarquest

[ving]

i have seen his scope in action... its good SQ :)

[ausastronomer]

Hi Stellarquest,

I agree with Steve. I personally don't see a need to own both 8" and 10" scopes or 8" and 12" for that matter.

I would recommend selling the 8", you mention you have a good offer on it and buying a 10" lightbridge.

Whilst a 10" won't go quite as deep on DSO's as the 12", it is a lot more portable and user friendly IMO. The 10" will "almost" equal the 12" for lunar/planetary/double star work and importantly, will be less affected by poor seeing for high power work than the 12" scope.

IMO if your going to keep the 8" scope as your "portable" scope, the step up needs to be to about 14" or 15", to get a really noticeable increase.

CS-John B

[stellarquest]

Hi Ausastronomer,All that you have suggested is exactly what will happen and precisely what I found out on the testing night. The 10 was the best allrounder on the evening. The 8 goes next week. The seeing between the 10 and 12 was more of a difference than anyone present had imagined. As it will be very much an allrounder scope, the planetary use does come into consideration. Also much longer cooling time on the 12. I rang the owner of the 12 to tell him of the spring solution from the the members of the Forum, and while he was greateful, he was quite upset at the performance differences 10vs12. He is definately considering selling his 12 and buying the 10. When Astronut places his modifications on the thread, I will be following them to create my own LB 10 superscope.The Obsession, even though in a league of it's own, was a hassle to use in just about every way, and cured me permanently of any future aperture fever. Stunning vistas, but so they should be for the money. The set up was not as easy as the LB's, as one should realise. The amazing thing was, it got the least use of any scope there, including the 8. Go figure. I am most likely missing the point though...Cheers,Stellarquest

[astronut]

There are a couple of changes I would make as soon as practicable.
1. The primary springs are too soft, this will make collimation tedious. I have the product code for these.
2. Change both the secondary and primary collimation knobs, this makes collimation toolless, a big improvement. Once you try to collimate with the originals you'll know what I mean.
3. Have the end rings powder coated black, as all four are WHITE on the INSIDE not good.
A shroud is another essential addition.
One last thing, a dew shield extending about 1.5x the aperture from the front of the tube will eliminate dew on the secondary.
The optics give great views, oooppps!!! One last thing a Orion or similar brand collimator.
The springs are $30
Collimation Knobs, both sets $50.
Powder coat X4 $40.
Shroud $90.
Dew shield $20 High Impact Polystyrene Sheet, H.I.P.S.
Collimator $70 absolutely necessary.
I would also highly recommend a dew heater for the main e/p and both ends of the finder.
With the dew/light shield a secondary heater is unnecessary.
Cheers, John:)

[stellarquest]

This is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Thank you. We did find the collimation at the site a real hassle, as all the scopes present were stock standard. I am not sure if it is allowed to post suppliers of you're parts stockists, but if it is possible would you please?Have seen the ad for Bobs Knobs and liked them.I believe Meade is manufacturing their own brand Shroud. Even though I usually use a Cheshire, I am upgrading to a Laser collimator, for obvious reasons.Thanks for the post John.Cheers for now.

[astronut]

Hi Stellarquest,
I bought my collimation knobs from www.Astronomy-Shoppe.com (http://www.Astronomy-Shoppe.com) Tony Costanzo is a nice fellow to deal with.
You can also purchase the knobs from www.Bob'sKnobs.com (http://www.Bob'sKnobs.com)
I bought the shroud from Astrozap, it works very well with a draw string at each end. With a wide plastic band at each end it holds the shroud out of the lightpath.
The springs are from centuryspring their code number is S-436.
After you exchange the springs, it is unneccessary to use the locking pins.
As a matter of fact I would use these springs on the 8" and 10". The locking pins turn a simple task into a nightmare, so ditch them.
Keep using the chesire, the lazer is just a gimmick to make you spend more money. I've carried out a high magnification collimation check and the chesire is always spot on.
I hope this helps, if you need further info, please let me know.:) John.

[ausastronomer]

Hi,

You can buy a full collimation upgrade kit from Tony Costanzo

www.astronomy-shoppe.com

Tony is a sponsor of Cloudy Nights. www.cloudynights.com

Click on "Dob Kits" then scroll down to "Meade Rescue Kits"

The one you need is the 3rd one down under Meade Rescue Kits and it is called "Recue Kit #1". It costs $US44.95 for everything excluding postage. This kit includes the thumbscrews for the secondary holder, the larger springs and the collimation knobs for the primary. I recently purchased this kit for my 10" GSO dob. The total cost to me was $AUS 83 which included shipping and conversion to $AUS. The kit is excellent and well worth the money IMO. All componenets are high quality. These Meade upgrade kits will fit all 8",10" and 12" GSO dobs as well as the Meade Lightbridge scopes. The threads are the same (4mm x 0.7mm on the secondary holder and 7mm x 1.0mm on the primary cell).

If you want the azimuth knob get #4. I just bought a plastic knob from Bunnings for about $3 and it works very well.

CS-John B

[stellarquest]

Hi guys,Thank you both for the excellent information. I will be definately be buying the kit and using it on the 10. I will also tell both my mates about it. Maybe we will put together a decent size order and save some money on the postage as well!! Took a quick look at the shop site and it is going in my favourites folder. Will keep to the Cheshire. I was brought up with it.Have always thought of Cloudynights at a must have quality site. So professional yet still so focussed on telling what you need to know, instead of some company trying to tell us what they want us to know.Will be starting up another thread, probably this evening, that should have everyone thinking. Of course I will still keep a close watch on this thread, so if anyone else has any input, please feel free.Thanks to everyone so far for the support.Cheers,Stellarquest