Considering a dedicated AP Camera over DSLR

[LostInSp_ce]

Hi all, I need to pick some of your brains again. Currently I'm using a DSLR (Canon 70D) and I love it. No complaints really apart from perhaps the increased noise levels with stacked subs from summer sessions. All of my pics are taken from my light polluted backyard and not a dark site. I use a basic light pollution filter which does a good enough job I think, however now I feel that it's time to perhaps move over to a dedicated AP camera with filters and all the other little bits and pieces that may be needed for a humble but sound setup. This one has caught my interest.

https://astronomy-imaging-camera.com/products/asi-cooled-cameras/asi1600mm-c-mini-kit/
https://astronomy-imaging-camera.com/products/asi-cooled-cameras/asi1600mm-kit/

My questions are:
1. Would this be an upgrade or sidegrade from my DSLR setup?
2. Are these package deals any good or should I just get the camera and purchase the wheel/filters separate?
3. Do better options exist out there within this price range?

My main reasons for considering this camera are:
1. Within my budget (may stretch a little depending on options).
2. Has cooling.
3. It's mono.
4. Can be used for both DSO and planetary (although planetary isn't too important but nice to have).
5. Lots of other people seem happy with it.

I'm a little lost when it comes to AP cameras and setups so please be gentle.

[Merlin66]

Hmmm
Start at the beginning...
What telescope and mounting do you currently have???

[glend]

Assuming you have been taking astro photos with your DSLR, and you have some kind of EQ mount that can track, get the ASI1600. It will perform well with short subs in light polluted environments, very low noise. Good narrowband camera as well, for later on.

[LostInSp_ce]

Sorry Merlin I probably should have provided some more details. I'm currently running off of a NEQ6 Pro, 130mm APO triplet with a Canon 70D guided by a QHY 5L-II Mono. All controlled by the ASCOM platform and running the following software: EQMOD, Stallerium, PHD and APT. Possibly looking at moving onto Maxim DL down the track but for now I just need to take baby steps and concentrate on one thing at a time.

[LostInSp_ce]

Yes I have Glend and like I said I am quite happy with it. I'm not considering moving away from DSLR because I'm not happy. I'm moving away because I feel like I'm beginning to outgrow my current setup. I'm sure that even if I get an AP camera I may still find my way going back and forth between the two.

[skysurfer]

A dedicated camera is WAY more hassle when you are used to a DSLR. You have to provide image storage, power supply as the camera is really dumb and does not have a memory card and battery in it. So you need a computer at your setup. There are no iOS or Android apps for these cameras, unlike for DSLR, which you can easily control and view its photos by a tablet or smartphone.

You can better upgrade to a full frame body and the 6D is the best option as it is reasonably affordable (A$2000 body) And buy one or two extra batteries with it ($120 each). It has less noise and dark current than the 70d.

[Camelopardalis]

ASI1600 mono is a great choice :thumbsup:

It's a big step up from your DSLR performance wise and using APT is no more complicated to use than your Canon - you just need to factor in the filter wheel and filters and setup your imaging plans in APT according.

I also use a Canon 6D and in the Queensland summer the 1600 leaves it for dead. FOV is nothing when it's full of thermal noise.

[LostInSp_ce]

Thanks Skysurfer. I should have mentioned that I already run things from a remote setup on a computer. I don't mind hassles at the beginning provided that in the end they are worth it. I have considered the 6D but I'm wondering if it'll be more of a sidegrade than an upgrade for astrophotography. I also understand that I will need filters and probably some other bits and pieces with a dedicated AP camera but to be honest I don't mind tinkering with things if they're worth it.

[LostInSp_ce]

Camelopardalis, I did post some links with packages that I'm considering and would like to know if they are any good or should I just get the camera and search for a different wheel/filter kit?

[Camelopardalis]

I have no experience of other electronic filter wheels but the ZWO just works. If you're interested in narrowband - and living in the city, I would be - then get the 8 slot.

The only thing I don't like about the ZWO filters themselves is that the OIII band only seems to be covered by the green filter and little by the blue, which is different from other deep sky filters. This means that the expected turquoise ends up mostly green. Aesthetic only of course, but personal taste and all that.

[LostInSp_ce]

I would like to do narrowband later on but not until I actually understand what I'm doing with an AP camera. I'm guessing that the green colour is something that can easily be corrected in post? If not, could you just use a different brand filter for that wavelength or is mixing brands not a good idea?

[traveller]

Base on your equipment profile, I'd say you are ready for the ASI16000mm-c kit with LRGB and NB filter set. (I am in a similar situation at the moment)
Assume you are getting good guiding already of course. Will you be shooting at home or somewhere where there is mains power? TEC cooled camera can draw a bit of current, depending on ambient temp, so you need to bear that in mind.
The other program I have been researching is Sequence Generator Pro, which a lot of members here use, a bit cheaper but seem to be fully functional. There is a free 30 day trial version as well.
Hope that helps.
Bo

[Camelopardalis]

Yes, it's correctable to a certain extent. I worked for me with the Tarantula but not for the Helix. I probably did something wrong.

My eyes are set on a different filter set where blue and green filters overlap the OIII band.

Narrowband is just what it says...narrower pass bands than either RGB filters or visual filters. There's no black magic involved...it just allows us to hone in on certain emissions, especially from the city. It's not a bad idea to wait it out and get to grips with it first, as narrow band filters can be pricey, but equip yourself with the slots in the EFW to save having to change or supplement it later (this is my ONLY regret with the ZWO 1600 setup, but I bought mine before the 8-position EFW was available)

[Atmos]

Between those two I'd definitely go the 8-positon over the 5-position. When you eventually go down the narrowband path, you don't want the headache of having the change filters from the filter wheel.

As for MaximDL, it depends on what you're wanting to do. In many ways I do prefer MaximDL over Sequence Gen Pro BUT if you are wanting to quite easily be able to set up automated sequences, SGP is much easier. MaximDL either requires you to get other software to do the controlling for you or you learn scripting.

[LostInSp_ce]

Thanks guys I was thinking the same thing regarding the filter wheel. The old 'buy once not twice' philosophy would be the better way to go.

traveller my guiding isn't perfect but it's more of a ball than an egg. I tend to get low long waves (sine like) as opposed to high short spikes (sawtooth like) when guiding. I do have an EQ6 wedge on the way that I'm hoping will help fine tune polar alignment (my fingers are shot from the stock bolts). If I do decide to get the camera I'll download the trial and see how I go. With the extra work added by filters, it would be nice to be able to streamline elsewhere (reason why I was looking at Maxim DL). However, SGP might be the answer.

[traveller]

Is there a 8 position FW Colin? I thought they came in 5 or 7's only?
Bo

[LostInSp_ce]

It's an eight hole filter traveller, here's the link.
https://astronomy-imaging-camera.com/products/filterfilter-wheel/zwo-efw-8-x-1-25%E2%80%B3or-7-x-36mm/

Four for LRGB, maybe use three for Narrowbands then one for something else I'm not sure what but hopefully someone can tell us.

[traveller]

Of course, 8x1.25" OR 7x36mm...
I am still inclined for the 7x36mm version, in case I get my 10" f4 going.... :D

[Merlin66]

The extra filter space is designed for the mounting of a transmission grating (SA200 seems to be the favourite)
You can then practise some real science with your existing set up ;-)

[traveller]

Good point!

[Atmos]

There are four narrow bands if you go with the 3nm versions. NII and Ha both fall into the 5nm Ha filter but a 3nm Ha separates the NII signal out.

[LostInSp_ce]

Haha Merlin, I think that I'm a long way away from doing any real science but thanks for the info. Now I just have to consider if I get it now or wait until after the winter.

[LostInSp_ce]

Interesting, do you know if the Astrodon 1.25in or 36mm filters would be compatible with the ZWO EFWs and ASI1600MMC camera? I'm thinking about purchasing the Astrodon's LRGB set but I don't want to risk buying these expensive filters if there's going to be compatibility issues.

[uwahl]

Modern cmos cameras such as Nikon, Canon etc are OK for astrophotography. Where dedicated CCD ccd cameras and filters excel is for scientific work such as photometry. If you want to get into this sort of work dedicated cameras are worth it. Agree with others that 8 position filter wheels are the way to go. I have a QSI camera with an 8 position wheel. With Ha, O, S and Luminescence filters and photometric filters, it leaves no room for the more traditional RGB. Would love a 12 position filter wheel !!!

[LostInSp_ce]

Well I'd like to do some narrowband imaging down the line. My main reason for considering a dedicated AP camera is that I jut feel like I have outgrown my DSLR. Perhaps modifying it could be an option, but then wouldn't it just be better to get a dedicated AP camera? I understand the extra work involved in capturing and processing individual wavelengths but I am in this for the long haul or at least until the CFO decommissions the funds. :lol:

[JA]

I suppose it's a question of; how close is close enough? How close to a dedicated camera does a DSLR have to be, in terms of image quality, to stick with the DSLR, rather than use the dedicated AP camera?

In using the DSLR there are many advantages: portability, use without computer if desired, use with computer if desired, built in monitor, ease of focus/live view 10x.., histogram, one shot colour simplicity, less time processing VS say R+G+B, large high resolution sensors, in camera storage/backup, flexibility, use of photographic lenses, typically lower cost even for same sensor, etc.

There is also loads of untapped potential in the equipment for anyone willing to modify their DSLRs to add cooling & temperature regulation to increase the signal to noise ratio and/or delete/replace the UV/IR filter for greater bandwidth. To me that's also part of the challenge of this endeavour.

Of course the downfall of the DSLR some will say is the Bayer filter array, but with Full frame and high resolution sensors the margin closes with often lower resolution FF sensors in dedicated AP cameras, although the AP cameras usually have an advantage with Quantum Efficiency and sometimes (not always) large well depths/Saturation and often 16bit vs 14 bit A/D conversion. Once pixel shift technologies in DSLRs / Cameras are perfected further we may see the full colour info at every pixel. We have that now, but movement between pixel shift is something of an issue and requires tripod only shots, for now. Of course if you want monochrome for narrowband, then a dedicated AP cam is really the only option, except for an overpriced Leica M.

Everything's a compromise, but I feel that location, seeing conditions, optimum equipment settings & techniques , optical quality & aperture will do far more to get you a better image than simply dedicated AP cam versus DSLR.

Food for thought - Should I put my flame suit on?

Best
JA

[LostInSp_ce]

Thanks JA. I understand that these factors are far more important than the camera when it comes to producing good results and I have made some minor upgrades to my humble setup to help improve within these areas. I feel like I'm at the crossroads with the imaging technology. I see it a bit like going from a compact camera to DSLR. You can take amazing pictures using both but one does allow you more control over what you are doing. For some maybe the cost or extra work involved in switching to DSLR from a compact wasn't what they hoped it would be and as a result to them not worth it.

I'm sure that many in here have at some point in time been in this exact situation where I am now, thinking the same thing I am. I really appreciate all of the advice that has been given but another thing I would really like to know for those who did it. Did going from DSLR to a dedicated AP camera take your imaging to another level or was it just a different way to image?

I don't wan't this to turn into a flame thread either.

[raymo]

This question is a little difficult to answer. People with perseverance, great
talent, and dark skies, have produced superb images with DSLRs.[Try and find some of Sarah Wager's DSLR images of some years ago]. For the rest of us,
there should be a distinct step up in quality.[ I'm not saying that you are one of the rest of us, who knows, you may be the next imaging maestro.]
raymo

[LostInSp_ce]

This made me chuckle.

I'm no imaging maestro, very far from it but I do enjoy imaging and viewing. Thanks for the Sarah Wager reference I visited her site. Her work is amazing along with some great info on the progression of her setup over the years.